Vidal and Descent into Darkness
Nikolaj "Lord of the Betrayers" Wendt
If Vidal uses his ability to play a card with a requirement he
normally doesnt fullfill, then plays Descen into Darkness and returns,
can he use his ability for that requirement again?
I assume the "new" Vidal is indeed a new Vidal and isnt tainted by the
cards the first Vidal played?
Vidal Jarbeaux, 8, aus cel obf pot PRE, Toreador, 5, [KoT]
Camarilla: Vidal can meet the clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire
trait (e.g. anarch) requirement to play any card. He can meet a given
requirement only once each game. +1 bleed.
Descent into Darkness, Action, 1 blood, Obtenebration, C , [G]
+1 stealth action.
[obt] Turn the acting vampire and any cards on him or her face down,
out of play (breaking any temporary control effects). Put this card on
him or her (in play). During your influence phase, move 2 blood to
this face down vampire from the blood bank, and you can choose to burn
this card to return the vampire to play, tapped.
[OBT] As above, but the vampire is untapped when he or she returns to
play.
floppyzedolfin
<nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just want to confirm this before I start making the decks..
> If Vidal uses his ability to play a card with a requirement he
> normally doesnt fullfill, then plays Descen into Darkness and returns,
> can he use his ability for that requirement again?
>
> I assume the "new" Vidal is indeed a new Vidal and isnt tainted by the
> cards the first Vidal played?
I think the returning Vidal is the same Vidal. Only a trip through the
crypt or ash heap would "cleanse" Vidal's taints. (uncontrolled region
"remembers").
Similarly, contesting Vidal wouldn't allow him to play a second Ankara
Citadel (or whatever card he doesn't match a requirement he already
faked to play a card).
The closest I can find would be
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/404fd857d76dbe31
(which is about library cards, and not crypt cards)
John Flournoy
<nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just want to confirm this before I start making the decks..
> If Vidal uses his ability to play a card with a requirement he
> normally doesnt fullfill, then plays Descen into Darkness and returns,
> can he use his ability for that requirement again?
>
> I assume the "new" Vidal is indeed a new Vidal and isnt tainted by the
> cards the first Vidal played?
It's not a "new" Vidal; going to the ashheap wipes such things clean,
but simply becoming out of play does not; he is out of play just as if
he was being contested.
So when he returns to play, he's still the same copy of Vidal as
before, with all the same 'I've used this ability' restrictions as
before. (He'd still be an Anarch if he had previously gone anarch as
well; equipment and discipline masters would still be on him; he'd
still be Bahari if he'd used Lilith's blessing, etc.)
-John Flournoy
Nikolaj "Lord of the Betrayers" Wendt
Is that a specific point in the rules? I couldnt see see anything
there, so I looked at effects that puts minions into uncontrolled. All
of them mention cards and counters. (See below)
All of the things you mentioned leave either a card or a counter on
the minion playing them, where as Vidals ability doesnt.
On another nore, does this "track" the specific crypt card? What if I
bring in another copy of Vidal? Would I be able to use the ability
again then?
Banishment
Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they
are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
Reality
The vampire`s blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with
that vampire, with any counters they have on them (those cards are out
of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
Descent into Darkness
witness1
<nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 4:41 pm, John Flournoy <carne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 9:20 am, "Nikolaj \"Lord of the Betrayers\" Wendt"
>
> > <nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just want to confirm this before I start making the decks..
> > > If Vidal uses his ability to play a card with a requirement he
> > > normally doesnt fullfill, then plays Descen into Darkness and returns,
> > > can he use his ability for that requirement again?
>
> > > I assume the "new" Vidal is indeed a new Vidal and isnt tainted by the
> > > cards the first Vidal played?
>
> > It's not a "new" Vidal; going to the ashheap wipes such things clean,
> > but simply becoming out of play does not; he is out of play just as if
> > he was being contested.
>
> > So when he returns to play, he's still the same copy of Vidal as
> > before, with all the same 'I've used this ability' restrictions as
> > before. (He'd still be an Anarch if he had previously gone anarch as
> > well; equipment and discipline masters would still be on him; he'd
> > still be Bahari if he'd used Lilith's blessing, etc.)
>
> > -John Flournoy
>
> Is that a specific point in the rules?
It's a ruling.
> I couldnt see see anything
> there, so I looked at effects that puts minions into uncontrolled. All
> of them mention cards and counters. (See below)
> All of the things you mentioned leave either a card or a counter on
> the minion playing them, where as Vidals ability doesnt.
>
> On another note, does this "track" the specific crypt card? What if I
> bring in another copy of Vidal? Would I be able to use the ability
> again then?
New copies are "clean", as are any originals which pass through the
crypt and/or ash heap.
This thread might help:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/2e5a8207a2cdeb88/f78c705a8f17df93?q=ash+heap+crypt+author:lsj#f78c705a8f17df93
-witness1
floppyzedolfin
<nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 4:41 pm, John Flournoy <carne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 9, 9:20 am, "Nikolaj \"Lord of the Betrayers\" Wendt"
>
> > <nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just want to confirm this before I start making the decks..
> > > If Vidal uses his ability to play a card with a requirement he
> > > normally doesnt fullfill, then plays Descen into Darkness and returns,
> > > can he use his ability for that requirement again?
>
> > > I assume the "new" Vidal is indeed a new Vidal and isnt tainted by the
> > > cards the first Vidal played?
>
> > It's not a "new" Vidal; going to the ashheap wipes such things clean,
> > but simply becoming out of play does not; he is out of play just as if
> > he was being contested.
>
> > So when he returns to play, he's still the same copy of Vidal as
> > before, with all the same 'I've used this ability' restrictions as
> > before. (He'd still be an Anarch if he had previously gone anarch as
> > well; equipment and discipline masters would still be on him; he'd
> > still be Bahari if he'd used Lilith's blessing, etc.)
>
> > -John Flournoy
>
> Is that a specific point in the rules? I couldnt see see anything
> there, so I looked at effects that puts minions into uncontrolled. All
> of them mention cards and counters. (See below)
> All of the things you mentioned leave either a card or a counter on
> the minion playing them, where as Vidals ability doesnt.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2744b0ddcff2b0af
(expand the quoted text for more precise answer - I guess Descent into
Darkness adds to the Banishment / Contest list).
>
> On another nore, does this "track" the specific crypt card? What if I
> bring in another copy of Vidal? Would I be able to use the ability
> again then?
This tracks the specific(*) card. Another copy of Vidal is another
copy of Vidal.
(*): Merged vampires are considered the same card. (and any effect
that was applying to one of them applies to the merged vampire)
John Flournoy
not a "new" Vidal; going to the ashheap wipes such things clean,
> > but simply becoming out of play does not; he is out of play just as if
> > he was being contested.
>
> > So when he returns to play, he's still the same copy of Vidal as
> > before, with all the same 'I've used this ability' restrictions as
> > before. (He'd still be an Anarch if he had previously gone anarch as
> > well; equipment and discipline masters would still be on him; he'd
> > still be Bahari if he'd used Lilith's blessing, etc.)
>
> > -John Flournoy
>
> Is that a specific point in the rules? I couldnt see see anything
> there, so I looked at effects that puts minions into uncontrolled. All
> of them mention cards and counters. (See below)
As noted by others, there've been rulings in the past about this;
here's a link to an LSJ-ruling thread about how Banishing a vampire
into the uncontrolled region does not remove their 'default go Anarch'
status.
> All of the things you mentioned leave either a card or a counter on
> the minion playing them, where as Vidals ability doesnt.
Actually, several of the things I mentioned leave neither a card or
counter: going Anarch does not inherently leave either via several
different methods, including the rulebook default action; becoming
Bahari does not provide card or counter.
The thread linked above also notes that going through uncontrolled
does not remove another 'no card, no counter' change: Having had your
sect changed via Into the Fire.
> Banishment
> Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they
> are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
>
> Reality
> The vampire`s blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with
> that vampire, with any counters they have on them (those cards are out
> of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
>
> Descent into Darkness
> Turn the acting vampire and any cards on him or her face down, out of
> play (breaking any temporary control effects).
Note that the wording of each of these implies that the vampire going
out of play is the same vampire as it was when it left play, not a
different entity that has been reset as if you had influenced out
another copy.
-John Flournoy
LSJ
<nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is that a specific point in the rules? I couldnt see see anything
> there, so I looked at effects that puts minions into uncontrolled. All
No, it's just a consequence of the mechanics already at work.
If you're tracking the vampire (as Descent does, see card text), then
the vampire is tracked.
Juggernaut1981
Plus remember that you can theoretically yo-yo the same vampire via
two copies of the card using Descent into Darkness. One leaves play,
the other is influenced and then at some point Descent into Darkness
before Copy #1 arrives again... and so on. But you are doing it with
two different minions called X.