Worst. Card. Ever. What is it?
librarian
Three categories:
Crypt
Master
Minion
Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your
case in all your selections; or let the card's own
odiousness speak for itself.
May the worst card win (lose?).
best -
chris
Baaliprimogen
bad. You just have to find the right strategy. But this one. Let your
predator take control of him and bleed you with +1 bleed and DOM.
Still if you play with lots of deflections. I don't think your prey or
predator would mind if Miguel goes to topor after a deflection.
Master: Extremis Boon. Do you plan on being ousted?
Minion: Esteem. Totally useless.
brandonsantacruz
I can't speak for what the worst Vampire is. There are situations you
might want a vampire for it's capacity, strange discipline spread,
etc. For worst crypt card, I'll have to go with the Imbued for not
belonging in VTES conceptually.
Worst minion card:
Cardinal Sin: Mission of Failure
Reaction
Cost: 2 blood
Requires a ready cardinal, archbishop, or regent
Only usable when this vampire has blocked a Sabbat vampire without a
title, before combat begins. Put this card on that vampire. You still
control this card. Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah
may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a (D) action. Any
Sabbat vampire can burn this card as a (D) action.
What does this card require in order to even be played?
1) You need to have a cardinal, archbishop, or regent
2) Said vampire must be ready
3) Another methuselah's minion must be acting
4) The acting minion must be a vamoire
5) The acting vampire must be sabbat
6) That vampire must be untitled
7) Your cardinal, archbishop, or regent must block the acting untitled
sabbat vampire
8) You must play this card pre-combat
9) Pay 2 blood
What's the payoff?
Sabbat vampires controlled by other methuselahs may enter combat with
the blocked vampire.
Too powerful you say? Alright, any sabbat vampire may burn the card as
a D action.
Rather than waste your time with this garbage, how about you just play
intercept combat? You have to block them anyway. No real requirements
on "I attempt to block," where there are at least 9 on CS:I (in
addition to having the card in hand).
Worst master?
There are a lot of good choices for this, many from Ancient Hearts and
Dark Sovereigns. Good choices might include
Pere Lachaise, France
Goodnight, Sweet Prince
Brandon
Kevin M.
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
I've always hated Tusk. He is a much weaker Grendel.
Harrod is really bad.
Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap.
> Master
Pere Lachaise, France is seriously rotten. I dare you to use it.
> Minion
Probably Goth Band.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Meej
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of
which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is only
shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre and
boring special.
> Master
Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The
Spawning Pool. It starts out looking so good, but then... OK, so you
have to pay blood to power it up. Once per turn. Then it requires a
minion to block, a bleed, against you, and for the combat to get to
the second round. With Nosferatu, who if they want to punish you for
bleeding them can probably find better ways to do it than this. I
tried to make this work with a Nos/!Nos hybrid that used Church of the
Order of St. Blaise to power up the Pool, and I could get it big...
but it still sucked.
> Minion
I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia - unless that doesn't
count, since it's not actually a Minion card, but since Events don't
have their own category and it's so horrendously full of suck that
it's essentially unplayable I'm going to go with it anyway. Eyes of
the Dead is pretty darn close, though.
- D.J.
Ruben Feldman
FVicentini
if you think these cards are bad , check out the quietus strike
weakness. strike: burn a disciplin card on the opposing Vampire.
i doubt that happened once in the entire life of vtes. worst card
ever.
Peter D Bakija
That's hard. Even the bad, underpowered minions have *some* sort of
use in some deck somewhere at some point. All the old, Jyhad +1
strength guys are incredibly underpowered (see: Sebastian Marley), as
are some of the just arbitrarily bad DS or AH vampires (see: Judah or
Andrei Puxon). Heck, I even have a deck that makes reasonably good use
of Rex, Necronomist. I think the super worst minions have to be the
ones that have special "abilities" that make them just virtually
unplayable out of the box--Alex Wilkins and Freddy Gage are pretty
bad.
> Master
There are an awful lot of real throwaway masters--Pierre Lachese is a
good one. Threestar Cab Company. I might give props to Club Zombie, as
it *seems* like it is worth using, but paying 4 pool for an
alternating hunting ground/KRCG usually just gets you ousted.
> Minion
Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is
actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at
someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really
underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost of
sending someone to torpor.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Crypt: Miguel Cordovera.
Yeah, that's who was hovering in my mind when writing my last one.
Yeah. He is virtually unplayable--"Hey! I'll play a minion who has +1
bleed and DOM who my predator untaps and takes control of every turn!"
Great.
Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here?
-Peter
Kevin M.
> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>> Crypt
>
> Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of
> which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is
> only shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre
> and boring special.
Thre are multiple game-winning decks on JOL with these two. :)
Kevin M.
> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> Master
> I might give props to Club Zombie, as it *seems* like it is worth
> using, but paying 4 pool for an alternating hunting ground/KRCG
> usually just gets you ousted.
It helps immensely with Parity Shift.
JH
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
Cordovera. I think all the necessary things about this choice were
already said.
> Master
Pere Lachaise, France. Pay 3 pool to waste your MPAs and force one
other methuselah's vampire to take one action.
> Minion
Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed.
Peter D Bakija
> It helps immensely with Parity Shift.
Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with.
Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run
than Club Zombie is.
-Peter
Matthew T. Morgan
You could play with The Diamond Thunderbolt. Or you could just have some
random DOM + whatever guy get a Laptop. Hmm...which is more bother?
Ruben Feldman
Seems pretty powerful with diamond thunderbolt. Your prey can pay a
pool to untap him and give him a blood if you have the card. If not,
your prey puts mre pressure on your small prey - if your deck is fast,
it could be a good thing.
It could also be great if you are in a "lost position" and your prey
is your friend...
> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> Master
> I might give props to Club Zombie, as it *seems* like it is worth
> using, but paying 4 pool for an alternating hunting ground/KRCG
> usually just gets you ousted.
It is one of the only cards that reliably gives you blood which is not
a hunting ground.
It could also be great if you are in a "lost position" and your
predator is your friend... :P
Peter D Bakija
> > Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here?
>
> You could play with The Diamond Thunderbolt. Or you could just have some
> random DOM + whatever guy get a Laptop. Hmm...which is more bother?
Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is
reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond
Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely
going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of
diablere...). So you could get those good stats for a 6 cap who is
going to kill you, *or*, as you note, just use someone else and a
Laptop. Or, well, anything.
I'm usually pretty good at seeing the hidden awesome in bad vampires.
But this guy? I got nothing.
-Peter
echia...@yahoo.com
> Crypt: Miguel Cordovera. Okay usually I think that no vampires are
> bad. You just have to find the right strategy. But this one. Let your
> predator take control of him and bleed you with +1 bleed and DOM.
> Still if you play with lots of deflections. I don't think your prey or
> predator would mind if Miguel goes to topor after a deflection.
Miguel's pretty bad. But at least you can use Diamond Thunderbolt if
you're really worried about him. After the first few times, your
predator is likely to stop trying.
At least he's still better than Hector Trelane and the even worse
Jacob the Glitch. ::sighs::
> Master: Extremis Boon. Do you plan on being ousted?
Actually, Extremis Boon is quite a good card. I've had some good
experiences with it in Limited. Keep meaning to try it more in
Constructed but I never get around to it.
Hoping someone has a Life Boon in their deck (let alone in their hand)
is iffy at best. Packing your own Extremis Boon means you can
eventually draw into it. Usually there will be someone in the game
(usually at least your grandpredator) who will be interested in
keeping you alive. With an Extremis Boon in your hand, you can play
much more aggressively (tapping out, etc.).
> Minion: Esteem. Totally useless.
Yeah, generally it's pretty bad. But occasionally, there are special
circumstances (like the Eden's Legacy storyline) where it becomes
somewhat usable.
Robert Goudie
I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my
list.
Speaking of the high general cost of sending someone to torpor....
How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your
predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and
combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use
Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up.
If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't
likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen
you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your
predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or
she would transfer out. Ugh.
-Robert
echia...@yahoo.com
> Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap.
Lazar is awesome! Fortitude weenie with amazing special. Many times,
my prey has groaned when I bring out Lazar (because it disrupts his
carefully calculated transfers). It's hard to justify including Trick
of the Danya or Cairo International Airport in most Ravnos decks, but
Lazar slots in quite well.
Peter D Bakija
> Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets
Ooh! Yeah, she is pretty horrible. But still, somewhere, there is a
Nec/Tha deck that *loves* her. Or something.
> Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The
> Spawning Pool.
Yeah, it does blow a lot. Ooh! So does Nosferatu Hosting! Get it in
play with Harrod and your prey will *never* have an unknown,
uncontrolled minion! That'll teach them!
Heh. Yeah, Nosferatu Hosting may be the worst master card ever. 1
pool. Use an MPA to look at an uncontrolled minion (clearly the
initial use of a master *and* paying a pool wasn't enough of a cost to
pay for this awesome ability) *and* a built in burn clause? That card
is, like, scientifically designed to suck.
> I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia
Yeah, blows. But it kinda blows simply 'cause it is virtually
impossible to play. If you *could* play it, it is actually pretty
good. Especially for one of those "everyone hates me" Imbued decks
(heck, it would actually be really good in such a deck if it was
"requires 2 other Gehenna cards in play" instead of "2 other Gehenna
cards controlled by other players in play"). It's like the card
editors forgot to make it playable by accident.
-Peter
Wilsoros
He clears your deflections, you get to bleed with him twice...
echia...@yahoo.com
> Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets - 5 cap for 3 disciplines, of
> which no two are in-clan for anyone, and the whole arrangement is only
> shared by one other vampire, Qadir; and on top of that, a mediocre and
> boring special.
Patrizia's weak, but she's still usable. Her special can occasionally
be helpful. Her discipline spread is odd, but is far more usable
nowadays with Anarch cards (qui/tha for CrimethInc for example).
> > Master
>
> Tough call, but I've got a special bit of loathing in my heart for The
> Spawning Pool. It starts out looking so good, but then... OK, so you
> have to pay blood to power it up. Once per turn. Then it requires a
> minion to block, a bleed, against you, and for the combat to get to
> the second round. With Nosferatu, who if they want to punish you for
> bleeding them can probably find better ways to do it than this. I
> tried to make this work with a Nos/!Nos hybrid that used Church of the
> Order of St. Blaise to power up the Pool, and I could get it big...
> but it still sucked.
I'd say the best use for Spawning Pool is with AUS Nosferatu. You're
playing AUS so it shouldn't be hard to block a bleed. Telepathic
Tracking guarantees you get to a second round. ::thump:: Spawning Pool
fun!
> > Minion
>
> I'm going to have to say Becoming of Ennoia - unless that doesn't
> count, since it's not actually a Minion card, but since Events don't
> have their own category and it's so horrendously full of suck that
> it's essentially unplayable I'm going to go with it anyway. Eyes of
> the Dead is pretty darn close, though.
I'll agree with Becoming of Ennoia being bad, since you can't even
play it unless other players are playing Gehenna cards.
Peter D Bakija
> Seems pretty powerful with diamond thunderbolt.
Is POT/DOM worth that much infrastructure? There are plenty of non
inherently stealable minions with POT/DOM or AUS/DOM or DOM/THA. There
are plenty of other minions that can do what he does. But don't
require 10 Diamond Thunderbolt in the deck. Heck, at least Sonja Blue
only costs a pool and has FOR so you can build a whole deck around her
going multi-action crazy.
> It is one of the only cards that reliably gives you blood which is not
> a hunting ground.
Yet costs 4 pool. A few Perfectionists are likely far more reliable.
And less likely to kill you right out just for playing it.
It is a rough card. I know Jay uses it all the time, but I think at
this point, it is just, like, a wacky trademark. But now on further
reflection, I'm leaning on Nosferatu Hosting as the worst master card.
-Peter
echia...@yahoo.com
> > Crypt: Miguel Cordovera.
>
> Yeah, that's who was hovering in my mind when writing my last one.
> Yeah. He is virtually unplayable--"Hey! I'll play a minion who has +1
> bleed and DOM who my predator untaps and takes control of every turn!"
>
> Great.
>
> Yeah, has *anyone* figured out a clever angle here?
A. Diamond Thunderbolt
B. Slap a Perfectionist on Miguel. Play lots of Dummy Corporation.
Each time your predator bleeds you, you reduce it and Miguel actually
gains blood! Or take the bleeds but passing it on with Major Boon (so
Miguel still gains blood).
C. Kiasyd/Tremere deck. Play multiple copies of Steal the Mind on your
own Miguel. So Miguel bleeds you for 0 but he can still bleed other
players.
Yeah, I know. Weak. I'm really *trying* to be an optimist but it's
really hard with Miguel....
Matthew T. Morgan
> Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is
> reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond
> Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely
> going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of
> diablere...).
Now I've got it. You play a deck with a bunch of Deflection, get Miguel,
get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and
burns in the bloodhunt...
...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes
ever!!!
Matthew T. Morgan
> How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your
> predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and
> combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use
> Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up.
> If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't
> likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen
> you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your
> predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or
> she would transfer out. Ugh.
Right every bad card works once and then doesn't work any more. If
anybody is wondering about this moldy, old thing, it's happened. Several
years ago at a local tournament, a not-very-experienced player played it
as he was being bled by his predator's Daring the Dawn unblockable bleed
deck.
Raziel
Miguel is not that bad. Make him red list, burn him and collect
trophies. He have no combat discipline, so cant defend, and you can
use deflection to bleed with him. Ok, he sucks.
wedge
If your deck is built around Chain of Command and he falls into the
group he is a great vampire for the uncontrolled region.
I did not bother with any of the clan hosers.
Crypt: Quinton McDonnell 5 points in disciples, no bounce, no way to
stop combat ends, and no good way to go anarch (which may be his only
positive)
Master: Kingston Penitentiary, Ontario 4 pool hunting ground that can
help the wrong person at the wrong time.
Minion: Death of My Conscience enough said
Matt
Klaital
>
> - Näytä siteerattu teksti -
Hmm lets see what extra crappy stuff can think of...
Crypt: I think I will go with Jacob the Glitch here. Sure he is a 2
cap with THA which is rather nice, but his drawback is just so
horrible that its likely going to totally screw up your game.
Master: Well there is hell of a lot of useless crap masters in the old
sets, but I think I will go with Last Stand. The one time I have
actually seen that card played, it made the predator of the person
playing it to win the game rather directly.
Minion: I still think nothing can beat Up Yours! in terms of
crappiness. Even if you somehow manage to be able to play it, it still
probably doesn't do any more damage than a lucky blow, and costs a
blood too.
Frederick Scott
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:alpine.BSF.2.00.0...@eris.io.com...
Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually
my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed
you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly?
Fred
Frederick Scott
"Wilsoros" <davewi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ab2be4c8-e7ce-42af...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
(Re: How to use Miguel Cordova in a deck.)
> Miguel is awesome... you've not played him if you hate him.
>
> He clears your deflections, you get to bleed with him twice...
Thank you!!! That's what I think.
So many answerers with their stupid Diamond Thunderbolts! This is _so_
much simpler!
christi...@gmail.com
in the masters department, I would say blood puppy
as a minion card, am sure I´m forgetting something, but I would say a
clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art
echia...@yahoo.com
- Minor Boon isn't so bad. It's amazing in Limited. Although it has a
hard time fighting for a deck slot in Constructed, being able to save
a vampire cross-table can be useful. (Especially great when your
predator/prey is a combat deck that miscalculates due to your
unexpected Minor Boon. Also helpful for preventing your grandprey from
dying due to Fame).
- Kingston Penitentiary is certainly playable. It was amazing during
the Return of Nergal storyline. It easily paid for itself (plus a few
additional pool) thanks to the Nergal player (if you recall, Nergal
comes out with very little blood, so the Nergal player paid me tons of
pool to give Nergal blood). If played right, Kingston Penitentiary can
be used to get you pool (often your grandpredator keeping you alive)
or as part of deals (poor man's version of Succubus Club). Kingston
and Extremis Boon add an interesting game theory dynamic (i.e.
chicken) since you can be more reckless with your pool (trying to
force other players to keep you in the game). This tactic may or may
not work, depending on the personalities of the other players.
- Death of My Conscience is super expensive, but what other card can
give you +4 strength at inferior and +8 strength at superior?
(Preferably use with a disposable vampire like an Illusion).
- Someone mentioned Last Stand, which can be quite amazing. When done
right, it can give you the table. (Lately people have been doing
Anthelios + Last Stand tricks).
- I think Club Zombie is quite a good card for wall decks. Intercept
if you need it, if not blood gain. Great if you don't want to take any
actions.
To Peter: Unfortunately your Harrod + Nosferatu Hosting idea is
flawed. Remember that the uncontrolled region is unordered. So even if
you use 100 master phase actions in a row on Nosferatu Hosting, you
could hypothetically end up looking at the same card every single
time. And knowing your luck it'll probably be the same Lithrac each
time... ;-)
Kevin M.
> as a minion card, am sure I�m forgetting something, but I would say
> a clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art
Where is Robyn? She used Nosferatu Performance Art to blow up
**Alexandra** for the tournament win, and I've heard she's blow up
lots of Toreador using this card.
Kevin M.
> Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>>> Minion
>>
>> Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is
>> actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at
>> someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really
>> underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost
>> of sending someone to torpor.
>
> I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my list.
Art owned by Kevin J. Mergen! You want to buy it? :)
Kevin M.
> Master: Well there is hell of a lot of useless crap masters in the old
> sets, but I think I will go with Last Stand. The one time I have
> actually seen that card played, it made the predator of the person
> playing it to win the game rather directly.
It should be played in every heavy bleed deck, and if it goes off
you're looking at bleeding your prey(s) for 40 or more. It's AMAZING.
Obtenebration
How has this not been mentioned? Nakova, Advocate of Golconda . A
vampire's who two best traits are being able to Freak Drive after any
action she tries gets blocked, and punishing an opposing vampire after
burning her in combat deserves mention. Hell anytime your best trait
only kicks in when you are losing, there is a problem. Oh, she can be
an Illusions of the Kindred target at inferior, then Burning Wrath
Master
With all the great mentions above, I'll choose a card I have seen
played. Cairo Int'l Airport. How, in any way, does this lead to
victory? You get it out, breed a ton of your own vampires. Banish
some vampire, your little minions remove it's blood. All the while
you Con Boon to stay alive. In the end you MAY get a VP. While your
grand prey gets the rest. Infact, your best chance at victory is if
you eother misplay the whole deck and just bleed for 1 multiple times,
or never draw a Banish...
Minion
Twisting the Knife.
Then choose the absolute Worst.
Summon the Abyss. And not because it is a BAD card, but anything that
costs 3 blood had better do something at the superior level than add
one stealth to the damn action.
>Minion: Death of My Conscience enough said
>Matt
Well I know what deck is going to LA next trip I make it there.
Smiling Jack XXX
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
>
>
> Minion
>
> Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your
> case in all your selections; or let the card's own
> odiousness speak for itself.
>
> May the worst card win (lose?).
>
> best -
>
> chris
Off the top of my head:
Crypt: Jacob, The Glitch
Master: Contingency Planning
Minion: Border Skirmish
Frederick Scott
news:fbec1f57-fdc1-4ffd...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> > It helps immensely with Parity Shift.
>
> Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with.
> Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run
> than Club Zombie is.
Hey, that's a thought: how 'bout Sniper Rifles with Parity Shift?!?
Use the Sniper Rifles to get below the Parity Shift limit and to
wipe the opposing votes off the table. Use the Parity Shift to
fund the Sniper Rifles.
This is interesting enough I have to suppose it's been thought of
elsewhere. Anyone have any experience with it?
Fred
wedge
wrote:
I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
come on down
Matt
Peter D Bakija
> Miguel is not that bad. Make him red list, burn him and collect
> trophies. He have no combat discipline, so cant defend, and you can
> use deflection to bleed with him. Ok, he sucks.
Well, except that he is only your predator's for your predator's turn.
So you need to make him red list, then your predator needs to steal
him, and then you need to block him, and then you need to burn him.
Yeah, I'll get right on that...
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually
> my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed
> you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly?
Sure. Except you could just play a lot of Deflections in a deck full
of DOM anyway, and *not* give your predator an extra minion with DOM
and +1 bleed every turn. And then lose him to diablere anyway. After
paying 6 pool for him.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Now I've got it. You play a deck with a bunch of Deflection, get Miguel,
> get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and
> burns in the bloodhunt...
>
> ...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes
> ever!!!
Ooh! Now we are talking!
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
<christianpas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Augustus, thats my final vote.
>
> in the masters department, I would say blood puppy
Blood Puppy isn't great, but at least can actually pay off in a real
blocky deck--have some sort of killy Tzimisce deck. Throw Blood Puppy
into play after you have Smiling Jack in play. What are they gonna do?
Get both?
> as a minion card, am sure I´m forgetting something, but I would say a
> clan exlcusive twaker would be, like Nosferatu Performance Art
Nosferatu Performance art is actually pretty good. I mean, yeah,
relatively high opportunity cost, but take an action to put Alexandra
or Anson in torpor? And then diablerize them with a weenie? Not
horrible. Yeah, not incredibly likely to come up, but when it does, it
is likely going to pay off pretty well.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
wrote:
> - I think Club Zombie is quite a good card for wall decks. Intercept
> if you need it, if not blood gain. Great if you don't want to take any
> actions.
Heh, yeah, Club Zombie is actually not *that* bad, but man, the 4 pool
cost is just like saying "Hey! Every predator is a Malk 94 deck now!".
> To Peter: Unfortunately your Harrod + Nosferatu Hosting idea is
> flawed. Remember that the uncontrolled region is unordered. So even if
> you use 100 master phase actions in a row on Nosferatu Hosting, you
> could hypothetically end up looking at the same card every single
> time. And knowing your luck it'll probably be the same Lithrac each
> time... ;-)
Noooooooooooooooo!!!
Damnation. Oh, wait. That makes Nosferatu Hosting even more
specifically designed to be horible. Yeah. That seals it. My vote for
worst Master card is, in fact, Nosferatu Hosting.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
wrote:
> Crypt
> How has this not been mentioned? Nakova, Advocate of Golconda .
There are tons of entertaining, if not actually good, decks that
involve Nakova lighting herself on fire. And to be fair to her, when
she was printed, apparently Pot/For was a ridiculously powerful
discipline combo, and she was one of the few minions who had it.
> Master
> With all the great mentions above, I'll choose a card I have seen
> played. Cairo Int'l Airport. How, in any way, does this lead to
> victory?
Brainwash. It really kills your first prey really bad.
-Peter
Kushiel
people really seen his disadvantage come into play during actual
games? The few times I've seen him played, no one ever bothered to
spend an MPA and a master card to activate his disadvantage, because
doing so was never better than playing the master cards that they put
into their decks to actually, y'know, play for the effects on the
cards.
John Eno
Janne Hägglund
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
Twisting the Knife. There are other worthy candidates, like Eyes of the
Dead, but Twisting wins because of the extra annoyance of taking up a
valuable rare slot in a booster.
> Master
Pere Lachaise, France
> Minion
It's a three-way split.
Most unplayable: Miguel Cordovera
Worst disappointment: Augustus Giovanni
Worst ally: Werewolf Pack
And then the missing categories...
Event:
Becoming of Ennoia. Was only playable in the Gehenna pre-release tournament,
where everybody wanted to try out those shiny new Gehenna cards. Has not
been seen since, not even in Gehenna decks.
Conviction:
No award. There are only three, and they all are awesome.
HG
Janne Hägglund
> librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> writes:
>
> > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
> >
> > Three categories:
> >
> > Crypt
>
> Twisting the Knife. There are other worthy candidates, like Eyes of the
> Dead, but Twisting wins because of the extra annoyance of taking up a
> valuable rare slot in a booster.
>
>
> > Master
>
> Pere Lachaise, France
>
>
> > Minion
>
> It's a three-way split.
>
> Most unplayable: Miguel Cordovera
>
> Worst disappointment: Augustus Giovanni
>
> Worst ally: Werewolf Pack
Argh! Brain glitch: "Crypt" category should be "Minion" and "Minion" should
be "Crypt", and lose the Werewolf Pack. I just read "Minion" and thought it
meant minions instead of minion cards...
HG
Chris Berger
I agree... And on the off-chance that someone decides to clear your
hand jam for you once in a while, I still don't see that it's a big
enough detriment to make you not want to play with a 6-cap with THA
that only costs you 2 pool and 2 transfers to bring into play. Crazy
talk! His special will get you killed against a Harbingers predator.
That's about it. Are people that scared of Harbingers?
Azel
Ennoia is a deserving honorable mention for how Cthulhu-esque it is to
wait for the stars to align right.
Vampire:
Feo Ramos. no real potential for new and unique combos. he's a generic
and wholly replaceable weenie with aus. there's no weirdness or
comborrific-ness such as extra disciplines for capacity, or funky
blood or cap flipping/morphing, or weird title destroying specials, or
a host of other things. it's just a small vampire with aus. that's it.
he has zero potential to stand out, as it stands now, or will have in
the future. completely forgettable and replaceable.
but that's not the problem. the problem is that his penalty kills the
basic functionality of vampires: actions. even his first action can be
destroyed, quite easily and to little detriment, by 1 blood off of any
older Sabbat vampire. playing a table and seeing not even 1 Sabbat
vampire is hard enough, and anything over 1 is to find. not even the
Fida'i lose their first action -- every other action, yes, until you
pay for them -- but not their first. this means Feo can be locked away
early enough to be no real threat (which is one of the huge advantages
of early, small minions), and then booted aside in combat like other
non-combat weenies.
his cap and disciplines brings nothing new to the table, therefore he
has to current or future potential. and his special can leave him
neutered from the beginning, therefore denying the initial utility
every other basic vampire enjoys. after that, he's a resource sink to
bring him up to a functionality that's easily available elsewhere.
Feo Ramos
Clan: Pander (group 3)
Capacity: 1
Disciplines: aus
Sabbat: During your untap phase, any older Sabbat vampire controlled
by another Methuselah can burn 1 blood to tap Feo.
Rarity: Anarchs:U2
Master:
that's a tie between Pere Lachaise and Threestar Cab. both cost way
too much pool to bring out, first off. and then they impose so many
restrictions to recoup investment. Pere Lachaise might just edge the
Cab Company out alone just on the clause to burn it by an action.
however, unlike the relatively simple and common effect that TCC
offers, if again the stars align right Pere Lachaise can have a much
better theoretical pay off.
3 pool for mere crushable dreams of a cheaper big cap (recouping to
zero after the 4th turn for a 3 cap), or 3 pool for a blood/pool 2
more turns later (recouping to zero after the 6th turn)? still, the
burn clause just might hand this whole booby prize to Pere Lachaise.
Pere Lachaise, France
Type: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: unique location.
You may move a vampire from your ash heap to this card, face down. You
may use a master phase action to move 1 blood from the blood bank to
this vampire. If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's
capacity, place the vampire in the ready region at the end of the
master phase and burn this card. Any minion can burn this card as a
(D) action and send the vampire on it directly to the ash heap.
Rarity: DS:U2
Threestar Cab Company
Type: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
Tap during your master phase to move a blood from the blood bank to
this card. Tap during your untap phase to move 1 blood from this card
to your pool or to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can gain
blood from only one hunting ground card each turn.
Rarity: KMW:PAn
Minion:
there's cards that, again, require such an opportunity cost to find a
target that you might as well count your waiting time by solar
eclipses than turns. they just sit in your hand waiting to hose that
one dear, dear target that may occur every other month. i'll call
these cards A.
card A cards are littered throughout the game. Weakness, Violation of
Trust, Purity of the Beast, etc. they are horrible hosers that'll
rarely see play, leaving you disappointed -- if only they wereflexible
like Canine Hordes you might splash it in a deck. it's a reward too
long to wait for to bother reaching for.
then there's cards that produce otherwise accessible effects for too
many restrictions or penalties. they are often so micro-refined as to
be negligibly advantageous. they are "claused to death": the target is
there, but the restrictions or costs stop action upon it. i'll call
these cards B.
card B cards are prolific. Unnatural Disaster, Poison the Well of
Life, Eyes of the Dead, Tortured Confession, Phobia, Mehemet of the
Ahl-i-Batin, etc. they are like a gut punch; doing something you can
already get, but for too much work. it's a reward too far away or
costly to bother reaching for.
finally there's the cards that when played leave you empty with
anticipation. even when you pay for it, it doesn't do much of
anything. i'll call these cards C.
card C cards are a bit rare. basically it's trying to find cards that
produce an effect so tame for their cost, be it in requirements or
restrictions, that it is equivalent to say "play this card. it does
nothing." Weakness, Phobia, Eyes of the Dead, Tara the Hollow One,
Werewolf Pack, and Tortured Confession are pretty prime examples.
but for my bang-for-the-buck suckitude, scraping chrome off a trailer
hitch (giving a nod to class C finalists everywhere), has to be a tie
between Tara and Phobia. Tara actively hurts you for a cost of 3 pool
to sit like a lump waiting to die easily. Phobia goes into play and
then has to wait 5 more turns (easily 1/3 of an average VtES game) to
even hope of going off just once. Tara has future potential in that
she's a Mage, allies might get more cool toys like Leech, and maybe
one day her "burn weapons on your Ravnos to gain them blood" might
actually end up in a new combo. Phobia has zero hope beyond errata.
Tara, The Hollow One (Mage)
Type: Ally
Requires: Ravnos
Cost: 3 pool
Unique mage with 2 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed.
Tara may strike for 1R damage. Tara may burn any equipment card on a
Ravnos as a (D) action. The Ravnos gains blood equal to the cost of
the equipment card. (Ignore excess blood.) If the equipment card has
no cost, then the Ravnos gains 1 blood.
Rarity: DS:U
Phobia
Type: Action
Requires: Serpentis
[ser] (D) Put this card on any vampire; you still control this card.
During your master phase, you may put a phobia counter on this card.
If a minion you control blocks the vampire with this card, you may
burn five counters from this card before range is chosen to end
combat.
[SER] As above, but with +1 stealth.
Rarity: AH:U5 FN:PS
Events:
there can be only one. it is so beautiful in its horror.
it has perhaps one of the most challenging requirements in the game.
you have to wait for the stars to align like any hoser, but you need
2, (count 'em, 2! ah ah ah! - The Count of Sesame Street) Events --
one of the rarer card types to be played. and to throw restrictions
atop requirements, you need Events with a particular trait at that. it
still has a penalty cost atop that: DNR next untap phase! then, if
that wasn't enough, the reward is a minor punishment to other meths --
1 unpreventable damage on 1 vampire per meth's turn -- except it also
comes with another penalty cost, it also hits you. and if that wasn't
enough, it hoses just 1 other card...
it has outrageous opportunity cost. it also has restrictions up the
wazoo. its reward is lame, and also hurts you. and to top it all off,
it's also a hoser... with a restriction so tight it must name its one
and only target. requirements, restrictions, penalties, and little to
no reward, it's all A, B, & C in 1 card... sheer genius!
Becoming of Ennoia
Type: Event
Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase.
Requires at least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other
Methuselahs in play. During each Methuselah's untap phase, he or she
chooses a ready vampire he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1
unpreventable damage. Earth Meld cards cost 2 additional blood.
Rarity: Gehenna:R
Amenophobis
>
> Phobia
> Type: Action
> Requires: Serpentis
> [ser] (D) Put this card on any vampire; you still control this card.
> During your master phase, you may put a phobia counter on this card.
> If a minion you control blocks the vampire with this card, you may
> burn five counters from this card before range is chosen to end
> combat.
> [SER] As above, but with +1 stealth.
> Rarity: AH:U5 FN:PS
I think it has already been mention in the 13 years of its
existence. :)
During playtesting of AH, Phobia gained a counter during *any* master
phase, not just yours. At the time, it was deemed too powerful by the
design crew (note: the same who created Arika, orig. Thougths
Betrayed, PTO, RtI, orig. Tomb of Rameses III, etc.). I'm of the
believe however, that it would be quite fine that way nowadays. You
need to get a bigger reward later on for a card that doesn't do
anything the moment you play it.
Izaak
> Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed.
I can see Esteem being playing with Enticement. Or, um, a rush deck with
Hrotwolf :)
Surely Twisting the Knife is worse than Esteem.
Kevin M.
Peal,
Please post your Border Skirmish deck. :)
Zappo
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > Yeah, see, he has good disciplines (AUS, DOM, POT, THA) and is
> > reasonably cheap (6 cap). But unless you are using enough Diamond
> > Thunderbolts that you always have one when you need it, he is likely
> > going to kill you (or himself due to the horrible guilt of
> > diablere...).
>
> get someone sent to torpor. Get Miguel stolen so he eats that guy and
> burns in the bloodhunt...
>
> ...and then you play Redline for the first time in any game of vtes
> ever!!!
Well, in fact, I actually saw Redline being played twice. In one week.
And few months after that there was still a lot of noise around each
diablerie and bloodhunt. Arguments like "do not let him burn, or he
will just take it with the Redline! We all know he plays them!" we
around all the time.
XZealot
I play with Jacob the Glitch A L O T, and I very rarely see anyone
ever use his special.
...but then again the lifespan of a JtG is about 2 turns before I
social ladder him into Anastaz di Zagreb or Uta Kovak.
XZealot
It still starts off bad, and gets progressively worse as the number of
players dwindles.
XZealot
> > Master
>
> PereLachaise, France
I don't see how people hate this card. This is how you get Augustus
Giovanni into play.
1: Have Augustus in your uncontrolled region
2: Play Pere Lachaise on him
3: Take action to burn Pere Lachaise which burns Augustus Giovanni
4: Possesss Augustus Giovanni into play
It's great for a high cap Possession deck.
Chris Berger
What am I missing here? "You may move a vampire from your ash heap to
this card, face down." How do you play it on him if he's in your
uncontrolled region?
Chris Berger
Nope. Re-read Esteem. It's only usable on a (D) action directed at
the methuselah who has the Edge. Everytime someone brings up how
crappy Esteem is, somebody mentions Enticement. This is the first
I've heard Hrothulf. But both of those require you to have the Edge,
and even if they could be targeted at your own stuff (they can't), it
*still* wouldn't be a (D) action against the methuselah who has the
Edge.
Really, it's just that bad. If it was "Only usable after a successful
action. You gain the Edge.", it would probably be a usable card...
maybe overpowered with Enticement, maybe not.. As it is, it sucks.
Balls.
XZealot
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
Hukros, a vampire that just is aweful.
Cost: 10 pool
Turns to get into play: 3
Multi-Act: Nope
Pass Votes: Nope
Bloat: Nope
Bleed for alot: Nope
Trump Combat: Nope
Block D-Actions not directed at you: Nope
Pretty much there is nothing that you can do with him that you can't
do with just about any given vampire in the game.
> Master
Aggressive Tactics.
Cost: 2 pool
Inflict Pool Damage: Nope
Enhance your minions: Nope
Gain Pool: Nope
Fragile: Yes
Sucktastic!
> Minion
By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to
death.
The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game
to play.
Amenophobis
> > Minion
>
> By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to
> death.
>
> The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game
> to play.
Here, again, the playtest version was different. When played and
vampire went to torpor, prey also burned 1 pool. That was actually...
cool. :)
XZealot
Nevermind, I completely misread the card. I thought it did something
useful like burn a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Thanks for
keeping me from building a deck around it.
Amenophobis
You are actually right on the dwindling effect the longer the game
takes.
However, it woud least have been *playable* and not just an action
without effect.
Amenophobis
> On Dec 4, 12:53 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 4, 1:47 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> > > Minion
>
> > Tortured Confessions. Worst card ever. Not 'cause the effect is
> > actually that bad, I mean, yeah, it is never horrible to look at
> > someone's hand. But the card uses *so* many words to be really
> > underwhelming, considering the blood cost *and* high general cost of
> > sending someone to torpor.
>
> I agree. Even that awesome art isn't enough to keep it off of my
> list.
>
> Speaking of the high general cost of sending someone to torpor....
>
> How about Minor Boon? You have to wait for someone else to send your
> predator's vamp to torpor OR you have to have enough block tech and
> combat tech to knock the vamp down yourself. Then you have you use
> Minor Boon and your own master phase action to prop the vamp back up.
> If you have all of that tech working for you, your predator isn't
> likely to be bleeding you much anyway. And if you're Kevin Mergen
> you'd probably pull all of this off succesfully and lock down your
> predator's bleed deck with Minor Boon across the board and then he or
> she would transfer out. Ugh.
>
> -Robert
Worse, still: Lesser Boon. Seems *pretty* weak and cornercase.
Sufferst from 7-lines syndrom as well.
XZealot
....and Fame cost the prey of the vampire going to torpor 3 pool
instead of the controller
Reverend_Black
Lazar Dobrescu is NOT bad. He's a given vampire in all my old Ravnos
crypts. It's not that his special ability is a gamewinner but as long
as you bring him out early it's a great way to piss off your prey and
sometimes slow him down a little.
Myrdin
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
your influenve phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
During your prey`s discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to
move Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove
her from the game.
She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time.
>
> Master
Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R]
Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy.
During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your
pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy
to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and
all the blood on it as a (D) action.
Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it
still sucks.
>
> Minion
Twisting the Knife, Combat, 1 blood, Potence, R , [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
[pot] Only usable as damage from a hand or melee weapon strike is
resolved; only usable if this vampire inflicts 3 or more damage. He or
she inflicts an additional point of damage. Only one Twisting the
Knife may be played by a vampire during a strike phase.
[POT] As above, with an optional press.
I'm surprised noone mentioned this card, worst rare ever printed and
then reprinted.
/Ivan
Peter D Bakija
> Hukros, a vampire that just is aweful.
Yeah, not great, but a weird discipline spread that probably fits in
some deck somewhere.
I'm firmly standing on the platform of vampires just having not enough
disciplines or lame specials or whatever isn't enough to make them
awful. Just being short a few points of disciplines isn't enough to
really, truly suck. The vampires that are really bad are the ones with
the really shooting you in the foot specials. Miguel is currently the
leader. Until someone discovers a really clever way to make him work.
> By far the worst minion card is Phobia, and it has been beaten to
> death.
Yeah, that card is, in fact, horrible.
> The next worst card is Mummify which actually detrimental to your game
> to play.
Well, to be fair to Mummify, when it was printed, it was actually
moderately useful--Fame your own guy, Mummify to torpor, your prey
loses 3 pool. Lather, rinse, repeat.
-Peter
Curevei
> Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> Three categories:
>
> Crypt
>
>
> Minion
>
> Then choose the absolute Worst. Feel free to state your
> case in all your selections; or let the card's own
> odiousness speak for itself.
>
> May the worst card win (lose?).
>
> best -
>
> chris
Since it's difficult to define what worst means and/or a whole bunch
of cards effectively tie, I kind of like trying to pick out the cards
that hurt you the most if you actually choose to play with them.
Sure, a card such as Phobia is essentially taking an action to do
nothing, but that doesn't likely substantially increase my chances of
losing as say, Walks-With-Might might.
Miguel is a good candidate for vampire by that criteria. As to
library cards, eh, I'm too lazy for a change to look.
Janne Hägglund
> On 4 Dec, 19:47, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
> >
> > Three categories:
> >
> > Crypt
> Sonja Blue, 5, dom pot CEL FOR PRE, Ventrue, 4, [KMW:U]
> Independent: Gain 4 pool when Sonja is moved to the ready region in
> your influenve phase. Sonja may remove a vampire's title as a (D)
> action. She may block as an ally (but remains a vampire in combat).
> During your prey`s discard phase, your predator may burn 1 pool to
> move Sonja to his or her ready region. If Sonja leaves play, remove
> her from the game.
>
> She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time.
There's an actual tournament winning deck that's based on Sonja Blue:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9pbla1
> > Master
> Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R]
> Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy.
> During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your
> pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy
> to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and
> all the blood on it as a (D) action.
>
> Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it
> still sucks.
>
> >
> > Minion
> Twisting the Knife, Combat, 1 blood, Potence, R , [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
> [pot] Only usable as damage from a hand or melee weapon strike is
> resolved; only usable if this vampire inflicts 3 or more damage. He or
> she inflicts an additional point of damage. Only one Twisting the
> Knife may be played by a vampire during a strike phase.
> [POT] As above, with an optional press.
>
> I'm surprised noone mentioned this card, worst rare ever printed and
> then reprinted.
I did, and cited the rarity as the reason I chose it. Thanks for reminding
of the reprinting, though.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/50b9ccafdd577c16
HG
BobbyDoc
Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires.
When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play
Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my
blocking attempts.
For those moments I choose not to block, I know I have a backup plan
in form of Pere Lachaise!
And the real killer; also if I choose not to block, Patrizia Giovanni
can get those Servants back !!
TWDA here I come!
Robert
XZealot
Sure you could play it with Return to Innocence.
Chris Berger
Even if you were serious, and even if that would be a playable deck,
it's made instantly better if you replace Eyes of the Dead with The
Deadliest Sin. Yeah, Eyes of the Dead is really THAT bad. There's a
discplineless card that's flat out better in every way.
That's also why Twisting the Knife is so bad. It's not as clear as
Eyes of the Dead, because TtK offers a press at superior and has a
slightly different (harder to fulfill in general) condition for it to
be played. But to add insult to injury, it actually costs a blood,
which I never remember until I look up the card and realize just how
horrible it is.
Mummify is bad, but it's not that bad simply because it offers a free
S:CE and untap to serpentis. Usually ser is matched up with pre, so
you're better off spending 1 blood for Majesty. But I've actually
made a deck with weenie settites that use Mummify for combat defense,
and while the deck isn't great, Mummify actually is the best card for
the deck.
Chris Berger
>
> Blood Puppy, Master, 3 pool, R , [Jyhad:R, V:TES:R, CE:R]
> Unique master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to the Blood Puppy.
> During your untap phase, you can move a blood from the Puppy to your
> pool, move a blood from the blood bank to the Puppy, or burn the Puppy
> to move all its blood to your pool. Any minion can burn the Puppy and
> all the blood on it as a (D) action.
>
> Hated it since day 1, never got the card and even with the change it
> still sucks.
>
Blood Puppy only costs 2 pool now. And I still contend that it is
useful poolgain in a wall deck, alongside the Powerbases. I mean,
it's not a *good* card, but I don't think it's a bad card either now
that they reduced the cost.
Peter D Bakija
> > She's so awesome and so crappy at the same time.
>
> There's an actual tournament winning deck that's based on Sonja Blue:
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k9pbla1
Yeah, see, Sonja Blue has enough going for her that building a whole
deck around her is worth the effort. I mean, not worth the effort
enough such that she is tearing up the tournament scene or anything,
but enough that people try--she has FOR CEL so she can take a hundred
actions a turn *and* she only costs 1 pool to play. Make a deck with,
like, 6 or 7 of her, and include a dozen Diamond Thunderbolts and you
have a deck.
Miguel? What is he doing that another mid cap with DOM isn't doing?
Other than getting stolen, having all his blood pulled off with
Heidleburg, or diablerizing someone?
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Sure you could play it with Return to Innocence.
Well, yes. But, ya know, when looking at bad cards, it is really only
fair to look at them in the context of what they were released into.
Yeah, some cards have *always* been bad. Some cards started out kind
of sketchy and corner case, but had a place in the world, but then
were *made* bad by the game changing around them.
Cards like Mummify (which had an arguable strategy around it when it
was printed, with old Fame) and Nakova (who was one of the very few
Pot/For vampires in the game of a reasonable capacity when she came
out) suck now, sure, but when they were originally printed, they had
something to recommend them. Phobia, on the other hand, always
sucked :-)
-Peter
Frederick Scott
news:a7f438b3-7b21-4be2...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 4, 7:03 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > Seriously, though, "play a deck with a bunch of Deflection" was actually
> > my thought. If your predator wants to spend pool using him to bleed
> > you, won't a few deflections discourage the habit pretty quickly?
>
> Sure. Except you could just play a lot of Deflections in a deck full
> of DOM anyway, and *not* give your predator an extra minion with DOM
> and +1 bleed every turn.
Why? That's not as a good - you aren't as likely to get bled by your
predator to have a +1 bleed to deflect. If you take pains to make sure
you have Deflections in your hand, it's comforting to know your
Predator will have a good +1 bleeder that he'll be tempted to use.
On the other hand, if he starts seeing the problem and stops using
Miguel to bleed, that means you have Miguel's advantages without his
disadvantages, which I assert, is also good.
> And then lose him to diablere anyway. After paying 6 pool for him.
Um, that part's just a tad speculative. :-P
Fred
Frederick Scott
"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:YjjSm.10476$Lq5....@newsfe20.iad...> news:fbec1f57-fdc1-4ffd...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 4, 4:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>> > It helps immensely with Parity Shift.
>>
>> Sure. But so do other cards that are actually worth playing with.
>> Heck, even Secret Horde is more likely to pay you back in the long run
>> than Club Zombie is.
>
> Hey, that's a thought: how 'bout Sniper Rifles with Parity Shift?!?
> Use the Sniper Rifles to get below the Parity Shift limit and to
> wipe the opposing votes off the table. Use the Parity Shift to
> fund the Sniper Rifles.
>
> This is interesting enough I have to suppose it's been thought of
> elsewhere. Anyone have any experience with it?
Damn it, I meant Assault Rifles!
(Stupid brain. STUPID, stupid brain!!!)
Frederick Scott
news:828fe98f-9716-43a1...@r1g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>I have this amazing idea. I will create a deck there I plan to recruit
> Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires.
> When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play
> Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my
> blocking attempts.
Wow! Maybe it's a sign of my breathtaking incompetance as a deckbuilder
but I actually tried to build a Faithful-Servant-torped-minion-deck.
Of course, using Eyes of the Dead and jedi mind tricks to lure my
opponents into a trap didn't have anything to do with it. It was more
about pure bloat: secure your torped minion with Carver's Meat Packing,
slap Blood Dolls/Vessels onto it, and reap more blood from tapping the
CMPaS. I never did quite figure out a good deck but I suspect there
could be something there for a more talented deckbuilder.
Fred
Frederick Scott
I thought they'd issued the errata on Fame long before Ancient Hearts
was printed. My memory was that Fame was one of the first bits of
errata that came out in this game. I don't think it took them very
long to figure out the problem with how original Fame worked. (And
it was a problem even in the context of just the cards in Jyhad, let
alone any expansions.)
Fred
Peter D Bakija
> I thought they'd issued the errata on Fame long before Ancient Hearts
> was printed.
I think it was errated unique very early (possibly). I'm pretty sure
it didn't become what it is now till 7/7/7 (I remember spending an
awful lot of time discussing the implications of New Fame on Rush
decks...) So I'm pretty sure that when Mummify was printed, Mummify/
Fame was a good ousting mechanism. Kind of.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Damn it, I meant Assault Rifles!
>
> (Stupid brain. STUPID, stupid brain!!!)
Oh, heh, yeah, that is a pretty common rush archetype--Nosferatu
royalty disguising out Assault Rifles and Parity Shifting back or
something. The current good one is the one that uses Dimitra (obf for
the Disguised, CEL/FOR for multi action and general combat support,
Justicar for 2nd and Parity Shift). I mean, it has a lot of moving
parts and a lot of opportunity to fall on its face, but in general, a
solid idea.
-Peter
LSJ
History of Fame:
19940924 Multiples are not cumulative.
19941128 Multiples are cumulative.
19950413 Is unique.
19950801 V:TES: Is unique.
*
19980707 The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool.
20001031 SW: The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool.
* 19960529 AH (Mummify) printed.
Peter D Bakija
> History of Fame:
> 19940924 Multiples are not cumulative.
> 19941128 Multiples are cumulative.
> 19950413 Is unique.
> 19950801 V:TES: Is unique.
> *
> 19980707 The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool.
> 20001031 SW: The controller, not her prey, burns 3 pool.
>
> * 19960529 AH (Mummify) printed.
Yaa! Good to know I'm not insane. Well, not on this front, at least.
Wasn't 7/7/7 in '97 and not '98? Or was it actually '98 and is is just
7/7 and not 7/7/7? That is easy to misremember :-)
Thanks,
-Peter
The Lasombra
>Wasn't 7/7/7 in '97 and not '98? Or was it actually '98 and is is just
>7/7 and not 7/7/7? That is easy to misremember :-)
All of the upheaval happened in 1998.
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR6-23.htm
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR7-7.htm
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR9-28.htm
7/7 refers to 98.
See also:
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules.htm
Carpe noctem.
The Lasombra
Your best source of V:TES information.
Now also selling boxes and individual cards.
Peter D Bakija
> All of the upheaval happened in 1998.
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR6-23.htm
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR7-7.htm
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR9-28.htm
>
> 7/7 refers to 98.
Ok, cool. So for the span of 2 years, Mummify was a reasonable, if
kinda corner case, ousting mechanism (i.e. Fame your own guy, do
something, get blocked, Mummify to torpor and make your prey lose 3
pool). So I call Mummify exempt from "Worst. Card. Ever."
consideration, as it started out at least somewhat useful, and only
got horrible 'cause the game changed under it.
Phobia is still open game, however :-)
-Peter
Frederick Scott
news:hfgpj1$s3t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Oh, that's what the early errata was: the uniqueness thing. (I didn't
remember anything about the cumulative/not cumulative stuff.) It seems
so hard to believe, now, that putting Fame on your own minion would be
good for ousting your prey for that long a time.
Fred
AbandonedFROG
> librarian wrote:
> > Worst. Card. Ever. A little contest, just for fun.
>
> > Three categories:
>
> > Crypt
>
>
> Harrod is really bad.
>
> Lazar Dobrescu is pretty bad, but at least he's a 3-cap.
>
>
> Pere Lachaise, France is seriously rotten. I dare you to use it.
>
> > Minion
>
> Probably Goth Band.
>
> Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
> "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
> you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
> "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
> Please visit VTESville daily!http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
> Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Seriously, hate for Goth Band, have you no poetry in your soul?
And I shall take up the Pere Lachaise, France gauntlet, I'll probably
fail but hey could be fun.
John P.
> I have this amazing idea. I will create a deck there I plan to recruit
> Faithful Servants and then go to torpor with my vampires.
> When my fellow Methuselahs will try to diablerize my vamp I can play
> Eyes of the Dead to totally ruin their plans when trying to stealth my
> blocking attempts.
> TWDA here I come!
> Robert
To tease squidalot at Orgins two years ago I had concocted a highly
improbable
deck that used lots of faithful servants to gain pool. We have this
continuing argument
where he tells me my decks suck, tells me how to build better decks,
and then
I ignore him to play some idiotic baltimore purge deck or whatever..
So the deck would be weenines that went and got faithful servants and
then got themselves
into torpor with daring the dawn, or day operation, whatever where
they would be protected
by my own hostage counters of Carver's meat packing plant. Carvers
would generate
blood for whatever vampire of mine was not in torpor and vessles would
suck blood off
off the vampires in torpor.
I amused myself in a Dark Soverigns draft at Darkbob's place
afterwards by drafting like 3-4 faithful servants for this totally
awesome deck
that did nothing but generate pool. I was still trying to figure out
how to oust people
though as it involved putting all but one of my vampires into torpor
and keeping them there
Some things though are probably better left unmentioned.
John P.
Winnipeg
John P.
> "BobbyDoc" <robert_dokto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
See? I should read the whole thread before posting. Fred wanted to do
the same stuff with faithful servants that I did. That's kinda scary.
We probably both need help.
Malone
> On Dec 5, 7:12 am, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote:
>
> > > Esteem. Absolutely useless. If you want the edge, just bleed.
>
> > I can see Esteem being playing with Enticement. Or, um, a rush deck with
> > Hrotwolf :)
>
> > Surely Twisting the Knife is worse than Esteem.
>
> Nope. Re-read Esteem. It's only usable on a (D) action directed at
> the methuselah who has the Edge. Everytime someone brings up how
> crappy Esteem is, somebody mentions Enticement. This is the first
> I've heard Hrothulf. But both of those require you to have the Edge,
> and even if they could be targeted at your own stuff (they can't), it
> *still* wouldn't be a (D) action against the methuselah who has the
> Edge.
>
> Really, it's just that bad. If it was "Only usable after a successful
> action. You gain the Edge.", it would probably be a usable card...
> maybe overpowered with Enticement, maybe not.. As it is, it sucks.
> Balls.
Form of Corruption. Regaining the Upper Hand. Voter Captivation.
Corruption. Cave of Apples. Esteem. Enticement.
Nefertiti. Khaytal. Aabbt. Summon the Serpent.
Dasein
Probably Appolonius. Miguel is not horrible at all if you are playing
a deck with a lot of flicks.
> Master
Yeah Nosferatu Hosting is pretty terrible, especially as it requires
an MPA. And uncontrolled region is randomised, so you don't even know
if you're looking at another copy of the same vampire, or the same
card as you saw before.
> Minion
Ah so many glorious choices!
Although it's possibly not as bad as Eyes of the Dead or Tortured
Confession or Death of my Conscience, I'm going to share some lovin
for Code of Milan Suspended.
Required Sabbat. Requires a vote to pass. Does ONE pool damage, and
only to the player with the edge, which is the player LEAST likely to
have the edge in your minion phase. And does them one pool, whereas
you could have played a KRC and throw a bunch of damage wherever the
hell you like.
I guess the only advantage of it is that if it is down to a 2 player
game, it is a damaging vote you can call that won't hurt yourself.
Chaitan
The Deadliest Sin
Eyes of the Serpent
Mummify
Purity of the Beast
Realm of the Black Sun, The
Conflict of Interests
Faithful Servant
Goodnight, Sweet Prince
Of Noble Blood
Pere Lachaise, France
Tara, The Hollow One (Mage)
Tradition Upheld
Ancient Hearts and Dark Sovereigns has the biggest collection of
craptastic cards.
However, Mercy for the Weak stands out for me. If you have more blood
than the opponent (read: few-discipline weenies/midcap can't use it)
you can for 2 blood and giving opponent one of them use the most
overpowered ability of them all: A non-discipline Strike: Combat Ends!
Minion: Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets (also Ancient Hearts)
Master: Aggressive Tactics or Spontaneous Power
Chris Berger
how sucky that combo is. If you're playing Form of Corruption/
Regaining, then just play that. Adding Corruptions into the same deck
is stupid. Or if you're playing Corruption/Revelation of Ecstasy/Cave
of Apples, which is a better deck than the Regaining/Form one (trust
me, I tried it... you're way better off using Free States Rant as the
vote), then just do that, preferrably with multi-acting.
Giving the edge to your prey just so you can play Esteem does not make
Esteem good.
Peter D Bakija
> Master: Aggressive Tactics or Spontaneous Power
Really? Spontaneous Power? I mean, not the best card ever, but not a
horrible way to give someone one of those hard to get bloodlines
disciplines.
-Peter
Matthew T. Morgan
> Miguel is not horrible at all if you are playing
> a deck with a lot of flicks.
A smart predator will realize that's what you want and will take Miguel
and do something you don't want done with him, like Bum's Rush a War
Ghoul, diablerize and burn, rescue someone from torpor, call a vote, steal
your Rack, etc., etc.
Chris Berger
I'm considering all this Miguel talk to be a challenge to build a deck
around him. Lots of Deflections, bleeds, a smattering of Diamond
Thunderbolts. Blood Dolls/Vessels so you can - a) keep him at 5 blood
for when you Diamond Thunderbolt him, and b) empty him if you're
deathly afraid of him being stolen on a particular turn. (and c) gain
pool, obviously.) Maybe Redline for when he diabs? Although the free
rush that gives him is annoying...
But then, there's still the issue of, you can't really stop him being
blocked by your prey and tooled when you deflect his bleed. It would
work with Daughters of Cacophany and the stealthy opera house... but
they don't have any dominate.
Hmm... yeah, I guess maybe he really does suck that much. But all of
you people hating on Jacob the Glitch are on crack!
Peter D Bakija
> A smart predator will realize that's what you want and will take Miguel
> and do something you don't want done with him, like Bum's Rush a War
> Ghoul, diablerize and burn, rescue someone from torpor, call a vote, steal
> your Rack, etc., etc.
Yeah, exactly--I mean, like, yeah, he has DOM and can bleed at +1,
which you can bounce. But instead, why not take him and Hiedelburg all
his blood off or go diablerize someone and be outraged at his
treachery?
He is simply too vulnerable to getting done wrong for 1 pool. Again,
maybe there is a super sneaky trick that makes him worth using
somewhere somehow. But as just a 6 cap with some not real spectacular
disciplines (in the sense that you can get the same disciplines most
of the time for 6 pool anyway--Selena--unless you are really using the
POT, and there are better places to get POT/DOM or POT/AUS or even POT/
THA that aren't hugely debilitating), just not worth the effort.
-Peter
Janne Hägglund
Especially when you combo it with Ian Forestal or Agent of Power for a
*superior* hard to get bloodlines discipline...
I'd say it's like Club Zombie: useful, but costly.
(Sure, Infernal Pact is better and cheaper, but that's only for !Tremere.)
HG