Official VEKN Nosferatu Newsletter for October, 2002
Peter D Bakija
First off, a cheap plug for the 4th Annual Jyhad Orgy of Mystery!
This, the premier Central New York VTES event of the season, takes place
Friday, Oct 25th at 7:00pm in Goldwin Smith Hall, Cornell University,
Ithaca, NY. For the 4th year running, we will all duke it out to gain
control of the coveted Evil Vampire Barbie statue. What is the format? That
is the mystery! Just bring lots of decks that work under the standard VTES
tournament rules, and you'll do just fine. There might be a small entry fee
if I can get some boosters for a round of draft or something. If you live
anywhere near Ithaca, this is a worthwhile gathering to make it to.
So anyway, on to our show.
With the new Camarilla expansion, the Nosferatu have good selection of cool
new vampires to work with. They aren't all strictly just better than
previous Nosferatu, although some are (certainly in the 5-7 point range,
where most of our previous minions kind of blew chunks), and as a whole,
there is a good selection of solid new vampires to work with.
Mouse (2) ani: **** Mouse is a perfectly standard 2 point vampire with a
single in clan discipline. Nothing real exciting. The Neo-Nosferatu seem to
have a good selection of animalism vampires available to them, meaning that
animalism based decks are certainly a possibility. Mouse is just fine, but
he is no KoKo.
Krid (2) obf: **** Krid is simply Dimple. Just as useful. Just as small.
Darva Felispa (3) ani, pot: *** She's no Duck. Combined with Raziya and
Tommy, however, she can form the backbone of the Pot/Ani rush deck (using
Drawing out the Beast to nullify maneuvers and Song of Serenity to avoid
some damage), but I still think the vampire selection for a Pot/Ani deck is
generally less effective than for a Pot/Obf deck (due, primarily, to Agatha
and Olivia who are fantastic for the Pot/Obf deck, and the Pot/Ani deck
doesn't really have comparable vampires). But not completely a bad idea.
Wolfgang (4) pot, obf, for: ** (for general utility) or **** (for being a
small vampire with a common and possibly useful discipline combo). For sheer
utility in a generic Nosferatu deck, he is less effective than either Sammy
or Agripina, but for a Pot/Obf/For deck, he is clearly the man. Combine him
with the many Neo-Nosferatu with Fortitude and do something cool. Maybe a
Pot/For/Obf stealth rush deck, or something using Freak Drives, and he'll
rock.
Amelia, The Blood Red Tears (5) POT, obf, ani. After combat with Amelia, the
opposing minion burns one blood or life. ***** Amelia is the vampire that
the Nosferatu always needed, and the one that makes me sad that it isn't
really worth it to turn my Rush deck into a Tier 2/3 deck. A 5 pointer with
POT is huge, and then she has both useful back up disciplines. She'll go in
a Neo Pot/Obf Rush deck. She'll go in a Neo Pot/Ani deck (with Darva,
Raziya, Tommy, and Nigel). She is very solid. Sure, her special ability
isn't fantastic (it seems likely that anyone facing her in combat is going
to be at zero blood at the end of combat anyway), but in a pinch, certainly
not bad.
Gemini (5) OBF, pot, ani, obt. During your untap phase, if Gemini is ready,
you may move a blood from a vampire in your prey's uncontrolled region to
his or her pool. *** Gemini is perfectly solid with a goofy, if not totally
useful special ability. She blows a point of skills on inferior
obtenebration (team her up with Josep for the Obf/Obt deck!), but she really
isn't any worse than Grendel, although not necessarily better either.
Gerard Rafin (6) POT, OBF, ani, for. During your untap phase, if Gerard is
ready, you may look at one card at random from your prey's hand. *****
Gerard is a very solid mid range vampire for the Neo-Nosferatu (that our old
minions lacked mostly), fitting in nicely with any Pot/For type combat deck.
POT/OBF means he'll add to a Pot/Obf type deck. Team him up with Wolfgang
and Nikolaus, throw in some Fortitude cards, and go to town. Barring this
particular plan, being a 6 with two in clan superiors is always going to be
useful somewhere. His special ability is handy, but hardly something to
write home about.
Alonzo Guillen (6) OBF, pot, for, ani. During your untap phase and your
discard phase, if Alonzo is ready, you may burn the edge to look at another
Methuselah's hand. *** Being a 6 with only one in clan superior isn't real
solid, so you'll really be using Alonzo specifically for his special ability
or because he has Pot/Obf/For. Barring these situations, I can't really see
him being that useful. This being said, however, he isn't wasting any points
(5 in disciplines and a moderately useful special ability) and is probably
the key to a good combination of looking at your opponent's hand and then
making them discard stuff.
Jara Drory (7) OBF, ANI, pot, aus. Primogen. During your untap phase, you
may look at a card at random from your predator's hand, and Jara may burn 1
blood to exchange that card with a from your predator's ash heap. **** Jara
is very solid for an Ani/Obf type deck, and is perfectly solid, design wise.
Her special ability is funny, although will more often than not only be
useful in the rare situations where you are working *with* your
predator--say, look at their hand and swap the card for some bleed bounce,
providing they promise to not bounce to you, assuming you are trying to keep
them alive. As a purely defensive measure, her special ability is mostly a
crap shoot. Occasionally you'll pick a card you really want them to lose
(like, say, a Temptation of Greater Power or a parity Shift) and be able to
swap for something useless, but most often, you probably won't be able to do
anything good.
Tammy Walenski (8) POT, OBF, ANI, tha, nec. Tammy gets one optional maneuver
each combat. **** Tammy is the firs vampire we look at that really benefits
from the "new" costing scheme for 8+ point vampires (they all get 1 point
more of stuff than they used to). She has all three in clans at superior and
a good special ability. Granted, her two out of clans aren't *real* useful
(although her tha makes her key for the newly effective Pot/Tha Immortal
Grapple backed Blood Rage killing deck), and she could use a title of some
type, but all in all, she is quite solid.
Kurt Densch (8) POT, OBF, cel, aus, ani. During your untap phase, you may
look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn one blood to move
that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept. **** I'm not real
fond of Kurt (mostly 'cause I don't like his picture), but as he comes with
+1 intercept built right it, he is automatically useful. His disciplines
aren't real spectacular for a 8 pointer, and his special, while certainly
useful, also isn't real spectacular (sure, being able to filter your deck
some is good, but 1 blood is an expensive cost for this ability and it is a
crap shoot). But then he does come with built in +1 intercept, which makes
him solid by definition.
Khalid (9) POT, OBF, ANI, AUS, tha. Primogen. During your master phase, if
Khalid is ready, you may use a master phase action and discard a card that
requires Obfuscate from your hand to gain a pool. **** As big vampires go,
Khalid is very solid. Good discipline spread and a very useful special
ability (clear up stealth hand jam *and* gain pool. Right on!), his only
negative point is being a 9 point vampire who is only a primogen. If he were
a prince, he'd rock the world.
Casino Reeds (9) POT, OBF, ANI, dem, cel. Prince of Seattle. Casino may move
up to 3 blood from himself to a younger Nosferatu in your uncontrolled
region as an action. Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at
close range). ***** Casino is a very solid huge vampire. He is a Prince, so
he can benefit from the useful Tradition cards, he comes with, effectively,
a built in Minion Tap, and he does +1 damage with ranged strikes, which the
Nosferatu have access to many of. I'd like him even more if he didn't look
like a hippie guy I went to college with, but in terms of pure utility in a
huge vampire, he is very good.
Ellison Humboldt (9) POT, OBF, ANI, PRE, pro. Primogen. Princes cannot block
Ellison. During a referendum, Ellison may burn a blood to force a ready
prince to vote as Ellison's controller wishes. This can change the prince's
votes.***** Ellison is fantastic in a political deck, as he generally nets
you 4 votes (your opposition loses 2, you gain 2), plus one for being a
primogen. His disciplines mesh well with Harrod and Amadeo (the pretty
Nosferatu brigade). That he can't be blocked by princes is only gravy.
Again, a very good huge vampire.
Cock Robin (10) POT, OBF, ANI, for, aus. Justicar. Once per turn, when Cock
Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
the end of the action. +1 strength. **** Cock Robin (am I the only one who
finds his name unfortunate?) is pretty solid, with a good discipline spread
and a moderately useful special ability. He can get Raven Spies and then do
something else, which is always good. +1 strength is handy. Why does he not
get 5 stars? 'Cause he isn't a 9 point Justicar, like Sheldon, Lord of the
Clog Dance.
So there we go: the Neo-Nosferatu at a glance. Overall, not a stinker in the
bunch. Everyone is, at the very least, useful, and many of them are superb.
No one who is sucktackular like Tiberius, Tusk, or Sebastian. Or poor old
Judah (although he is reprinted in the Nosferatu starter. Cummon. They
couldn't have reprinted him with inferior obfuscate added on?)
Peter D Bakija
PD...@bigplanet.com
http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6
"I need a doctor, kinda, sorta. What's wrong with me?
He said there's a skid mark on my aorta and there's no remedy."
-The Donnas
AL
snip
> Cock Robin (10) POT, OBF, ANI, for, aus. Justicar. Once per turn, when Cock
> Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
> the end of the action. +1 strength. **** Cock Robin (am I the only one who
> finds his name unfortunate?) is pretty solid, with a good discipline spread
> and a moderately useful special ability. He can get Raven Spies and then do
> something else, which is always good. +1 strength is handy. Why does he not
> get 5 stars? 'Cause he isn't a 9 point Justicar, like Sheldon, Lord of the
> Clog Dance.
snip
YES! The CE Nosferatu Justicar should have been Sheldon, Lord of the
Clog, who still Rocks and Rolls in His Obese Majesty! He will not be
forgotten, slighted nor discraced. Ever!
AL
vermillian
> Kurt Densch (8) POT, OBF, cel, aus, ani. During your untap phase, you may
> look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn one blood to move
> that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept. **** I'm not real
> fond of Kurt (mostly 'cause I don't like his picture), but as he comes with
> +1 intercept built right it, he is automatically useful. His disciplines
> aren't real spectacular for a 8 pointer, and his special, while certainly
> useful, also isn't real spectacular (sure, being able to filter your deck
> some is good, but 1 blood is an expensive cost for this ability and it is a
> crap shoot). But then he does come with built in +1 intercept, which makes
> him solid by definition.
I wouldn't call his ability a crap shoot so much. You get to look at
the card for free, and MAY burn a blood to move it.
> Khalid (9) POT, OBF, ANI, AUS, tha. Primogen. During your master phase, if
> Khalid is ready, you may use a master phase action and discard a card that
> requires Obfuscate from your hand to gain a pool. **** As big vampires go,
> Khalid is very solid. Good discipline spread and a very useful special
> ability (clear up stealth hand jam *and* gain pool. Right on!), his only
> negative point is being a 9 point vampire who is only a primogen. If he were
> a prince, he'd rock the world.
ah but don't neglect his thaum. Multiple actions makes for goodness
with rutor's hand, especially with his kill obfuscate cards during
master phase bit.
> Casino Reeds (9) POT, OBF, ANI, dem, cel. Prince of Seattle. Casino may move
> up to 3 blood from himself to a younger Nosferatu in your uncontrolled
> region as an action. Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at
> close range). ***** Casino is a very solid huge vampire. He is a Prince, so
> he can benefit from the useful Tradition cards, he comes with, effectively,
> a built in Minion Tap, and he does +1 damage with ranged strikes, which the
> Nosferatu have access to many of. I'd like him even more if he didn't look
> like a hippie guy I went to college with, but in terms of pure utility in a
> huge vampire, he is very good.
consider zip guns, magnums (discguised), aid from bats, sewer lids.
Note that you can get patagia now for limited flight, set to long with
high ground and throw stuff all day, just so they can end combat on
you. :)
> Ellison Humboldt (9) POT, OBF, ANI, PRE, pro. Primogen. Princes cannot block
> Ellison. During a referendum, Ellison may burn a blood to force a ready
> prince to vote as Ellison's controller wishes. This can change the prince's
> votes.***** Ellison is fantastic in a political deck, as he generally nets
> you 4 votes (your opposition loses 2, you gain 2), plus one for being a
> primogen. His disciplines mesh well with Harrod and Amadeo (the pretty
> Nosferatu brigade). That he can't be blocked by princes is only gravy.
> Again, a very good huge vampire.
You're very vague, please note: PRE OBF. That is all.
> Cock Robin (10) POT, OBF, ANI, for, aus. Justicar. Once per turn, when Cock
> Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
> the end of the action. +1 strength. **** Cock Robin (am I the only one who
> finds his name unfortunate?) is pretty solid, with a good discipline spread
> and a moderately useful special ability. He can get Raven Spies and then do
> something else, which is always good. +1 strength is handy. Why does he not
> get 5 stars? 'Cause he isn't a 9 point Justicar, like Sheldon, Lord of the
> Clog Dance.
yesh... I feel he doesn't have enough points for his cost. 7
disciplines. 1+ for title, less than one for animalism special and 1
for plus strength. That's eleven points for a ten cap, where most
other ten caps in this new set have closer to 11.
~SV
LSJ
> > Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
> > the end of the action. +1 strength.
> yesh... I feel he doesn't have enough points for his cost. 7
> disciplines. 1+ for title, less than one for animalism special and 1
> for plus strength. That's eleven points for a ten cap, where most
> other ten caps in this new set have closer to 11.
Most 10 caps get 12 points. Cock Robin is no exception.
8 for the disciplines (not sure how you came up with 7)
1.5 Justicar title
1 animalism untap (not sure how you get <1 for this)
1.5 +strength
===
12
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Jozxyqk
> Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message news:<B9C5F554.8A0A%PD...@bigplanet.com>...
>> Kurt Densch (8) POT, OBF, cel, aus, ani. During your untap phase, you may
>> look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn one blood to move
>> that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept.
> I wouldn't call his ability a crap shoot so much. You get to look at
> the card for free, and MAY burn a blood to move it.
Is there time between replacing a Wake and using this ability?
Can you look at the top card before you replace your WWEF, and decide whether
you want it or the next one?
LSJ
> >> look at the top card of your library, and Kurt may burn one blood to move
> >> that card to the bottom of your library. +1 intercept.
> Is there time between replacing a Wake and using this ability?
> Can you look at the top card before you replace your WWEF, and decide whether
> you want it or the next one?
Yes. You order the events of your untap as you wish.
Peter D Bakija
> I wouldn't call his ability a crap shoot so much. You get to look at
> the card for free, and MAY burn a blood to move it.
Well, the usefulness is a crap shoot. I get to look at the top card of my
deck, that I'm probably going to draw in a second anyways, and in all
likelyhood, it is going to be a card I want to draw (as otherwise, why is it
in the deck?) so I'm probably not going to put it at the bottom of the deck.
Sure, occasionally, I'll see a second copy of a unique card I already have
in play, or a super conditional card that isn't useful right now, but most
of the time, I'll see a card that I want to draw and will draw shortly
anyway.
In VTES, the ability to see the top few cards of your or your opponent's
deck is, generally speaking, of limited utility.
> ah but don't neglect his thaum. Multiple actions makes for goodness
> with rutor's hand, especially with his kill obfuscate cards during
> master phase bit.
Sure, but who is he gonna hang out with? Tammy and, umm, uhh, that's pretty
much it. Sure, he'll fit in with a new Pot/Tha deck, but he is huge, and not
really worth it for a combat deck.
> You're very vague, please note: PRE OBF. That is all.
Umm, what?
> yesh... I feel he doesn't have enough points for his cost. 7
> disciplines. 1+ for title, less than one for animalism special and 1
> for plus strength. That's eleven points for a ten cap, where most
> other ten caps in this new set have closer to 11.
He has 3 superiors (6 points), 2 inferiors (2 points), a Justicar (1-1.5
points, depending on who you talk to), a special untap (.5-1), and +1
strength (1-1.5). At minimum, that's 10.5, rounded up to 11. At maximum,
that is 12. Either way, pretty good.
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
> > Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> > > Cock Robin (10) POT, OBF, ANI, for, aus. Justicar. Once per turn, when Cock
> > > Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
> > > the end of the action. +1 strength.
>
> > yesh... I feel he doesn't have enough points for his cost. 7
> > disciplines. 1+ for title, less than one for animalism special and 1
> > for plus strength. That's eleven points for a ten cap, where most
> > other ten caps in this new set have closer to 11.
>
> Most 10 caps get 12 points. Cock Robin is no exception.
>
> 8 for the disciplines (not sure how you came up with 7)
> 1.5 Justicar title
> 1 animalism untap (not sure how you get <1 for this)
> 1.5 +strength
> ===
> 12
Dag namnit. Where are the rules for costing? I've been tricked. Got a
URL or sight explaining it?
~SV
vermillian
> vermillian wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't call his ability a crap shoot so much. You get to look at
> > the card for free, and MAY burn a blood to move it.
>
> Well, the usefulness is a crap shoot. I get to look at the top card of my
> deck, that I'm probably going to draw in a second anyways, and in all
> likelyhood, it is going to be a card I want to draw (as otherwise, why is it
> in the deck?) so I'm probably not going to put it at the bottom of the deck.
>
> Sure, occasionally, I'll see a second copy of a unique card I already have
> in play, or a super conditional card that isn't useful right now, but most
> of the time, I'll see a card that I want to draw and will draw shortly
> anyway.
>
> In VTES, the ability to see the top few cards of your or your opponent's
> deck is, generally speaking, of limited utility.
I'm sorry, I thought you were speaking as if you HAD to pay to blood
first then move it, but of course you weren't speaking of that. my
apologies. I seem to be good at putting my foot in my mouth this week.
> > ah but don't neglect his thaum. Multiple actions makes for goodness
> > with rutor's hand, especially with his kill obfuscate cards during
> > master phase bit.
>
> Sure, but who is he gonna hang out with? Tammy and, umm, uhh, that's pretty
> much it. Sure, he'll fit in with a new Pot/Tha deck, but he is huge, and not
> really worth it for a combat deck.
You don't need another vampire for him to hand out with. He sits on
his own. He comes out and you work his skills, plus a few rutor's
hands. That's all. Just because you include one card of a certain
discipline doesn't mean you must include more. Any intercept or weenie
deck I have with more than two vampires in my crypt with animalism
I'll include a copy of army of rats. I was working a Nehsi FSR deck
and I noticed he's got for, so I included 2 freak drives and a rapid
healing.
Or perhaps I'm putting my foot in my mouth again and didn't understand
your reply...
> > You're very vague, please note: PRE OBF. That is all.
>
> Umm, what?
j/k. What I was really saying was to notice his voting beauty. Vote at
stealth, awe, voter cap. You know the combo. I just thought it needed
to be re-emphasized.
> > yesh... I feel he doesn't have enough points for his cost. 7
> > disciplines. 1+ for title, less than one for animalism special and 1
> > for plus strength. That's eleven points for a ten cap, where most
> > other ten caps in this new set have closer to 11.
>
> He has 3 superiors (6 points), 2 inferiors (2 points), a Justicar (1-1.5
> points, depending on who you talk to), a special untap (.5-1), and +1
> strength (1-1.5). At minimum, that's 10.5, rounded up to 11. At maximum,
> that is 12. Either way, pretty good.
Um... I guess I really don't know the costing schemes... Do you have a
link to where i can learn them better?
~SV
Xian
> Official VEKN Nosferatu Newsletter for October 2002
Is that like the Neo-Tholians? :)
> Amelia, The Blood Red Tears
[snip]
> She is very solid. Sure, her special ability isn't fantastic (it seems likely
> that anyone facing her in combat is going to be at zero blood at the end of
> combat anyway), but in a pinch, certainly not bad.
It *does* mean that Muddles will never, ever rush her. Minor bonus
really, but it's nice. And it could prove edge-ful against War
Ghouls, Ambrosius, and other difficult-to-deal-with minions.
> Jara Drory (7) OBF, ANI, pot, aus. Primogen. During your untap phase, you
> may look at a card at random from your predator's hand, and Jara may burn 1
> blood to exchange that card with a from your predator's ash heap. ****
[snip]
> crap shoot. Occasionally you'll pick a card you really want them to lose
> (like, say, a Temptation of Greater Power or a parity Shift) and be able to
> swap for something useless, but most often, you probably won't be able to do
> anything good.
It's been mentioned previously, but you could always simply give them
back the card they *just* discarded, or combo with the guy who lets
you look at their hand (assuming you still have the edge) to find out
what they really don't need more of in their hand.
> Khalid (9) POT, OBF, ANI, AUS, tha. Primogen. During your master phase, if
> Khalid is ready, you may use a master phase action and discard a card that
> requires Obfuscate from your hand to gain a pool. **** As big vampires go,
> Khalid is very solid. Good discipline spread and a very useful special
> ability (clear up stealth hand jam *and* gain pool. Right on!), his only
> negative point is being a 9 point vampire who is only a primogen. If he were
> a prince, he'd rock the world.
Yeah, again, another pot/tha vampire; although he's huge, POT/tha is
superior to pot/THA, and you can always Minion Tap/Blood Doll him and
then Taste of Vitae, not having to worry about stupid Skin of Steel.
> Casino Reeds
> I'd like him even more if he didn't look like a hippie guy I went to college
> with, but in terms of pure utility in a huge vampire, he is very good.
Was it that darn scene-hopping Josh? :)
> Cock Robin (10) POT, OBF, ANI, for, aus. Justicar. Once per turn, when Cock
> Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism, he untaps at
> the end of the action. +1 strength. **** Cock Robin (am I the only one who
> finds his name unfortunate?) is pretty solid, with a good discipline spread
Unfortunately funny!
> and a moderately useful special ability. He can get Raven Spies and then do
> something else, which is always good. +1 strength is handy. Why does he not
> get 5 stars? 'Cause he isn't a 9 point Justicar, like Sheldon, Lord of the
> Clog Dance.
Dude, I *so* have you beat now. I have an 8-point Justicar. I win!
> Or poor old
> Judah (although he is reprinted in the Nosferatu starter. Cummon. They
> couldn't have reprinted him with inferior obfuscate added on?)
Yeah, that would have been nice...mmm...POT/obf.
Xian
"you got your rock in my dance"
LSJ
No rules. Just guidelines.
1-4 cap: cap-1 points
5-6 cap: cap points
7-8 cap: cap+1 points
9-10 cap: cap+2 points
11+ cap: cap+3 points
Peter D Bakija
> Dag namnit. Where are the rules for costing? I've been tricked. Got a
> URL or sight explaining it?
I don't think they actually exist in written form anywhere, but they have
been reverse engineered over the years, and LSJ has been posting costing
snippets here and there. Generally speaking, I think the current costing
scheem is something along the lines of:
1 point for inferior discipline
2 points for superior discipline
.5 points per vote
1.5 for +1 bleed or +1 strength
1-2 for various special abilities
2-4 cap gets cap-1 in stuff
5-7 cap gets cap in stuff
8-9 cap gets cap +1 in stuff
10 cap gets cap+2 in stuff
Give or take.
Peter D Bakija
> I'm sorry, I thought you were speaking as if you HAD to pay to blood
> first then move it, but of course you weren't speaking of that. my
> apologies. I seem to be good at putting my foot in my mouth this week.
Not a problem. I think if his ability was free, it would be too good (maybe
if it were "During your untap phase, you may look at the top card of your
deck, and you may place this card on the bottom of your deck if you choose.
You may do this once per untap phase.), as you could just file through your
deck looking at every card in order, and always find the exact card you
wanted. As it is, however, paying apoint of blood, it isn't that useful--you
can spend blood to move a few cards to the bottom of your library, but that
is a really high cost for an ability of limited use. Sure, you might want to
gamble and do it 9 times hoping to find that one card you *really* need to
win this turn, but is spending 9 blood to do that a good idea, especially as
you probably won't even find it? I'm thinking I'd like it better if it were
free but only once a turn (like in the parenthesis above :-)
> You don't need another vampire for him to hand out with. He sits on
> his own. He comes out and you work his skills, plus a few rutor's
> hands. That's all. Just because you include one card of a certain
> discipline doesn't mean you must include more.
Sure, you don't have to, but I'm a big fan of building decks where all the
cards are always useful--I know that many other folks don't necessarily
think that way, but generally speaking, I'm unlikely to put in a prayer
card. Even if I have 2 of Khalid in my deck and a couple Rutor's, the number
of times I'll get both at the right time is vastly less than the number of
times I'll have one of them and not the other. Thus, I'll generally leave
out the prayer instrument (in this case, the Rutor's). If Iwere working this
angle, I'd be much more likely to capitalize upon the Nosferatu with
Fortitude (of which there are many) and Freak Drives.
> Any intercept or weenie
> deck I have with more than two vampires in my crypt with animalism
> I'll include a copy of army of rats. I was working a Nehsi FSR deck
> and I noticed he's got for, so I included 2 freak drives and a rapid
> healing.
Yeah, see, I don't build decks like that. But cei la vie :-)
> j/k. What I was really saying was to notice his voting beauty. Vote at
> stealth, awe, voter cap. You know the combo. I just thought it needed
> to be re-emphasized.
Oh, sure. Having PRE/OBF is pretty cool, but there are plenty of vampires
with PRE/OBF now (or close). That there are now three Nosferatu with
Presence (and one with PRE!) is pretty solid, however. They now can build a
solid (if large) stealth/vote deck as a clan (2 each Ellison, Harrod, and
Amadeo) with titles (that the Setites don't have) and Potence to scare off
attackers.
> Um... I guess I really don't know the costing schemes... Do you have a
> link to where i can learn them better?
See my other recent post.
Peter D Bakija
> It *does* mean that Muddles will never, ever rush her. Minor bonus
> really, but it's nice. And it could prove edge-ful against War
> Ghouls, Ambrosius, and other difficult-to-deal-with minions.
Strong point I hadn't considered. Cool!
> It's been mentioned previously, but you could always simply give them
> back the card they *just* discarded, or combo with the guy who lets
> you look at their hand (assuming you still have the edge) to find out
> what they really don't need more of in their hand.
Certainly possible angles--I don't discount it's use completely, but the 1
blood cost is pretty steep.
> Yeah, again, another pot/tha vampire; although he's huge, POT/tha is
> superior to pot/THA, and you can always Minion Tap/Blood Doll him and
> then Taste of Vitae, not having to worry about stupid Skin of Steel.
I'm beginning to really like the POT/tha idea...
> Was it that darn scene-hopping Josh? :)
Nah. I dodn't actually go to college with Josh. When he was in college, he
mostly just looked like Tom Petty :-)
> Unfortunately funny!
Bwaaa!
> Dude, I *so* have you beat now. I have an 8-point Justicar. I win!
I know. I love that guy!
> Yeah, that would have been nice...mmm...POT/obf.
I can dream, can't I? Man. If Judah had obf, I'd *so* put Judah in my Rush
deck in a second. I mean, yeah, a 6 and all, but POT/obf and a vote? And
that cool ass picture! Cummon! For the love of G'Quan! Give Judah inferior
obfuscate! He is a 6 with 4 points of disciplines and 1 stinking vote! He is
getting screwed with only 4.5 points of stuff for a 6 point vampire! All I'm
looking for is freaking inferior obfuscate? Is it so wrong to want to be
loved?
Derek Ray
Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> mumbled something about:
>wanted. As it is, however, paying apoint of blood, it isn't that useful--you
>can spend blood to move a few cards to the bottom of your library, but that
>is a really high cost for an ability of limited use. Sure, you might want to
>gamble and do it 9 times hoping to find that one card you *really* need to
>win this turn, but is spending 9 blood to do that a good idea, especially as
>you probably won't even find it? I'm thinking I'd like it better if it were
>free but only once a turn (like in the parenthesis above :-)
I'll be delighted to spend a blood to remove a Master or reaction card
from the top of my deck, every turn it's necessary... Due to the
incoming changes from Camarilla Edition (concealed weapon/CEL decks
being viable means guns are now viable means gun hosers are now worth
putting in your deck means you'll have more cards that may not be
applicable in the current game), I can easily see a more toolboxy
environment starting to move in.
I would rarely spend it to fish for "just the right" card. But since
you can look for free, this ability is pretty damned good at preventing
personal hand-jam.
>> You don't need another vampire for him to hand out with. He sits on
>> his own. He comes out and you work his skills, plus a few rutor's
>> hands. That's all. Just because you include one card of a certain
>> discipline doesn't mean you must include more.
>
>Sure, you don't have to, but I'm a big fan of building decks where all the
>cards are always useful--I know that many other folks don't necessarily
>think that way, but generally speaking, I'm unlikely to put in a prayer
I think the days of the one-trick pony are declining. These days, you
can run into an awful lot of different things out there, and a lot of
those things find stealth bleed/weenie bleed kinda crunchy.
One-trick ponies will still be highly effective sometimes, but it'll be
a lot more of a crapshoot and depend almost totally on who they sit next
to.
>card. Even if I have 2 of Khalid in my deck and a couple Rutor's, the number
>of times I'll get both at the right time is vastly less than the number of
>times I'll have one of them and not the other. Thus, I'll generally leave
>out the prayer instrument (in this case, the Rutor's). If Iwere working this
Hell Hound. =P
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Derek Ray
>Xian wrote:
>
>> It's been mentioned previously, but you could always simply give them
>> back the card they *just* discarded, or combo with the guy who lets
>> you look at their hand (assuming you still have the edge) to find out
>> what they really don't need more of in their hand.
>
>Certainly possible angles--I don't discount it's use completely, but the 1
>blood cost is pretty steep.
This is another one whose ability is being massively underrated. It
doesn't matter what you get -- you can almost always screw them, because
you can always remember what they discarded and use it if nothing better
comes to mind.
Most of the time, something better should come to mind. Stealth bleeder
behind you? Pull a bleed card, give them back a stealth card. Pull a
stealth card, give them back a reaction. Giving them back a discarded
Master is pretty good no matter what. Get one of their Wakes? Give
them a stealth card; better yet, give them another reaction card and
watch them leave all their minions untapped to use the handful of blue.
Free turn! Never hurts to give them back one of their Dodges, either,
especially if you're not the fighty type.
Combat decks should be fairly easy as well. I went through this before
with Aaron -- you guys TOTALLY underestimate the power of knowledge in
this game, especially when it's combined with selective alteration.
Revelations, Courier, Jara, Scrying of Secrets/Slaughterhouse...
LSJ
>
> vermillian wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, I thought you were speaking as if you HAD to pay to blood
> > first then move it, but of course you weren't speaking of that. my
> > apologies. I seem to be good at putting my foot in my mouth this week.
>
> Not a problem. I think if his ability was free, it would be too good (maybe
> if it were "During your untap phase, you may look at the top card of your
> deck, and you may place this card on the bottom of your deck if you choose.
> You may do this once per untap phase.), as you could just file through your
> deck looking at every card in order, and always find the exact card you
> wanted. As it is, however, paying apoint of blood, it isn't that useful--you
> can spend blood to move a few cards to the bottom of your library, but that
> is a really high cost for an ability of limited use.
No. "During X, do Y" includes the concept of "once during X" already.
David Cherryholmes
> Combat decks should be fairly easy as well. I went through this before
> with Aaron -- you guys TOTALLY underestimate the power of knowledge in
> this game, especially when it's combined with selective alteration.
> Revelations, Courier, Jara, Scrying of Secrets/Slaughterhouse...
...and Le Dinh Tho!
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu
Joshua Duffin
> vermillian wrote:
> > Dag namnit. Where are the rules for costing? I've been tricked. Got a
> > URL or sight explaining it?
>
> No rules. Just guidelines.
>
> 1-4 cap: cap-1 points
> 5-6 cap: cap points
> 7-8 cap: cap+1 points
> 9-10 cap: cap+2 points
> 11+ cap: cap+3 points
While you're here, could you lay out all the current Design Team's
guidelines in one place for us? I think it's something like
1-4 cap: cap-1 points
5-6 cap: cap points
7-8 cap: cap+1 points
9-10 cap: cap+2 points
11+ cap: cap+3 points
and then:
titles = 0.5 points per vote (Priscus = 1 point)
+1 intercept = 1 point
+1 strength/bleed = 1.5 points
+1 stealth = 2 points
inf discipline = 1 point
sup discipline = 2 points
other abilities = unpredictable points
Is that right? Are there any other "standard" abilities that you
could add to the list?
How do the 11-cap Independents jibe with the 11-cap Camarilla vamps
in this system? The "11+ cap: cap+3 points" doesn't seem to make
any allowance for being Camarilla or not, but the Inner Circle vamps
have +2 bleed and 4 votes where the Independents have +1 bleed and
2 votes, and several of the Inner Circle vamps have "odd" specials
that seem at least as strong as those of the Independents.
Discipline points = 11, 10, 10, 10 for the Independents;
10, 8, 10, 10, 9, 10, 9 for the Inner Circle.
Surely +2 bleed and 4 votes must be worth at least 2 points more
than +1 bleed and 2 votes? Are the Inner Circle just seriously
over-pointed by the current system?
Josh
point-crazy
LSJ
What you've got is right.
I can't think of any other abilities that would be "standard" enough
to be added to the list.
> How do the 11-cap Independents jibe with the 11-cap Camarilla vamps
> in this system? The "11+ cap: cap+3 points" doesn't seem to make
> any allowance for being Camarilla or not, but the Inner Circle vamps
> have +2 bleed and 4 votes where the Independents have +1 bleed and
> 2 votes, and several of the Inner Circle vamps have "odd" specials
> that seem at least as strong as those of the Independents.
>
> Discipline points = 11, 10, 10, 10 for the Independents;
> 10, 8, 10, 10, 9, 10, 9 for the Inner Circle.
>
> Surely +2 bleed and 4 votes must be worth at least 2 points more
> than +1 bleed and 2 votes? Are the Inner Circle just seriously
> over-pointed by the current system?
Sect garners no points in the formula.
But then, the formula is not the final word.
I'm not sure what formula was used for the WotC-designed vampires,
and that includes the Inner Circle members.
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > While you're here, could you lay out all the current Design Team's
> > guidelines in one place for us? I think it's something like
> >
> > 1-4 cap: cap-1 points
> > 5-6 cap: cap points
> > 7-8 cap: cap+1 points
> > 9-10 cap: cap+2 points
> > 11+ cap: cap+3 points
> >
> > and then:
> >
> > titles = 0.5 points per vote (Priscus = 1 point)
> > +1 intercept = 1 point
> > +1 strength/bleed = 1.5 points
> > +1 stealth = 2 points
> > inf discipline = 1 point
> > sup discipline = 2 points
> > other abilities = unpredictable points
> What you've got is right.
> I can't think of any other abilities that would be "standard" enough
> to be added to the list.
Doh, I was trying to get everything in one post and then forgot to
add this question:
How much would +2 bleed be worth on a current-design-team vampire?
What about +2 stealth, +2 intercept, +2 strength?
> Sect garners no points in the formula.
> But then, the formula is not the final word.
>
> I'm not sure what formula was used for the WotC-designed vampires,
> and that includes the Inner Circle members.
Heh. Clearly the formula wasn't the final word then either, given
Gwendolyn vs Arika.
Josh
pointillistic
LSJ
> How much would +2 bleed be worth on a current-design-team vampire?
> What about +2 stealth, +2 intercept, +2 strength?
Off-the-cuff scores:
+2 bleed: 2.5 points
+2 stealth: 5 points
+2 intercept: 2 points (maybe 1.5)
+2 strength: 3 points
But, given the rarity of such things, their "whole package" adjusments
would probably overshadow the table above.
Curevei
>> What about +2 stealth, +2 intercept, +2 strength?
>
>Off-the-cuff scores:
>
>+2 bleed: 2.5 points
>+2 stealth: 5 points
>+2 intercept: 2 points (maybe 1.5)
>+2 strength: 3 points
>
>But, given the rarity of such things, their "whole package" adjusments
>would probably overshadow the table above.
What I find odd is that plus intercept isn't valued more highly. Neither plus
bleed nor plus strength can shut down a deck like plus intercept can.
Not that I think anyone cares, I'd value:
+1 bleed, +1 strength - 1
+1 intercept - 1.5
+1 stealth - 2
+2 bleed, +2 strength - 2
+2 intercept, +2 stealth - n/a
Gomi no Sensei
Curevei <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote:
>What I find odd is that plus intercept isn't valued more highly. Neither plus
>bleed nor plus strength can shut down a deck like plus intercept can.
I don't think +2 perm intercept will let you block a significantly higher
percentage of actions than +1 intercept, and therefore is only worth
a little more.
On the other hand, being ousted definitely shuts down a deck, so plus
bleed is sure worth charging for.
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
Peter D Bakija
> I think the days of the one-trick pony are declining. These days, you
> can run into an awful lot of different things out there, and a lot of
> those things find stealth bleed/weenie bleed kinda crunchy.
Possibly--I still see super focused being perfectly viable, however. A tad
more of a gamble, possibly, but given favorible seating, you'll still do
fine.
> Hell Hound. =P
Hey now--that Hell Hound is pure utility! I'd never discard him!
Ok. I took him out for a 5th Disarm I got from James Hamblin...
Peter D Bakija
> No. "During X, do Y" includes the concept of "once during X" already.
Really? Weird. I figured you could use that ability as often as you want,
assuming blood.
Oh well.
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
> > No. "During X, do Y" includes the concept of "once during X" already.
>
> Really? Weird. I figured you could use that ability as often as you want,
> assuming blood.
FYI: The classic poster child for the "during X, do Y" means "once" ruling
is Powerbase: Chicago.
Peter D Bakija
> FYI: The classic poster child for the "during X, do Y" means "once" ruling
> is Powerbase: Chicago.
Cool. Thanks!