LSJ: sho-fizzle
Geoff
something to fizzle in VTES;
1)Cost cannot be paid for an action when it resolves successfully.
2)An effect interupts another (psyche versus catatonic fear, etc.)
cancelling the 'after-effect'.
Apparently there are more ways for something to fizzle based on the
harass thread (which I understand in terms of harass but dont
understand in terms of targetting a tapped minion, but anyways I
digress...). Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
some examples then please?
G
LSJ
news:86e3f5f4.04100...@posting.google.com...
> Ok previouslly I had thought there were really only 2 ways for
> something to fizzle in VTES;
>
> 1)Cost cannot be paid for an action when it resolves successfully.
> 2)An effect interupts another (psyche versus catatonic fear, etc.)
> cancelling the 'after-effect'.
>
>
> Apparently there are more ways for something to fizzle based on the
> harass thread (which I understand in terms of harass but dont
> understand in terms of targetting a tapped minion, but anyways I
> digress...).
The latter is just:
Ambush cannot be used to enter combat with an untapped minion.
If the target is untapped, then the target is no longer a valid
target and, if the action isn't blocked, it will fizzle at
resolution (that is, the "enter combat with a tapped minion"
will not occur)
> Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
> some examples then please?
The complete list for actions is just: absence of something required.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C45D991.E6086303%40white-wolf.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2z98d.662807%24Gx4.420435%40bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
For example:
Absence of sufficient blood/life/pool to pay cost
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=eb4eb7f8.0107100923.6d6c1761%40posting.google.com
Absence of legal target (cf. Ambush/Harass thread)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3FE40B.8B58C24C%40white-wolf.com
Absence of required card in play
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4gg3uu%249oh%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU
Absence of required card from the hand
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
Absence of ready acting minion (when required)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B5C37E9.C6464D3B%40white-wolf.com
For more details, Google "fizzle OR fizzles author:LSJ"
Catatonic Fear doesn't fizzle when Psyche!d, it still resolved
successfully (and ended combat). The "and something else" of
"end combat and something else" is the part that is lost when
combat doesn't end or another is started, which might be
called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, I guess.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Orpheus
You can already add : attempting any illegal action (a Parity Shift when
everyone has less pool than you, or with a Sabbat, or not a Prince /
Justicar, etc.).
-----------------
Orpheus
"We can never know of what we are the seeds
Until we flower."
Lilith
Darky
"Geoff" <talo...@yahoo.ca> schreef in bericht
news:86e3f5f4.04100...@posting.google.com...
3) action resolving when their chosen target isn't legal anymore
Iliana (tha PRO DOM FOR) plays far mastery on Mr. Winthrop,
who is controlled by Jimmy Dunn. Jimmy Dunn blocks.
Iliana plays weather control. Mr. Winthrop dies.
Iliana plays form of mist. The action continues
Noone blocks.
Action resolves, but since there's no Mr. Winthrop anymore,
it fizzles.
Or:
Jimmy Dunn plays ambush on tapped Caitlin, who has a Zillah's
Tears she got last turn. Caitlin burns the Zillah's Tears, and untaps.
Noone blocks.
Action resolves, but because Caitlin is no untapped minion
anymore, it fizzles.
-Bram Vink
James Coupe
There are several ways not listed above, and probably more anyway.
The action ends immediately (which is basically a fizzle) if control
of the acting minion is lost. For instance, imagine using a
Temptation whilst another minion was acting during your minion phase
under a Madness Network.
If a minion requires a piece of equipment to perform an action and -
during the action - that piece of equipment goes away (is stolen,
burned etc.) then the action fizzles. Imagine being blocked on a
Bomb-driven action. You burn the Bomb during the combat, or the Bomb
is stolen. Doesn't matter. On a later strike, you Form of Mist to
continue the action. The action fizzles upon resolution.
By extension of this second one into a parallel ruling, I'm wondering
what happens if you play Weakness on someone with a Serpentis
discipline card, burning it, only for them to Form of Mist (or other
continue action card) in order to carry on the action. Similarly,
Changeling Skin Mask or similar. Equipment seems to be handle by
Thomas Wylie's RTR 19960221. Were either situation to come up
(Weakness is somewhat unlikely!) in actual play and I couldn't find a
ruling, I'd be inclined to rule fizzling, however.
Any requirement for the target minion which is broken by the time the
action would resolve causes the action to fizzle -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3FE40B.8B58C24C%40white-wolf.com
provides the example of Mind Numb, Form of Mist and a Starshell
Grenade Launcher being used to tap the target minion, meaning it's no
longer an eligible target. (This parallels the Harass ruling.)
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
James Coupe
> You can already add : attempting any illegal action (a Parity Shift when
> everyone has less pool than you,
Not allowed in the first place, so would be undone when the mistake
was noted.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E9303F4.6040104%40white-wolf.com
> or with a Sabbat, or not a Prince /
> Justicar, etc.).
If you don't meet the requirements, you can't attempt the action.
LSJ
news:41619a76$0$24299$626a...@news.free.fr...
> > Ok previouslly I had thought there were really only 2 ways for
> > something to fizzle in VTES;
> >
> > 1)Cost cannot be paid for an action when it resolves successfully.
> > 2)An effect interupts another (psyche versus catatonic fear, etc.)
> > cancelling the 'after-effect'.
> >
> >
> > Apparently there are more ways for something to fizzle based on the
> > harass thread (which I understand in terms of harass but dont
> > understand in terms of targetting a tapped minion, but anyways I
> > digress...). Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
> > some examples then please?
>
> You can already add : attempting any illegal action (a Parity Shift when
> everyone has less pool than you, or with a Sabbat, or not a Prince /
> Justicar, etc.).
Illegal actions cannot be attempted.
A Sabbat vampire cannot attempt to do a Parity Shift, so the action
card cannot be played and the action will never begin and so cannot
"fizzle".
LSJ
news:3ypt3yx...@newred.gradwell.net...
> If a minion requires a piece of equipment to perform an action and -
> during the action - that piece of equipment goes away (is stolen,
> burned etc.) then the action fizzles. Imagine being blocked on a
> Bomb-driven action. You burn the Bomb during the combat, or the Bomb
> is stolen. Doesn't matter. On a later strike, you Form of Mist to
> continue the action. The action fizzles upon resolution.
>
> By extension of this second one into a parallel ruling, I'm wondering
> what happens if you play Weakness on someone with a Serpentis
> discipline card, burning it, only for them to Form of Mist (or other
> continue action card) in order to carry on the action. Similarly,
> Changeling Skin Mask or similar. Equipment seems to be handle by
> Thomas Wylie's RTR 19960221. Were either situation to come up
> (Weakness is somewhat unlikely!) in actual play and I couldn't find a
> ruling, I'd be inclined to rule fizzling, however.
Most such examples are example of requirements of playing
the card, not of the action itself. Like using Hand of Conrad
to choose Thrown Sewer Lid as your strike while the opponent
strikes with superior Canine Horde. The Hand is burned with
first strike and then the Sewer Lid resolves -- the requirements
no longer need be met (contrast with using Canine Horde to
destroy an Assault Rifle).
Unless the action's resolution involves something like "this
vampire with Serpentis gains a blood", the Discipline
requirement isn't a continuing one.
Jozxyqk
>> Ok previouslly I had thought there were really only 2 ways for
>> something to fizzle in VTES;
>>
>> 1)Cost cannot be paid for an action when it resolves successfully.
>> 2)An effect interupts another (psyche versus catatonic fear, etc.)
>> cancelling the 'after-effect'.
>>
>>
>> Apparently there are more ways for something to fizzle based on the
>> harass thread (which I understand in terms of harass but dont
>> understand in terms of targetting a tapped minion, but anyways I
>> digress...). Can we get a rundown of everything not listed above and
>> some examples then please?
> You can already add : attempting any illegal action (a Parity Shift when
> everyone has less pool than you, or with a Sabbat, or not a Prince /
> Justicar, etc.).
Those don't really fizzle. They're illegal to attempt.
But along those lines:
As far as I know, if you call a Parity Shift (legally), and you get all
the way to referendum and the terms would still be legal (that is, nobody
burned pool for Special Report or other "before the action resolves"
effects), then it doesn't matter if the terms become illegal during the
referendum.
If I call Parity Shift, and at the beginning of the referendum my prey
has more pool than me, and during the referendum he somehow loses pool
(Business Pressure?), the referendum may still pass.
Is that correct?
James Coupe
> If I call Parity Shift, and at the beginning of the referendum my prey
> has more pool than me, and during the referendum he somehow loses pool
> (Business Pressure?), the referendum may still pass.
>
> Is that correct?
Yes.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=3F153BB0.6000307%40white-wolf.com
goes about it the other way - you gain pool from Bribes.
The principle is the same, however. When terms are set, you choose a
Methuselah who meets requirement <x>. The chosen Methuselah loses the
pool when the referendum passes - but the requirement for less pool is
not checked again.
LSJ
news:Eqh8d.200414$3l3.6485@attbi_s03...
> As far as I know, if you call a Parity Shift (legally), and you get all
> the way to referendum and the terms would still be legal (that is, nobody
> burned pool for Special Report or other "before the action resolves"
> effects), then it doesn't matter if the terms become illegal during the
> referendum.
> If I call Parity Shift, and at the beginning of the referendum my prey
> has more pool than me, and during the referendum he somehow loses pool
> (Business Pressure?), the referendum may still pass.
>
> Is that correct?
"
Successful referendum means the chosen Methuselah loses that pool, and it
is allocated as you announced.
"
No mention of pool levels there, correct.
Sten During
> "Orpheus" <orphe...@DEADSPAM.free.fr> writes:
>
>
>>You can already add : attempting any illegal action (a Parity Shift when
>>everyone has less pool than you,
>
>
> Not allowed in the first place, so would be undone when the mistake
> was noted.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E9303F4.6040104%40white-wolf.com
>
Not entirely certain about this, but you call Parity Shift and make it
to referendum. Target me. You play Business Pressure. For reasons
unknown you decide not to go below my pool after I've paid for enough
votes to get below your pool but not enough to actually prevent your
referendum to be succcesful.
Does referendum fizzle?
Sten During
Sten During
Forget it, saw answer below :)
salem
scrawled:
>By extension of this second one into a parallel ruling, I'm wondering
>what happens if you play Weakness on someone with a Serpentis
>discipline card, burning it, only for them to Form of Mist (or other
>continue action card) in order to carry on the action. Similarly,
>Changeling Skin Mask or similar. Equipment seems to be handle by
>Thomas Wylie's RTR 19960221. Were either situation to come up
>(Weakness is somewhat unlikely!) in actual play and I couldn't find a
>ruling, I'd be inclined to rule fizzling, however.
i'd be inclined to go with not-fizzle, on this one.
for combat, if you play a potence card with the hand of conrad, if
someone burns the hand, the potence effect is still applied, because
you had potence at the time you played your potence card, which is all
playing cards require. not sure if this gets murkied up with things
that don't resolve when played, but instead resolve later (ie:
actions).
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Geoff
Thanks, a few comments;
>
> Absence of required card from the hand
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
>
I don't understand this one. My understanding of CL as it is played
now is that you play the first vote from hand along with the lobby. I
can't think of any action card that would remain in hand somehow
during action resolution.
> Catatonic Fear doesn't fizzle when Psyche!d, it still resolved
> successfully (and ended combat). The "and something else" of
> "end combat and something else" is the part that is lost when
> combat doesn't end or another is started, which might be
> called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, I guess.
Correct, I was only referring to the 'and opposing minion takes 1
damage' part. All those "and x" effects are fizzled via continue
combat effects correct?
G
Jozxyqk
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<2sdjgqF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> Thanks, a few comments;
>>
>> Absence of required card from the hand
>> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
>>
> I don't understand this one. My understanding of CL as it is played
> now is that you play the first vote from hand along with the lobby. I
> can't think of any action card that would remain in hand somehow
> during action resolution.
When you play CL, you declare what the vote is that's in your hand.
But it doesn't come out of your hand unless CL succeeds.
(similar to Concealed Weapon)
LSJ
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
>
> I don't understand this one. My understanding of CL as it is played
> now is that you play the first vote from hand along with the lobby. I
> can't think of any action card that would remain in hand somehow
> during action resolution.
The referendum is named when the action is begun (and the CL is played),
but the political action card (if any) is not moved from the hand until
and unless the action succeeds.
> > Catatonic Fear doesn't fizzle when Psyche!d, it still resolved
> > successfully (and ended combat). The "and something else" of
> > "end combat and something else" is the part that is lost when
> > combat doesn't end or another is started, which might be
> > called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, I guess.
>
> Correct, I was only referring to the 'and opposing minion takes 1
> damage' part. All those "and x" effects are fizzled via continue
> combat effects correct?
The "and something else" of "end combat and something else" is the
part that is lost when combat doesn't end or another is started, which
might be called "fizzling" in regards to that effect, yes.
Geoff
> "Geoff" <talo...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:86e3f5f4.0410...@posting.google.com...
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:<2sdjgqF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > Absence of required card from the hand
> > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
> >
> > I don't understand this one. My understanding of CL as it is played
> > now is that you play the first vote from hand along with the lobby. I
> > can't think of any action card that would remain in hand somehow
> > during action resolution.
>
> The referendum is named when the action is begun (and the CL is played),
> but the political action card (if any) is not moved from the hand until
> and unless the action succeeds.
>
That might be something for the ruling archive then. Cardtext says
'play this card' which on the face of it means that you play the vote
card right away along with the charming lobby. I am assuming now that
you are ruling that you only play the vote card when the lobby action
resolves successfully and goes to a referendum, but that is not
obvious from cardtext.
G
LSJ
news:86e3f5f4.0410...@posting.google.com...
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:<2sg3o2F...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Geoff" <talo...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:86e3f5f4.0410...@posting.google.com...
> > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > news:<2sdjgqF...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > > > Absence of required card from the hand
> > > >
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BF15F4A.542AEBDE%40white-wolf.com
> > >
> > > I don't understand this one. My understanding of CL as it is played
> > > now is that you play the first vote from hand along with the lobby.
I
> > > can't think of any action card that would remain in hand somehow
> > > during action resolution.
> >
> > The referendum is named when the action is begun (and the CL is
played),
> > but the political action card (if any) is not moved from the hand until
> > and unless the action succeeds.
> >
>
> That might be something for the ruling archive then. Cardtext says
> 'play this card' which on the face of it means that you play the vote
> card right away along with the charming lobby.
No. See (every other action card) where the "do this thing" isn't done
until the action succeeds.
> I am assuming now that
> you are ruling that you only play the vote card when the lobby action
> resolves successfully and goes to a referendum,
I'm explaining that now, yes. No ruling is needed -- it's just a
clarification -- a reminder that the effects of an action are not
applied unless and until the action succeeds (by default -- explicit
card text can overcome this default, of course).
> but that is not
> obvious from cardtext.