[Rules] Rotshreck + Claws of the Dead/Body Arsenal versus Combat Ends
Shockwave
Apologies if this has been asked a million times before, I'm typing
just before leaving work for a trip away, and myself and one player at
tournament this weekend have actually never really thought about it
before.
To keep it simple: If one Minion plays Hands + Agg (Claws / Arsenal)
and the other Combat Ends, can you Rotshreck? I'm leaning towards yes
simply because you're allowed to play it even if it would have been
unsuccessful, but the clause about only being able to be used when
attemptin to inflict confused us.
The theory was this, it comes down to when 'attempt to inflict' means,
be it choosing or resolving Strikes.
Minion A chooses Majesty
Minion B chooses Hands
Now, before Strike Resolution, B adds Body Arsenal to the mix, making
his damage aggravated.
Strike Resolution.
As Combat Ends is resolved first, this may mean that A will never
resolve his Strike, so never attempted to inflict anything, voiding
the opportunity for Rotshreck. Or, can he play it during Choosing a
Strike, in which case the Rotshreck kicks in and Combat Ends there.
I hoped to use the Search on Monger to answer this, but it's playing
up at the moment, and doesn't seem to be responding at all for any of
us. Once again, apologies if it's been asked a million times
before. :)
Thanks all!
- Dave
Shockwave
"Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion plays a Strike:
Combat Ends?
Yes.
Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
whether or not the strike will successfully resolve. "
Apologies for taking up valuable electrons. :D
adam....@gmail.com
But I heard that if you attempt to do aggravated hand damage and the
range is set to long, you cannot rotschreck?
Can anyone clarify this for me?
Jozxyqk
> On Aug 22, 8:57 am, Shockwave <d_knowles...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > And straight after, I find it in the FAQ. D'oh!
> >
> > Combat Ends?
> > Yes.
> > R?tschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
> > whether or not the strike will successfully resolve. "
> >
> > Apologies for taking up valuable electrons. :D
> "R?tschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
> whether or not the strike will successfully resolve. "
> But I heard that if you attempt to do aggravated hand damage and the
> range is set to long, you cannot rotschreck?
> Can anyone clarify this for me?
That's correct. You need to be attempting to do agg damage that would
actually do damage (against a normal, non-dodging, non-s:ce-ing, minion).
LSJ
Well, actually do damage "on him or her" is the key point there. At long range,
the strike is not attempting to do damage on the vampire (but rather, on the air
in front of zem).
Jeroen
> And straight after, I find it in the FAQ. D'oh!
>
> "Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion plays a Strike:
> Combat Ends?
> Yes.
Indeed. Still need to have 1 strenght or higher and at a range where
the strike might have an effect.
> Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
> whether or not the strike will successfully resolve. "
Which to me sounds (and has always sounded) a bit strange. Isn't
Rötschreck played after the choose strikes step, but before the
resolve strikes step?
Therefore, strikes don't resolve by definition, making the above
sentence a bit strange.
tbz_...@hotmail.com
Hang on, it works against s:ce as above, surely it would work against
a dodge, too?
ta
John "BeAst" Best
Jeroen
> > That's correct. You need to be attempting to do agg damage that would
> > actually do damage (against a normal, non-dodging, non-s:ce-ing, minion).
>
> Hang on, it works against s:ce as above, surely it would work against
> a dodge, too?
yes. Nobody is indicating otherwise. 'would' is the key word.
Blooded Sand
So technically speaking, if Stanislava is in combat with Ur-shulgi,
and she attempts to strike with agg, for 1, and Ur-shulgi strikes with
scorpions touch, with first strike, then she cannot rothschreck? Even
though because of Rothschreck you never ever actually get to strike
resolution? WTF?
Hodgestar
wrote:
> But I heard that if you attempt to do aggravated hand damage and the
> range is set to long, you cannot rotschreck?
> Can anyone clarify this for me?
You can't declare a close range strike (e.g. aggravate hand damage) at
all if the range is long.
Schiavo
Simon
Jozxyqk
> resolve strikes step?
No, Rotschreck is played *during* the choose strikes step.
If Rachel with a Madness Network is rushing, has an ivory
bow, and strikes with bow + rotschreck, the opposing minion
wouldn't even get a chance to declare a strike.
Jozxyqk
That's not true at all.
The default strike is still "hands for 1" even at long range.
You can modify this with claws, or play Pushing the Limit at long, or
whatever.
Only strikes which say "Only usable at close range" are only usable
at close range (i.e. Blood Fury).
tbz_...@hotmail.com
Good, I assumed the qualification in brackets was the contra-
indication. It certainly reads that way.
/me loads up on rotschreck
John "BeAst" Best
LSJ
?
Any Meth (other than the Methuselah whose turn it is) can play Rotschreck on
Ur-Shulgi, since the minion opposing him is attempting to inflict aggravated
damage on him.
Jeroen Rombouts
"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> schreef in bericht
news:4_2dna5UHObm0FHb...@comcast.com...
>> Which to me sounds (and has always sounded) a bit strange. Isn't
>> R?tschreck played after the choose strikes step, but before the
>> resolve strikes step?
>
> No, Rotschreck is played *during* the choose strikes step.
Except for Madness Network, that's just semantics. The end result is the
same, with or without the Network: no strikes actually resolve.
Jeroen Rombouts
"Blooded Sand" <sand...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
>
> Therefore, strikes don't resolve by definition, making the above
> sentence a bit strange.
So technically speaking, if Stanislava is in combat with Ur-shulgi,
and she attempts to strike with agg, for 1, and Ur-shulgi strikes with
scorpions touch, with first strike, then she cannot rothschreck? Even
though because of Rothschreck you never ever actually get to strike
resolution? WTF?
Huh?
Do you really believe that first strike strikes are not resolved during the
resolve strikes step of combat?
Within that step they are before ordinary strikes, but they are still in
that step.
Blooded Sand
wrote:
> "Blooded Sand" <sandm...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
No, I quite s9incerely believe that First strike strikes are resolved
in the resolve strikes phase of combat. However, the problem here is
that LSJ pointed out that the vamp inflicting the agg would have to
have positive, non zero hand damage, and scorpion sting in the above
example would reduce Stanislava's hand damage to 0. So would she still
be able to play the Rot?
Jeroen
I don't have Scorpion's sting's card text here and I don't know it by
heart. But if the reduction in strenght is part of the resolution of
the strike, it only happens in the resolve strikes step. So rotschrek
can be played, because it's played before that step.
LSJ
It doesn't reduce anything (except the effectiveness of dodging).
[ani] Strike: make a hand strike at +1 damage.
[ANI] As above, and this strike cannot be dodged.
XZealot
I think he was refering to Scorpion's Touch.....
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
Right, back to the original example:
A: Stanislava strikes hands for 1 agg.
At this point, A could play Rötschreck.
Assuming he doesn't...
B: Ur-Shulgi strikes Scorpion's Touch at superior.
At this point, A could play Rötschreck, since the Scorpion's Touch hasn't
resolved yet.
tigernat1
> Right, back to the original example:
>
> A: Stanislava strikes hands for 1 agg.
>
> At this point, A could play Rötschreck.
> Assuming he doesn't...
>
> B: Ur-Shulgi strikes Scorpion's Touch at superior.
>
> At this point, A could play Rötschreck, since the Scorpion's Touch hasn't
>
> - Show quoted text -
But if Ur-Shulgi played Scorpion's Touch with First Strike because he
played Shadow Feint before range was determined...wouldn't the
Sporpion's Touch resolve before Stanislava's strike/resolve phase?
*please say yes, please say yes, please say yes, so First Strike isn't
totally useless*
Vegas gNat
LSJ
It would resolve first *if* the combat reaches strike resolution.
But Rötschreck is played before reaching strike resolution (so before the
Shadow-feinted Scorpion's Touch resolves).
tigernat1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Any chance we could reword First Strike to be more like additional
strikes? They happen AND resolve before normal strikes? That way a
minion could "improve" his strike speed to first strike, foregoing his
normal strike speed.
Vegas gNat
tigernat1
>
> Any chance we could reword First Strike to be more like additional
> strikes? They happen AND resolve before normal strikes? That way a
> minion could "improve" his strike speed to first strike, foregoing his
> normal strike speed.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Or how about a Quietus card that gives you an additional strike that
is resolved before normal strikes? It could be played in the same
timing window as immortal grapple or thin blood. That would be cool
and in-theme!!!
Vegas gNat
Kevin M.
> tigernat1 <tigern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Any chance we could reword First Strike to be more like additional
>> strikes? They happen AND resolve before normal strikes? That way a
>> minion could "improve" his strike speed to first strike, foregoing
>> his normal strike speed.
>
> is resolved before normal strikes? It could be played in the same
> timing window as immortal grapple or thin blood. That would be cool
> and in-theme!!!
Already tried during FN playtest (Shadow Feint) and rejected, too-powerful
and scary I heard, but I could be wrong.
Won't ever happen again. Very Sad. :(
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier