Stealth dumping question
L. Scott Johnson
Pheersum wrote:
>
> I seem to be reading that people think they can dump stealth cards after
> the attempt to block has failed, and before the chosen action plays out.
> How is this possible? I thought you could only play stealth cards
> between the time the action is announced, and the time it is blocked, or
> the block failed. I know some stealth cards are also combat cards, and
> can be played at this time, but I can't really cycle a handful of
> Bonding just because an action isn't blocked, anymore than I could dump
> them immediately after leaving my master phase. "Minion phase, now I
> dump unwanted stealth!"
Action modifiers can be played at any time during the action.
Reaction cards can be played at any time during the action.
There is a rule that stealth can only be added when the acting
minion needs stealth to overcome a block.
And there is a similar rule that intercept can only be added when
it is needed to match the acting minion's stealth.
Recently, the Rules Team ruled that these two rules only apply
during block attempts.
Thus:
If someone is attempting to block, then stealth can only be increased
if needed to overcome the blocker's intercept.
If no one is attempting to block, then the restriction doesn't apply
and you are free to add stealth.
Likewise for intercept.
Incidentally, you still can't dump a handful of Bondings, since each
one increases the bleed, and they all have text disallowing their
use after the bleed has been increased.
You can't dump unwanted stealth at the start of the minion phase
because you have no acting minion. As soon as you start your first
action, however, you are free to dump as much stealth as you like
(subject to the rules on repeating action modifiers) before anyone
gets a chance to block.
And reacting minions can increase intercept beyond what is needed
to block simply by doing so without attempting to block.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
Pheersum
I seem to be reading that people think they can dump stealth cards after
the attempt to block has failed, and before the chosen action plays out.
How is this possible? I thought you could only play stealth cards
between the time the action is announced, and the time it is blocked, or
the block failed. I know some stealth cards are also combat cards, and
can be played at this time, but I can't really cycle a handful of
Bonding just because an action isn't blocked, anymore than I could dump
them immediately after leaving my master phase. "Minion phase, now I
dump unwanted stealth!"
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program. any spam will be subject to federal prosecution of
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James B. Floate
L. Scott Johnson wrote:
<snip>
> And reacting minions can increase intercept beyond what is needed
> to block simply by doing so without attempting to block.
Isn't this the same rules team who at one stage in the game's evolution
decided that dodging cannceled the opponents strike?
'Why didnt my bomb go off?'
'Some guy with celerity ran away real fast'
'Phew, that was lucky, I didnt really want to blow myself up anyway.'
__
New Example of Play,
Acting Minion; 'My strike is a FoM.'
Blocking Minion; 'Damn it where are the 6 fast reactions I put in this
deck? Hang on, Im _not_blocking with Dorian and he gets to throw away
the eagles sight, spirits touch and the enhanced senses which were
clogging my hand. Ahah! okay, I'll use my other enhanced senses to block
with Kallista.'
Acting Minion (now slightly confused); 'I play another FoM'
Blocking Minion; 'Alrighty then! Anneke will play a fast reaction and
shoot you full of holes.'
I dont think I'll be using this when I run my next officially
unofficial tournament.
James B.
Mike Mirathe
James B. Floate wrote:
> Isn't this the same rules team who at one stage in the game's evolution
> decided that dodging cannceled the opponents strike?
>
> 'Why didnt my bomb go off?'
>
> 'Some guy with celerity ran away real fast'
>
> 'Phew, that was lucky, I didnt really want to blow myself up anyway.'
We made a houserule concerning a dodge: you cancel the EFFECT of a
strike for (only) the dodging minion, not the strike itself.
So if the acting minion pushes the red button on the bomb and the victim
runs away: bad luck for that apprentice terrorist.
The bomb will be burned (he pushed the trigger) and the attacker takes 5
damage.
The dodging minion makes a Hollywood-like escape and takes no damage.
It is the same with grenades. If you throw them, they'll explode,
regardless if the enemy stands still or dodges.
--
Michael Beer, Dortmund, Germany
-------------------------------
Life is founded on Chaos.
So if you find your living room became disordered:
Don't panic! It's natural... :)
L. Scott Johnson
James B. Floate wrote:
>
> L. Scott Johnson wrote:
> <snip>
> > And reacting minions can increase intercept beyond what is needed
> > to block simply by doing so without attempting to block.
>
> decided that dodging cannceled the opponents strike?
>
> 'Why didnt my bomb go off?'
>
> 'Some guy with celerity ran away real fast'
>
> 'Phew, that was lucky, I didnt really want to blow myself up anyway.'
That "ruling" (from the Darkness Unveiled FAQ) was corrected immediately
when it was pointed out. Tom said that it was intended to describe what
happens when the opponent used a S:CE to avoid the Bomb.
> New Example of Play,
>
> Acting Minion; 'My strike is a FoM.'
>
> Blocking Minion; 'Damn it where are the 6 fast reactions I put in this
> deck? Hang on, Im _not_blocking with Dorian and he gets to throw away
> the eagles sight, spirits touch and the enhanced senses which were
> clogging my hand. Ahah! okay, I'll use my other enhanced senses to block
> with Kallista.'
>
> Acting Minion (now slightly confused); 'I play another FoM'
Acting minion wouldn't get a strike after Fast Reaction.
(At least, not on the first round).
L. Scott Johnson
Mike Mirathe wrote:
> We made a houserule concerning a dodge: you cancel the EFFECT of a
> strike for (only) the dodging minion, not the strike itself.
This is near to the official rule:
Dodge cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the Dodging minion
and any non-Retainer cards on the Dodging minion.
> So if the acting minion pushes the red button on the bomb and the victim
> runs away: bad luck for that apprentice terrorist.
> The bomb will be burned (he pushed the trigger) and the attacker takes 5
> damage.
> The dodging minion makes a Hollywood-like escape and takes no damage.
> It is the same with grenades. If you throw them, they'll explode,
> regardless if the enemy stands still or dodges.
These examples both match the official rulings.
JlB1925
>Dodge cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the Dodging minion
>and any non-Retainer cards on the Dodging minion.
targeted at retainers of the Dodging minion? (presumably not from what
your careful omission implied)
---
Liam Burke
"So when are they coming out with Golconda by Day, anyway?"
-overheard
DOUGDWISE
Hello?
Is this the group for TGFKAJ?
I haven't been around much for a couple of months but this seems very
different than when I left.
So, a sneaky bleeder CAN dump stealth without limit to clear that hand
jam?
So much for not trying to block those big bleeds to jam that Malk.
I'm going to leave the room now and when I come back I hope everything
will be back to normal.
Very puzzled,
Doug
L. Scott Johnson
In article <19970524085...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
jlb...@aol.com (JlB1925) wrote:
>
> >Dodge cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the Dodging minion
> >and any non-Retainer cards on the Dodging minion.
> Just checking. Does dodging cancel effects at long range that are
> targeted at retainers of the Dodging minion? (presumably not from what
> your careful omission implied)
Correct, Dodge does not protect a Retainer.
L. Scott Johnson
In article <19970525020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Welcome back, Doug.
Yes, this is the group for the Game Formerly Known as Jyhad.
And, a new ruling (from 3/28/97, I believe) makes it allowable for a
sneaky bleeder to dump stealth without limit to clear a hand jam.
The ruling comes in the form: "The restriction against adding stealth/
intercept when you don't need it only applies during a block attempt".
Therefore, if there is no current block attempt, the restriction doesn't
apply.
The ruling came about in response to the observation: "Form of Mist superior
cannot be played to continue a successful bum's rush because the stealth
is not needed."
The ruling answers this observation so as to maintain the ruling that
FoM *can* be played on a successful Bum's Rush (thereby backing up and
restarting the Bum's Rush action).
The ruling also overturns many prior rulings: Like playing 2nd Tradition
when you don't need intercept and playing Fata Morgana when you don't need
stealth.
Algustas
Welcome back LSJ,
L. Scott Johnson <vte...@wizards.com> wrote in article
<5munuh$k...@news.wizards.com>...
> And, a new ruling (from 3/28/97, I believe) makes it allowable for a
> sneaky bleeder to dump stealth without limit to clear a hand jam.
>
> The ruling comes in the form: "The restriction against adding stealth/
> intercept when you don't need it only applies during a block attempt".
This brings up an interesting point. I assumed that this was just a
horrible oversight by a non-attentive rules team. Yet a couple of months
have gone by, and no attempt has been made to fix this mess. This
completely destroys the possibility of intercept as a defense if not
repaired. Is the rules team even considering repairs?
Algustas
--
Good, bad, I'm the guy with the mouse...
L. Scott Johnson
Algustas wrote:
> > And, a new ruling (from 3/28/97, I believe) makes it allowable for a
> > sneaky bleeder to dump stealth without limit to clear a hand jam.
> >
> > The ruling comes in the form: "The restriction against adding stealth/
> > intercept when you don't need it only applies during a block attempt".
>
> This brings up an interesting point. I assumed that this was just a
> horrible oversight by a non-attentive rules team. Yet a couple of months
> have gone by, and no attempt has been made to fix this mess. This
> completely destroys the possibility of intercept as a defense if not
> repaired. Is the rules team even considering repairs?
I had passed along all of my observations and concerns about this
new ruling (as well as the main comments on the new ruling from the
posts in this newsgroup) to the Rules Team.
When I get a response, I will relay the message to this group, of
course.
Demos
Welcome back...Scott...
In regards to
"The ruling also overturns many prior rulings: Like playing 2nd Tradition
when you don't need intercept and playing Fata Morgana when you don't need
stealth."
More specifically, if I understand this ruling, I can not play 2nd
Tradition Domain in response to a bleed because there is no stealth
modifiers. Is this correct?
--
Respectfully,
Demos
Ventrue Elder
L. Scott Johnson
Demos wrote:
>
> Welcome back...Scott...
>
> In regards to
>
> "The ruling also overturns many prior rulings: Like playing 2nd Tradition
> when you don't need intercept and playing Fata Morgana when you don't need
> stealth."
>
> More specifically, if I understand this ruling, I can not play 2nd
> Tradition Domain in response to a bleed because there is no stealth
> modifiers. Is this correct?
No. That was the way things worked before the ruling.
Now, since there is no block attempt at the time 2nd Tradition is
being played, the restriction against adding unneeded intercept is
notin effect, so 2nd Tradition can be played even if the intercept
is not needed.
salem christ....
Demos wrote:
> More specifically, if I understand this ruling, I can not play 2nd
> Tradition Domain in response to a bleed because there is no stealth
> modifiers. Is this correct?
that used to be correct, until this recent-and-quite-silly ruling on
stealth dumping (but, look at the bright side, it's also an INTERCEPT
dumping rule, too. mind you, i think the advantage to being able to dump
stealth could (and has been) far more abusive than the ability to dump
intercept.)
Before, you couldn't play intercept unless you needed it to block a
stealthy action.
with the new ruling, the restriction on only being allowed to play
stealth and/or intercept that you need only applies during a block
attempt. so, now you're allowed to play 2nd trad, because you're not
trying to block until AFTER you've got the intercept.
which also means, if someone is doing an action at zero stealth, you can
play precognition at superior (because you're not trying to block, so
you're not restriced from playing it), and THEN attempt to block, and
you get to prevent one damage in the resulting combat.
i've just thought that maybe now intercept combat is a lot more viable
than before. only problem is, i don't know anyone who uses the new
bollocks rule.
salem christ......
Dave Green
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
: Correct, Dodge does not protect a Retainer.
How about in the case of strikes which do damage to retainers
as well as the minion (Body of Sun does, I believe). If you
dodge Body of Sun, does the retainer still buy it?
: --
L. Scott Johnson
Dave Green wrote:
>
> L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
>
> : Correct, Dodge does not protect a Retainer.
>
> How about in the case of strikes which do damage to retainers
> as well as the minion (Body of Sun does, I believe). If you
> dodge Body of Sun, does the retainer still buy it?
Yes. Dodge does not protect a Retainer.
The effect of dodge is no more and no less than "cancel the effect
of the opposing minion's strike on the dodging minion and any
non-Retainer cards on the dodging minion."
James B. Floate
salem christ.... wrote:
<lotsa stuff>
> i've just thought that maybe now intercept combat is a lot more viable
> than before. only problem is, i don't know anyone who uses the new
> bollocks rule.
Just thought I'd give you some moral support.
James B
salem christ....
yes! let's hear a universal protest! boycott, i say! everyone, reply yo
this message voicing your agreement! (assuming you agree)
my fix: the stealth/intercept thing about only being allowed to play
what you need should apply to the whole minion phase, BUT only to action
modifier and reaction cards. (i can't see anyone abusivly tapping their
krcg news radio when they don't need the intercept.) this makes FoM
playable, without stuffing the game....
salem....
DOUGDWISE
Greetings to all and Bravo!
I see that the residents on this newsgroup are still as outspoken as ever.
:-)=
Thanks for the response to my little article, Scott. It is great to have
you on the inside working for us.
Yes, the ruling looks pretty foul to me, but as with the other rulings we
didn't like, the gaming community will just ignore it. The only problem
is in "Official" tournaments (and how many of those are we going to see?)
Anyway, it is nice to know that the folks here are still trying to make
their game better and are really passionate about it.
Slouching toward Gehenna,
Doug Dunaway
(Artistically Inept Torreador)