Thoughts on 1st Milton Keynes (UK) Tourney 10/11/01
hamdamcwa
just HAD to say a few words about a really well organised event.
A lot of people showed up to this new venue (I heard the number 25
being mentioned at one stage) and I have to say I had some of the most
enjoyable games I have had in a long time. There is a large hitherto
undiscovered (by the wider VTES community) group of players in Milton
Keynes, and whilst I didn't really get to play against any of them bar
2 the whole day, I did hear that they are all good players and one
would have made the final had it not been for a last minute burst by
Paul Sheppard and his sneaky bleedy Lasombra. This is a good thing
(tm), and I do hope they will be joining in other events a bit further
south! It would be great to see them.
As far as things went, it was a very good day. A lot of experienced
players came along under the provioso Matt Green set - "not to bring
anything too nasty to smash in the newbies!" - all overseen by the
expert guidance of James Coupe. To a man, I think this caveat was
followed! Only a shame that Matt himself couldn't make it - his missus
Alice was having contractions and about to give birth (which is why I
was amazed that he still drove 1 1/2 hours up to Milton Keynes to say
hello with her in toe!) so I hope by now they have a beautiful baby
daughter - any comments or news gladly accepted!
As far as I remember (and this IS me we are talking about...) here are
some of the decks and players:
Legbiter played a thoroughly sporting "leftovers" deck, using only a
box of Jyhad that he had lying around. He had a stunning return to
form (probably helped by his recent trip to the US) and went into the
final with 11 points. In a nutshell, it was a weenie presence voting
kind of thing, using lots of BOs and Charming Lobbies.
Tony Smith (Luton) unleashed a Gangrel Royalty deck. Lots of big,
nasty Potence gangrels and a lot more than just rush. However, without
Wynn making as many appearances, he suffered, and I don't think he got
a lot of points.
Martin Cubberley (Luton) showed a Lasombra combat / graverob deck.
Nasty amounts of sleeze, but it didn't take off at all. I think he
went home empty handed.
Adam Payne (Luton) was playing a very nasty Setite Free States Rant
deck, using lots of Presence, and also the Assamite Aziz. This worked
very well, and cruised into the final with about 7 VPs.
Tony Carue (Luton) played a very tasty looking Assamites with
fortitude deck. I think he suffered from card flow, though, and I
think he scored very few points.
Paul Sheppard, as mentioned earlier, was playing a Lasombra bleed
deck. It stealthed. It bled. It deflected. Into the final with a
respectable 6 VPs.
Anthony Lown was playing a !Malky bleed deck "with other stuff". I
didn't see it go, but I did hear he scored no points. A shame - he is
full of enthusiasm for the game, but rarely seems to get it right.
Steve Lake ONCE AGAIN played Tzimisce and suffered from the same
problem I usually have playing them - lack of pool! After setting up a
good wall, he got stealth bled out very quickly in at least 2 games.
Pierre Rebstock played weenie potence. Rush and smash was the aim of
the deck, with a few computer hackings. It did the job nicely, getting
into the final with 8VPs. I think this proves that the UK scene,
although very combat focussed, is still unused to this sort of deck.
Mike Nudd played his usual Tremere deck, which is still a brave move
in the current Grapple friendly environment. He wasn't as lucky as
other players and scored very few VPs (I think he scored 1 or none).
Andy Brown from Cambridge and at least 2 of the Milton Keynes players
(one of which was a lady called Mo, the other I didn't catch his name
- Steve?) played Setite decks. I didn't see what they did, so any help
would be appreciated there!
Ian Turner also from Cambridge played a Lasombra sleeze deck almost
identical to Paul Sheppard's. I know he got at least 2VPs, but other
than that I'm not sure.
Phil Mattingly played a votey camerilla deck using lots of Treadors.
Interesting use of their celerity for Flashes to then Majesty - this
saved his skin many times. I think he scored respectably, but not
enough for the final (about 2.5).
A chap called Wes who I hadn't seen before played a Tremere deck in
one of the games I was in. Standard intercept and combat made this a
good looking deck, but I don't think he scored any VPs.
Another chap called James (I think) from southampton played a nossie
potence deck. However, in the game I was in he seemed to lack any
rushes. Whether or not he improved is open to comment from anyone
else.
Our Host Iain Wilson played a variant of the Theo Bell and Beast with
fortitude deck (nasty), and scored some points along the way.
I played a EuroBrujah Long Range workout rush deck I call "The
EuroBrujah know what you did last summer..." , simply down to the
large number of Thoughts Betrayed in it. I've posted it below.
I've missed loads of people, but if anyone wants to shout up it would
be great to have a full picture!
Anyway, into the final went (in starting order)
Paul Sheppard (6VP)
Pierre Rebstock (8VP)
Legbiter (11VP)
Adam Payne (7VP?)
David Hammond (me! 5VP)
In the final, a lot of predictable things happened, and a revelation
occurred. Predicatble was the weenie voting and bleeding of Legbiter,
the stealthy bleed of Paul Sheppard, the weenie rush of Pierre and the
Free States Ranting of Adam Payne. I mostly sat there and blustered
and worried and made a tit of myself. The revelation was that I'm not
that good a player, and I only luck into finals, lots of finals!
After a short while, and with some coaxing from Pierre (who was
worried when Gratiano came out), I opened up with a big rush at Paul,
crushing Aurora Van Brand into torpor and watching Pierre smash
Gratiano to a similar end. Then I went back and beat up Adams Setites
a bit. With that in place, and after Pierres relentless lebiter
bashing, teh comabt decks (mine and Pierres) swiftly mopped up the
pieces to duke it out.
When there were only two, Pierre soon found my I had him outmaneuvered
- literally! I had Anvil and Donal up with a gun on Donal. This meant
his deck, effectively a short ranger, would crumble in the long term.
This was borne out by the fact he had no active vampires, 6 bloodless
vampires in torpor, and 8 pool left. I had the edge, and about 3 pool,
but time on my side. He conceeded shortly afterwards.
So I won for the first time. As I said, pure luck.
Here's the deck:
Deck Name: The Eurobrujah know what you did last summer...
Created by: DH
Description: Long range cel / pot workout with Thoughts Betrayed
stopping any nastiness...
Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 6.25]
2 Anvil (dom CEL POT pre tha, Brujah, 6,
Primogen)
2 Constanza Vinti (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
2 Dónal O'Connor (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
1 Dre (cel pot, Brujah, 3)
2 Theo Bell (cel dom POT pre, Brujah, 7)
2 Volker (CEL pot, Brujah, 5, Prince)
1 Yuri (cel pot pre, Brujah, 4)
Library: (89 cards)
Master (13 cards)
1 Barrens, The
4 Blood Doll
2 Dominate
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Haven Uncovered
1 Succubus Club
1 Sudden Reversal
Minion (76 cards)
2 .44 Magnum
1 Ambush
5 Blur
7 Bum's Rush
2 Decapitate
4 Deflection
7 Flash
2 Govern the Unaligned
2 Infernal Pursuit
5 Pursuit
2 Rampage
3 Second Tradition: Domain, The
2 Side Strike
2 Sideslip
4 Taste of Vitae
6 Thoughts Betrayed
6 Thrown Gate
10 Thrown Sewer Lid
1 Triole's Revenge
3 Wake with Evening's Freshness
Sucks against damage prevention, and dies vs Drawing out the Beast. It
also has limited blood gen - but once you have 2 vampires up, you are
usually safe. Other than that, it has great card flow, superb handling
and really does the business. Not a great deck, or original, but my
best effort in the last few months.
Notes:
1) Trioles Revenge is in there just because I have been against a lot
of Ventrue decks lately. I did have Graverobbing in there, which I
will probably revert to at some stage.
2) The 44s are key permenants in the endame - as borne out earlier.
3) NO HUNTING GROUND! You don't need it - steal the ineveitable Rack.
Interesting that I hunted only once with one vampire all day!
4) Best card for flow... ever - Infernal Pursuit (sup)! Can be played
any time in combat and really clears a hand jam. Has no-one noticed
this before? I don't think I have seen it mentioned.
5) Only 2 rares in the deck! You don't need a horde of pricey rares to
win.
Anyway, I hope Iain or someone else will chip in
Best regards
DH
Iain Wilson
Anyway, thanks to all that turned up and a big thank you for James to
reffing the whole event. Suffice to say the styles of play
experienced on the day has certainly opened the collective eyes of the
Jyhad community in Milton Keynes!
For the record, the decks played by "our lot" were as follows:
Mo Westwood played a Setite stealth/bleed thingy that would have done
extremly well had it not been for her Stupid Mistake (TM) on the last
table. However, I won't embaress the poor lady by going on about that
here ;)
Andy Reily played a weenie vote deck made up primarily of Toreador and
Igos. After a bad start the lad managed to scoop 2.5vps at his final
table.
Jason Downey played a Setite corruption deck, which much to my chagrin
I did not get to play. Theo and Beast were simply itching for revenge
for past humilations at Mr. Downey's hands...
Chris Grice played his "Demented Wolves" !Malk deck which consisted of
stealth/bleed with added protean for combat.
As has been mentioned before, Wes Williams played a Tremere intercept
deck, with a lot of Thaumaturgy for added hurting.
Matt Sanderson played a Lasombra Stealth/Bleed deck with the odd vote
chucked in here and there.
Dan Banks (lives in Southampton but he's getting bundled in with our
lot as he role plays here :)) played a Nossie stealth/potence deck
which, despite his worst fears didn't "suck massive cock" (his words)
and managed to net 2vps.
Chris Slinn played Assamites, and seemed to spend most of his time at
the last table kicking lumps out of Anthony's !malks.
Ginger Steve played his Brujah rush deck, which I'm assured aquitted
itself valiently.
Lastly there was me with my Theo/Beast combo. While I only managed to
net 2vps, I did have fun torporing, burning and diablerising a hideous
amount of vampires.
All in all it was a fun day, and I would like to extend my thanks to
all of those that showed up and made it work. Extra thanks go to
those (Matt Green and James McLellan I believe) who were kind enough
to show up with stack loads of cards for the newbies to feast on. As
far as I'm aware they were all gone by the end of the day :)
Now that I've got over the initial trepidation of "Oh my goodness it's
all going to go horribley wrong" I think I'll set about orgainising
another one :)
Cheers,
Iain.
legbiter
> I don't know if Iain is going to post up anything, but I thought I
> just HAD to say a few words about a really well organised event.
>
> A lot of people showed up to this new venue (I heard the number 25
> being mentioned at one stage) and I have to say I had some of the most
> enjoyable games I have had in a long time.
Indeed, 5 tables of 5. BIG tourney and well-organised - props to
Iain!!
There is a large hitherto
> undiscovered (by the wider VTES community) group of players in Milton
> Keynes, and whilst I didn't really get to play against any of them bar
> 2 the whole day, I did hear that they are all good players and one
Mo Westwood IIRC, playing a biggish Setite sneak-bleed deck. She would
have made it EASILY had she not been my prey in the third heat at a
table where all the other players were MKites, so i was able to put
the weasel lock on her cos they were more scared of her than of me.
> would have made the final had it not been for a last minute burst by
> Paul Sheppard and his sneaky bleedy Lasombra. This is a good thing
> (tm), and I do hope they will be joining in other events a bit further
> south! It would be great to see them.
Indeed!
>
> As far as things went, it was a very good day. A lot of experienced
> players came along under the provioso Matt Green set - "not to bring
> anything too nasty to smash in the newbies!" - all overseen by the
> expert guidance of James Coupe. To a man, I think this caveat was
> followed! Only a shame that Matt himself couldn't make it - his missus
> Alice was having contractions and about to give birth (which is why I
> was amazed that he still drove 1 1/2 hours up to Milton Keynes to say
> hello with her in toe!) so I hope by now they have a beautiful baby
> daughter - any comments or news gladly accepted!
>
> As far as I remember (and this IS me we are talking about...) here are
> some of the decks and players:
>
> Legbiter played a thoroughly sporting "leftovers" deck, using only a
> box of Jyhad that he had lying around. He had a stunning return to
> form (probably helped by his recent trip to the US) and went into the
> final with 11 points. In a nutshell, it was a weenie presence voting
> kind of thing, using lots of BOs and Charming Lobbies.
Made from ONE box of Jyhad boosters which i bought from the Fiend of
the Atlanta ballet [part-time]; two charming lobbies, maybe 4-ish BOs.
My aim was to make the best deck i could from this card-pool and since
i don't enjoy playing undiluted Malkavian stealth-bleed i went for
weenie presence vote/bleed/swarm with combat-avoidance toolbox. i also
put in some vote reaction and that worked remarkably well - Elder
Kindred Network blackmail, quite hilarious. The combat toolbox also
provided a champagne moment when i pressed TO CONTINUE combat against
Adam Payne's Kephamos on 0 blood. Quote: "WTF is THAT doing in your
deck????" Political Ally was VERY useful, just sat there most of the
time so that people would not block the bleeds for one. Nice deck,
kept fighting right to the end and but for a first-turn sudden on my
ONLY Hostile takeover, and losing a key vote at the end by ONE card,
things might have gone differently. As it is, yet another tournament
where i get the most VPs and STILL don't win. Sigh. i actually won all
three of the heats i played in, sweeping the third heat and
table-splitting the other two 3-2 with combat decks; the first time it
was Dave, the second time it was iain.
>
> Tony Smith (Luton) unleashed a Gangrel Royalty deck. Lots of big,
> nasty Potence gangrels and a lot more than just rush. However, without
> Wynn making as many appearances, he suffered, and I don't think he got
> a lot of points.
i think he won his third-heat game with 3VP, however.
>
> Martin Cubberley (Luton) showed a Lasombra combat / graverob deck.
> Nasty amounts of sleeze, but it didn't take off at all. I think he
> went home empty handed.
>
> Adam Payne (Luton) was playing a very nasty Setite Free States Rant
> deck, using lots of Presence, and also the Assamite Aziz. This worked
> very well, and cruised into the final with about 7 VPs.
Where it struggled with pool/blood gain, because it lacked the
vote-lock to pull off the Voter caps. Still, nice idea, and survived
my onslaught only to be brought low by Pierre.
>
> Tony Carue (Luton) played a very tasty looking Assamites with
> fortitude deck. I think he suffered from card flow, though, and I
> think he scored very few points.
Again, he won his third heat game with 3VP IIRC.
>
> Paul Sheppard, as mentioned earlier, was playing a Lasombra bleed
> deck. It stealthed. It bled. It deflected. Into the final with a
> respectable 6 VPs.
And then it found itself in the combat sandwich and showed off its
fourth trick: it died.
>
> Anthony Lown was playing a !Malky bleed deck "with other stuff". I
> didn't see it go, but I did hear he scored no points. A shame - he is
> full of enthusiasm for the game, but rarely seems to get it right.
>
> Steve Lake ONCE AGAIN played Tzimisce and suffered from the same
> problem I usually have playing them - lack of pool! After setting up a
> good wall, he got stealth bled out very quickly in at least 2 games.
>
> Pierre Rebstock played weenie potence. Rush and smash was the aim of
> the deck, with a few computer hackings. It did the job nicely, getting
> into the final with 8VPs. I think this proves that the UK scene,
> although very combat focussed, is still unused to this sort of deck.
>
> Mike Nudd played his usual Tremere deck, which is still a brave move
> in the current Grapple friendly environment. He wasn't as lucky as
> other players and scored very few VPs (I think he scored 1 or none).
>
> Andy Brown from Cambridge and at least 2 of the Milton Keynes players
> (one of which was a lady called Mo, the other I didn't catch his name
> - Steve?) played Setite decks. I didn't see what they did, so any help
> would be appreciated there!
Andy's deck liked Form of Corruption, votes, wee stealthy bleeds,
Enticements and Spying missions. Mo's was as described above.
>
> Ian Turner also from Cambridge played a Lasombra sleeze deck almost
> identical to Paul Sheppard's. I know he got at least 2VPs, but other
> than that I'm not sure.
>
> Phil Mattingly played a votey camerilla deck using lots of Treadors.
> Interesting use of their celerity for Flashes to then Majesty - this
> saved his skin many times. I think he scored respectably, but not
> enough for the final (about 2.5).
>
> A chap called Wes who I hadn't seen before played a Tremere deck in
> one of the games I was in. Standard intercept and combat made this a
> good looking deck, but I don't think he scored any VPs.
>
> Another chap called James (I think) from southampton played a nossie
> potence deck. However, in the game I was in he seemed to lack any
> rushes. Whether or not he improved is open to comment from anyone
> else.
>
> Our Host Iain Wilson played a variant of the Theo Bell and Beast with
> fortitude deck (nasty), and scored some points along the way.
>
> I played a EuroBrujah Long Range workout rush deck I call "The
> EuroBrujah know what you did last summer..." , simply down to the
> large number of Thoughts Betrayed in it. I've posted it below.
>
> I've missed loads of people, but if anyone wants to shout up it would
> be great to have a full picture!
Other decks i saw:
A Tremere pool gain/wall deck fielded by one of the MK players.
Daniel Banks from Southampton playing a Nossie bleed deck with light
punchiness and heavy stealth.
2 MKites playing Lasombra bleed decks, one of them bashy, the other
stealthy.
<snip account of final and deck>
Well done on your win, Dave! See you in december!
Andrew S. Davidson
>1 Succubus Club
What's this for? A protection racket?
>Minion (76 cards)
If the deck has such great card flow that you expect to be left with
just your Magnums, why don't you have the full 90 cards? One can't
argue with success but I don't understand it.
Andrew
Peter D Bakija
>>Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 17, Max: 32, Avg: 6.25]
2 Anvil (dom CEL POT pre tha, Brujah, 6, Primogen)
2 Constanza Vinti (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
2 Dónal O'Connor (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
1 Dre (cel pot, Brujah, 3)
2 Theo Bell (cel dom POT pre, Brujah, 7)
2 Volker (CEL pot, Brujah, 5, Prince)
1 Yuri (cel pot pre, Brujah, 4)>>
Why Yuri instead of either Jacobbb Bragg or Jimmy Dunn? I'd probably be
inclined to replace Yuri and one of either Volker or Taco Bell with a pair of
Jimmy Dunns. You always want 2, so you don't fall behind in the Jimmy Dunn arms
race.
>>Library: (89 cards)
Master (13 cards)
1 Barrens, The
4 Blood Doll
2 Dominate
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Haven Uncovered
1 Succubus Club
1 Sudden Reversal>>
The Barrens probably doesn't need to be here, as you have 2 Dreams which is
usually sufficient. The SC is funny, but probably better off as a Fame. Same
with the Sudden Reversal.
>>Minion (76 cards)
2 .44 Magnum
1 Ambush
5 Blur
7 Bum's Rush
2 Decapitate
4 Deflection
7 Flash
2 Govern the Unaligned
2 Infernal Pursuit
5 Pursuit
2 Rampage
3 Second Tradition: Domain, The
2 Side Strike
2 Sideslip
4 Taste of Vitae
6 Thoughts Betrayed
6 Thrown Gate
10 Thrown Sewer Lid
1 Triole's Revenge
3 Wake with Evening's Freshness>>
Looks fairly solid--why only 76 cards? Can you not bear to go up to 90 by
adding one more card?
:-)
>>Sucks against damage prevention, and dies vs Drawing out the Beast. It
also has limited blood gen - but once you have 2 vampires up, you are
usually safe. Other than that, it has great card flow, superb handling
and really does the business. Not a great deck, or original, but my
best effort in the last few months.>>
Looks perfectly solid. I'd be concerned that it is too slow--too many large
vampires--and that you'd take too much damage from a fast predator before you
got established. Once you have a couple vampires out, however, you should be
just fine, with the Wakes and 2nds.
>>3) NO HUNTING GROUND! You don't need it - steal the ineveitable Rack.
Interesting that I hunted only once with one vampire all day!>>
I've been saying this for years. You don't need much blood with this deck, it
isn't going totake much damage, and you have some Tastes to pick up the slack.
>>4) Best card for flow... ever - Infernal Pursuit (sup)! Can be played
any time in combat and really clears a hand jam. Has no-one noticed
this before? I don't think I have seen it mentioned.>>
It is kind of risky overkill for hand jam, but certainly does the trick.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"...and the only person I can stand to be around
is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!"
-Buffy
hamdamcwa
> 2 Anvil (dom CEL POT pre tha, Brujah, 6, Primogen)
> 2 Constanza Vinti (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
> 2 Dónal O'Connor (CEL DOM POT, Brujah, 8, Prince)
> 1 Dre (cel pot, Brujah, 3)
> 2 Theo Bell (cel dom POT pre, Brujah, 7)
> 2 Volker (CEL pot, Brujah, 5, Prince)
> 1 Yuri (cel pot pre, Brujah, 4)>>
>
> Why Yuri instead of either Jacobbb Bragg or Jimmy Dunn? I'd probably be
> inclined to replace Yuri and one of either Volker or Taco Bell with a pair of
> Jimmy Dunns. You always want 2, so you don't fall behind in the Jimmy Dunn arms
> race.
There is no Jimmy Dunn race over here - I didn't see one all day! I
kept it Brujah coz I like a tidy mono crypt. Brujahs all the way.
> >>Library: (89 cards)
> Master (13 cards)
> 1 Barrens, The
> 4 Blood Doll
> 2 Dominate
> 2 Dreams of the Sphinx
> 2 Haven Uncovered
> 1 Succubus Club
> 1 Sudden Reversal>>
>
> The Barrens probably doesn't need to be here, as you have 2 Dreams which is
> usually sufficient. The SC is funny, but probably better off as a Fame. Same
> with the Sudden Reversal.
The Barrens is free and helps cycle - 2 cycles per turn with a lot of
"only useable at long range" cards in your hand can be invaluable! The
SC helped me get 2 points in one game, and the SR saved my butt once
too. Fame is nice, but I didn't have a VTES backed one spare - and all
the other cards are VTES backed and I had no sleeves.
> Looks fairly solid--why only 76 cards? Can you not bear to go up to 90 by
> adding one more card?
>
> :-)
That would have been the Fame!
;)
In reality, one card dropped out at home - an Ambush. I was just
telling how I played it.
> >>Sucks against damage prevention, and dies vs Drawing out the Beast. It
> also has limited blood gen - but once you have 2 vampires up, you are
> usually safe. Other than that, it has great card flow, superb handling
> and really does the business. Not a great deck, or original, but my
> best effort in the last few months.>>
>
> Looks perfectly solid. I'd be concerned that it is too slow--too many large
> vampires--and that you'd take too much damage from a fast predator before you
> got established. Once you have a couple vampires out, however, you should be
> just fine, with the Wakes and 2nds.
A vampire is always out on turn 2. The bigger vampires get the magic
three disciplines (DOM CEL POT is the best) and can take more
punishment / pay for more TBs. Also, it allows 2nds and votes (for
the princes) or built in rush (with Theo).
Since we are not overflowing with weenies here, the larger vamps
aren't a problem.
> >>4) Best card for flow... ever - Infernal Pursuit (sup)! Can be played
> any time in combat and really clears a hand jam. Has no-one noticed
> this before? I don't think I have seen it mentioned.>>
>
> It is kind of risky overkill for hand jam, but certainly does the trick.
Not necessarily. It says you MAY draw the extra card, so you can cycle
as required. Useable first round and free... ace!
DH
Iain Wilson
early start that the tournament saw *coughs noisley* that it would be
named "Daring the Dawn".
Iain Wilson
V:EKN Prince of Milton Keynes
Peter D Bakija
>>There is no Jimmy Dunn race over here - I didn't see one all day! I
kept it Brujah coz I like a tidy mono crypt. Brujahs all the way.>>
Yeah, I suppose you get style points for that, but you really should be using
at least a few non Brujah vampires in this crypt. You have no Brujah specific
cards at all. Jimmy Dunn is freaking great (a 4 with POT and CEL?!?!?!?),
certainly if no one else is likely to use him. I'd still use 2, as his
disadvantage is just as often an advantage (he is currently the only vampire
you can rescue from torpor by simply influencing another one out...). And there
is no reason at all to use Yuri rather than Jacobb Bragg other than
stylishness.
>>The Barrens is free and helps cycle - 2 cycles per turn with a lot of
"only useable at long range" cards in your hand can be invaluable!>>
Oh, certainly, but at least where I come from, it is the card voted "Most
Likely to be Contested", and considering how you don't really need it (due to
the Dreams and the Infernal Pursuits), you might as well swap it out for
something less likely to be contested or stolen.
>>The SC helped me get 2 points in one game, and the SR saved my butt once
too.>>
In both those cases, you were probably better off with something more certain.
Sure, occasionally the Sudden will save you, but more often than not, you just
end up using it to kill a Skill card or a Blood Doll just to get it out of your
hand. The SC can always possibly help you out, but it can also sit there and do
nothing. I'd sooner have both of those being Fames.
>>Fame is nice, but I didn't have a VTES backed one spare - and all
the other cards are VTES backed and I had no sleeves.>>
Well, what are you gonna do?
>>Not necessarily. It says you MAY draw the extra card, so you can cycle
as required. Useable first round and free... ace!>>
Forgot about the "may" clause. Strong.
Derek Ray
wrote:
>Oh, certainly, but at least where I come from, it is the card voted "Most
>Likely to be Contested", and considering how you don't really need it (due to
Has since yielded its throne to Creepshow Casino. Tonight's second game
featured me playing CC on my first turn, my predator discarding his on
turn 4, my prey discarding his on turn 6, and my grandpredator/prey
playing bruise/bleed (and therefore not needing it).
Saving grace: Costs 2 pool to start contesting, making it not quite as
brainless a play as contesting the Barrens.
>In both those cases, you were probably better off with something more certain.
>Sure, occasionally the Sudden will save you, but more often than not, you just
>end up using it to kill a Skill card or a Blood Doll just to get it out of your
Killing Blood Dolls is a 100% worthwhile use of a Sudden -- especially
if it's your prey's Doll.
Killing skill cards is a little less high on the list, but sometimes it
can matter a great deal... say, Dominate. And of course, out-of-clan
wack-ass skill cards such as "THA on Theo Bell..." should be slapped
across the room whenever possible, unless you WANT to see him get a
Rutor's Hand and take one bleed action and one rush action each turn.
--
Derek
...Vampire Squirrel has come to bite your nuts!
James Coupe
<pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes:
>Oh, certainly, but at least where I come from, it is the card voted "Most
>Likely to be Contested", and considering how you don't really need it (due to
>the Dreams and the Infernal Pursuits), you might as well swap it out for
>something less likely to be contested or stolen.
Watching the deck, Infernal Pursuit seemed to provide a few headaches
occasionally as he seemed to end up getting quite a few "cel" vampires
which, with only 4 in the deck, is pretty bad luck.
--
James Coupe Everybody knows that "No" means "Yes"
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Just like glasses come free on the NHS
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 But the more I look through them the more I see
13D7E668C3695D623D5D I'm becoming more like Alfie
Tim Eijpe
> >>Not necessarily. It says you MAY draw the extra card, so you can cycle
> as required. Useable first round and free... ace!>>
>
> Forgot about the "may" clause. Strong.
>
As far as know there is no 'may' clause on the card. The online
cardtext:
Infernal Pursuit [Jyhad, V:TES]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card,
draw an additional card and then burn one card in your hand for each
additional card drawn.
The discard and replacement is manditory as far as I know. It would
however be a great enhancement for the card if it were may draw the
extra card.
Tim
hamdamcwa
> cardtext:
>
> Infernal Pursuit [Jyhad, V:TES]
> Cardtype: Combat
> Discipline: Celerity
> [cel] Press.
> [CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card,
> draw an additional card and then burn one card in your hand for each
> additional card drawn.
>
> The discard and replacement is manditory as far as I know. It would
> however be a great enhancement for the card if it were may draw the
> extra card.
My bad, clearly!
Even so, this is a very useful card in small doses (I only had 2
anyway), since a hand jam is a hand jam! To be used sparingly, but
better than, say Relentless Pursuit (or whatever the POT card from
Final Nights is) that makes your hand size bigger, since it is free
and first roundable.
As to James' comment, yes 3 of 7 vampires in the crypt had only cel,
but 4 had CEL, and those were the ones I always influenced as a
priority. The Infernal Pursuit element was not too big an issue since
the Dreams came out in every game.
As to the comments on Jimmy Dunn... well, fair enough. I just like
mono crypts for flavour value. Yes, archaic and yes, pointless, but I
like a tidy crypt where possible. Also, I don't have 2 Jimmy Dunns
(there seems to be a huge shortage around these parts... something to
do with Adam Payne and his "Hey Jimmy you're so fine" deck.
As to the Barrens, it is oft contested, but not as much as you'd
think. We had virtually no trouble with contestation all day from
where I was standing. The intersting thing at the moment is that Chas
Giovanni keeps showning up, so if it was contested, it became an
instant Chas stopper.
Creepshow Casino has yet to infiltrate the mass conciousness over
here. Very few cards from Final Nights have (vampires aside),
except...
1) Free States Bloody Rant
2) Crowbar Towers
3) The Saggie Fraggie
4) Clannie Contract
5) The new paths
6) Shambling Hordes
7) Enticement
Other than that, 9/10 users still prefer good ol' VTES and SW cards.
DH
Xian
> Killing Blood Dolls is a 100% worthwhile use of a Sudden -- especially
> if it's your prey's Doll.
Eh. I guess. I'm pretty much with Peter on this one. I'd rather
save my master phases for useful stuff for me. Sure, every now and
again, you're going to get hurt by a powerful master that someone else
plays. Not often enough for me to bother though. Until I start
seeing two ToGP decks per game, I'm not going to bother.
> Killing skill cards is a little less high on the list, but sometimes it
> can matter a great deal... say, Dominate. And of course, out-of-clan
> wack-ass skill cards such as "THA on Theo Bell..." should be slapped
> across the room whenever possible, unless you WANT to see him get a
> Rutor's Hand and take one bleed action and one rush action each turn.
Say...that give me an idea. :)
Xian
James Coupe
<dave...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Creepshow Casino has yet to infiltrate the mass conciousness over
>here. Very few cards from Final Nights have (vampires aside),
>except...
>
>1) Free States Bloody Rant
>2) Crowbar Towers
>3) The Saggie Fraggie
>4) Clannie Contract
>5) The new paths
>6) Shambling Hordes
>7) Enticement
Ex Nihilo seems to have entered the collective unconscious for
sniggering, thanks to Barny.
Charisma seems to be getting a few "Hmmm..." noises, every time people
toy with play Shambling Hordes.
Priestess of Sekhmet turned up on Saturday, as well as a few Ecstasy.
On cards I expect to end up somewhere:
I'd expect Blood Clot to end up in Coughs and Sneezes.
A few Setite decks might National Guard Support, because they can get
stealth on their (comparatively few) (D) actions such as Temptation
without even trying, and it would provide useful bleed defence, as well
as bartering and bargaining power.
The Sargon Fragment. (No justification necessary, is there?)
Zillah's Valley. We just need a few more people playing big decks.
On vampires (which you set aside, because they've been doing rather
well, obviously):
Theo Bell seems to be extremely popular, as a vampire. I believe Matt
Green said he rates him as the best vampire in Final Nights.
Chas seems to be cropping up with alarming regularity.
Derek Ray
>Derek Ray <lor...@yah0o.com> wrote in message news:<54c1vto5j1m9mrjs7...@4ax.com>...
>> Killing Blood Dolls is a 100% worthwhile use of a Sudden -- especially
>> if it's your prey's Doll.
>
>Eh. I guess. I'm pretty much with Peter on this one. I'd rather
>save my master phases for useful stuff for me. Sure, every now and
>again, you're going to get hurt by a powerful master that someone else
>plays. Not often enough for me to bother though. Until I start
>seeing two ToGP decks per game, I'm not going to bother.
I generally put one Sudden in, and it either goes against pool gain for
my prey, or Ridiculously Dangerous Masters. Either way, it rarely stays
in my hand long; one of those usually comes up quickly.
>> Killing skill cards is a little less high on the list, but sometimes it
>> can matter a great deal... say, Dominate. And of course, out-of-clan
>> wack-ass skill cards such as "THA on Theo Bell..." should be slapped
>> across the room whenever possible, unless you WANT to see him get a
>> Rutor's Hand and take one bleed action and one rush action each turn.
>
>Say...that give me an idea. :)
...want the deck list? =) (i played it recently =)
Peter D Bakija
>>Has since yielded its throne to Creepshow Casino. Tonight's second game
featured me playing CC on my first turn, my predator discarding his on
turn 4, my prey discarding his on turn 6, and my grandpredator/prey
playing bruise/bleed (and therefore not needing it).>>
CC is the +1 stealth location, right? Yeah, I haven't seen it much played yet.
Not saying it isn't good, but no one around here has used it much yet.
>>Killing Blood Dolls is a 100% worthwhile use of a Sudden -- especially
if it's your prey's Doll.>>
I dunno. I'd much rather, say, play my own Potence master, allowing me to kill
the vampire with the Blood Doll much more effectively. I've never been much for
the SRs--too reactive for my tastes. Granted, as Xian pointed out, when I start
running into many more ToGP decks, I'll probably reconsider the usefulness of
SRs...
Barny Baker
> In message <9e10847c.01111...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa
> <dave...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >Creepshow Casino has yet to infiltrate the mass conciousness over
> >here. Very few cards from Final Nights have (vampires aside),
> >except...
> >
> >1) Free States Bloody Rant
> >2) Crowbar Towers
> >3) The Saggie Fraggie
> >4) Clannie Contract
> >5) The new paths
> >6) Shambling Hordes
> >7) Enticement
>
> Ex Nihilo seems to have entered the collective unconscious for
> sniggering, thanks to Barny.
>
Ahem, Shove it :?)
Iain Wilson
> Green said he rates him as the best vampire in Final Nights.
And rightly so. He's The Man (TM).
Joshua Duffin
> Derek Ray <lor...@yah0o.com> wrote in message news:<54c1vto5j1m9mrjs7...@4ax.com>...
> > Killing Blood Dolls is a 100% worthwhile use of a Sudden -- especially
> > if it's your prey's Doll.
>
> Eh. I guess. I'm pretty much with Peter on this one. I'd rather
> save my master phases for useful stuff for me. Sure, every now and
> again, you're going to get hurt by a powerful master that someone else
> plays. Not often enough for me to bother though. Until I start
> seeing two ToGP decks per game, I'm not going to bother.
I think you and Peter don't see enough big-vampire decks with
Minion Tap. Suddening your prey's Tap is key. Perhaps even more
so when you're playing a combat deck where you can easily remove
all that blood and send the vampire to torpor, but it'd take you
two or three turns to bleed through the 6-9 pool.
(Around here, I think every big-vamp deck now has Minion Taps.
I've actually *run out* of Minion Taps by having multiples in
about six decks. And at the same time I've been using more of
my Suddens than ever before. Yes, they are reactive. No, that's
not a good enough reason not to use them. It's not like reacting
with your vampires, where you need to either leave them untapped
or also have a Wake to be able to react.)
The all (or mostly) Sudden deck (like, 9 Suddens and few if any
other masters) has its points - like *always* being able to stop
the Tap or Temptation of Greater Power - but just throwing in 2-3
can make the game for you. (In non-combat decks, being able to
Sudden a Haven Uncovered can also be a winning play. Or from the
other side, being able to Sudden a Secure Haven...)
Josh
...suddenly, your vampire does not reach golconda after all...
Xian
> I think you and Peter don't see enough big-vampire decks with
> Minion Tap. Suddening your prey's Tap is key. Perhaps even more
Perhaps. I see a fair amount these days. Perhaps not one at every
table, but one out of every two games or so.
> so when you're playing a combat deck where you can easily remove
> all that blood and send the vampire to torpor, but it'd take you
> two or three turns to bleed through the 6-9 pool.
Generally, when I see them, they're either my prey, or my
grandpredator. I'm not sure why it works out that way, it just is.
If the former, I tend to kill them. Quickly. You know the M.O., I'm
sure. If the latter, it's not that big a deal, as when I eventually
get around to them, they've finally ousted my predator, we're the last
two on the table, and I (hopefully) have enough combat cards to still
take care of them. That being said, at a Minneapolis tournament in
May, I intentionally sat behind the Minion Tap deck (HI MARK!) because
I knew I couldn't let it get rolling.
> about six decks. And at the same time I've been using more of
> my Suddens than ever before. Yes, they are reactive. No, that's
> not a good enough reason not to use them. It's not like reacting
Hehehe. I actually did put some in a deck last night, but that deck
isn't going to be ready for this weekend. I'll have to do some
trading for it. (HI KEVIN! TRADING!) :)
> can make the game for you. (In non-combat decks, being able to
> Sudden a Haven Uncovered can also be a winning play. Or from the
> other side, being able to Sudden a Secure Haven...)
True, all very true. Still, I find that even in my variant of the
"industry standard" I take up most of my available master space with
Blood Dolls, a couple skill cards, a Barrens, a Dreams, and maybe one
or two clan-specific cards.
> ...suddenly, your vampire does not reach golconda after all...
I was wondering when the taglines were going to come back. I usually
read your posts, thinking, "oh boy! I get flavor text with the post!"
Xian, working on perfecting that Kung Fu Cyborgs deck...oh wait,
different game...
mgreen02
> just HAD to say a few words about a really well organised event.
>
<snip>
>
> As far as things went, it was a very good day. A lot of experienced
> players came along under the provioso Matt Green set - "not to bring
> anything too nasty to smash in the newbies!" - all overseen by the
> expert guidance of James Coupe. To a man, I think this caveat was
> followed! Only a shame that Matt himself couldn't make it - his missus
> Alice was having contractions and about to give birth (which is why I
> was amazed that he still drove 1 1/2 hours up to Milton Keynes to say
> hello with her in toe!) so I hope by now they have a beautiful baby
> daughter - any comments or news gladly accepted!
>
Well, Alice lives in Milton Keynes and therefore so do i most days
when the weevils don't keep me at college at odd hours, so we just
popped down the road. I don't make a habit of dragging pregnant women
around the country with me just to sate my V:TES craving. :)
I became a father on Sunday. Isabel and Alice are both fine, although
the labour lasted for over 40hours all told. *yawn*
<snip>
>
> Phil Mattingly played a votey camerilla deck using lots of Treadors.
> Interesting use of their celerity for Flashes to then Majesty - this
> saved his skin many times. I think he scored respectably, but not
> enough for the final (about 2.5).
>
Phil should post his tournamnet report up here- it's a good read. i
doubt we'll see this deck again, the Mattingly deck building engine
has churned out a number of potential replacements since then.
>
> Our Host Iain Wilson played a variant of the Theo Bell and Beast with
> fortitude deck (nasty), and scored some points along the way.
>
As an aside to James' comment lower down the thread, i really do rate
Theo as the best vampire from FN. He goes so well with Beast it's
scary. Dominate puts him well placed in Eurobrujah decks too. He gave
the Brujah a real shot in the arm- not that they were in any need
either.
<snip>
Thanks to Iain for running the tournament, even though i didn't play,
i hope we'll see more V:TES tournaments there in the future and some
of the MK players in Watford next month.
Thanks also to James for playing a 3player friendly game with Alice
and myself with my decks. Good fun.
cheers
mattgreen.
-ever had so little sleep that you started hallucinating?
legbiter
>
> I became a father on Sunday. Isabel and Alice are both fine, although
> the labour lasted for over 40hours all told. *yawn*
>
Phil Mattingly
> dave...@hotmail.com (hamdamcwa) wrote in message news:<9e10847c.01111...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > Interesting use of their celerity for Flashes to then Majesty - this
> > saved his skin many times. I think he scored respectably, but not
> > enough for the final (about 2.5).
> >
> Phil should post his tournamnet report up here- it's a good read. i
> doubt we'll see this deck again, the Mattingly deck building engine
> has churned out a number of potential replacements since then.
Oh, go on then... :)
Daring The Dawn: Milton Keynes Report
--------------------------------------
As requested, this is my report from Daring the Dawn: Milton Keynes.
This was only my 5th sanctioned tournament but it went pretty well.
Plus I didn't take a deck with Fast Reactions in it, a marked
improvement over tournament number one.
The short version
------------------
I played a straightforward Camarilla political deck, all Toreador
except for Rake. It won three VPs (1/1.5/0.5) and was only ousted
once. Not enough for the final then but had I been a bit more
experienced at working the table I think that would have been
different.
The long version
-----------------
The Deck
--------
I'd given a fair bit of thought to the deck. One of the main
influences on it was Matt Green's plea to treat the locals reasonably.
Apparently they had neither a great deal of tournament experience nor
suitcases full of cards. Thrashing them with Hostile Takeover was
likely to be a hollow victory. With that in mind, I basically decided
to build a Ventrue deck with no Ventrue in it and go light on the
Traditions.
Deck Name: We Wish We Were The Ventrue
Created by: Phil
Description: Toreador vote deck. Uses Pre for voting and Cel for
combat defense/stealth. Played at Milton Keynes, November 2001.
Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 15, Max: 31, Avg: 5.67]
3 Anson (aus CEL dom PRE, Toreador, 8,
Prince)
1 Demetrious Slater (aus cel pre, Toreador, 4)
1 Dorian Strack (AUS cel, Toreador, 4)
1 Felicia Mostrom (AUS CEL pre, Toreador, 5)
1 Mariana Gilbert (cel PRE, Toreador, 4)
2 Rake (aus cel pot PRE, Brujah, 6, Prince)
1 Ramiel DuPre (aus cel dom PRE, Toreador, 5)
1 Tatiana Romanov (AUS cel pre, Toreador, 7, Prince)
1 Zöe (AUS cel obf, Malkavian, 3)
Library: (80 cards)
Master (16 cards)
1 Art Museum
1 Barrens, The
2 Blood Doll
1 Creepshow Casino
2 Elysium: The Arboretum
1 KRCG News Radio
1 Minion Tap
1 Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The
1 Secure Haven
2 Society Hunting Ground
3 Sudden Reversal
Minion (64 cards)
2 Alacrity
1 Awe
5 Bewitching Oration
2 Bribes
1 Charming Lobby
5 Conservative Agitation
4 Deer Rifle
1 Disputed Territory
2 Domain Challenge
9 Flash
3 Forced Awakening
5 Kine Resources Contested
5 Majesty
1 Parity Shift
1 Praxis Seizure: Paris
4 Telepathic Counter
4 Telepathic Misdirection
1 Toreador Justicar
3 Voter Captivation
5 Wake with Evening's Freshness
The basic theory is very simple. Get vote lock, crush your prey with
political actions and keep the bleeders and rushers off your back.
Can you tell I don't like rush decks? A Secure Haven, two Elysiums,
four Deer Rifles, nine Flashes and give Majesties were enough for a
field I expected to be heavy with combat. I was particularly concerned
about decks featuring Beast or Theo, testing against a deck that
regularly Decapitates Anson before he's taken an action will make you
edgy about rush.
Almost everyone in the crypt was chosen a PRE/cel template. Flash gets
you away from Immortal Grapple, if they strike hands, no worries, if
they skim the Sewer Lid, use a Majesty. The Deer Rifle is basically a
permanent double Flash, the damage is just a bonus. One guy with a
Rifle is usually enough, I would Wake him and block any rushes while
letting the other minions get on with the job. The remaining vampires
(Zoe, Dorian) were there for their superior Auspex to handle bleeding.
Zoe remains one of my favourite vampires, she seems to turn up in a
lot of my decks.
Everyone in the crypt had to be Camarilla too to work with the
Elysium. Although it doesn't handle Beast, it does handle Wynn and
Theo Bell and I was never sorry to see it on the day.
As a side note, I would welcome any criticism of the deck as I'm sure
it could be improved.
Round By Round
--------------
Table 1
----------
Me -> some chap playing Lasombra stealth-bleed, sorry I can't remember
your name -> Pierre Rebstock (potence weenies) -> Alan (I think,
sorry) (political Lasombra) -> Iain Wilson, Prince of Milton Keynes
(Beast/Theo)
Not a bad start to the day. My crypt consistently delivered Anson in
the opening draw which was a Very Good Thing. However, the first
vampire my predator turned over was Beast. I could hardly believe it
but figured that at least I had some practice against rush. I think my
first vampire was Anson, my prey is busy making little Lasombra. His
prey is Pierre Rebstock who is making little Potence vampires. So my
prey starts stealth-bleeding Pierre while I run away from Beast as
fast as I can go.
Voting doesn't look to be a problem at this table although I'm keeping
an eye on the Lasombra. I let my prey get out all his weenies, he has
to stretch a bit because Pierre has caught one and slapped him with a
Disarm. So far I've manuevered away from Beast but I need a Deer Rifle
to turn up pretty soon. Luckily one does and no-one blocks it. Feeling
a bit more secure I start dropping the Conservative Agitations. It's
important to pick the correct Vote Bitch at this point, that luckless
player who has to carry the extra one from Conservative Agitation.
There's a discussion about Vote Bitches a bit further down, for now I
choose my predator most of the time.
My prey is looking soggier and soggier and no-one seems to be able to
intercept my votes. The other Lasombra has his hands full dealing with
Pierre and luckily Beast can't catch up with me. In fairness, I think
Ian's hand had jammed, he didn't seem very happy with it. My prey
collapses, I spend the extra pool on Rake. Alan is trying hard to keep
Antonio Delgado on the table so I need to be sure I can pass votes.
Beast catches up to Rake and beats him senseless, Theo Bell makes his
grand entrance. Pierre encourages Iain to diablerise Rake with Beast,
arguing that Beast (on two blood) isn't much use anymore. Incredibly,
Iain buys this despite the fact that I have a Prince and his predator
has an Archbishop. He seems unworried when the bloodhunt burns Beast.
Said Archbishop disappears under a pile of two caps, Alan is now just
a wall and I'm trying hard to cycle into more votes. Sadly I can't get
Pierre before he ousts Alan and gains six pool. Theo can't get me
because of the Elysium, he makes a brave effort to resist Duck, Koko
and the rest but to no avail. By now I have a Secure Haven on Anson so
Pierre can't touch me but Anson can only hold back one of his five
minions each turn. I'm praying for Domain Challenge but I don't get it
before Pierre overruns me.
What I Learnt From Table 1
--------------------------
Lesson #1: Choose your vote bitch carefully. Your choices are:
Grand-prey: Good because you have to oust him next. Bad if he can hit
you cross table, I left Pierre alone because I didn't fancy getting
rushed by two decks.
Grand-predator: Good because unless he can cross-table there's nothing
he can do to you. Bad if he has votes you need, as Alan did.
Predator: Good because the softer he is, the less likely he is to be
pressuring you. Bad if he collapses and gives your grand-predator a
point.
Basically, with only 12-13 damaging votes in the deck you have to be
pretty careful where you apportion stuff if you want to have enough
steam to sweep.
Table 2
-------
Me -> Anthony (Malkavian Antitribu stealth-bleed) -> Adam Payne (Free
Snakes Rant) -> Tony (Gangrel Royalty) -> Matt (Lasombra
stealth-bleed)
It all kicks off and now I'm getting the stealth-bleed treatment.
Luckily, my Telepathic Counters are jolly good against lots of little
weenie bleeders. I start making a dent in Anthony but at one point,
Anson gets blocked by Artemis, I think. I have a choice now. Do I
waste a Majesty in this combat when I only have five in the deck and
Tony just round the corner, or do I tough it out and do hand damage?
I say 'strike hands'. Anthony fingers his cards. My heart sinks. He
says 'strike coma!'. There's a collective flinch from the rest of the
table. 'That's some cold shit man' intones Tony solemnly. My predator
fingers Mitchell the Headhunter eagerly. I grit my teeth and quickly
plead with Tony for a rescue. Luckily he sees the sense in not letting
Anson get diablerised and hauls me out. Close call. Hmm, must not
allow newsgroup threads to unduly influence play style in future. ;)
The game rolls on. The !Malks are biting into Adam, I'm slapping them
with every vote I draw and the Lasombra are desperately trying to
bleed me out before Angus eats them all. Sadly, I end up having to
call a Domain Challenge that does 2 to my prey and a healthy 5 to my
predator. That pretty much finishes his offence as he turtles and
tries to keep the Gangrel off him with only six pool left. I finally
oust the !Malks, the Lasombra crumble and we're down to a three-way
between myself, Adam and Tony.
By this point, I have Anson, Rake and Felicia Mostrom, Toreador
Justicar in play. Adam has Aziz and Kephamos. Tony has Wynn, Angus,
Ricky Van Demsi and Chandler Hungerford. I'm on about 10 pool, Adam on
about six, Tony has bloated to maybe twenty or more.
It's looking good for Tony but unfortunately, Anson has a Secure Haven
and I have Elysium: The Arboretum. No rushes for him then. :)
Basically the game grinds slowly on with no-one able to make much of
an impact. Adam has got Temptation on Felicia, she's low on blood from
a Haunting earlier in the game and he can take her for most of his
turns which lets him pass most of the votes he wants. He manages to
get a Free States Rant to knock the Gangrel down a bit and then steals
Wynn and rushes Angus with him. Both of them end up in torpor. Harsh.
I'm almost out of cards. Tony diablerises his own Wynn with Chandler,
he has another one almost ready to go with Ecoterrorists. Despite
Adam's protests, I elect not to burn Chandler in the blood hunt
figuring that Adam is on low pool and I have no desire to destablise
things in his favour. Plus I reckon I handle Tony pretty much since he
can't rush me.
In the end though my only remaining vote is a Parity Shift and Adam
finally manages to Minion Tap out of range. The game runs to time and
we all get half a victory point. Good fun game. :)
Lesson #2: Deals are good.
Martin was telling me afterward that I could probably have stitched
the game up by making a deal with Adam. Basically, I agree to Parity
Shift Tony and then do nothing to Adam. This leaves him the space to
go all out on Tony and probably oust him. He then rolls over for me.
Result - 1 VP for Adam instead of 0.5, 2 VP for me instead of 0.5.
Would he have taken that deal? I don't know, but it would probably
have been worth a try. Mind you, I don't even know if it would have
been legal.
Table 3
-------
Me -> Wes (Tremere/!Tremere intercept/combat) -> Ginger Steve
(Brujah/!Brujah rush) -> Andy (Toreador) -> Steve (Tzimisce wall)
Woohoo. Intercept decks as predator and prey and me with all my
actions at +1 stealth. :-/
I try to stitch up a deal with my cross-table ally about contesting
but everyone else loudly protests. In retrospect, I should have got
James to confirm the legality of a 'no contesting' arrangement but as
it was I decided to go with it. My plan here was basically to make as
many small minions as possible and try and overwhelm the Tremere's
intercept. To be honest, I expected to just die like a bitch to the
Tzimisce with him picking off my minions as they acted and then
bleeding me dry when they were all in torpor.
So we kick off and the stage is soon set. I have Zoe and Mariana
Gilbert. My prey has Hannigan, Ignatius and Merill Molitor. His prey
has three or four small Brujah, his prey has Adrianne and Anson, his
prey/my predator has Corine and Dragos.
I figure that I can't just sit there so I decide to push the boat out
with a vote. Appealing to my predator I say, 'Look, let me pass this
alright, I'm not going to hit you with it.' Slightly to my surprise,
he agrees saying 'If it doesn't hurt me, I don't block it'. (In
retrospect, I think this was a good play. He can let me soften his
grand-prey and put the brakes on by blocking every action that ousts).
So the Conservative Agitations kick in and my prey doesn't like it one
bit. I'm also doing my best to rob his Powerbase Chicago every turn.
He Turtles (see below) and starts trying to block every vote I go for.
Luckily, I have Creepshow Casino. :) Plus since I never, ever go to a
second round with him thanks to Flash his hand is starting to jam with
Walk of Flame etc. Finally it gets to the point where I'm going to
oust him if I get a vote off. I push it up to 3 stealth with Creepshow
and Alacrity. Now my predator is waving his Rumor Mill. Wes doesn't
need it and casually whips out three Auspex cards to block the vote.
Bugger. Marianna Gilbert gets torporised.
Meantime, my Toreador playing chum across the table is having no end
of fun. Half his vampires have been torporised by his predator, the
other half are being thrown into the jaws of the Tzimisce. Steve, the
Tzimisce player, has transferred down to four pool to get Lambach out,
with no Princes I've had to pass all my votes with Bewitching Oration.
The Toreador are getting their asses kicked across the table, I don't
think the Andy has played a Majesty yet. He's trying to cycle to one
though, mostly by playing Vulnerability on Marianna Gilbert :-(
Unbelieveably though, Steve is tapped out and caught without a Wake.
In comes Anson, Aire of Elation and goodbye Tzimisce. All of a sudden,
the giant wall of Tzimisce which I fully expected to sweep the table,
has collapsed into nothing.
Well, this is fine with me. I'm happy to Telepathically Misdirect all
those big bleeds and so we play on, everyone on less than six pool and
the game getting very edgy. In the end, it times out before we can get
a resolution. I check my prey's hand and my upcoming cards based on
what I could cycle. Two Con-Ags lay in my next five cards, I reckon
with three minions I had at least a fighting chance of getting around
the blockers and landing one of those votes for the oust had I got
another turn.
Lesson #3: How To Crack A Turtle
There's a definite point in each game where the setup has ended and
the fighting begins. The first few turns, everyone is getting out
vampires, equipping things and otherwise messing around. Often your
prey will be quite confident at this point and start going forward.
The problem is that as soon as you do something he doesn't like, he
may well turtle. Basically, my prey must have gone:
'Go forward, go forward, arrgh he's dropped a Conservative Agitation
on me, I've lost four pool. Got no way to vote that down, must stop
going forward, must stay back and block all votes.'
That's the turtle, withdrawn into his shell. I guess it occurs because
some players are more risk averse than others. They would rather play
to not lose to their predator than play to beat their prey and use the
six pool to soak up the damage. So you have to pick your moment to
start the serious damage. The longer you wait, the more your prey goes
forward and the more he uses his pool up making it easier to oust him.
However, you also need to play cards to keep things flowing. In an
ideal world, you'd let the guy transfer himself down to 12 pool and
then call 3 Con Ags in one round and oust him. As it was, I think I
may have prodded my guy into turtling too early.
Lesson #4: Pool Gain Ruins Your Day
Powerbase Chicago was a pain in the arse. Sure it was only one pool
every other turn and sure, two turns in a row I robbed it off him. But
that was an action I didn't spend voting and with a limited number of
votes in the deck and a fair amount of pool to get through, I had to
stop him gaining where I could. Likewise, blood dolls are a pain for a
deck like mine.
So that was that. I didn't watch the final although I probably would
have learnt a lot from it. I was too busy trading. ;)
Overall, thoroughly enjoyed it, had lovely games and lots of fun.
Everyone kept asking me if I was playing 'one of Matt's decks' and I
was pleased to at least be able to take responsibility for playing
Toreador. ;)
General Deck Review
--------------------
I really like this deck and enjoyed playing it enormously. I also
learnt a lot from it...
Lesson #5: Everything you can do, the Ventrue can do better
And that was basically the reason I played it, because I wanted to
play votes and thought the Ventrue were a bit harsh. The Ventrue have
got just as much Presence as the Toreador. They have a cheaper and
better selection of Princes. Fortitude is better than Celerity for
combat defense. Ventrue Headquarters is better than Elysium: The
Palace of Versailles. Hostile Takeover is better than Aching Beauty.
Queen Anne and Arika can stealth better than Creepshow Casino,
although maybe Klaus Van Der Veken / Francois Villon can match them.
Lesson #6: 'I'll say this for you Phil, you've got staying power'
That was Martin's comment as my game with Adam and Tony rolled to a
close. Sure enough, the deck had a lot of staying power. It did
really, really well against rush decks I felt. I had few minions in
torpor and only one diablerised. Most of the time I was able to escape
combat and still play my deck okay. The Telepathic Counters and
Misdirections were enough to handle most bleeds I faced. However, I
feel that probably I didn't have enough of an offense. Even if I could
pass every vote I played every time, I reckon it took an average of
six to oust one opponent. One well-placed Minon Tap could set me way
back, even Blood Doll / Hunting Ground was a problem. More firepower
may well be required, Kindred Restructure might have been sweet.
Lesson #7: Know what all your cards do exactly and precisely
Seems obvious but I thought, from reading it, that Charming Lobby and
the first vote were seperate actions. That probably would have helped
on one or two occasions. Doh.
Lesson #8: 'This game is 50% cards and 50% talking' - Pierre
Don't be afraid to agitate the table. Don't be afraid to be a selfish,
mean-spirited, calculating, manipulative bastard. Just because someone
helped you out previously, you only owe them enough not to upset them
off. Intimidate people, take advantage of their weakness. Do
everything you have to do to crush them. Don't just sit there quietly.
Not ever. Other Methusleahs are very useful resource. Trash talking is
a legitimate part of the game.
Lesson #9: Permanents are powerful.
If other people have permanent pool gain, you pretty much need
permanent damage sources. Perhaps some bloat and an Anarch Revolt or
Antediluvian Awakening or two would have helped me out. I think
probably the way to make the deck more able to sweep is to combine all
thse things (permanent sources, agitation, reseating). Big power,
small package. 70 cards that all hit really hard.
So that was it. Nine good lessons for me in How To Be Better At
Vampire. It only remains to do the credits:
Thankyous to:
Matt Green - For lending me some cards and giving me lots of others.
For all his help and advice while I rush round in small eager circles
building bad decks. For being such an all-round good egg and brick
etc.
Alice Coggins - For being a charming dining companion, giving me all
that good experience against Beast and putting me up on her sofa.
Martin, Adam, Tony et al. - For good games all day and beer in the pub
afterwards.
Pierre Rebstock - For keeping me company on the train back to London
and sharing my love of obscure card games bought in bulk for cheap
prices. I may start on my Imagica collection yet.
James Coupe - For dealing with all my fatuous questions throughout the
day.
Iain Wilson - For organising and doing a jolly good job.
Everyone at Milton Keynes - For being sporting opponents and making me
feel very welcome.
That's about it. Comments and suggestions very welcome.
Cheers,
Phil
Joshua Duffin
> > I think you and Peter don't see enough big-vampire decks with
> > Minion Tap. Suddening your prey's Tap is key. Perhaps even more
>
> Perhaps. I see a fair amount these days. Perhaps not one at every
> table, but one out of every two games or so.
Maybe I overstate my assertion. You don't have to Sudden your
prey's Minion Taps to win. It just makes it much easier. :-)
Around here, I think we do see at least one big-vamp deck with
Minion Taps per game, on average. Some games have a lot more
than that. Maybe we're just in a non-weenie phase at the moment.
> Generally, when I see them, they're either my prey, or my
> grandpredator. I'm not sure why it works out that way, it just is.
> If the former, I tend to kill them. Quickly. You know the M.O., I'm
> sure. If the latter, it's not that big a deal, as when I eventually
> get around to them, they've finally ousted my predator, we're the last
> two on the table, and I (hopefully) have enough combat cards to still
> take care of them. That being said, at a Minneapolis tournament in
> May, I intentionally sat behind the Minion Tap deck (HI MARK!) because
> I knew I couldn't let it get rolling.
Right... note that I'm not talking here strictly about Tap/5th
bloat decks, but simply that almost all big-vamp-using decks
also use Minion Tap to be able to afford those big vamps, and
if you're preying on them, being able to Sudden those Taps
severely weakens your prey's position.
> Hehehe. I actually did put some in a deck last night, but that deck
> isn't going to be ready for this weekend. I'll have to do some
> trading for it. (HI KEVIN! TRADING!) :)
Heh. Speaking of trading, I think I need some Protect Thine Owns...
possibly the most wrong card in the game right now, I think.
(ToGP is wrong, and strong, but not quite as wrong as votes that
burn vampires.)
> True, all very true. Still, I find that even in my variant of the
> "industry standard" I take up most of my available master space with
> Blood Dolls, a couple skill cards, a Barrens, a Dreams, and maybe one
> or two clan-specific cards.
Yeah, that happens to me too in my rush decks - they just don't
have enough master space to fit in much in the way of Suddens.
Plus you can sometimes preemptively remove all the blood from
the vampire in question before it gets another turn to be Tapped.
My arguments in favor of Suddens probably do apply more to decks
that aren't as master-light and don't have any other way to make
the Tap useless.
> > ...suddenly, your vampire does not reach golconda after all...
>
> I was wondering when the taglines were going to come back. I usually
> read your posts, thinking, "oh boy! I get flavor text with the post!"
Yeah, I didn't have anything clever to tag with for a while, so
I was just skipping it. I'll try to be more entertaining. :-)
Josh
'i guess you could call it superpowers
but nobody's going to save the day
with what i've got'
Iain Wilson
> the labour lasted for over 40hours all told. *yawn*
Congratualtions. I guess that invalidates the slanderous remarks from
certain individuals that went something like "Money on he calls the
kid Arika..."
;)