Rotschreck and/or White Phosphorous Grenade (Re: multiple messages)
LSJ
> Subject: Rotschreck Question
> Waiting with baited breath for this answer:
>
> Can you play Rotschreck and then Decapitate?
No. Rotschreck ends combat. Combat cards cannot be played after combat
is ended.
> Also, I'd like a detailed explanation of why or why not; I feel like I
> should be able to figure this out, but I never bothered to get all clear
> on the "end of round/end of combat/resolve-strikes and additionals" phases
> that [Rots,Pulled Fangs,Drawing Out the Beast damage,all those types of
> cards] have to fit into.
>
> And Rotschreck does beat S:CE? Since you must attempt to strike with
> agg. damage I assume both parties will have declared strikes, which means
> S:CE could have been declared, which should resolve immediately, but
> Rotschreck "interrupts" this to end combat in a different way?
S:CE doesn't resolve when it is played - as a strike, it resolves
during (at the start of) strike resolution. Before strike resolution,
Rotschreck may be played (if one of the combatants has announced an
attempt to use agg damage against the opposing vampire, of course).
-----
> Subject: White Phos. Grenade Question
> Hm, suppose I were to declare my strike with a white phosphorous grenade,
> then play Rotschreck...? What happens to the grenade?
Nothing. It isn't burned until it is used and Rotschreck pre-empts
that use. Similarly, the grenade would not be burned if the opposing
minion used "End Combat" as his strike, since combat would end and
the grenade would not get used.
> Also what are the "either use"s referred to on the card? I see one use, to
> strike for 2R aggro.
A typo. Although it may be read to refer to either close or long range
use (yeah, right :-).
> And it says "..if it inflicts damage at close range..." so if we're at close,
> and my opponent prevents the damage or dodges, the bearer takes no damage
> either?
No. In this case, "inflicts damage" should be read as "is used" (unlike
the usual case where "inflicts" means "successfully inflicts").
-----
> Subject: Addendum to grenade/rots question
> Same question for Dragon's Breath Rounds; found this in the Rotschreck
> rulings, which indicates "combat ends before either strike does anything"
> but is the gun burned by use (or intended use) of the DBR?
Same answer. DBR only burns the gun in question when it resolves.
Rotschreck (and S:CE) would preclude that.
-----
> Subject: More Rotschreck
> Along the grenade lines...
>
> My vampire has a Wooden Stake (just blocked and went to combat), and
> Rotschreck and Lucky Blow are in my hand. What are my options?
>
> Probably the Stake isn't agg. until damage is resolved (and at least 1
> taken) so there is no way to use Rotschreck?
Good question. Makes one yearn for the paralyze rules, eh?
In the case of Wooden Stake, "inflicted" has its normal meaning of
"successfully inflicted" - that is, damage that is not prevented (or
dodged or what-not). So your hypothesis that the damage isn't agg until
it resolves (and that you cannot use Rotschreck for that reason) is
correct.
> Suppose I deal 1 damage with the Stake, then do an additional strike.
> Any damage the stake does at this point _would_ be agg. Seems like
> just as much potential as Wolf Claws.
>
> Ow, answer these so I can stop trying to figure it out. ;)
Even in the additional strike case, the damage is not aggravated until
it resolves. Unlike the Wolf Claws case where the damage is aggravated
when Claws is played (assuming that Claws if played at the usual time,
that is). Claws don't depend on successfully inflicting damage to
make the damage aggaravated.
Similarly, Relilience (superior) could be used to prevent the two
damage from the Lucky Blow Wooden Stake strike (since it is not
aggravated at that time), but could not be used to prevent the
damage from a Lucky Blow Wolf Claws strike (since the damage is
aggravated at that time).
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
Joshua Duffin
: On VTES-L, Johnny Tullner writes:
: -----
: > Subject: Addendum to grenade/rots question
: > Same question for Dragon's Breath Rounds; found this in the Rotschreck
: > rulings, which indicates "combat ends before either strike does anything"
: > but is the gun burned by use (or intended use) of the DBR?
: Same answer. DBR only burns the gun in question when it resolves.
: Rotschreck (and S:CE) would preclude that.
(DBR, of course, resolves immediately. Maybe you mean when the damage
resolves?)
VTES text on Dragon's Breath Rounds is:
"Only usable when damage from a gun is being
resolved. Minion inflicts +2 aggravated damage
each strike for the remainder of this combat. Burn
the gun after this card is used.
This is an ammo card. No more than one ammo card
can be used on a gun each combat."
The text of 'Burn the gun after this card is used' seems to me to
indicate that the gun is burned immediately on playing DBR. Unless
you want to override that, of course. ;-)
I would think that an opposing Strike:Combat Ends would not even allow
the opportunity to play Dragon's Breath Rounds, since ammo cards claim
to be played 'when damage is being resolved'.
The relevant DBR/Rotschreck ruling seems to be "Ammo cards are played
before any strikes take effect regardless of whether those strikes
deal damage or not. Thus, if a vampire who is getting shot with Dragon's
Breath Rounds is targetted by Rotschreck, the combat will end before
either strike does anything." [RTR 960221]
'Take effect' is unclear, I think. It could be taken to mean 'resolve',
but ammo cards say they're played 'as damage is being resolved', which
is after the strikes have resolved.
The ruling doesn't seem to override the 'only usable as damage is being
resolved' part of the text, so I would think that DBR is still played
during damage resolution. (Since damage resolution is divided into two
steps, damage prevention and healing damage, I would guess that DBR
should be played at the start of damage resolution, but that doesn't
seem to be spelled out anywhere.)
: > Along the grenade lines...
: >
: > My vampire has a Wooden Stake (just blocked and went to combat), and
: > Rotschreck and Lucky Blow are in my hand. What are my options?
: >
: > Probably the Stake isn't agg. until damage is resolved (and at least 1
: > taken) so there is no way to use Rotschreck?
: Good question. Makes one yearn for the paralyze rules, eh?
Sheesh. I would say so, yes.
: In the case of Wooden Stake, "inflicted" has its normal meaning of
: "successfully inflicted" - that is, damage that is not prevented (or
: dodged or what-not). So your hypothesis that the damage isn't agg until
: it resolves (and that you cannot use Rotschreck for that reason) is
: correct.
If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
(I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
Josh
can't leave well enough alone
LSJ
> LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
> : On VTES-L, Johnny Tullner writes:
> : -----
> : > Subject: Addendum to grenade/rots question
> : > Same question for Dragon's Breath Rounds; found this in the Rotschreck
> : > rulings, which indicates "combat ends before either strike does anything"
> : > but is the gun burned by use (or intended use) of the DBR?
>
> : Same answer. DBR only burns the gun in question when it resolves.
> : Rotschreck (and S:CE) would preclude that.
>
> the opportunity to play Dragon's Breath Rounds, since ammo cards claim
> to be played 'when damage is being resolved'.
Oops. Right you are. There's no opportunity to play DBR.
> : > Along the grenade lines...
> : >
> : > My vampire has a Wooden Stake (just blocked and went to combat), and
> : > Rotschreck and Lucky Blow are in my hand. What are my options?
> : >
> : > Probably the Stake isn't agg. until damage is resolved (and at least 1
> : > taken) so there is no way to use Rotschreck?
>
> : Good question. Makes one yearn for the paralyze rules, eh?
>
> Sheesh. I would say so, yes.
>
> : In the case of Wooden Stake, "inflicted" has its normal meaning of
> : "successfully inflicted" - that is, damage that is not prevented (or
> : dodged or what-not). So your hypothesis that the damage isn't agg until
> : it resolves (and that you cannot use Rotschreck for that reason) is
> : correct.
>
> If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
> a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
> by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
> at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
> (I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
> become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
> precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
Hmm. I see it as Rotschreck is played when the attempt is announced, not when
the attempt is completed and damage is being resolved. I'll put it on the
list for RT review, though.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
j...@inri.com
LSJ divulged the following secret data:
>
>> Hm, suppose I were to declare my strike with a white phosphorous grenade,
>> then play Rotschreck...? What happens to the grenade?
>
> Nothing. It isn't burned until it is used and Rotschreck pre-empts
> that use. Similarly, the grenade would not be burned if the opposing
> minion used "End Combat" as his strike, since combat would end and
> the grenade would not get used.
So declaring something as your strike does not use it, it is only "used"
when it resolves? I'm just curious how you figured this out, and if I
should have been able to figure it out from the rulebook or rulings.
>> And it says "..if it inflicts damage at close range..." so if we're at
>> close, and my opponent prevents the damage or dodges, the bearer takes
>> no damage either?
>
> No. In this case, "inflicts damage" should be read as "is used" (unlike
> the usual case where "inflicts" means "successfully inflicts").
Hm, I didn't find that as an errata/clarification, and it seems like it
should be. I think most people without the benefit of your guidance
could argue to play it by the books.
>> My vampire has a Wooden Stake (just blocked and went to combat), and
>> Rotschreck and Lucky Blow are in my hand...
>
> ...so your hypothesis that the damage isn't agg until it resolves (and
> that you cannot use Rotschreck for that reason) is correct.
>
>> Suppose I deal 1 damage with the Stake, then do an additional strike.
>> Any damage the stake does at this point _would_ be agg. Seems like
>> just as much potential as Wolf Claws.
>
> Even in the additional strike case, the damage is not aggravated until
> it resolves. Unlike the Wolf Claws case where the damage is aggravated
> when Claws is played (assuming that Claws if played at the usual time,
> that is). Claws don't depend on successfully inflicting damage to
> make the damage aggaravated.
I see your logic, but it seems like a very fine line that could easily
confuse people. A [second-strike Stake] and [Wolf Claws], both doing 1
damage, have the exact same damage potential. If they both inflict
damage, they both do 1 aggravated. If the damage is avoided, neither
has any effect.
Furthermore, the intent of Rotschreck is fear, making the "potential" of
a strike more relevant (to someone trying to figure this situation out).
As a vampire being scared, the two strikes are equally frightening. I
know that real-world logic has no bearing on the mechanics, but it could
tip the scales in this confusing case.
Perhaps an official clarification of when a Stake is aggravated would
suffice...
>> If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
>> a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
>> by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
>> at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
>> (I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
>> become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
>> precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
>
> Hmm. I see it as Rotschreck is played when the attempt is announced, not
> when the attempt is completed and damage is being resolved. I'll put it
> on the list for RT review, though.
Well, the Rotschreck ruling specifically implies that Rotschreck is
playable after DBR (timing unspecified):
"Ammo cards are played before any strikes take effect regardless of
whether those strikes deal damage or not. Thus, if a vampire who is
getting shot with Dragon's Breath Rounds is targetted by Rotschreck,
the combat will end before either strike does anything. [RTR 960221]"
So something needs to be adjusted, either your view of Rotschreck timing
or this ruling. :)
Based on this current ruling (you can play DBR then Rotschreck as it is
apparently an "attempt to use agg. damage"), Rotschreck is playable almost
any time aggravated damage comes into play, such as the beginning of
resolve strikes (when ammo cards are played), or at the start of "heal
damage" (when Stakes become aggravated). At least that's what it seems
like.
Of course, if you wait for strike resolution (with intent to play ammo
card, or hoping your Stake goes aggravated) then S:CE will resolve
before you can play Rotschreck.
I've got (I think) a worse hypothetical case for the Wooden Stake. I
don't have the exact text in front of me.* I think it's like, "if more
than 1 damage is inflicted by the WS in a combat, then that damage is
aggravated."
Suppose a vampire takes aggravated damage from a Stake, but continues
combat instead of going to torpor (using Undead Persistence for example).
Now is the Stake considered an aggravated weapon? Not only is any further
damage taken aggravated, it has already shown that it will do aggravated
damage.
With our original conclusion that Rotschreck is not playable in any way
with a Stake, you could have the situation:
Vamps A & B in combat.
B just dealt 2 damage to A with a Wooden Stake.
A plays Undead Persistence.
Press.
B stabs A for 1 aggravated damage. Still can't play Rotschreck...
Press.
B stabs A for 1 aggravated damage. Still can't play Rotschreck...
and so on...
I suspect player B, having not seen or had a chance to accept your
explanation, would be quite irate, and argue heatedly in favor of
Rotschreck.
* It seems your lists, LSJ, are missing the VTES cards the same way mine
are. :) I guess I'll try to find them and type them up myself.
++ "Whenever I hear the sparrow chirping, watch the woodpecker chirp, ++ ++
catch a chirping trout, or listen to the sad howl of the chirp rat, ++ ++
I think: Oh boy! I'm going insane again." ++
Joshua Duffin
[re: strike:combat ends vs Dragon Breath Rounds]
: Oops. Right you are. There's no opportunity to play DBR.
Okay. But you seem to have left off the answer regarding Rotschreck. ;-)
Does the DBR, as I think, burn the gun immediately, even if someone
plays Rotschreck right after the DBR is played?
[re: Rotschreck, Wooden Stake, and Lucky Blow]
[I wrote]
: > If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
: > a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
: > by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
: > at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
: > (I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
: > become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
: > precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
: Hmm. I see it as Rotschreck is played when the attempt is announced, not when
: the attempt is completed and damage is being resolved. I'll put it on the
: list for RT review, though.
The wording on Rotschreck isn't very helpful. "Play when a minion attempts
to use aggravated damage against a vampire, whether successfully or not.
Combat ends before damage is resolved. [...]"
The 'whether successfully or not' bit may imply that success could be
evaluated before you play the Rotschreck - for example, that a blocking
Gangrel could hit a Ventrue with Claws, the Ventrue can play Skin of
Steel to prevent it, and then the Gangrel's Methuselah could play
Rotschreck even though the agg was 'unsuccessful'. Possibly.
Alternatively, the 'when a minion attempts' part might imply that you
can only play Rotschreck when the 'attempt' is declared. You see why
I'm unclear on the matter. ;-)
The 'combat ends before damage is resolved' sentence does seem to imply
that you should generally not get as far as damage resolution. That would
rule out the Gangrel vs Skin of Steel scenario. But if you can't play
Rotschreck *during* damage resolution, you shouldn't be able to use it
with a Dragon's Breath Rounds either.
Josh
if the devil can't afford a lawyer, I guess I'll just have to argue for him...
Joshua Duffin
: * It seems your lists, LSJ, are missing the VTES cards the same way mine
: are. :) I guess I'll try to find them and type them up myself.
Although the Rulemonger pages don't have VTES card texts, the Wizards
website does. You can find them at "http://www.wizards.com/VTES", under
the Card Sets link. (I'm always wanting to look up card texts while
posting here myself...)
Josh
of course, there are no guarantees that the online spoilers are 100%
accurate...
LSJ
> LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
> [re: strike:combat ends vs Dragon Breath Rounds]
> : Oops. Right you are. There's no opportunity to play DBR.
>
> Okay. But you seem to have left off the answer regarding Rotschreck. ;-)
> Does the DBR, as I think, burn the gun immediately, even if someone
> plays Rotschreck right after the DBR is played?
No. It only burns the gun after it [DBR] is used. The ruling is
that this means after DBR has its effect. It could easily go the
other way of course, but I think the current ruling makes more
sense, game-world-wise.
> [re: Rotschreck, Wooden Stake, and Lucky Blow]
>
> [I wrote]
>
> : > If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
> : > a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
> : > by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
> : > at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
> : > (I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
> : > become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
> : > precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
>
> : Hmm. I see it as Rotschreck is played when the attempt is announced, not when
> : the attempt is completed and damage is being resolved. I'll put it on the
> : list for RT review, though.
>
> The wording on Rotschreck isn't very helpful. "Play when a minion attempts
> to use aggravated damage against a vampire, whether successfully or not.
> Combat ends before damage is resolved. [...]"
>
> The 'whether successfully or not' bit may imply that success could be
> evaluated before you play the Rotschreck - for example, that a blocking
> Gangrel could hit a Ventrue with Claws, the Ventrue can play Skin of
> Steel to prevent it, and then the Gangrel's Methuselah could play
> Rotschreck even though the agg was 'unsuccessful'. Possibly.
Good point - even more to chew on for the RT :-)
> Alternatively, the 'when a minion attempts' part might imply that you
> can only play Rotschreck when the 'attempt' is declared. You see why
> I'm unclear on the matter. ;-)
>
> The 'combat ends before damage is resolved' sentence does seem to imply
> that you should generally not get as far as damage resolution. That would
> rule out the Gangrel vs Skin of Steel scenario. But if you can't play
> Rotschreck *during* damage resolution, you shouldn't be able to use it
> with a Dragon's Breath Rounds either.
Yeah. This is one of the arguments for saying that ammo should've used
the same timing rules as Claws. Or (in other words) if ammo's
modification to damage can be effective when played during damage
resolution, why do Claws have to be played before strike resolution?
The RT list is getting longer.
(For now, though, Rotschreck *can* be played after DBR is played, since
the current rulings show).
LSJ
> LSJ divulged the following secret data:
> >> Hm, suppose I were to declare my strike with a white phosphorous grenade,
> >> then play Rotschreck...? What happens to the grenade?
> >
> > Nothing. It isn't burned until it is used and Rotschreck pre-empts
> > that use. Similarly, the grenade would not be burned if the opposing
> > minion used "End Combat" as his strike, since combat would end and
> > the grenade would not get used.
>
> So declaring something as your strike does not use it, it is only "used"
> when it resolves? I'm just curious how you figured this out, and if I
> should have been able to figure it out from the rulebook or rulings.
The rules and ruling list don't help much here. It's just semantics
(which, in this case, aren't as clear as would be desired).
Choosing a course of action to be taken is not the same as taking
action. Which is why the "choose strike" phase is named "choose strike".
You choose a strike to use and then (after your opponent has done the
same) the strike is used. The strike isn't actually used until strike
resolution.
> >> And it says "..if it inflicts damage at close range..." so if we're at
> >> close, and my opponent prevents the damage or dodges, the bearer takes
> >> no damage either?
> >
> > No. In this case, "inflicts damage" should be read as "is used" (unlike
> > the usual case where "inflicts" means "successfully inflicts").
>
> Hm, I didn't find that as an errata/clarification, and it seems like it
> should be. I think most people without the benefit of your guidance
> could argue to play it by the books.
OK. I'll add it to the errata list.
> >> My vampire has a Wooden Stake (just blocked and went to combat), and
> >> Rotschreck and Lucky Blow are in my hand...
> >
> > ...so your hypothesis that the damage isn't agg until it resolves (and
> > that you cannot use Rotschreck for that reason) is correct.
> >
> >> Suppose I deal 1 damage with the Stake, then do an additional strike.
> >> Any damage the stake does at this point _would_ be agg. Seems like
> >> just as much potential as Wolf Claws.
> >
> > Even in the additional strike case, the damage is not aggravated until
> > it resolves. Unlike the Wolf Claws case where the damage is aggravated
> > when Claws is played (assuming that Claws if played at the usual time,
> > that is). Claws don't depend on successfully inflicting damage to
> > make the damage aggaravated.
>
> I see your logic, but it seems like a very fine line that could easily
> confuse people. A [second-strike Stake] and [Wolf Claws], both doing 1
> damage, have the exact same damage potential. If they both inflict
> damage, they both do 1 aggravated. If the damage is avoided, neither
> has any effect.
Potential (as you use it) isn't the issue. The Stake's damage doesn't
become aggravated until it resolves. Claws make all hand damage
aggravated, before resolution.
> Furthermore, the intent of Rotschreck is fear, making the "potential" of
> a strike more relevant (to someone trying to figure this situation out).
> As a vampire being scared, the two strikes are equally frightening. I
> know that real-world logic has no bearing on the mechanics, but it could
> tip the scales in this confusing case.
This would only serve to cloud the issue, as players would then be able
argue that a vampire who will play Skin of Steel (or who will strike
to end combat or dodge or who will treat the aggravated damage as
normal damage) won't be scared. Unless someone is planning to play
Direct Intervention on the Skin of Steel. And so on.
> Perhaps an official clarification of when a Stake is aggravated would
> suffice...
It is aggravated when more than 1 damage is inflicted, as the card says.
> >> If DBR is played at start of damage resolution, that does put it in
> >> a slightly different timing situation from the Wooden Stake, but not
> >> by all that much. I would say that Rotschreck should still be playable
> >> at the start of 'heal damage', when Wooden Stake damage becomes agg.
> >> (I suppose I'm basically proposing here that Wooden Stake damage should
> >> become agg at start of 'heal damage', since there is probably no existing
> >> precedent for when Wooden Stake's additional damage becomes agg.)
> >
> > Hmm. I see it as Rotschreck is played when the attempt is announced, not
> > when the attempt is completed and damage is being resolved. I'll put it
> > on the list for RT review, though.
>
> Well, the Rotschreck ruling specifically implies that Rotschreck is
> playable after DBR (timing unspecified):
>
> "Ammo cards are played before any strikes take effect regardless of
> whether those strikes deal damage or not. Thus, if a vampire who is
> getting shot with Dragon's Breath Rounds is targetted by Rotschreck,
> the combat will end before either strike does anything. [RTR 960221]"
>
> So something needs to be adjusted, either your view of Rotschreck timing
> or this ruling. :)
Or the timing of ammo, yep.
> Based on this current ruling (you can play DBR then Rotschreck as it is
> apparently an "attempt to use agg. damage"), Rotschreck is playable almost
> any time aggravated damage comes into play, such as the beginning of
> resolve strikes (when ammo cards are played), or at the start of "heal
> damage" (when Stakes become aggravated). At least that's what it seems
> like.
>
> Of course, if you wait for strike resolution (with intent to play ammo
> card, or hoping your Stake goes aggravated) then S:CE will resolve
> before you can play Rotschreck.
Right.
> I've got (I think) a worse hypothetical case for the Wooden Stake. I
> don't have the exact text in front of me.* I think it's like, "if more
> than 1 damage is inflicted by the WS in a combat, then that damage is
> aggravated."
Right. The exact text (from the WotC spoiler list) is: "If more than 1
damage is inflicted with this weapon, all additional damage is
aggravated."
> Suppose a vampire takes aggravated damage from a Stake, but continues
> combat instead of going to torpor (using Undead Persistence for example).
> Now is the Stake considered an aggravated weapon? Not only is any further
> damage taken aggravated, it has already shown that it will do aggravated
> damage.
Yes. Once "more than 1 damage" has been inflicted (successfully), the
stake's damage is aggaravated. In this case, Rotschreck could be
played on any of the subsequent "choose strike" phases in which the
stake is chosen.
> With our original conclusion that Rotschreck is not playable in any way
> with a Stake, you could have the situation:
>
> Vamps A & B in combat.
> B just dealt 2 damage to A with a Wooden Stake.
> A plays Undead Persistence.
> Press.
> B stabs A for 1 aggravated damage. Still can't play Rotschreck...
> Press.
> B stabs A for 1 aggravated damage. Still can't play Rotschreck...
> and so on...
>
> I suspect player B, having not seen or had a chance to accept your
> explanation, would be quite irate, and argue heatedly in favor of
> Rotschreck.
And he would be right. I overlooked the possibility of successfully
inflicted agg damage on a vampire and having combat continue anyhow.
> * It seems your lists, LSJ, are missing the VTES cards the same way mine
> are. :) I guess I'll try to find them and type them up myself.
WotC has some. "My" lists (I assume you refer to the lists on
the Rulemonger site) are just the lists compiled by Shane Travis.
Joshua Duffin
: Joshua Duffin wrote:
: > [re: strike:combat ends vs Dragon Breath Rounds]
: >
: > Does the DBR, as I think, burn the gun immediately, even if someone
: > plays Rotschreck right after the DBR is played?
: No. It only burns the gun after it [DBR] is used. The ruling is
: that this means after DBR has its effect. It could easily go the
: other way of course, but I think the current ruling makes more
: sense, game-world-wise.
Okay, I'll buy that.
: > [re: Rotschreck, Wooden Stake, and Lucky Blow]
: >
: > The wording on Rotschreck isn't very helpful. "Play when a minion attempts
: > to use aggravated damage against a vampire, whether successfully or not.
: > Combat ends before damage is resolved. [...]"
: >
: > The 'whether successfully or not' bit may imply that success could be
: > evaluated before you play the Rotschreck - for example, that a blocking
: > Gangrel could hit a Ventrue with Claws, the Ventrue can play Skin of
: > Steel to prevent it, and then the Gangrel's Methuselah could play
: > Rotschreck even though the agg was 'unsuccessful'. Possibly.
: Good point - even more to chew on for the RT :-)
I wouldn't want them to run out of things to think about, you know.
: > Alternatively, the 'when a minion attempts' part might imply that you
: > can only play Rotschreck when the 'attempt' is declared. You see why
: > I'm unclear on the matter. ;-)
: >
: > The 'combat ends before damage is resolved' sentence does seem to imply
: > that you should generally not get as far as damage resolution. That would
: > rule out the Gangrel vs Skin of Steel scenario. But if you can't play
: > Rotschreck *during* damage resolution, you shouldn't be able to use it
: > with a Dragon's Breath Rounds either.
: Yeah. This is one of the arguments for saying that ammo should've used
: the same timing rules as Claws. Or (in other words) if ammo's
: modification to damage can be effective when played during damage
: resolution, why do Claws have to be played before strike resolution?
Yes, that would be the question. Possibly it is because ammo cards
explicitly say to play them during damage resolution; why they say
that isn't obvious though.
: The RT list is getting longer.
: (For now, though, Rotschreck *can* be played after DBR is played, since
: the current rulings show).
Works for me. Just to clarify, the Rules Team is going to consider
when Rotschreck should be played (relative to when the agg damage is
announced/resolved) as well as what conditions should allow it to
be playable?
Josh
"Nighthawk?"