House of Sorrow + Bleeding the Vine
Jozxyqk
My prey plays a master card I don't like.
Can I tap the House to immediately untap-and-tap the BtV?
Darby Keeney
Bleeding the Vine (BtV) explicitly states "as that card is played."
I am reasonably sure that using any other effect before tapping BtV
causes you to leave that "as played" window, thereby passing the
opportunity for cancellation with the newly untapped BtV.
The allowable play is to use House of Sorrows (HoS) to untap BtV
before the other player's Master phase - assuming that you're not
saving the HoS option for some other tapped non-minion card(s) you
might wish to untap.
Jozxyqk
> On Dec 8, 12:13 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
> > I control an untapped House of Sorrow and a tapped Bleeding the Vine.
> > My prey plays a master card I don't like.
> > Can I tap the House to immediately untap-and-tap the BtV?
> Bleeding the Vine (BtV) explicitly states "as that card is played."
> I am reasonably sure that using any other effect before tapping BtV
> causes you to leave that "as played" window, thereby passing the
> opportunity for cancellation with the newly untapped BtV.
Wake + basic Rewind Time has been given permission to work.
So House + BtV very well might.
Waiting for LSJ confirmation one way or the other...
Kushiel
> Wake + basic Rewind Time has been given permission to work.
> So House + BtV very well might.
Wake-type effects have been given that permission as an explicit
ruling, though. I'm guessing that using the House is more comparable
with using the Barrens to discard something in hopes of drawing a
Sudden/Wash, which isn't allowed.
John Eno
Chris Berger
Well, LSJ gave permission for Reliquary: Shako Remains (I think that's
the name - the Assamite-only promo that lets you draw cards) to
interrupt the play of a Psyche in order to fish for an Obedience, so
that seems like a precedent for allowing House + BtV...
LSJ
Correct.
Darby Keeney
> Waiting for LSJ confirmation one way or the other...
For a game with no timing issues, this game has a lot of timing
issues :)
I found this exchange from 2002 buried in the newgroup (edited for
clarity, link to entire thread posted at bottom). I stand corrected
on the ability to string effects in the "as announced and still
cancellable window" and I count this as a good day, as I learned
something new.
The discussion indicates that (by analogy, in the 2nd and 4th parts)
until people stop creating effects within a timing window, that window
remains open. Tapping HoS to untap BtV to cancel a Master looks no
different from tapping the Coven to generate sufficient blood to play
a Rewind Time on a Master card (assuming the minion is untapped, as
required by card text for canceling Masters).
At least it is a consistent approach, rather than treating Wake
effects as strange exceptions.
To that end, it looks like playing Predator's Communion to untap an
[ABO] Anarch and following that with Power of All by tapping your
newly untapped Anarch is legal.
And playing/replacing a large number of On the Qui Vives/Forced
Awakenings(anything defined as a "Wake Effect") to dredge your library
for a Direct Intervention is similarly OK, since you didn't leave the
"as announced window" to do it.
------Reference Discussion Follows-------
Q1: The question arises of "how much 'time' do people have to play
response/cancelling effects after a card is played?"
LSJ: As much as necessary. Same as how much time that have to play
any
other effect.
Q2: In the contested Barrens example above (in which a duplicate
Barrens was Suddened, and you're looking for a Sudden to stop that
Sudden and have your own Barrens contested), could I tap the Barrens
to draw an additional card, then tap Fragment, then tap Dreams of the
Sphinx to finally get to my Sudden Reversal?
LSJ: Sure.
Q3: Could I then play a Rewind Time to cancel the Barrens (ignoring
the exchange of the Sudden Reversals)?
LSJ: Sure.
Q4: If my untapped True Brujah only had 1 blood, could I tap a Coven
or burn a Blood Tears to give him enough blood to Rewind Time?
LSJ: Sure.
Q5: Where does the window for responding to the event end?
LSJ: When you move on.
Darby Keeney
Now I've confused myself, dang it. I find a post indicating stacked
effects are OK, then LSJ agrees with John (and my original post) that
they aren't.
Maybe if I go back to Rock-Paper-Scissors.
Matthew T. Morgan
> On Dec 8, 12:30 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
>> Waiting for LSJ confirmation one way or the other...
>
> For a game with no timing issues, this game has a lot of timing
> issues :)
Had, not has. :)
> I found this exchange from 2002 buried in the newgroup (edited for
> clarity, link to entire thread posted at bottom). I stand corrected
> on the ability to string effects in the "as announced and still
> cancellable window" and I count this as a good day, as I learned
> something new.
These rulings were overturned in 2004:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c2547e56ecd0e9c9
Now when a card is played, you either just cancel it right away with a
card played from hand or a card on the table, or you resolve it's effects.
No more searching for a cancel card.
It doesn't explicitly state as much, but I'm assuming this also applies to
the question about tapping The Coven to get enough blood to play Rewind
Time.
Matt Morgan
Darby Keeney
Thank you, Matt.
We had been playing by the 2004 ruling for as long as I could remember
hainvg this issue coming up - guess it just never became an problem in
LA (not a lot of DI out West back then).
Anyway, thanks again.
Chris Berger
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Darby Keeney wrote:
> > On Dec 8, 12:30 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Waiting for LSJ confirmation one way or the other...
>
> > For a game with no timing issues, this game has a lot of timing
> > issues :)
>
> Had, not has. :)
>
>
>
> Now when a card is played, you either just cancel it right away with a
> card played from hand or a card on the table, or you resolve it's effects.
> No more searching for a cancel card.
>
Not true, at least not in every case. q.v. you can interrupt Psyche!
with a card that lets you draw in order to find an Obedience to play
in the middle of the resolution of Psyche! Before Psyche! is played,
you are in combat, and after it is played, you are in combat - the
only time you are not in combat is while it's resolving. But LSJ says
that Shango Remains, which cannot be used in combat, can be used in
the middle of resolving a Psyche! in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/eed2518ae88ab00?q=shango+remains+author:lsj#fb7cd207aba6d0ae
Obedience makes sense to play in that window, since it cancels the
combat, i.e. reacts to a trigger and cancels it. Shango Remains
allows you to dig for it, apparently as an interrupt. I don't think
it was ever answered if you can use something else like Barrens to dig
for the cancel card.
So, we still have timing issues. Timing issues, furthermore, which
cannot be resolved by applying prior rules to card text.
LSJ
> On Dec 8, 4:01 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>> Now when a card is played, you either just cancel it right away with a
>> No more searching for a cancel card.
>
> Not true, at least not in every case.
Yes, it is.
> q.v. you can interrupt Psyche!
> with a card that lets you draw in order to find an Obedience to play
> in the middle of the resolution of Psyche!
That isn't canceling the Psyche!.
Matthew T. Morgan
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c254...
>>
>> Now when a card is played, you either just cancel it right away with a
>> card played from hand or a card on the table, or you resolve it's effects.
>> No more searching for a cancel card.
>>
>
> Not true, at least not in every case. q.v. you can interrupt Psyche!
> with a card that lets you draw in order to find an Obedience to play
> in the middle of the resolution of Psyche! Before Psyche! is played,
> you are in combat, and after it is played, you are in combat - the
> only time you are not in combat is while it's resolving. But LSJ says
> that Shango Remains, which cannot be used in combat, can be used in
> the middle of resolving a Psyche! in this thread:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/eed2518ae88ab00?q=shango+remains+author:lsj#fb7cd207aba6d0ae
Obedience does not cancel Psyche! or anything else for that matter. This
isn't the same thing. Obedience is played in between the two combats to
end the action (and thus avoid combat). Psyche! is still played and
resolves normally. It's just that the effect of Pysche! (a new combat)
doesn't take place because combat has ended.
> Obedience makes sense to play in that window, since it cancels the
> combat, i.e. reacts to a trigger and cancels it. Shango Remains
To be perfectly precise, Obedience doesn't cancel anything. It ends the
action (including combat).
> allows you to dig for it, apparently as an interrupt. I don't think
> it was ever answered if you can use something else like Barrens to dig
> for the cancel card.
Sure it was. See the link I provided upthread.
> So, we still have timing issues. Timing issues, furthermore, which
> cannot be resolved by applying prior rules to card text.
It's not the same thing, since the example you provided isn't one in which
a card is cancelled. What I wrote above holds true, as far as I know.
When a card is played, one may use an effect in play (such as Bleeding the
Vine or Khalu) or a card from hand (such as Direct Intervention or Sudden
Reversal) to cancel it. If nobody does this, then the card takes effect.
There's no digging or searching or other state-changing effects that can
happen before the card takes effect.
I'm not aware if LSJ has ruled on this, but to extrapolate from the 2004
ruling, I would presume that it is not legal to tap The Coven to give
Khalu enough blood to cancel a minion card as it is being played. If he
started with 5, fine and you can give him the Coven blood right after, but
if he has less than 5 blood, there should be no way for him to use his
special without giving him blood before the minion card is played.
Matt Morgan
Chris Berger
>
> It's not the same thing, since the example you provided isn't one in which
> a card is cancelled. What I wrote above holds true, as far as I know.
> When a card is played, one may use an effect in play (such as Bleeding the
> Vine or Khalu) or a card from hand (such as Direct Intervention or Sudden
> Reversal) to cancel it. If nobody does this, then the card takes effect.
> There's no digging or searching or other state-changing effects that can
> happen before the card takes effect.
>
in certain instances you can play a card (like Psyche!), and the other
player can, apparently, dig or search or take other state-changing
effects *before* Psyche! takes effect. Obedience can only be played
when you are "about to enter combat". Since this happens in the
middle of the resolution of Psyche! (Psyche is played when combat is
ending, and starts a new combat as part of its resolution), the only
way that you would be allowed to draw into and play the Obedience is
if you are allowed to play a card-drawing effect in the middle of
Psyche's resolution. Therefore, there is absolutely a chance to draw
a card before Psyche takes effect. This is the only situation where
that is legal, as far as I know, but it invalidates your statement
that you can never play effects in between a card being played and
before it takes effect.
Darby Keeney
There are a ton of places where a card is played but it does not take
effect immediately. Like, every time you take a card-driven action.
It would be a pretty boring game without block opportunities. "I
bleed with Govern. OK, your card takes effect and I love 4 pool."
Actions put effects in a queue for later resolution. Psyche! puts
combats in a queue for later resolution.
So. Combat ends. You have that fine line where Psyche! is playable
and you play it. I don't cancel it. You have the impulse and decline
to play anything else playable "at the end" of combat. You must pass
the impulse to me for any effect playable in the same window.
I get the impulse. I use Shango. That's valid, it says "not usable
in combat, and we're "at the end of combat." You don't cancel the
effect, I draw cards and give you the impulse back (I must).
NOTE: I find "AT the end of combat" and "NOT IN combat" sharing a
timeslice interesting. Evidently, a single timepoint which defines
the difference between two durations is INCLUDED in both durations.
So, "AT the end of combat" fits both in combat and non-combat
timeframes (duh....it's Psyche!). Figuring this crap out is why
someone pays LSJ the big bucks.
You decline to create any effects in response to my new hand size and
must pass the impulse back to me again. I play Obedience (valid, we
are not in combat so reactions are OK and we are "about to enter
combat" because of your Psyche!). You do not cancel it. I give you
the impulse back.
You play nothing in response to my Obedience and pass the impulse back
to me. I play nothing. The action ends (Obedience card text). You
get the impulse back for any post-action nonsence.
You decline to play Freak Drive at [FOR] and pass the impulse back to
me.
I play Cat's Guidance at [ani] to untap, since all of the possible
combats from that action are concluded. Passing the impulse back to
you.
I think you could still opt to Freak Drive now, in response to my
Cat's Guidance (they are both in the "play after combat, if any"
window), though I've never seen a response in that order.
So, I don't know if this sequence is entirely correct, but at least it
justified the ruling :)
Darby Keeney
> "I bleed with Govern. OK, your card takes effect and I love 4 pool."
While I do indeed love my pool, in the example stated, I would lose 3
pool :)
Kushiel
> You play nothing in response to my Obedience and pass the impulse back
> to me. I play nothing. The action ends (Obedience card text). You
> get the impulse back for any post-action nonsence.
From this point on, you've got it wrong. Obedience ends the action, as
you point out, which means no more action mods or reactions may be
played.
LSJ: http://preview.tinyurl.com/5hq2u7
John Eno
Darby Keeney
Ahhh, yeah - Obedience had a functional change. Thanks for pointing
that the error.
Matthew T. Morgan
> On Dec 8, 9:16 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's not the same thing, since the example you provided isn't one in which
>> a card is cancelled. What I wrote above holds true, as far as I know.
>> When a card is played, one may use an effect in play (such as Bleeding the
>> Vine or Khalu) or a card from hand (such as Direct Intervention or Sudden
>> Reversal) to cancel it. If nobody does this, then the card takes effect.
>> There's no digging or searching or other state-changing effects that can
>> happen before the card takes effect.
>>
> My point was not whether or not a card is cancelled.
That's where your argument falls apart. This thread is about cancelling
cards.
Matt Morgan
Chris Berger
So, a card being played and taking effect only counts for cancelling?
Otherwise a card can be played and then you can interrupt it with any
effects you want as long as they don't cancel the actual card play?
That doesn't make sense, and that's not generally how it works, except
for, for some reason, Psyche!
LSJ
> So, a card being played and taking effect only counts for cancelling?
The ruling on what can't be done in the "as played" window only counts for the
as played window, yeah.
> Otherwise a card can be played and then you can interrupt it with any
> effects you want as long as they don't cancel the actual card play?
If a the effect of a card sets up something in which some other effect can be
used, then that other thing can be used.
Things that cancel the actual card play tend to be the "as played" effects.
> That doesn't make sense, and that's not generally how it works, except
> for, for some reason, Psyche!
That how it works for all the triggered plays, including Obedience vs. Psyche!
(and Psyche! vs. Form of Mist and so on).
Chris Berger
Triggered plays, yes. Obedience vs. Psyche! makes perfect sense, but
interrupting the play of Psyche! for an unrelated effect, like drawing
a card seems like it's counter to the entire way that timing works in
V:TES. So, maybe I was just wrong about how timing works.
Does this mean that during the resolution of a card, you can interrupt
it at any point with other effects? Only effects that allow you to
draw and/or untap a minion? If someone plays Golconda on my minion,
I'm guessing that I can't use Heidelburg to take all his blood off
before the Golconda resolves. Or can I? That's why I don't
completely understand why I can use a card that allows me to draw
cards in the middle of the resolution of Psyche! (in hopes of drawing
an Obedience, which as it responds to a trigger, I understand why it
can be played in this window). In the Golconda situation, can I, say,
tap the Barrens to discard a card, hoping to draw a hypothetical card
that is playable "when a minion is being removed from the game"? Or
if a Malkavian Dementia were played, could I draw a card to try and
find a Diamond Thunderbolt? Since Diamond Thunderbolt isn't played
"as Malk Dementia is played", it would be legal - I just don't know if
the draw card effect is legal in the middle of the resolution of
master cards, or if it only applies to Psyche!
Effects that respond to a trigger, obviously should be playable.
Effects that do not respond to a trigger, on the other hand, I'm
completely confused about...
LSJ
> Does this mean that during the resolution of a card, you can interrupt
> it at any point with other effects? Only effects that allow you to
> draw and/or untap a minion? If someone plays Golconda on my minion,
> I'm guessing that I can't use Heidelburg to take all his blood off
> before the Golconda resolves. Or can I? That's why I don't
> completely understand why I can use a card that allows me to draw
> cards in the middle of the resolution of Psyche!
Ah. Because Golconda resolves and the minion burns. It leaves the minion in the
ash heap when it finishes resolving.
Psyche!, on the other hand, resolves and leaves the minions marked to enter
combat. The combat is not included in the resolution of Psyche!.
Chris Berger
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Does this mean that during the resolution of a card, you can interrupt
> > it at any point with other effects? Only effects that allow you to
> > draw and/or untap a minion? If someone plays Golconda on my minion,
> > I'm guessing that I can't use Heidelburg to take all his blood off
> > before the Golconda resolves. Or can I? That's why I don't
> > completely understand why I can use a card that allows me to draw
> > cards in the middle of the resolution of Psyche!
>
> Ah. Because Golconda resolves and the minion burns. It leaves the minion in the
> ash heap when it finishes resolving.
>
Golconda actually leaves them removed from the game. =)
> Psyche!, on the other hand, resolves and leaves the minions marked to enter
> combat. The combat is not included in the resolution of Psyche!.
Well, okay then, though that doesn't appear to be card text. I
suppose it's a ruling that I was unaware of. Because Psyche! looks
like it begins another combat immediately and leaves both minions in
combat as part of its resolution. In any case, I'm happier to just
have been wrong about how Psyche! works, rather than wrong about the
John Flournoy
> In any case, I'm happier to just
> have been wrong about how Psyche! works, rather than wrong about the
> entire way that timing works in V:TES.
The important part, clearly, is that you're wrong wrong wrong. :)
-John Flournoy
-who'll reiterate this to Chris in person later in the week, heh.
Chris Berger
> On Dec 9, 1:25 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > In any case, I'm happier to just
> > have been wrong about how Psyche! works, rather than wrong about the
> > entire way that timing works in V:TES.
>
> The important part, clearly, is that you're wrong wrong wrong. :)
>
I really don't think Psyche! should work that way (by card text), but
since there's at least some reasonable explanation of why you're
allowed to draw in between Psyche! being played and combat starting, I
can't exactly argue that "I don't think it *should* work that way,"
because I have no say in the matter. So, I'll say I'm wrong because
it's the only way to give up and have the argument just stop... =)
And you're still super wrong because you thought Improvised Tactics
was worth something.
robert...@hotmail.com
> > Psyche!, on the other hand, resolves and leaves the minions marked to enter
> > combat. The combat is not included in the resolution of Psyche!.
>
> Well, okay then, though that doesn't appear to be card text. I
> suppose it's a ruling that I was unaware of. Because Psyche! looks
> like it begins another combat immediately and leaves both minions in
> combat as part of its resolution. In any case, I'm happier to just
> have been wrong about how Psyche! works, rather than wrong about the
> entire way that timing works in V:TES.
That's because "Psyche! (and Coordinated Attacks) are "magic" -- they
are combat cards
that are played at the end of combat. Not quite in combat and not
quite after."
-LSJ
Magic!