Rule Team Rulings 9/28/98
LSJ (VtES Rep)
Rules Team Rulings 9/28/98.
The errata and rulings below go into effect for DCI Sanctioned
Tournaments on 11/1/98 (the standard delay for rulings and errata
issued after the 15th of the month).
The clarifications apply immediately, of course.
ERRATA
------
Powerbase: New York
The action to steal the blood cannot be taken by your own Sabbat
vampires. (The WotC spoiler list has text to this effect, but the
actual card does not.)
Reform Body
Can be played in combat (as a combat card) by either combatant, acting
or reacting/blocking.
Can also be played (as a reaction card) from Torpor, even though only
Ready vampires can play reaction cards by default.
(To match the original intent of the card as verified by one of the
playtesters of the Sabbat expansion).
RULINGS
-------
Requirement: another card
If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) another card,
then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
Examples: Compel the Spirit cannot be played if the retainer or ally
in question is in your ash heap - it cannot be played on a Mummy (who
was returned to your library rather than the ash heap). And Brujah
Frenzy cannot be played if there is no suitable minion for the Brujah
to enter combat with.
REVERSAL: This ruling reverses an old ruling on Strike: Steal/Destroy
Equipment/Weapon. Such strikes cannot be used if the opposing minion
doesn't have a suitable Equipment/Weapon to be destroyed/stolen.
Strike: Combat Ends followed by combat cards.
Combat cards cannot be played after combat.
REVERSAL: This includes after a Srike: Combat Ends resolves.
(So you cannot play Pulled Fangs, Disarm, Amaranth, etc. after
a strike: end combat).
Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
a strike: end combat.
Note 2: effects which are to occur at the end of a round/combat
will still occur if the round/combat is ended by strike: combat
ends (like superior Drawing out the Beast's damage and inferior
Undead Persistence's torpor).
Rotschreck
REVERSAL: Cannot be used if the "attempt to use aggravated damage" is
not applicable at the current range. The most common example is an
aggravated hand strike done at long range.
CLARIFICATIONS
--------------
Betrayer
The "other Methuselah" is announced when the card is played (before
any decisions are made to play Sudden Reversal, for example).
Mind Rape and Return to Innocence
When played on a vampire who is then the victim of a Banishment, these
cards (like all minion cards) become uncontrolled (and cease to
function) until the vampire returns to the controlled area. When the
vampire returns to the controlled area, these cards' effects resume,
ready to be "activated" at the next appropriate time.
Return to Innocence
Return to Innocence doesn't care if the player who is your Prey changes
(via Dramatic Upheaval or whatever). During your untap, you will remove
the vampire from play and your Prey (whoever that is at the time) will
burn X pool (assuming Return to Innocence hasn't been burned before
then, of course).
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
Joshua Duffin
: Rules Team Rulings 9/28/98.
: The errata and rulings below go into effect for DCI Sanctioned
: Tournaments on 11/1/98 (the standard delay for rulings and errata
: issued after the 15th of the month).
: The clarifications apply immediately, of course.
: ERRATA
: ------
: Reform Body
: Can be played in combat (as a combat card) by either combatant, acting
: or reacting/blocking.
: Can also be played (as a reaction card) from Torpor, even though only
: Ready vampires can play reaction cards by default.
: (To match the original intent of the card as verified by one of the
: playtesters of the Sabbat expansion).
Yay! I thought this ruling would never be made, since Reform Body had
already been partially fixed. But I'm really happy it's here. I remember
asking about this back when Sabbat came out.
A vampire playing Reform Body as a reaction does still have to be untapped
to play it though, right?
: RULINGS
: -------
: Requirement: another card
: If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) another card,
: then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
: Examples: Compel the Spirit cannot be played if the retainer or ally
^^^^^^
should be 'can only', right?
: in question is in your ash heap - it cannot be played on a Mummy (who
: was returned to your library rather than the ash heap). And Brujah
: Frenzy cannot be played if there is no suitable minion for the Brujah
: to enter combat with.
: REVERSAL: This ruling reverses an old ruling on Strike: Steal/Destroy
: Equipment/Weapon. Such strikes cannot be used if the opposing minion
: doesn't have a suitable Equipment/Weapon to be destroyed/stolen.
: Strike: Combat Ends followed by combat cards.
: Combat cards cannot be played after combat.
: REVERSAL: This includes after a Srike: Combat Ends resolves.
: (So you cannot play Pulled Fangs, Disarm, Amaranth, etc. after
: a strike: end combat).
This is not quite the result I was looking for. ;-) But I think it's
acceptable. It's probably a pretty rare case anyway.
: Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
: technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
: a strike: end combat.
: Note 2: effects which are to occur at the end of a round/combat
: will still occur if the round/combat is ended by strike: combat
: ends (like superior Drawing out the Beast's damage and inferior
: Undead Persistence's torpor).
On the whole, looks good.
Josh
no new fixes yet, evidently...
Michael Beer
> Strike: Combat Ends followed by combat cards.
> Combat cards cannot be played after combat.
>
How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike even when not
striked with first strike?
Currently the ruling is AFAIK:
Time of resolving strikes:
S:CE
S:Dodge
First Strike
Strike
I would prefer:
First Strike
S:CE
S:Dodge
Strike
So if someone strikes with first strike someone which ends combat, the latter one
would still take the damage from the former minion's strike, and then combat
would end (no additional strikes).
which would make those cards granting first strike worthwile playing.
(That is: that would give some decks, especially Assamite and Celerity driven
decks another *active* possibility to beat S:CE *reliably*, thus making those
decks and clan more effective)
Michael Beer
J. Hunter Johnson
> How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
> even when not striked with first strike?
Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
Hunter
--
Hunter Johnson /\ http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/
SJG Errata Guy /()\ http://www.sjgames.com/errata/
Knightmare Chess Guru /____\ http://www.sjgames.com/knightmare/
Michael Beer
> Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
>
> > How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
> > even when not striked with first strike?
>
> Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
> see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
>
It isn't broken in any way. I just thought that such a change would let
Assamite become a competetive clan (at least a little bit more than now).
It won't change much (since First Strikes are difficult to get) but would
benefit those who care about first strike. Muddled Vampire Hunter may be
a greater threat, but he is still *very* easy to kill and is unique.
That's all.
Michael Beer
LSJ
> LSJ (VtES Rep) (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
> : Reform Body
> : Can be played in combat (as a combat card) by either combatant, acting
> : or reacting/blocking.
> : Can also be played (as a reaction card) from Torpor, even though only
> : Ready vampires can play reaction cards by default.
>
> to play it though, right?
Right.
> : RULINGS
> : -------
> : Requirement: another card
> : If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) another card,
> : then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available.
> : Examples: Compel the Spirit cannot be played if the retainer or ally
> ^^^^^^
> should be 'can only', right?
Oops! Right.
> : in question is in your ash heap - it cannot be played on a Mummy (who
> : was returned to your library rather than the ash heap). And Brujah
> : Frenzy cannot be played if there is no suitable minion for the Brujah
> : to enter combat with.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Lupus Australis
On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Chris Berger wrote:
> Besides, Assamites as
> a clan should never have existed. There is little to no
> historical/mythological precedent for them and they fill no game world
> niche in V:TM. They are an utterly superfluous clan and were not very
> well designed.
They seem to be based on the modern Western stereotype of the Arab as
terrorist and assassin. That always kinda bothered me. If they had
delved a little deeper into Arabic/Mid-Eastern folklore, perhaps they
could have found a more worthy inspiration and created a clan with
some depth.
> (Sorry, that doesn't have much bearing on Jyhad, but
> it's one of my pet-peeves about V:TM.)
Well, it does kinda relate to Jyhad, because WOD gives Jyhad its
atmosphere. My knowledge of the WOD comes to me strictly second hand
through Jyhad, and I was still bothered by the Assamites.
Lupus Australis
____ ____
\ \----/ /
|()__()|
__\ __ /__
/ __\()/__ \
|/ \==/ \|
| || |
legb...@my-dejanews.com
Sigh, it must be the changing of the seasons, effect of the equinox on
hormones kinda thing .. there i was feeling all brotherly and agreeing with
'most everything on the newsgroup, and then suddenly along comes this .....
gentlemen, the assamites are perhaps the MOST historical thing in WoD. There
really is [or was] an Alamut, the mountain from which the eponymous Old Man
directed the sect of the assassins. Originally they were formed during the
crusades, and perhaps may be said to constitute the original patriotic
resistance to foreign oppression [o alright, perhaps the Maccabees beat them
to that particular punch]. The assassins frightened the crusaders so much
that supernatural powers and pacts with evil were a routine part of western
discourse about them, so it is entirely appropriate for them to be vampiric
in the WoD. As for the Arab as terrorist and assassin, well, one of the many
clever things about the WoD is that you get to think long and hard about the
path from goodness, and the perception of evil .... it's not bad to want to
stay young and beautiful, is it? So you have to adopt an unusual diet, it's
not as if you're murdering anyone, is it? O dear, but i was just so HUNGRY
..... and so on. There may not be vampires in the real world, but we still in
our different ways fall from goodness through exactly the same stages, even
the Intrinsically Noble and Chivalrous Sons and Daughters of Sem ......
Legbiter, who always wanted to be the Germans when he was a little boy in the
playground ......
Myron Mychal
> J. Hunter Johnson wrote:
>
> > Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
> >
> > > How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
> > > even when not striked with first strike?
> >
> > Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
> > see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
> >
Our play group has the house rule that First Strike beats Dodge and it
doesn't make First Strike broken at all. There are so few cards with First
Strike that we thought this only made sense and we are even now debating
about whether or not to make First Strike take precedence over S:CE in our
group. After all, we think that a Muddled Vampire hunter that gets the drop
on little Gideon Fontaine before he is asked to "bow down before the one you
know" should get his shot in and THEN end the combat.
We have playtested for awhile now and by our rules, people seem to be a lot
more willing to play with First-Strike effects.
Myron Mychal
Myron Mychal
> None of those things would break the game. Nevertheless, they are all
> just as pointless and unfounded as making First Strike happen before
> dodge and S:CE.
>
> -Chris
Well, I don't know about you, but I like playing with all of my cards and
there is a whole box of Muddled Vampire Hunters right here that never see play
because of S:CE. My proposedchange in "First Strike" is nowhere near as "off
the wall" as the suggestions YOU seem to make about changing rules. Forgive
me for trying to help my playgroup find uses for cards that would otherwise be
deemed "wallpaper" . . . hmm - let's also just totally rip up all copies of
"Concealed Weapon" since it technically HAS that Obfuscate symbol on it and
Disguised Weapon is just soooo much better and for that matter, let's just get
rid of the assamites in general since there is no reason to play with them.
There is no need to be so patronizing when giving your stand on your side of
an argument by the way.
Myron Mychal
mboh...@shout.net
legb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Legbiter, who always wanted to be the Germans when he was a little boy in the
> playground ......
Off topic, but thoughts of Eric Cartman just came to mind.
"Cartman, you always cheat when we play Americans vs. Bosnians!"
Mike
--
Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign
Rules Survey - http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/vekn/
James Coupe
<mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com> writes
>Well, I don't know about you, but I like playing with all of my cards and
>there is a whole box of Muddled Vampire Hunters right here that never see play
>because of S:CE.
Do you never play stealth cards because someone else might play
intercept too?
Do you never play Potence cards in case someone else plays Skin of
Steel?
Do you never play bleed modifiers in case someone else has Archon
Investigation?
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
Myron Mychal
> In article <361107BD...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com>, Myron Mychal
> <mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com> writes
> >Well, I don't know about you, but I like playing with all of my cards and
> >there is a whole box of Muddled Vampire Hunters right here that never see play
> >because of S:CE.
>
> Do you never play stealth cards because someone else might play
> intercept too?
All I am saying is that IF the First Strike rule would be able to beat S:CE, it
would see play in my group. Because of the mechanics of the game, and the
propensity for S:CE to dominate the game as it does in a lot of the games I play
around here, we play cards that can stop S:CE . . . I am sure you would too if
S:CE were dominant in your group
> Do you never play Potence cards in case someone else plays Skin of
> Steel?
>
> Do you never play bleed modifiers in case someone else has Archon
> Investigation?
Once again, I am just trying to find a way to MAKE cards playable . . . tell me -
how playable IS the MVH? Really . . . how many of you Malkavian players really
consider him a vital addition to your deck's strategy???
Jasper Phillips
J. Hunter Johnson <jhun...@dillinger.io.com> wrote:
>Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
>
>> How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
>> even when not striked with first strike?
>
>Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
>see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
I agree with not changing things that aren't broken (at least
official changes), but didn't First Strike originally work this
way?
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
Jasper Phillips
Chris Berger <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Our play group has the house rule that First Strike beats Dodge and it
>> doesn't make First Strike broken at all.
>
>should play with a rule that the first time there is a Master: Out of
>Turn card played in a game, all methuselahs gain 1 pool. Hey, it
>doesn't make M:OoT's broken at all. Further, there are pretty few
>M:OoT's played, and there's only a special effect for the *first* one in
>a game. So let's add that rule.
While I agree that it's not good to make random changes, this isn't
exactly a fair comparison. The suggested First Strike rule makes
a certain amount of sense, would indeed improve the viability
the viability of celerity combat, and wasn't this the way the
rules originally worked? Your example is simply random.
Jasper Phillips
James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <361107BD...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com>, Myron Mychal
><mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com> writes
>>Well, I don't know about you, but I like playing with all of my cards and
>>there is a whole box of Muddled Vampire Hunters right here that never see play
>>because of S:CE.
>
>Do you never play stealth cards because someone else might play
>intercept too?
>
>Steel?
>
>Do you never play bleed modifiers in case someone else has Archon
>Investigation?
>
No, not exactly. However Competitivly...
I never play straight celerity, because it sucks without potence.
I never use weapons, because they suck.
I never use allies, because they suck.
And I definitly don't use concealed weapon.
Now, I've certainly made less competitive decks in an attempt to
find an angle with these kinds of cards, but your examples
weren't really fair comparisons to, or examples of, what Myron
was trying to say.
The chief problem with fixing such wallpaper is that the game
works fine without them (they essentially don't exist competitively),
and that you'd have to get people to agree upon a fix. The only
time one seems to be able to get any sort of consensus for a fix
is when a card is either ambigous, clearly violates the rules, or
is just too powerfull -- LSJ has gone so far as to say that he won't
try to fix wallpaper.
Personally, I think fixing wallpaper is great -- If you fixed the
groups of cards I mentioned, you'd have a similar effect to releasing
a whole new set -- but it's pretty much in the realm of House Rules.
Jasper Phillips
>
>Sigh, it must be the changing of the seasons, effect of the equinox on
>hormones kinda thing .. there i was feeling all brotherly and agreeing with
>'most everything on the newsgroup, and then suddenly along comes this .....
>gentlemen, the assamites are perhaps the MOST historical thing in WoD. There
>really is [or was] an Alamut, the mountain from which the eponymous Old Man
>directed the sect of the assassins. Originally they were formed during the
>crusades, and perhaps may be said to constitute the original patriotic
>resistance to foreign oppression [o alright, perhaps the Maccabees beat them
>to that particular punch]. The assassins frightened the crusaders so much
>that supernatural powers and pacts with evil were a routine part of western
>discourse about them, so it is entirely appropriate for them to be vampiric
>in the WoD. As for the Arab as terrorist and assassin, well, one of the many
>clever things about the WoD is that you get to think long and hard about the
>path from goodness, and the perception of evil .... it's not bad to want to
>stay young and beautiful, is it? So you have to adopt an unusual diet, it's
>not as if you're murdering anyone, is it? O dear, but i was just so HUNGRY
>..... and so on. There may not be vampires in the real world, but we still in
>our different ways fall from goodness through exactly the same stages, even
>the Intrinsically Noble and Chivalrous Sons and Daughters of Sem ......
Wow, I actually find myself agreeing (rather vehemently) with you
Sir Legbiter... The assamites in the RPG can indeed easily become a vehicle
for power gamers, but so can many of the other clans, and anyway that's
a problem for the GM to sort out.
>Legbiter, who always wanted to be the Germans when he was a little boy in the
>playground ......
They had all those cool tanks that the (western) allies simply lacked...
James A Ignatuk
Team Rulings 9/28/98 by Chris Ber...@cco.caltech
> > doesn't make First Strike broken at all.
>
> Oh, well there's a good reason to make senseless changes. I think we
> should play with a rule that the first time there is a Master: Out of
> Turn card played in a game, all methuselahs gain 1 pool. Hey, it
> doesn't make M:OoT's broken at all. Further, there are pretty few
> M:OoT's played, and there's only a special effect for the *first* one in
> a game. So let's add that rule.
>
> just as pointless and unfounded as making First Strike happen before
> dodge and S:CE.
>
> -Chris
The whole concept of First Strike is that you are striking before your
opponent can do anything about it. Thus they shouldn't be quick enough
to awe you with their Majestic presence, and they definitely shouldn't
be quick enough to dodge! In Magic:TG, First Strike damage resolves
before the other creature's damage resolves; in my opinion, Jyhad should
be played the same way.
Also, Celerity is an extremely weak skill as it is -- it could use some
advantages like First Strike being worth playing...
Jim
Lupus Australis
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980929075403.11561A-100000@amanda>,
> Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Chris Berger wrote:
> > > Besides, Assamites as
> > > a clan should never have existed. There is little to no
> > > historical/mythological precedent for them and they fill no game world
> > > niche in V:TM. They are an utterly superfluous clan and were not very
> > > well designed.
> >
> > They seem to be based on the modern Western stereotype of the Arab as
> > terrorist and assassin. That always kinda bothered me. If they had
> > delved a little deeper into Arabic/Mid-Eastern folklore, perhaps they
> > could have found a more worthy inspiration and created a clan with
> > some depth.
> >
> > > (Sorry, that doesn't have much bearing on Jyhad, but
> > > it's one of my pet-peeves about V:TM.)
> >
> > Well, it does kinda relate to Jyhad, because WOD gives Jyhad its
> > atmosphere. My knowledge of the WOD comes to me strictly second hand
> > through Jyhad, and I was still bothered by the Assamites.
>
> Sigh, it must be the changing of the seasons, effect of the equinox on
> hormones kinda thing .. there i was feeling all brotherly and agreeing with
> 'most everything on the newsgroup, and then suddenly along comes this .....
> gentlemen, the assamites are perhaps the MOST historical thing in WoD.
That's not a very defensible statement. WoD's entire schtick is to relate
the various events of history to the machinations and feudings of ancient
vampires. This is a typical example, and not any more or less historical
than the rest.
> There
> really is [or was] an Alamut, the mountain from which the eponymous Old Man
> directed the sect of the assassins. Originally they were formed during the
> crusades, and perhaps may be said to constitute the original patriotic
> resistance to foreign oppression [o alright, perhaps the Maccabees beat them
> to that particular punch].
Right. I have no problem with the idea that the historical Old Man of the
Mountains and many of his followers were actually vampires. This is no
different from saying that the Ventrue was behind the destruction of
Carthage; or that a certain historical 15th Century Wallachian warlord
named Vlad the Impaler was embraced by a Tzimisce and became Count
Dracula; or that the downfall of the Soviet Union was caused by the
reawakening of the ancient Nosferatu, Baba Yaga.
It was a good idea, but it was a small idea. Too small to base an entire
clan on. I have no problem with an (small, recent) organization of
vampires making trouble for the Crusaders. I do have trouble with the
idea that an Ancient Andedeluvian who has existed from before the dawn of
recorded history, has spent his entire existence hanging out on a mountain
with his followers for no other purpose than to make scare the Crusaders
when they finally show up.
> The assassins frightened the crusaders so much
> that supernatural powers and pacts with evil were a routine part of western
> discourse about them, so it is entirely appropriate for them to be vampiric
> in the WoD.
Right. They are based, not on Arab folklore, but rather on western horror
legends of scary Arabs. And this was allowed to remain as the entire
basis/inspiration for all of Arabic Vampiredom. An entire freakin' cln,
descended from an Antediluvian, was based on this extremely limitted
notion.
That is a horrendous insult to the rich culture and folklore of the Arab
world.
The Arabs have an ancient and well developed culture and a large body
of folklore. They have tales of Giants, evil Djinnis, Efreets, Ghouls and
Soul Eaters. The word "Ghoul" is, in fact, drawn from Arabic folklore.
Arabic culture has influenced our own vampiric myths, which come largely
from the Balkans where Christian and Moslem cultures clashed. I think it
would have been best if some research had been done into Ghost stories and
Legends told *by* the Arabs, rather than merely being lazily satisfied
with the ghost stories and legends told *about* them by others.
But all the Assamite designers did is look at this isolated historical
event and project it onto a clan of vampires and extend it forewards and
backwards in history. As such, they are a shallow one-note clan of Muslim
Assassim Vampires who, oddly enough, seem to have existed since before
Mohammed. Their design seems totally based on western perceptions and
charicatures of Muslim culture, and not on any Arabic notions of what Evil
Supernatural Creatures are like. Their special discipline, Quietus, has
little depth. It is simply a discipline for Assassins, with no
indication that it ever served, or is capable of serving, other purposes.
> As for the Arab as terrorist and assassin, well, one of the many
> clever things about the WoD is that you get to think long and hard about the
> path from goodness, and the perception of evil .... it's not bad to want to
> stay young and beautiful, is it? So you have to adopt an unusual diet, it's
> not as if you're murdering anyone, is it? O dear, but i was just so HUNGRY
> ..... and so on. There may not be vampires in the real world, but we still in
> our different ways fall from goodness through exactly the same stages, even
> the Intrinsically Noble and Chivalrous Sons and Daughters of Sem ......
All beside the point. Allowing this boring one-note clan to represent the
Arab world is an insult to that rich culture. I have no problem with the
idea of a small organization of Arabian Vampire Assassins operating at
various points in history, provided that this is not all that there is to
Arabian vampires and the Arabian world of darkness. Let them have other
options as well, other aspects, other attributes, more variety, other
inspirations.
Whoever designed the Assamites thought of Arabs in simplistic terms, and
designed a simplistic clan or Fanatical Muslim Assassim Vampires with
their own custom made Assassination discipline, addicted to blood instead
of Hashish. Once you give a vampire this one-note discipline of Quietus,
it is hard to conceive of him as anything but an assassin. They conceived
this clan as having existed since before the dawn of history to serve no
other purpose. Boooring.
Chris Berger
>
> J. Hunter Johnson wrote:
>
> > Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
> >
> > > How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
> > > even when not striked with first strike?
> >
> > Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
> > see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
> >
>
> Assamite become a competetive clan (at least a little bit more than now).
> It won't change much (since First Strikes are difficult to get) but would
> benefit those who care about first strike. Muddled Vampire Hunter may be
> a greater threat, but he is still *very* easy to kill and is unique.
>
As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a competitive clan.
Clans don't win games, decks do. A deck does not have to be built
around a clan. Interesting decks usually aren't. Besides, Assamites as
a clan should never have existed. There is little to no
historical/mythological precedent for them and they fill no game world
niche in V:TM. They are an utterly superfluous clan and were not very
it's one of my pet-peeves about V:TM.) And last... Muddled Vampire
Hunter is already a strong card (and is not unique). Making strong
cards stronger for no good reason seems a bit sketchy to me (and
changing rules to increase the power of a few underpowered cards seems a
bit wrong as well).
-Chris
Chris Berger
> Michael Beer wrote:
>
> > J. Hunter Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > > How about fixing the rule that S:CE and S:Dodge beat First strike
> > > > even when not striked with first strike?
> > >
> > > Why is that broken? (I realize that it could be changed, but I don't
> > > see why the change would be any more "fixed" than the current rule.)
> > >
>
> doesn't make First Strike broken at all.
Oh, well there's a good reason to make senseless changes. I think we
should play with a rule that the first time there is a Master: Out of
Turn card played in a game, all methuselahs gain 1 pool. Hey, it
doesn't make M:OoT's broken at all. Further, there are pretty few
M:OoT's played, and there's only a special effect for the *first* one in
a game. So let's add that rule.
Further, let's add the rule that each time you declare a strike in
combat when you are using a weapon and have a retainer, you should take
the top card of your library and put it in your ash heap. Then take a
random card from your ash heap and shuffle it back into your library.
Since the situation doesn't come up much and since the discard and
reshuffle are both random it shouldn't break the game. So, how about
it?
How about we create a rule that you must shuffle one crypt card into
your library when you begin the game, and when that card is on top of
your deck (or if you draw it), you shuffle it into your crypt. That
shouldn't break the game either.
Chris Berger
>
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
> > None of those things would break the game. Nevertheless, they are all
> > just as pointless and unfounded as making First Strike happen before
> > dodge and S:CE.
> >
>
> there is a whole box of Muddled Vampire Hunters right here that never see play
> the wall" as the suggestions YOU seem to make about changing rules.
>
sense. It is screwing with a game mechanic just because you feel like
it. It improves maybe one wallpaper card. It also improves at least 1
really good card. Why? Because you (and others, I must admit) feel
like it. It's all fine and good to play with house rules, but even
there I must state a passive objection. It is much easier to play with
other people (outside your playgroup) as well as to discuss the game if
everyone plays the same game.
I can't presume to tell you what to do in your games (well, I can tell
you all I want, but then you won't even take me partially seriously),
but I can say that I think such a rule doesn't help the game and creates
a disparity between the game you are playing and the game I am playing
(and, IMO this is kind of a bad thing for various reasons that I won't
post right now; if you want to know my reasons, post back and yell at me
some more and I'll almost certainly respond). It is obvious that the
original designer went to great effort to cause S:CE and dodge to
resolve before first strike, most likely in order to more closely
simulate the RPG from which Jyhad was derived, as well as to be more
"realistic" (meaning game-world realistic, as I can't make much
judgement as to how realistic vampires would act).
> Forgive
> me for trying to help my playgroup find uses for cards that would otherwise be
> deemed "wallpaper" . . . hmm - let's also just totally rip up all copies of
> "Concealed Weapon" since it technically HAS that Obfuscate symbol on it and
> Disguised Weapon is just soooo much better and for that matter, let's just get
> rid of the assamites in general since there is no reason to play with them.
>
Concealed Weapon was a misprint, plain and simple. This has been shown
to about 90% confidence. However, it still has not been errata'd and
most people still do not use a house rule to that effect. As for the
Assamites, I have seen many good decks that used Assamites. If you
can't build a good deck that uses purely Assamites (and I'm actually not
sure if you can or not) then that's perfect. One-clan decks are
narrow. Narrow decks have weaknesses. That is good. If truly narrow
decks had no weaknesses, each deck would use 90 copies of a single card
and nothing else. (True, unfocused decks also have weaknesses, but a
balance can be struck.)
> There is no need to be so patronizing when giving your stand on your side of
> an argument by the way.
>
I didn't feel I was being patronizing. I felt that I had a point to
make, and used some extreme examples which parralel the point I was
trying to discredit. And besides, I feel that there is usually
justification for being at least slightly impolite when posting to
USENET. Afterall, if you're intelligent enough to use a computer (note:
this sounds slightly patronizing to me when I read it. This time that
is certainly not intended. I am obviously aware that you are easily
intelligent enough to use a computer), then you are also intelligent
enough to realize that any opinion I may have of you means less than
nothing. And any insult or patronization directed at you is not going
to irrevocably scar your psyche. ("Oh no! I have been insulted by some
nerd on USENET who thinks he knows everything! Whatever will I do?")
-Chris
"There are no broken cards, only broken legs. So play with 7/7, or I'll
find out where you live." 8)
Chris Berger
>
> I never play straight celerity, because it sucks without potence.
>
One-discipline decks are narrow. Narrow decks have weaknesses.
> I never use weapons, because they suck.
>
> I never use allies, because they suck.
>
> And I definitly don't use concealed weapon.
>
Concealed Weapon was a misprint. I am actually in favour of errata to
remove the obfuscate symbol. However, I don't feel all that strongly
about it. So, as long as the Rules Team feels that the misprint is
desirable, I can live with it. Note that a change to this card would
help both weapons and allies as well. (Also, if you care, a lot of the
cards in the playtest set immensely help out weapons and allies. I'd
much prefer that new cards in the mix (if ever they come) address the
balance rather than new rules.)
> Now, I've certainly made less competitive decks in an attempt to
> find an angle with these kinds of cards, but your examples
> weren't really fair comparisons to, or examples of, what Myron
> was trying to say.
>
I don't believe that's true, as I stated in my reply to him. I feel
that those changes have as much effect on the game, as little basis in
"game-world" mechanics, and overall as much reason to exist as the first
strike "fix."
-Chris
Chris Berger
>
> While I agree that it's not good to make random changes, this isn't
> exactly a fair comparison. The suggested First Strike rule makes
> a certain amount of sense, would indeed improve the viability
> the viability of celerity combat, and wasn't this the way the
> rules originally worked? Your example is simply random.
>
point in the history of Jyhad (at least, after its commercial release)
has first strike beaten dodge or S:CE.
The rest of your reply I have addressed elsewhere... 8)
-Chris
James Coupe
<mmy...@NOSPAMcharlesindustries.com> writes
>Once again, I am just trying to find a way to MAKE cards playable . . . tell me
>-
>how playable IS the MVH? Really . . . how many of you Malkavian players really
>consider him a vital addition to your deck's strategy???
As a vital addition to the strategy, no. Malkavians don't do combat
well. Stealth bleed, yes. Intercept, moderately. Combat, not well at
all.
As a supplement to the deck, a prayer card to get the weenies, perhaps,
he is useful.
Chris Berger
>
> Wow, I actually find myself agreeing (rather vehemently) with you
> Sir Legbiter... The assamites in the RPG can indeed easily become a vehicle
> for power gamers, but so can many of the other clans, and anyway that's
> a problem for the GM to sort out.
>
They almost always become a vehicle for power gamers, as for anyone else
they are just completely uninteresting. They have been created exactly
as stereotypical terrorists. The historical/mythological significance
that Legbiter mentions (sorry it's not quoted... I'm not going to go cut
and paste now...) is both obscure and (more importantly) gives no
justification for these creatures to be considered vampires. There
would be as much justification for making a clan that's just like
faeries or just like werewolves and saying that they're just a different
type of vampire. Instead, those concepts, which were both interesting
and diverse were developed into their own games. This mystical assassin
stuff is neither interesting(okay I suppose this is opinion), diverse,
nor in any way fits with the concept of vampires (almost all of which
come from European legend/history.
Their discipline, Quietus, is described as having the goal of "a quiet
death." This reminds me of a fake Magic card I once saw in the Duelist
that was sent in by some 6 year old (or at least had the intellect of a
6 year old, much like your average Magic player). It was called
"Creeping Deth" and it had a quote that said, "The worst thing about
Creeping Deth is DETH!!!!!!" The whole concept of Quietus is cheesy in
the extreme. Rather than concentrating on a theme or an ability, such
as all of the major clan disciplines (that is, the Cam disciplines, vic,
obt, dem) and even some of the minor clan disciplines (nec and chi), the
discipline is given various powers that just allow it to cause death.
Lame. (note: I also don't particularly like a few of the other minor
clan disciplines as they were obviously created just for the sake of
creating disciplines, but none of those clans is quite as distasteful to
me as the Assamites.)
Okay, a bunch of the powers center around the manipulation of blood....
Isn't this what Thaumaturgy is? Thaumaturgy (a fairly lame discipline
in itself) is magic of the blood. Okay, so I suppose Quietus is the
layman's manipulation of blood? But not even all of the powers center
around blood manipulation. Silence of Death comes to mind. And those
that do center around blood manipulation sometimes affect the Assamite's
blood, sometimes another vampire's blood, sometimes a human. This just
strengthens the idea that Quietus is simply a discipline that tries to
combine everything possible for killing.
That would be like making a discipline called Socialness, which combines
all aspects of Dominate, Presence, Dementation, and a little bit of
Obtenebration and Chimerstry. Oh wait... Socialness isn't mysterious
enough... let's call it Maitriser (meaning approximately "control").
The goal of Maitriser is "ultimate control."
Or how about a combo of Potence, Foritude, Celerity, and Vicissitude.
Call it Corpus (or whatever, I don't care). The goal of Corpus is
"combat power."
True, Quiteus isn't all that powerful, but the simple fact that it's a
combination of Thaumaturgy, Obfuscate, and Vicissitude with a little bit
of "instant death" power added in makes it lame without being horrible
overpowered (although it can still be too strong).
If I wanted to make a character that was like an Assamite(which I
wouldn't), I would give it Thaumaturgy, Obfuscate, and Celerity. So
what if I had to be a Pander or Caitiff. At least then I wouldn't have
to pigeon-hole my character as a Middle-Eastern terrorist Muslim
(because, of course, all religious Arabs are blood thirsty and wacko,
right?). I suppose I wouldn't get stuff like Weakness, but that's a
fairly crappy power anyway.
Or, if I wanted to make an effective assassin, it'd be easy with
Obfuscate and a few freebie points spent to up my Firearms stat to 5 and
then specialize in Sniper Rifle. I suppose Auspex would be good for an
assassin also, and probably Celerity. All in all, Quietus as a
discipline did not need to be made, as it, along with the clan that
practices it, fits no niche in the game.
Just to belabour the point a little more, let's take a look at some
disciplines:
Animalism: Control animals and manipulate "the Beast."
Auspex: Sensory enhancement.
Celerity: Quickness.
Chimerstry: Illusions.
Dementation: Causing insanity in others
Dominate: Commanding others.
Fortitude: Toughness.
Necromancy: Communicating with and manipulating wraiths.
Obfuscate: Hiding.
Obtenebration: Manipulation of shadows.
Potence: Strength.
Presence: Evoking(or suppressing) emotions in others.
Protean: Shapeshifting.
Thaumaturgy: Blood Magic.
Vicissitude: Molding flesh.
Quietus: Quiet death.
Note that everything up there consists of some talent or property of the
vampire, which can be applied to achieve an end. Quietus, however, has
an end, and then gives you various abilities with which to achieve that
end. Even if you ignore some of its powers and say it manipulates
blood, this is still bad. All living things have blood, therefore
Assamites have power over everything. Hmm... Animalism can only control
animals. Dominate can only control intelligent beings with less power
than the dominating vampire. Once again, my problem with Quietus isn't
so much its strength, but its scope, and the fact that there was no need
for it. My problem with the Assamites is partly aesthetic, partly
because they are so one-dimensional, and very much because of Quietus as
a discipline. If they had been made with Cel/Obf/Tha, I wouldn't hate
them as much. I'd still hate them, but not as much.
Okay, that's all for now. Sorry to rant, but I've wanted to say all
that for a while now, and the newsgroup is a great place to do that,
since you can't make me stop until I'm finished. :-P
-Chris
Jasper Phillips
Chris Berger <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
[My text snipped]
>The way the rules originally worked is the way the work now. At no
>point in the history of Jyhad (at least, after its commercial release)
>has first strike beaten dodge or S:CE.
Ahhh. Not too suprising really, since when I started playing we made
graver rules errors than that. ;-)
Note that I'm not actually for changing the rules, although I do
think this would help celerity, I do think the Assamites are weak,
and I don't think it would make Muddles overpowered at all.
Jasper Phillips
Chris Berger <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>Okay, that's all for now. Sorry to rant, but I've wanted to say all
>that for a while now, and the newsgroup is a great place to do that,
>since you can't make me stop until I'm finished. :-P
>
> -Chris
*ROTFL* Ok, I guess we've all got our pet peeves. I still think that
if the assamites are kept mysterious and behind the scenes it can
work decently, certainly more often as plot devices than PCs.
Also, there's no real reason to stick to the clan stereotypes.
And I've always thought the historical link was far from obscure,
all it takes is the slightest smidge of Middle Eastern History;
where do you think the word assasin comes from?
Lupus Australis
> Sigh, it must be the changing of the seasons, effect of the equinox on
> hormones kinda thing .. there i was feeling all brotherly and agreeing with
> 'most everything on the newsgroup, and then suddenly along comes this .....
> gentlemen, the assamites are perhaps the MOST historical thing in WoD.
It is part of WoD's whole schtick is to relate the various events of
history to the machinations and feudings of ancient vampires. This is a
typical example, and not any more or less historical than the rest.
> There
> really is [or was] an Alamut, the mountain from which the eponymous Old Man
> directed the sect of the assassins. Originally they were formed during the
> crusades, and perhaps may be said to constitute the original patriotic
> resistance to foreign oppression [o alright, perhaps the Maccabees beat them
> to that particular punch].
Right. I have no problem with the idea that the historical Old Man of the
Mountains and many of his followers were actually vampires. This is no
different from saying that the Ventrue were behind the destruction of
Carthage; or that a certain historical 15th Century Wallachian warlord
named Vlad the Impaler was embraced by a Tzimisce and became Count
Dracula; or that the downfall of the Soviet Union was caused by the
reawakening of the ancient Nosferatu, Baba Yaga.
It was a good idea, but it was a small idea. Too small to base an entire
clan on. I have no problem with an (small) faction of mid-eastern
vampires making trouble for the Crusaders. I do have trouble with the
idea that an Ancient Andedeluvian who has existed from before the dawn of
recorded history, has spent his entire existence hanging out on a mountain
with his followers for no other purpose than to make scare the Crusaders
when they finally show up, defend Islam from Westerners, and develope
Assassination as a mystical art, and otherwise fulfill the Westerner's
conception of the Arab as fanatical bogeyman. This is totally
Anachronistic. What did the poor fool live for before Mohammed? What did
he live for before the Crusades? Why are he and his followers so frigging
fascinated with Assassination?
> The assassins frightened the crusaders so much
> that supernatural powers and pacts with evil were a routine part of western
> discourse about them, so it is entirely appropriate for them to be vampiric
> in the WoD.
Right. They are based, not on Arab folklore, but rather on western horror
legends of scary Arabs. And this was allowed to remain as the entire
basis/inspiration for all of Arabic Vampiredom. An entire freakin' cln,
descended from an Antediluvian, was based on this extremely limitted
notion.
That is a horrendous insult to the rich folklore of the Arab world.
The Arabs have an ancient and well developed culture and a large body
of folklore. They have tales of Giants, evil Djinnis, Efreets, Ghouls and
Soul Eaters. The word "Ghoul" is, in fact, drawn from Arabic folklore.
Arabic culture has influenced our own vampiric myths, which come largely
from the Balkans where Christian and Moslem cultures clashed. I think it
would have been best if some research had been done into Ghost stories and
Legends told *by* the Arabs, rather than merely being lazily satisfied
with the ghost stories and legends told *about* Arabs by Westerners.
The designers of clan Assamite look at this isolated historical event and
anachronistically projected it onto a clan of vampires and extend it
forewards and backwards in history. As such, they are a shallow one-note
clan of Muslim Assassim Vampires who, oddly enough, seem to have existed
since before Mohammed. Their design seems totally based on western
perceptions and charicatures of Muslim culture, and not on any Arabic
notions of what Evil Supernatural Creatures are like. Their special
discipline, Quietus, has little depth. It is simply a discipline for
Assassins, with no indication that it ever served, or is capable of
serving, other purposes.
> As for the Arab as terrorist and assassin, well, one of the many
> clever things about the WoD is that you get to think long and hard about the
> path from goodness, and the perception of evil .... it's not bad to want to
> stay young and beautiful, is it? So you have to adopt an unusual diet, it's
> not as if you're murdering anyone, is it? O dear, but i was just so HUNGRY
> ..... and so on. There may not be vampires in the real world, but we still in
> our different ways fall from goodness through exactly the same stages, even
> the Intrinsically Noble and Chivalrous Sons and Daughters of Sem ......
All beside the point. Allowing this boring one-note clan to represent the
Arab world is an insult to that rich culture. I have no problem with the
idea of a small faction of Arabian Vampire Assassins operating at various
points in history. They could profess the Muslim religion, as some
vampires retain loyalty to Christianity. Such a faction would have have
its origens later than 622 AD of course. But this should not all that
there is to Arabian vampires and the Arabian world of darkness. Let them
have other options as well, other aspects, other attributes, more variety,
other inspirations.
Whoever designed the Assamites thought of Arabs in simplistic terms, and
designed a simplistic clan or Fanatical Muslim Assassim Vampires with
their own custom made Assassination discipline, addicted to blood instead
of Hashish. Once you give a vampire this one-note discipline of Quietus,
it is hard to conceive of him as anything but an Assassin. They conceived