More Spying Mission Questions...

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James Engman

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Feb 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/22/96
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OK, I have a few more questions for Spying Mission (Superior).
All of these questions deal with using SM to modify the inital action (to
get the +2 bleed later):

1. Could Spying Mission be played after the success of the bleed has
been determined (similar to playing cards like Freak Drive and Cat's
Guidance, which are only useful after a successful action [or block])? I
wonder if this wouldn't be an easier way to deal with the card?

2. Does using Superior Spying Mission count as a successful bleed (i.e. does
the Methuselah of the acting minion get the Edge)? Telepathic Counter
says that bleeds ending at 0 or less are not considered successful, and
Superior Spying Mission doesn't remove pool (essentially, a 0 bleed), BUT
the action has to be successful to use Spying Mission.

And one other question for Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection:

3. Can Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection be used in a two-player
game? The way we have always played is that they simply counter the
attempted bleed. Player A attempts to bleed player B, player B plays
Deflection, pays the cost, and the action is simply unsuccessful.

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/23/96
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James Engman <eng...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> writes:

> OK, I have a few more questions for Spying Mission (Superior).
>All of these questions deal with using SM to modify the inital action (to
>get the +2 bleed later):

>1. Could Spying Mission be played after the success of the bleed has
>been determined (similar to playing cards like Freak Drive and Cat's
>Guidance, which are only useful after a successful action [or block])? I
>wonder if this wouldn't be an easier way to deal with the card?

Well, it could be played at that time, but once played, the bleed
could still be reduced in response.

>2. Does using Superior Spying Mission count as a successful bleed (i.e. does
>the Methuselah of the acting minion get the Edge)? Telepathic Counter
>says that bleeds ending at 0 or less are not considered successful, and
>Superior Spying Mission doesn't remove pool (essentially, a 0 bleed), BUT
>the action has to be successful to use Spying Mission.

Good question. The official ruling on an unsucessful successful bleed
of zero has never made much sense to me.

>And one other question for Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection:

>3. Can Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection be used in a two-player
>game? The way we have always played is that they simply counter the
>attempted bleed. Player A attempts to bleed player B, player B plays
>Deflection, pays the cost, and the action is simply unsuccessful.

From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Re: June DTR (Re: House Rules List)
Date: 7 Oct 1995 19:33:17 GMT
Message-ID: <456klt$u...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

In a two-player game, you can play Deflection to deflect the bleed to
yourself. So it's not quite "to no effect", but the effect doesn't do
anything significant, either.


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Thomas R Wylie

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Feb 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/26/96
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James Engman <eng...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>1. Could Spying Mission be played after the success of the bleed has
>been determined (similar to playing cards like Freak Drive and Cat's
>Guidance, which are only useful after a successful action [or block])? I
>wonder if this wouldn't be an easier way to deal with the card?

Spying Mission is only played if you know the bleed is successful, i.e.,
after you would normally play action modifiers. It is played instead
of burning pool from the Methuselah being bled.

>2. Does using Superior Spying Mission count as a successful bleed (i.e. does
>the Methuselah of the acting minion get the Edge)? Telepathic Counter
>says that bleeds ending at 0 or less are not considered successful, and
>Superior Spying Mission doesn't remove pool (essentially, a 0 bleed), BUT
>the action has to be successful to use Spying Mission.

You can only use Spying Mission if the bleed is successful; using it does
not stop you from getting the edge. Note that Teletpathic Counter trumps
Spying Mission, since if it reduces the bleed to 0, the bleed is not
considred successful.

>And one other question for Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection:
>
>3. Can Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection be used in a two-player
>game? The way we have always played is that they simply counter the
>attempted bleed. Player A attempts to bleed player B, player B plays
>Deflection, pays the cost, and the action is simply unsuccessful.

You can use both of these in a two-player game, but only to "bounce" the bleed
back to yourself.


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/26/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>James Engman <eng...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>1. Could Spying Mission be played after the success of the bleed has
>>been determined (similar to playing cards like Freak Drive and Cat's
>>Guidance, which are only useful after a successful action [or block])? I
>>wonder if this wouldn't be an easier way to deal with the card?

>Spying Mission is only played if you know the bleed is successful, i.e.,
>after you would normally play action modifiers. It is played instead
>of burning pool from the Methuselah being bled.

>>2. Does using Superior Spying Mission count as a successful bleed (i.e. does
>>the Methuselah of the acting minion get the Edge)? Telepathic Counter
>>says that bleeds ending at 0 or less are not considered successful, and
>>Superior Spying Mission doesn't remove pool (essentially, a 0 bleed), BUT
>>the action has to be successful to use Spying Mission.

>You can only use Spying Mission if the bleed is successful; using it does
>not stop you from getting the edge. Note that Teletpathic Counter trumps
>Spying Mission, since if it reduces the bleed to 0, the bleed is not
>considred successful.

You used to be able to re-boost the bleed (with Threats, for example)
after such a reduction, but your current answer (breaking action modifiers
into timing groups) seems to deny this.

Can you play threats to increase the bleed back to positive?

Eric Pettersen

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Mar 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM3/2/96
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sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote:
: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
: >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
: >>>You can only use Spying Mission if the bleed is successful; using it
: >>>does not stop you from getting the edge. Note that Telepathic
: >>>Counter trumps Spying Mission, since if it reduces the bleed to 0,

: >>>the bleed is not considred successful.
: >>You used to be able to re-boost the bleed (with Threats, for example)
: >>after such a reduction, but your current answer (breaking action
: >>modifiers into timing groups) seems to deny this.
:
: >Telepathic Counter trumps Spying Mission *if* nothing else is going
: >on. You can boost the bleed back above 0 once Counter is played, and
: >then be able to use Spying Mission.
:
: But could you use Spying Mission first, then have it trumped by Telepathic
: Counter, and *then* still boost it back to positive by Threats?
:
: Your initial answer indicated that Spying Mission had to come after all
: other Action Modifiers - implying that no Action Modifiers could be
: played after it.

Yes, Tom, could you clarify this? Can Threats/TC be played after Spying
Mission? My initial take on your answers was that since Spying Mission
says "Instead of removing pool from the Methuselah you are bleeding", you
have to wait until the Meth is actually going to remove pool, i.e. the
success of the bleed has been determined, before you can play SM. But
once you have played it, then no bleed is going on so TC and Deflection
(and Threats) cannot be played afterward. Is this right or wrong?
---
Eric Pettersen
pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)


L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM3/4/96
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pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu (Eric Pettersen) writes:
>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote:
>: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>: >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>: >>>You can only use Spying Mission if the bleed is successful; using it
>: >>>does not stop you from getting the edge. Note that Telepathic
>: >>>Counter trumps Spying Mission, since if it reduces the bleed to 0,
>: >>>the bleed is not considred successful.
>: But could you use Spying Mission first, then have it trumped by Telepathic
>: Counter, and *then* still boost it back to positive by Threats?
>:
>: Your initial answer indicated that Spying Mission had to come after all
>: other Action Modifiers - implying that no Action Modifiers could be
>: played after it.

>Yes, Tom, could you clarify this? Can Threats/TC be played after Spying
>Mission? My initial take on your answers was that since Spying Mission
>says "Instead of removing pool from the Methuselah you are bleeding", you
>have to wait until the Meth is actually going to remove pool, i.e. the
>success of the bleed has been determined, before you can play SM. But
>once you have played it, then no bleed is going on so TC and Deflection
>(and Threats) cannot be played afterward. Is this right or wrong?
>---

Tom has clarified this in e-mail (correcting my errata list) by saying
that TC cannot "trump" Spying Mission, since Spying Mission has to
be played last, and TC cannot be played after it.

Reversing his use of the verb "trump" in the original answer - Telepathic
Counter will beat Spying Mission, but only if it is played first, preventing
Spying Mission from being played unless the bleed is boosted back to
positive).

A wonderful example of convoluted timing that circumevents the normal
Acting-Blocking-clockwise paradigm for playing cards, for no obvious
benefit except to keep Rulemongers like me employeed :-).

--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | A titanic intellect...
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | In a world full of icebergs.

L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM3/4/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:


>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:

>>>Telepathic Counter trumps Spying Mission *if* nothing else
>>>is going on. You can boost the bleed back above 0 once Counter is played,
>>>and then be able to use Spying Mission.

>>But could you use Spying Mission first, then have it trumped by
>>Telepathic Counter, and *then* still boost it back to positive by Threats?

>No. You can only use Spying Mission if you *know* the bleed is
>successful, which means that it's only used once everyone is done
>playing (normal) action modifiers and reactions.

>>Your initial answer indicated that Spying Mission had to come after all
>>other Action Modifiers - implying that no Action Modifiers could be
>>played after it.

>Correct.

Question on timing:

Since Major Boon has to be played "once you know the bleed is successful",
and this means after all blocks/bounces, but before and/or after bleed
modifiers to be played after it [RTR 11/10/95], and ...

Spying Mission has to be played "once you know the bleed is successful",
and this means after all blocks/bounces/bleed modifiers [TOM], then...

Who wins when one player wants to play Major Boon and the acting player
wants to play Spying Mission?

Time was when the acting-blocking-clockwise (ABC) rule would clear this up,
but now (since the new Spying Mission ruling has made an exception to
the timing rules) the order is a bit obscure.

Thomas R Wylie

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Mar 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM3/9/96
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L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>Since Major Boon has to be played "once you know the bleed is successful",
>and this means after all blocks/bounces, but before and/or after bleed
>modifiers to be played after it [RTR 11/10/95], and ...
>
>Spying Mission has to be played "once you know the bleed is successful",
>and this means after all blocks/bounces/bleed modifiers [TOM], then...
>
>Who wins when one player wants to play Major Boon and the acting player
>wants to play Spying Mission?
>
>Time was when the acting-blocking-clockwise (ABC) rule would clear this up,
>but now (since the new Spying Mission ruling has made an exception to
>the timing rules) the order is a bit obscure.

The ABC rule still applies here, as Spying Mission and Major Boon are
basically played at the same time: once it's established that the bleed
is successful. The acting player must decide whether to play Spying Mission
before anyone decides to play Major Boon. If he does so, Major Boon becomes
illegal, since the player being bled is no longer going to lose pool.

L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM3/11/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:

And what ruling prevents the acting player from playing Spying Mission
after a Major Boon? (or is your response to be read as creating that rule?)

Whatever the case, the timing breakdown is now as follows:

Start of action stages
1. player A bleeds player B (her prey).
2. A declines to play start of action modifiers (e.g., Seduction)

Choose blockers stages
3. B declines to block.
4. C-N decline to block with Eagle's Sight or Anneke

Modify action stages (Can be played before and during 'Choose Blockers')
5. A declines to play modifiers.
6. B declines to play reaction cards.
7. C-N decline to play reaction cards. (e.g. Ignis Fatuus)

Resolve action stages
8. A declines to play 'successful action' effects (e.g., Spying Mission)
9. B declines to play 'successful action' effects (e.g., Archon Investigation)
10.C-N decline to play 'successful action' effects (e.g., Major Boon)

At which point(s) can Brujah Frenzy be played in the above sequencing (assuming
the acting minion was a Brujah)?
Before 8?
After 10?

What is the last point at which the action be taken over by Mask1K?
(I assume 10).
If 10, can Mask1K be used after an Archon Investigation?
(I assume not, since AI terminates the action and the actor immediately,
allowing no response [except SR, of course]).

Can any of the steps (besides 5-7) be played earlier than listed?

Some of the steps are loops:
5-6, for example. Even if A declined in step 5, she would still be
able to play a step 5 modifier if B decided to play a reaction card in
step 6. or C-N play reaction cards in 7.

Are steps 8 - 10 part of a loop?

--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | All generalizations are false.
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson |

L. Scott Johnson

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Apr 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/9/96
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Haven't seen the answer to this, so thought I'd post it again:

On Mar 11, 1996, L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
---------- Begin Reposted Article ----------


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