LSJ: 2 questions
Justin Fang
The Ghouled Street Thug normally can't make hand strikes, but can it make
them (for base 2 damage each) if it uses a Torn Signpost? Actually, now
that I think about it, what happens if an ally without a listed hand damage
uses a weapon that says "+N hand damage"?
If Meshenka gets a hold of the Ankara Citadel, do you subtract one from and
then halve her costs for Vicissitude cards, or halve them and then subtract
one?
Thanks in advance.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@ugcs.caltech.edu)
This space intentionally left blank.
LSJ
Justin Fang wrote:
>
> The Ghouled Street Thug normally can't make hand strikes, but can it make
> them (for base 2 damage each) if it uses a Torn Signpost?
Yes.
> Actually, now
> that I think about it, what happens if an ally without a listed hand damage
> uses a weapon that says "+N hand damage"?
<nothing> + X = <nothing>
Adding damage to a non-damage-dealing strike has no effect. [RTR]
> If Meshenka gets a hold of the Ankara Citadel, do you subtract one from and
> then halve her costs for Vicissitude cards, or halve them and then subtract
> one?
Halve and then subtract one.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
SirTemple
><nothing> + X = <nothing>
Mathmatically, 0+X=X
This may not be the case in the game, but that's a fundimental law of addition.
Actually it's called the Identity Rule of Addition.
Jason
David Gausebeck
Well yes, but the idea is that the strike is not 0 hand damage to
start with. It's zero of something else, which is not hand damage at
all. So adding hand damage doesn't change the amount of damage that it
does.
0+X = X only if they're quantities of the same units.
0 seconds + X kilograms is still 0 seconds, insofar as the expression
still makes sense.
Jasper Phillips
In article <199803261612...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
SirTemple <sirt...@aol.com> wrote:
>><nothing> + X = <nothing>
>
>Mathmatically, 0+X=X
>This may not be the case in the game, but that's a fundimental law of addition.
> Actually it's called the Identity Rule of Addition.
>
Except that <nothing> != 0
This isn't a mathmatical construction assertion, but merely an that
If you can't do a hand strike, being able to do greater damage when
you do one is meaningless.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
LSJ
SirTemple wrote:
>
> ><nothing> + X = <nothing>
>
> Mathmatically, 0+X=X
That's true everywhere. Including in VTES.
Unfortunately, allies do not have zero hand damage - they have
no hand strike at all and no hand damage (unless card text
says otherwise).
Similarly, strikeing with a Rowan Ring does no damage, not just
zero damage. Using Lucky Blow on a Rowan Ring strike still
does no damage since <nothing> +1 = <nothing>. [RTR]
Scott Halvorson
Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1. This is
the way the factorial function is defined for 0. Also, with 0 + X = X, yes, they
have to be of the same units, otherwise, they won't add together. It is just like
adding the proverbial apples to the proverbial oranges. They're oil and water;
they don't mix. I liked the comparison to adding 0 seconds to X kilometers. This
makes no sense, since their units are different.
Scott Halvorson
math teacher and Jyhad player
Jasper Phillips wrote:
> In article <199803261612...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> SirTemple <sirt...@aol.com> wrote:
> >><nothing> + X = <nothing>
> >
> >Mathmatically, 0+X=X
ber...@cco.caltech.edu
Warning... this post doesn't add anything to any discussion. Its purposes are
only a) pedantry, and b) cluttering up the newsgroup. Thank you, please drive
through.
> Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1.
>
To be further pedantic, while it is true that 0! = 1, it is also true that
0 != 1, and 0 != 42. An exclamation point followed by an equals sign is the C
symbol for 'not equal to', which I feel was represented better in BASIC by the
opposed inequality signs ('<>'). Not that it matters. In any case, we are
arguing that <nothing> != 0. In this case, <nothing> is more equivalent to
the X of tri-valued logic systems. Where 0 is off, 1 is on, and X is
indeterminate, or not connected.
> This is the way the factorial function is defined for 0. Also, with 0 + X =
> X, yes, they have to be of the same units, otherwise, they won't add
> together. It is just like
> adding the proverbial apples to the proverbial oranges. They're oil and
> water; they don't mix. I liked the comparison to adding 0 seconds to X
> kilometers. This makes no sense, since their units are different.
>
But in that case, you would have 0 second and X kilometers. If this analogy
were carried over to the hand damage thing, a Ghouled Street Thug with a
Bastard Sword would do 1R damage + 1 regular damage. This is obviously not
what happens. A Ghouled Street Thug actually does 0 damage with a Bastard
Sword. Another argument is harder to dismiss. That one being that a minion
without hand damage cannot make a hand strike. Thus, using Undead Strength
with that minion will still not allow a hand strike, and so no hand damage is
done. But with a Bastard Sword, the minion makes a weapon strike, so it seems
he should still be able to do 1 damage with the Sword. But not according to
the Rules Team. It's been said over and over again that a weapon strike is
not a hand strike, so why can't the Thug simply make a strike for hand damage
(nothing) + 1 with the Sword? I don't know. It's just "the way things are."
I guess you could say that a minion without hand damage reduces any sum of
numbers that includes his hand damage to 0. So with the Bastard Sword, we
would add 1 + <nothing> = 0. And with Bang Nakh, 2 + <nothing> = 0. So
<nothing> is a mystical quantity which when added to or multiplied by any
number gives 0.
In other words: when any lvalue is given any quantity involving the term
<nothing>, that lvalue is set to 0.
That was fun... 8)
-Chris
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Jasper Phillips
In article <351C5977...@cptc.wisc.edu>,
Scott Halvorson <halv...@cptc.wisc.edu> wrote:
[mucho snippage]
>Actually, mathematically, <nothing>! = 1, or more specifically, 0! = 1.
>This is the way the factorial function is defined for 0.
Heh, I was using programming terminology, not mathmatical -- by
<nothing> != 0
I meant: <nothing> does not equal 0, not <nothing> factorial equals 0.