How much intercept in a wall deck?
YY
I've been fiddling with ARDB, trying to put together a Tzimisce wall,
but even after having run the draw simulator a few times, I am unsure
of the amount of intercept that should go into the deck.
I have about 25% intercepts at this point (with about 50% combat), and
the rest being permanent bleed modifiers (or funky stuff that caught
my eye) and masters.
Given that half of my intercepts are dual use (Telepathic
Misdirection, Eyes of Argus, Read the Winds), should I even be
considering more intercept? Or is 25% already too much?
What do you think?
Cheers,
YY
RoddPrime
To me the key thing is making sure that you have a good mix of
intercept cards. For instance when I am building a stealth bleed deck
I put several stealth cards in the deck (Domain, Lost in Crowds,
Spying Missions, Veil, Cloak, etc.). I find I can reach a higher
stealth or intercept number that way. For intercept Eyes of Argus,
Telepathic Misdirection, Eagle Sight, Spirit's Touch, Enhanced Senses
are some good examples. When it comes to ratio I think 25% is about
right for intercept. You will want some additional wake cards (could
use Read the Winds for some as you suggested if you think blood is not
an issue), roughly 9-10 in a 90 card deck.
librarian
What's your crypt going to be like? If you are using Anton, maybe you
don't need as many intercept cards. Have you thought about using Ani
intercept - esp permacept in the form of birds?
This question is also very metagame dependent of course. If you are in
a high combat environment, I think you are ok. If you are in a high
stealth environment, up the intercept.
best -
chris
Kevin M.
I think it depends on how much you're needing to protect.
1. Smiling Jack
2. Pool-gain devices (PBMontreal, PBChicago, Arcane Library, etc.)
3. Other (D)able cards (PBLuanda, Atonement, etc.)
4. Other cards you deem worth saving (location destruction, Ally steal,
etc.)
5. Your pool
6. Your grand-prey's pool
If you are a dedicated wall deck intending to oust primarily with
Smiling Jack and the occasional bleed, I'd start with 33% and
go up from there, based on 1-6, above. About 33% wakes, too,
but that's a more static number.
Show us the deck, if you like, so we can help you more. :)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
The Lasombra
>You will want some additional wake cards (could
>use Read the Winds for some as you suggested if you think blood is not
>an issue), roughly 9-10 in a 90 card deck.
In my experience, the number of wakes should not have anything to do
with the number of cards in the deck. Instead, it should have to do
with the size of your minions in play. If you will have seven weenie
auspex minions, you need very few wakes. If you will have three 8-10
cap minions, you need quite a few more.
See also:
http://www.thelasombra.com/headfirst.htm
Concept to build 4, 6, 9
Keep in mind 2, 3, 6, 7
Carpe noctem.
The Lasombra
Your best source of V:TES information.
Now also selling boxes and individual cards.
The Lasombra
>Hi all,
Hello.
>I've been fiddling with ARDB, trying to put together a Tzimisce wall,
>but even after having run the draw simulator a few times, I am unsure
>of the amount of intercept that should go into the deck.
Depends a lot on your local metagame.
>I have about 25% intercepts at this point (with about 50% combat), and
>the rest being permanent bleed modifiers (or funky stuff that caught
>my eye) and masters.
If most of your intercept doubles as untap, that might be about right.
(Eyes of Argus, Sense the Savage Way, Cats' Guidance)
>Given that half of my intercepts are dual use (Telepathic
>Misdirection, Eyes of Argus, Read the Winds), should I even be
>considering more intercept? Or is 25% already too much?
Depends a lot on your local metagame. Are you seeing a lot of 0
stealth actions? Or are you seeing Kindred Spirits Stealth Bleed?
>What do you think?
I think permanent intercept and intercept that doubles as untaps are
your best bet.
For strategy, see also:
http://www.thelasombra.com/walldecks.htm
For decks, see also:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/clandecks.htm
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/clan-twd.htm#Tzimisce
Juggernaut1981
> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:59:50 -0700 (PDT), YY wrote:
> >Hi all,
>
> Hello.
>
> >I've been fiddling with ARDB, trying to put together a Tzimisce wall,
> >but even after having run the draw simulator a few times, I am unsure
> >of the amount of intercept that should go into the deck.
>
> Depends a lot on your local metagame.
>
> >I have about 25% intercepts at this point (with about 50% combat), and
> >the rest being permanent bleed modifiers (or funky stuff that caught
> >my eye) and masters.
>
> If most of your intercept doubles as untap, that might be about right.
> (Eyes of Argus, Sense the Savage Way, Cats' Guidance)
>
> >Given that half of my intercepts are dual use (Telepathic
> >Misdirection, Eyes of Argus, Read the Winds), should I even be
> >considering more intercept? Or is 25% already too much?
>
> Depends a lot on your local metagame. Are you seeing a lot of 0
> stealth actions? Or are you seeing Kindred Spirits Stealth Bleed?
>
> >What do you think?
>
> I think permanent intercept and intercept that doubles as untaps are
> your best bet.
>
> For strategy, see also:http://www.thelasombra.com/walldecks.htm
>
>
> Carpe noctem.
>
> The Lasombra
>
> http://www.TheLasombra.com
>
> Your best source of V:TES information.
> Now also selling boxes and individual cards.
If you're playing Tzimisce, I honestly think you could be MAD not to
have some Corpse Balloons in the mix. They provide maneuvers, which
saves you other cards you'd cycle often, and intercept.
Good permacept + moderate transient intercept provides a good defence.
Mathieu Rivero
Convergence, Raven spy) works like a charm. However, you need a
seriously good amount of wakes. 33% of reaction cards just seems
alright to me, depending on your deck (what you have to protect/static
intercept), your metagame (don"t forget delaying tactics and bounces,
which are just as necessary as in any other deck). Cards that have a
double use (cat's guidance, eyes of argus) are a must play as they can
threaten your opponents with a heterogenous defence. The more flexible
your deck is, the more adaptable you are, and as that's the way you
can dominate the table.
Dr.Mafrune
It could be easier to assist you, if you would post the deck.
Anyway... Although it´s right that depends on local metagame, in my
personal oppinion it´s not very much if you rely only on transient
intercept. If you add revenants and other permanents it could be ok.
Independent of the crypt you choose I would never include less than 12
wakes in 80 cards deck ( this is my personal card limit for this kind
of decks).
An example of intercept module in a heavy combat tzimice deck. I
suppose you rely on a older crypt.
In 80 cards
3 read the winds
5 eyes of argus
3 sense the savage way
3 on the qui vive
2 my enemy´s enemy
4 telepathic misdirection
2 ballon corpse
3 revenant
1 bowl of convergence
This is only one possibility... there are infinite others.
Dr.Mafrune
>
> 2 ballon corpse
> 3 revenant
> 1 bowl of convergence
>
> This is only one possibility... there are infinite others.
I forgot to include cat´s guidance.... 1 for a sense the savage way, 1
for a on the qui vive.
3 read the winds
5 eyes of argus
2 sense the savage way
2 on the qui vive
2 cat´s guidance
Matthew T. Morgan
> I have about 25% intercepts at this point (with about 50% combat), and
> the rest being permanent bleed modifiers (or funky stuff that caught
> my eye) and masters.
The advice given about intercept seems okay, but half of your deck is
combat? Unless you're in a really heavy combat environment where you're
going to get rushed a lot, block bleeds at 0 stealth a lot and have your
bleeds of 1 blocked, that won't work out very well for you. With 50%
combat, you can easily draw into an all-red hand. What will you do when
your predator is a stealth bleed deck and your prey never blocks a bleed
of 1? You'll die. That's what you'll do.
Also Tzimisce combat is fairly efficient. You shouldn't need more than a
card or two per combat. Playing 35-45 combat cards is like saying you're
going to have ~20 fights per game and need to play cards in all of them.
Not likely.
Matt Morgan
YY
Deck Name : Old School Tzimisce Wall
Author : YY
Description :
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 8 average: 6.41667
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Little Tailor of P 8 ANI AUS VIC dem Tzimisce:
2
2x Caliban 6 ANI AUS VIC Tzimisce:
2
2x Corine Marcon 6 AUS VIC ani Tzimisce:
2
2x Lolita Houston 4 VIC aus Tzimisce:
2
1x Meshenka 8 ANI AUS VIC priscus Tzimisce:
2
1x Sascha Vykos, The 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom priscus Tzimisce:
2
1x Sascha Vykos, The Adv 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom archbishop Tzimisce:
2
1x Rose, The 5 PRE VIC aus Tzimisce:
3
Library [79 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [1]
1x Army of Rats
Action Modifier [4]
4x Changeling
Combat [35]
3x Breath of the Dragon
4x Carrion Crows
8x Chiropteran Marauder
4x Horrid Form
8x Inner Essence
8x Skin Trap
Equipment [4]
1x Bowl of Convergence
1x Femur of Toomler
2x Living Manse
Master [12]
6x Ashur Tablets
1x Path of Metamorphosis, The
1x Rack, The
4x Vessel
Reaction [17]
3x Enhanced Senses
4x Eyes of Argus
3x Precognition
4x Read the Winds
3x Telepathic Misdirection
Retainer [6]
2x Corpse Balloon
1x Owl Companion
3x Revenant
Thanks for all the comments so far, guys. :)
Here's the deck, as it currently is. Took me a while to get to a
computer with both Internet access and ARDB.
Sigh... Sometimes I hate my workplace.
YY
The Lasombra
>Deck Name : Old School Tzimisce Wall
>Author : YY
>Description :
Here are a few questions that you might answer for yourself to help
improve the deck. -
http://thepathofblood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=647
How do you intend to oust?
How do you intend to keep from being ousted?
What do you want your ready region to look like (ie, how many guys are
you planning on getting out)?
What do you want your average turn to look like?
>Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 8 average: 6.41667
>------------------------------------------------------------
>2x Little Tailor of P 8 ANI AUS VIC dem Tzimisce:2
>2x Caliban 6 ANI AUS VIC Tzimisce:2
>2x Corine Marcon 6 AUS VIC ani Tzimisce:2
>2x Lolita Houston 4 VIC aus Tzimisce:2
>1x Meshenka 8 ANI AUS VIC priscus Tzimisce:2
>1x Sascha Vykos, The 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom priscus Tzimisce:2
>1x Sascha Vykos, The Adv 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom archbishop Tzimisce:2
>1x Rose, The 5 PRE VIC aus Tzimisce:3
>Library [79 cards]
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Action [1]
> 1x Army of Rats
Little Tailor's bleed for 2 + Army of Rats seems to be your offense.
I'm not sure why you don't feel that your prey will run the table in
front of you. Did you consider Eagle's Sight? Nose of the Hound?
Perpetual Care for some damage with your priscus votes?
>Action Modifier [4]
> 4x Changeling
Stealth or bleed, fine, not much help to your offense really.
>Combat [35]
> 3x Breath of the Dragon
> 4x Carrion Crows
> 8x Chiropteran Marauder
> 4x Horrid Form
> 8x Inner Essence
> 8x Skin Trap
I would swap the Skin Trap and Carrion Crows quantities. If you are
going to be in 8 combats, do some damage.... Did you consider some
Telepathic Tracking to get around Strike:Combat Ends? How about some
Canine Horde against .44 Magnums?
>Equipment [4]
> 1x Bowl of Convergence
> 1x Femur of Toomler
> 2x Living Manse
All fine.
>Master [12]
> 6x Ashur Tablets
> 1x Path of Metamorphosis, The
> 1x Rack, The
> 4x Vessel
Only 1 path? I'm fairly certain you'll get little benefit from it.
Did you perhaps consider Fame? Tension in the Ranks? Dragonbound?
How about a Rotschreck or two?
>Reaction [17]
> 3x Enhanced Senses
> 4x Eyes of Argus
> 3x Precognition
> 4x Read the Winds
> 3x Telepathic Misdirection
8 untap? When every minion other than Lolita takes 2 turns to come
into play? If you're playing this one-on-one, it can be a great deck.
I'm not seeing your plan to oust your prey working here, as you'll be
stuck with your large minions untapped most turns because you have no
untap.
>Retainer [6]
> 2x Corpse Balloon
> 1x Owl Companion
> 3x Revenant
I'd prefer Raven Spy's and Pack Alpha, myself. Its better to ensure
your permanents in a way that your opponents can't block with a simple
acquisition of 1 transient intercept.
Dr.Mafrune
> Deck Name : Old School Tzimisce Wall
> Author : YY
> Description :
>
> Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 8 average: 6.41667
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2x Little Tailor of P 8 ANI AUS VIC dem Tzimisce:
> 2
> 2x Caliban 6 ANI AUS VIC Tzimisce:
> 2
> 2x Corine Marcon 6 AUS VIC ani Tzimisce:
> 2
> 2x Lolita Houston 4 VIC aus Tzimisce:
> 2
> 1x Meshenka 8 ANI AUS VIC priscus Tzimisce:
> 2
> 1x Sascha Vykos, The 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom priscus Tzimisce:
> 2
> 1x Sascha Vykos, The Adv 8 AUS THA VIC ani dom archbishop Tzimisce:
> 2
> 1x Rose, The 5 PRE VIC aus Tzimisce:
> 3
I would like to see Lambach included. He is a true powerhouse on a
Tzimisce combat deck. For example:
2 Lambach
1 Little Taylor
2 Meshenka
2 Caliban
2 Corinne Marcon
1 Lolita Houston
1 Horatio
1 Devin Bisley
> Library [79 cards]------------I would put 80 cards to round up
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Action [1]
> 1x Army of Rats
Add 1 aranthebes, the inmortal
> Action Modifier [4]
> 4x Changeling
It´s a really good card, but you won´t need it that much.
(gain 4 slots)
> Combat [35]
> 3x Breath of the Dragon
> 4x Carrion Crows
> 8x Chiropteran Marauder
> 4x Horrid Form
> 8x Inner Essence
> 8x Skin Trap
With 26-28 combat cards is more than enough to bring fear upon the
other methuselahs. For example:
6x carrion crows
4x telepathic tracking
8x chiropteran marauder
2x terror frenzy
6x breath of the dragon
(gain 9 slots)
> Equipment [4]
> 1x Bowl of Convergence
> 1x Femur of Toomler
> 2x Living Manse
It´s ok.... you can change a Living manse for 1 ivory bow anyway.
> Master [12]
> 6x Ashur Tablets
> 1x Path of Metamorphosis, The
> 1x Rack, The
> 4x Vessel
The use of tablets in this deck is pointless. The cycling process in a
this kind of deck is not fast enough to proper use of this card. I
would rather choose a classic tzimisce master module like:
1x Carver`s Meat Packing and Storage
1x Direct Intervention
1x Pentex Subversion
1x Powerbase: Montreal
1x Rack, The
2x Rotschreck
2x Smiling Jack, The Anarch
4x Vessel
additionally I would add 1 dragonbound or 1 pb: barranquilla
(less 2 slots)
> Reaction [17]
> 3x Enhanced Senses
> 4x Eyes of Argus
> 3x Precognition
> 4x Read the Winds
> 3x Telepathic Misdirection
3x read the winds
5x eyes of argus
3x sense the savage way
2x on the qui vive
3x my enemy´s enemy
4x telepathic misdirection
2x eagle´s sight
2x cat´s guidance
( lose 7 slots)
> Retainer [6]
> 2x Corpse Balloon
> 1x Owl Companion
> 3x Revenant
4x revenant
2x corpse balloon
and additionally 2 asanbonsam ghoul/carlton to avoid unblockable
actions and get more blocked actions.
(less 2 slots)
> Thanks for all the comments so far, guys. :)
> Here's the deck, as it currently is. Took me a while to get to a
> computer with both Internet access and ARDB.
> Sigh... Sometimes I hate my workplace.
>
> YY
I expect this example can help you a little bit to make you own deck
design.
Juggernaut1981
YY,
Here is my Tzimisce counter-argument to your Tzimisce Deck.
This intends to survive and keep on surviving, it almost "back ousts"
without actually taking aggressive actions by grinding down your
predator slightly harder than your prey but without letting the
pressure up on your prey.
Changeling is a very good card in this deck. Additional stealth for
equips, and to up the pressure with a bleed or two. Ashur tablets
help this deck get ever greater longevity.
3x Szechenyi Jolan
2x Kazimir Savostin
1x Caliban
1x Terrence
2x Horatio
2x Corine Marcon
1x Christine Boscacci
2x Army of Rats
3x Bauble
4x Chiropteran Marauder
6x Inner Essence
8x Kraken's Kiss
4x Telepathic Tracking
6x Changeling
2x Helicopter
1x Creep Show
1x Curmudgeon
2x Guardian Angel
1x Powerbase: Barranquilla
1x Smiling Jack, the Anarch
1x Gambit Accepted
1x Path of Lilith, The
2x Library Hunting Ground
2x Heidelberg Castle, Germany
6x Ashur Tablets
12x Cats' Guidance
6x Eagle's Sight
6x Eyes of Argus
6x Corpse Balloon
4x Raven Spy
Raintar
even consider the Sense the Savage Way/Cat's Guidance combo. They are
UNTAPS and INTERCEPT, the two things you need most in a wall deck. So
between those two, and Eyes of Argus you have three cards that are
untaps as well as intercept. Not to mention it means you can replace
Precognition and On the Qui Vive with cards that are tons more useful.
Dr.Mafrune
Dear Juggernaut,
this is not a good argument for a deck.... It does not answer the
rightfully the questions it has to.
How does it win pool................your only sources are a
pb:barranquilla and gambit accepted, if you manage to get a victory
point and the tablets. The only reliable source of them is the
pb:barranquilla. What about the classic rack, pb: montreal and vessel/
blood doll every blocker has?
How does it oust your prey/s.....................apparently by
bleeding every turn, but with how many minions? With permanents
included I highly doubt that you can get out more than 2 at the
beginning and 3 at last. You also have a smiling jack, but with near
90 cards it can show up or not at a given point.... the other point is
with your lack on pool gain the smiling will hurt you very much.
The modules of the deck are not coherent enough.
For a combat module with kraken´s kiss is better to use a combination
of crypt (zara slatikov, velya,kazimir)+ path of metamorphosis+ horrid
form.
Use of 6 ashur tablets on a blocker with near 90 cards is worth-for-
nothing. You have better masters to fill this slots.
On your reaction module you can put more variability. Read the winds,
sense the savage way, telepathic....
I strongly recommend that you make some changes in your deck.
YY
> What I don't understand is how you can make a Tziminsce deck and not
> even consider the Sense the Savage Way/Cat's Guidance combo. They are
> UNTAPS and INTERCEPT, the two things you need most in a wall deck. So
> between those two, and Eyes of Argus you have three cards that are
> untaps as well as intercept. Not to mention it means you can replace
I would like to point out that only 5 of my vamps can play Sense the
Savage Way, of which only 3 can use it to untap, of which 2 are repeat
copies of the same vamp.
This means that I only have effectively 2 vamps who can untap with
Sense the Savage Way.
Likewise, only 5 of my vamps can use the intercept on Cat's Guidance
(3 of my vamps cannot even use the card), of which there are 2 sets of
repeat copies.
This means that only 3 vamps have the ability to get intercept with
Cat's Guidance.
The other 4 (actually 2, since 1 is a repeat and 1 is an advanced
version) vamps would need to be able to block successfully to play
Cat's Guidance, and if that's all the cat's gonna do for me, any
random untap would seem more effective.
> Precognition and On the Qui Vive with cards that are tons more useful.
I dun have On the Qui Vive in the deck list, so that's moot.
Precognition is there because my meta is a quite combat heavy, and the
1 point of damage prevention could very well be enough to save my
blocker's ass.
I've taken the rest of the advice into consideration, but would need
to wait till I've ran the deck a few times before I can say how much
of that was relevant.
A big thank you to all.
:)
Cheers
YY
Juggernaut1981
Dr
Ousting> Most preys will spend pool through blood dolls, vessels and
gaining more minions. You drain their blood by blocking actions and
only injuring, not crippling, their forward offence. Let them get
close to ousting themselves.
Not Being Ousted> How many other decks can oust around 4+ permanent
intercept on two minions??? I don't plan to lose pool. This deck
cycles fast enought that I get the ashur tablets off in almost every
game I have played. And at that point, I put more untaps into my
library. PB: Baran = 1 pool per turn AND something to bait my pred
into (D) actions, which then get blocked. Then later it gets put back
in again with Ashur Tablets. Smiling Jack comes out when Smiling Jack
Comes Out... Play the deck and play it with the mindset that you are
going to Survive to the End, rather than "Oust At Speed" and it will
work perfectly every time.
Matthew T. Morgan
> Ousting> Most preys will spend pool through blood dolls, vessels and
> gaining more minions. You drain their blood by blocking actions and
> only injuring, not crippling, their forward offence. Let them get
> close to ousting themselves.
>
> Not Being Ousted> How many other decks can oust around 4+ permanent
> intercept on two minions??? I don't plan to lose pool. This deck
> cycles fast enought that I get the ashur tablets off in almost every
> game I have played. And at that point, I put more untaps into my
> library. PB: Baran = 1 pool per turn AND something to bait my pred
> into (D) actions, which then get blocked. Then later it gets put back
> in again with Ashur Tablets. Smiling Jack comes out when Smiling Jack
> Comes Out... Play the deck and play it with the mindset that you are
> going to Survive to the End, rather than "Oust At Speed" and it will
> work perfectly every time.
You're right. This is the best deck EVAR! It was silly of people to
think you posted it here wanting feedback. It's obviously perfect!
XZealot
> Not Being Ousted> How many other decks can oust around 4+ permanent
> intercept on two minions???
Malk 94 with Elder Impersonations + Seductions.
Please let me know if you have any other questions that you would like
answers.
I'll be here all week.
Try the lobster!
Blooded Sand
Ur Shulgi powerbleed. 5 minions with 9999999999 permacept each don't
tend to block him.
Juggernaut1981
So to summarise your post and the next post>>> CHEESE BLEED
Juggernaut1981
Thankyou captain sarcasm. *Pins the medal of assery to your chest*
For bravery in the face of fearless international internet postings.
Matthew T. Morgan
Later this week I'm crossing the Atlantic in person to play vtes in person
and say obnoxious things to people in person. Hope to see you there.
Drain
Will there be medals to be had? :o
Drain
XZealot
Yes, it's one of the most popular archtypes in the entire game!
Matthew T. Morgan
>> Later this week I'm crossing the Atlantic in person to play vtes in person
>> and say obnoxious things to people in person. �Hope to see you there.
>
> Will there be medals to be had? :o
At the EC? I think so. Also, I'm always good for a pick-up game and a
round of drinks!