Immortal Grapple

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Biomech8

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Nov 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM11/10/95
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In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.951109231718.15831F-100000@ccserver>, Algustas
<cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes:

>An interesting question came up in our game tonight. How long does
immortal >grapple work?

The card wording is not specific, since the card does not say lasts until
the end of combat one might assume that it doesn't. Since the vampire
playing the card cannot be hit with anything other than a hand strike, I
would assume it carries over through additional strikes. Since the
greater ability affects the next round of combat (combat is at close) I
would like to think that it carries over throughout the combat (especially
since it is a rare, and one of the few ways of getting around nasty things
like S:CE, weapons etc.) Of course this is all simply opinion :-)
Let's see what Tom has to say about this one :-)

~Biomechanoid

Wallpaper Paste

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Nov 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM11/11/95
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Biomech8 (biom...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.951109231718.15831F-100000@ccserver>, Algustas
: <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes:

: >An interesting question came up in our game tonight. How long does
: immortal >grapple work?

From the way the card reads in my interpretation, the only hand
strike effect lasts through the current round of combat,
including additional strikes. At superior, the card grants one
optional press. If combat continues to another round, the
combat is automatically at close range, so no maneuver phase
occurs. The other effect does not continue into the second
round, nor is the combat automatically at close range if played
at normal. An additional Immortal Grapple could, of course, be
played second round without the worry of your opponent
maneuvering out of the situation. Continue until your hand
runs out of Immortal Grapples or your bank account runs out of
money buying the rare card. Hope this helps.

-Wallpaper Paste
for all those 'useless' cards

PDB6

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Nov 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM11/11/95
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The text of Imortal Grapple says:

"...Only hand strikes can be made against or by the vampire using Imortal
Grapple."

It does not say "...for only this strike" or anything, so one would assume
that once the card is played, only hand strikes can be used for the entire
combat. If this is not the case, Imortal Grapple becomes a MUCH less
useful card, and the Nosferatu become even more screwed ( Sebastian would
become very sad. By the way, he's lookin for the guy who said he was
useless too...)

-Peter D Bakija

Thomas R Wylie

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Nov 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM11/13/95
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The normal effect of Immortal Grapple (allowing hand strikes only) lasts for
the entire combat. This is made explicit in the VTES text. The bonus for
using superior only occurs once, as it says.


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


L. Scott Johnson

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Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
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In article <486u2q$n...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,

Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>The normal effect of Immortal Grapple (allowing hand strikes only) lasts for
>the entire combat. This is made explicit in the VTES text. The bonus for
>using superior only occurs once, as it says.

So, on the second round, the minions are still locked in a grapple, but
able to maneuver to long range? Interesting.

The superior forces the second round to continue at close, indicating
to me that the inferior did not extend to anything but the current round,
whereas the superior forced only hand strikes the initial round, and
forced simply close range, any strike (as the opposing minion squirms free)
on the second round.

That makes a logical picture, and fits the (Jyhad) card text.

Grappling is a H2H effect, and you can't fight H2H at long range.
If long range is possible, the grapple must've been broken.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Thomas R Wylie

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Dec 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/14/95
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L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>The superior forces the second round to continue at close, indicating
>to me that the inferior did not extend to anything but the current round,

The VTES text, which I referred to in the original post, says
"Only hand strikes may be used in this combat." I don't see how the
duration of the effect could be any clearer.

Jonathan G. Sushinsky

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Dec 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/14/95
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>
>The VTES text, which I referred to in the original post, says
>"Only hand strikes may be used in this combat." I don't see how the
>duration of the effect could be any clearer.
>
>
>Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
>


The group I play with has questioned whether a dodge can be used when
Immortal Grapple is played. I have always said no because "only hand
strikes may be used in this combat," and dodge is not a hand strike, but
the question still comes up whenever we play. Thanks in advance to
anyone who can clear this up for us.

jon


PDB6

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Dec 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/14/95
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Immortal Grapple, which is a very boss card, works like this:

Once range is determined to be at close in the first round of combat (i.e.
after manuvers have been performed), a minion can play Immortal Grapple.
Once Immortal Grapple has been played, both minions can only use hand
strikes for the _remainder_of_combat_, so any additional strikes in that
combat must be hand strikes, and if combat continues for another round,
range is not determined (it stays locked at close) and still only hand
strikes can only be used.

If the combat continues into a second round, there is no manuver phase.
You can't play a manuver card. You can't use a gun to manuver. Nothing.
No manuvers. Range is automatically at close.

While two vampires are in an Immortal Grapple, only hand strikes may be
used. This means you can use any card that says " strike with hand... "
such as Undead Strength, or a previously Torn off Signpost, or punch with
basic hand damage, and even use Claws of The Dead, as it modifies your
hand damage. You can even use a card for additional strikes (like Blur),
as long as all the additional strikes are also hand strikes. You can not,
on the other hand, use any Dodges, or Strike: Combat Ends, or any other
strike that is not a hand strike. Keep in mind that even the default "1
hand damage" punch that all vamps can use is a strike, even if no card is
played.

It is perfectly acceptable to play Torn Signpost, manuver as to stay at
close range, play Immortal Grapple, then use Undead Strength to strike for
5 damage (assuming superior Potence) that can not be Dodged or avoided by
S:CE, then Blur and beat the victim twice more. If they are still alive,
you can press, and do it again, an still, they can not Dodge or S:CE, as
Immortal Grapple lasts for the entire combat.

This would make Immortal Grapple look to be a very powerful card, but it
can be avoided by manuvering to long range, and staying there, using
Fortitude to prevent all the damage (Skin of Steel does wonders against
even the best planned Immortal Grapple based attack), or also using
Potence to beat any fool who Grapples you senseless. Then there is
Thoughts Betrayed, which will prevent all of this foolishness.

Immortal Grapple is best for preventing S:CE, Dodges, and guns. As a gun
is not a hand strike, it can not be used in an Immortal Grapple. Not even
in an additional strike or on the second round of combat. No guns. No
Dodges either. They are also not hand strikes. They are Strike: Dodges.
Not even a S:CE. Just a hand strike.

There is a question as to what would happen if minion A uses a gun to
manuver to long range and then minion B manuvers to close range and
Immortal Grapples minion A. Because minion A used the gun to manuver,
they must use the gun to strike, but because Immortal Grapple has been
played, only hand strikes can be used. Presumably, the minion who used
the gun to manuver would get no strike at all in this situation, as they
are commited to using the gun (as they used its manuver), but can only use
hand strikes, due to Immortal Grapple. Thus, they loose.

Hope this explains everything.
-Peter D Bakija

Ewok

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Dec 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/14/95
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Jonathan G. Sushinsky thoughtfully stated:
: The group I play with has questioned whether a dodge can be used when
: Immortal Grapple is played. I have always said no because "only hand
: strikes may be used in this combat," and dodge is not a hand strike, but
: the question still comes up whenever we play. Thanks in advance to
: anyone who can clear this up for us.

IG serves to cancel the effects of S:CE cards, so I'm sure it works
on dodges. As Tom said: Only hand strikes! Enjoy!

Ewok
--
//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\
/ Ewok Juan Burwell \
\ jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu jmbu...@amherst.edu /
\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\//

Thomas R Wylie

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Dec 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/17/95
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PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote:
>There is a question as to what would happen if minion A uses a gun to
>manuver to long range and then minion B manuvers to close range and
>Immortal Grapples minion A. Because minion A used the gun to manuver,
>they must use the gun to strike, but because Immortal Grapple has been
>played, only hand strikes can be used. Presumably, the minion who used
>the gun to manuver would get no strike at all in this situation, as they
>are commited to using the gun (as they used its manuver), but can only use
>hand strikes, due to Immortal Grapple. Thus, they loose.

Correct.

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