Rotschreck questions...
William Pyle
so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where...
anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted
by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the
appropriate range...
Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike?
strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a
chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone
would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it.
it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/
undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand,
they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could
easily prevent it all....
anyway, some help you be appreciated.
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
Joe C.
>Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike?
>strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a
>chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone
>would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it.
It can be used when the minion attempts to inflict agg damage that would
occur at current range.
So even if the acting minion has the ability to prevent the damage it was
still attempted and would be applicable.
It's pretty sweat when the acting minion attempts to strike: combat ends.
>it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I
torn-signpost/FOD/
>undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand,
>they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could
>easily prevent it all....
---------------------------
You can beg for someone to play a Sudden Reversal, outside of that your
vampire is heading to torpor.
lisa
DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish
decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as
an example).
So if the Gangrel played Wolf Claws to damage Brutus-the-Brujah, some
generous player could play this out-of-turn master to send the Gangrel to
torpor. This card is meant to make aggravated damage decks a more risky
option.
Our group play this card this way: a card is played by a vampire (Wolf
Claws, Sengir Dagger, Flamethrower, ...). This card can be also a weapon
DECLARED as a strike. The card must be able to deal aggravated damage. Then,
before any damage is resolved (no damage is actually dealt by any of the
minions in that combat) a player can play this master out-of-turn (if it is
not his turn to play: its a out-of-turn) to send the vampire that would have
dealt aggravated damage to the opposing minion in torpor.
If the Gangrel play a Wolf Claws at the beginning of the battle (before the
choose strike phase), then I believe that he can be targeted from that
moment by the Röthshreck. In that situation, you could choose to wait after
the strikes are declared before playing the Röthschreck if you want to keep
the suspense.
Easy. :-)
William Pyle a écrit dans le message
<366de78b...@news.mindspring.com>...
>ok... this card just confuses me... probably because, IIRC, it used to be
banned,
>so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where...
>
>anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted
>by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the
>appropriate range...
>
>Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike?
>strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a
>chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone
>would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it.
>
>it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I
torn-signpost/FOD/
>undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand,
>they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could
>easily prevent it all....
>
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to
> DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish
> decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as
> an example).
No read the card again. It says when a minion attempts to use aggravated
damage against an opposing vampire, the vampire goes to torpor tapped.
The card is representative of the immortal fear of lethal damage.
It's not a bad card to be used as a defense if you're about to be burned.
Noal
--
"DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors."
-Ambrose Bierce.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Xian
"lisa" <bob...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
> Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to
> DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish
> decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as
> an example).
This is how the card was ruled to be played for a while. No longer. It was
recently ruled to work (appropriately) against the vampire on the receiving
end of the damage goes to torpor.
[snip example of play under old rulings]
> William Pyle a écrit dans le message
> <366de78b...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >ok... this card just confuses me... probably because, IIRC, it used to be
> banned,
> >so well took our copies and put them somewhere, and no one knows where...
> >
> >anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted
> >by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the
> >appropriate range...
Hmm...I think this is right...hadn't really thought about environmental vs.
strike. But I suppose there's really no point in playing Rotschreck on a
Dawn Op'd Weather Control, is there? (Though of course Carrion Crows & Blood
of Acid are different...)
> >Now, my questions... when does this happen? end of choose-strike?
> >strike-resolution? damage-resolution?? does the targetted vampire get a
> >chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it? if someone
> >would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it.
Before damage resolution. No chance to dodge it or prevent it.
> >it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I
> torn-signpost/FOD/
> >undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand,
> >they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could
> >easily prevent it all....
Well, it is kinda sucky, but I believe that Rotschreck is intended to
simulate not any physical attributes or anything, but the complete mental
*freak-out* of the vampire that gets hit with it. Even the bravest Ventrue
sometimes run in immortal terror from the light of the sun or the claws of a
Gangrel which *could* result in Final Death.
However, the only deck it's *really* useful in is an intercept-aggravated
damage deck. Maybe Gangrel with lots of Raven Spies or Malkavian
Intercept-Disguised Weapon deck stocked up with Flamethrowers & WP
Grenades...
Xian
"they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain
lion on crack" --greensea
LSJ
> anyway... you play this card (OOT, I know) on the minion who was targetted
> by aggravated damage- strike (well, non-environmental) effective at the
> appropriate range...
>
> strike-resolution? damage-resolution??
When the "attempt" is announced. Usually this is during the choose
strike phase.
> does the targetted vampire get a
> chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it?
No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all.
> if someone
> would explain the exact workings of this to me, I'd appreciate it.
You play Rotschreck and combat ends (no damage done).
The vampire on whom Rotschreck is played is then placed in Torpor.
> it just seems kinda silly, if I'm playing a pot/for deck and I torn-signpost/FOD/
> undead some dinky 6cap vampire for 7 and have a Skin of Steel in my hand,
> they can poke me with their wolf claws and rotschreck me, even tho I could
> easily prevent it all....
It's a matter of instinct overriding the knowledge that the damage
won't "really" hurt you.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html
mboh...@shout.net
"lisa" <bob...@globetrotter.net> wrote:
> Strange? I thought that Röthshreck affected the vampire that was about to
> DEAL aggravated damage? Our group included some of these cards to punish
> decks that played too much with aggravated damage cards (a Gangrel deck, as
> an example).
Rotschreck affects the target of aggravated damage. It is poorly worded,
but many people can't figure out why it was ever ruled to be the other way
around. Card text analysis:
]Play when a minion attempts to use aggravated damaged against a vampire,
Remember that minion refers to both allies and vampires while vampire can only
refer to vampires.
]whether successfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved. That
]vampire is put in torpor, tapped, with this card on it. During the
Some people feel that all of a sudden that "That vampire" refers to the
minion and not the vampire. Doesn't make any sense to me.
]vampire's next untap phase, burn this card instead of untapping the vampire.
> So if the Gangrel played Wolf Claws to damage Brutus-the-Brujah, some
> generous player could play this out-of-turn master to send the Gangrel to
> torpor. This card is meant to make aggravated damage decks a more risky
> option.
Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get
away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving
Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good
counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough
amounts to make it count.
[ snip ]
> If the Gangrel play a Wolf Claws at the beginning of the battle (before the
> choose strike phase), then I believe that he can be targeted from that
> moment by the Röthshreck.
So what if he just played the Wolf Claws to get it out of his hand and
then Canine Hordes your Leather Jacket or dodges? He hasn't attempted to
deal aggravated damage yet and the conditions for playing Rotschreck haven't
been met.
> In that situation, you could choose to wait after
> the strikes are declared before playing the Röthschreck if you want to keep
> the suspense.
>
> Easy. :-)
Mike
--
Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign
Rules Survey - http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/vekn/
Xian
mboh...@shout.net wrote:
> Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get
> away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving
> Potence / Protean aside).
Ohhhh...Potence/Protean...*drool*
I should re-post (? post?) my pot/pro deck for more suggestions.
Mmm..Ebanezer Roush, Lisette Vizquel, and Rex...plus a few others...
Hmm...maybe that will start some interesting conv. (Sorry...just tired of
all rulings questions and no strategy talk...all my fault, I know...) I'll
go get the listing...
Xian P.S. to Legbiter: Did we finish a final listing on that deck? I think
I'm going to sign up for the next JOL game and get it going if you thought it
was pretty solid. I don't really remember if we had the final numbers down.
(Gonna keep the percentages the same, just up it to 120, I think...)
"they look at you funny when you attack things like a hungry mountain
lion on crack" --greensea
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
William Pyle
8< (hey, that actually DOES look like scissors, cool)
>Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get
>away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving
>Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good
>counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough
>amounts to make it count.
>
By 'main clan with protean' I assume you mean Gangrel.... how many real
good counters to S:CE are there?? IG... we play 4CL, so 4 IG is only
so helpful... but at least the gangrel have Dog Pack... now, granted,
I've never actually used it, but it looks like it'd be damn handy in a
gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that
7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try...
but anyway... thanks for all the answers... and I'll try to stop lurking
so much and actually post more.
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
legb...@my-dejanews.com
xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote:
> In article <74m4em$6cr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> mboh...@shout.net wrote:
> > away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving
> > Potence / Protean aside).
>
>
> I should re-post (? post?) my pot/pro deck for more suggestions.
> Mmm..Ebanezer Roush, Lisette Vizquel, and Rex...plus a few others...
Sorrow had an excellent pot/pro deck in jol64. Easily reconstructed from
discards. I had to oust him with a back-bleed, about which he was NOT pleased.
>
> Hmm...maybe that will start some interesting conv. (Sorry...just tired of
> all rulings questions and no strategy talk...all my fault, I know...) I'll
> go get the listing...
>
> Xian P.S. to Legbiter: Did we finish a final listing on that deck? I think
> I'm going to sign up for the next JOL game and get it going if you thought it
> was pretty solid. I don't really remember if we had the final numbers down.
> (Gonna keep the percentages the same, just up it to 120, I think...)
Yep, i have it in my file and it looks ok. It has defences against all the
strategies except an IG rush deck, and the offence looks reasonable too,
except that the secondary strategy is not going to be very fast. The only
thing we didn't sort out is the votes. Do you want me to post you what we
agreed on? I will try it out in my next jol game [unless you are in it], too,
but i think i will leave the card numbers at 90.
Xian
wp...@mindspring.com wrote:
quick reply to another thread: Yes, Lazvernius does belong in the
Pot/Pro/For deck...I guess I wasn't really thinking. He is *really* damn
big, though, and Ebanezer's rush is really nice...but maybe switch one Laz
for one Eb...
> mboh...@shout.net wrote:
>
> 8< (hey, that actually DOES look like scissors, cool)
> >Aggravated damage for the most part is pretty easy to prevent or get
> >away from. Most aggravated damage in combat is 1 point or maybe 2 (leaving
> >Potence / Protean aside). Also, the main clan with Protean has no real good
> >counter to S:CE. Aggravated damage is tough enough to do in high enough
> >amounts to make it count.
> >
>
> By 'main clan with protean' I assume you mean Gangrel.... how many real
Yup. Gangrel.
> good counters to S:CE are there?? IG... we play 4CL, so 4 IG is only
Ack. No comment on 4CL.
> so helpful... but at least the gangrel have Dog Pack... now, granted,
> I've never actually used it, but it looks like it'd be damn handy in a
Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well,
they're close enough to counters...
> gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that
> 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try...
Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I
don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1
or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you
for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to
turn out to my liking...
> but anyway... thanks for all the answers... and I'll try to stop lurking
> so much and actually post more.
Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle
in the Bronx" is good.
Xian
Jasper Phillips
>Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle
>in the Bronx" is good.
I thought you'd given up on that, my toreador look-alike, tremere
loving friend... ;-) Just what kind of wacky Nosferatu do you
think you are!? I may have to get into a JOL game one of these days,
just so we can see who ends up on top.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
William Pyle
>Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well,
>they're close enough to counters...
ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking
all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche?
yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he
majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which
of you runs out first
>
>> gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that
>> 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try...
>
>Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I
>don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1
>or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you
>for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to
>turn out to my liking...
I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we
play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and
stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody?
not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think
a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make...
we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore.
and besides, none of my group reads this newsgroup anymore,
so they won't be expecting any raptors.... and I probly run through
all my cards about 50% of the games... so it should be fun.
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
Jasper Phillips
William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we
>play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and
>stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody?
>not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think
>a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make...
>we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore.
Um, I hate to break it to you, but Stealth Bleed is _far_ more
viable under 4CL than under NCL. Such game balance distortion is
actually one of the major arguments against CLs.
Derek S. Ray
wrote:
>xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote:
>
>
>>Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well,
>>they're close enough to counters...
>
>ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking
>all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche?
>yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he
>majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which
>of you runs out first
He does. 80% of the time if you've built the deck right =)
Most Majesty-based defense decks don't seem to hold more than one in
their hands in reserve, in order to get as many votes/presence bleed
in as they can. That means that they're betting that the next card
off the top of their deck will ALSO be a Majesty, to save their ass.
For me, it seems to work out that if htey don't have an Elysium handy
to save them the second time... splat.
Most amusing trick? rush... majesty. psyche... he drew another and
majesty AGAIN. psyche AGAIN, and he was out =) (I don't discard
psyches ever, with just 8 in the deck... ;) had one in my hand from
game start.)
Also, from what I've found, if you have enough Rush actions in your
deck, sure he may be able to block one minion's rush, but he won't
have drawn back to save himself from the OTHER two minions. Even more
meaningful when you've used a Haven Uncovered (one rush for three or
four minions).... rush, majesty, ignore. rush, majesty, psyche, OOPS!
didn't draw it? ok, torporize. Now the next two minions grab the
opportunity and rush the other guys however they can (even to the
point of rushing and hoping to draw better strike cards or a blur),
since majesty decks don't cycle cards in combat and you KNOW he's out.
=) Very important to remember:
A combat deck doesn't have to beat all 20 majesties at once... just
enough to run him out in his hand. With enough rush action and
Psyches, you can do it a lot easier than you think since he's not
cycling cards at all. =) (IG obviates the necessity of course.)
>>> gangrel-intercept or 7Raptor deck, if you happen to be playing that
>>> 7Raptor deck as a 4Raptor deck like I'm gonna try...
>>
>>Huh? How is this going to work? If you have a 4CL for the whole deck, I
>>don't think it would be even remotely possible that you'd get out more than 1
>>or 2 during the game, if it went at all quickly. Not that I'm knocking you
>>for trying, but...man...I had to make 1/6 of a 90-card deck Raptors for it to
>>turn out to my liking...
>
>I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we
>play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and
>stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody?
>not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think
>a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make...
>we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore.
We pretty much have the same, with a slight alteration: sneak-bleed
is OK if you don't use obfuscate/dominate. =) if you can find a way
to sneak without obf or a way to bleed without DOM, ... go for it =)
i have a sneakish-bleedish deck that uses Nossie stealth to first load
up on tasha morgan and laptops, and then sends them all to bleed at +2
or so stealth. As effective as Malk OBF/DOM bleed? Nah. Much more
fun though and a lot less likely to cause disgruntledness since you
DID get to see it all coming =)
-- Derek
(replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)
Xian
wp...@mindspring.com wrote:
> xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote:
>
> >Other counters include Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction and Psyche. Well,
> >they're close enough to counters...
>
> ok, I'll grant you fast reaction and hidden lurker... I wasn't thinking
> all that clearly last night, too long a day at work... but psyche?
> yeah, it's great, you start another combat - guess what? he
> majesty's again. not that much help there, 'cept to see which
> of you runs out first
Yup. That's right. Of course, this all says to me that 4CL is bad. If you
didn't have CL, you would always be guessing as to whether or not he still
had one. With 4CL, you know pretty accurately at least how many he has left,
and vice versa. I'd point you to the excellent articles about why Jyhad
doesn't need CL, but I can't remember Mark Langsdorf's URL off the top of my
head (bookmarks missing since 'puter crashed...), but if you go to
www.deckserver.net/jol.html you can find a listing for his page there, I
believe.
> I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we
> play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and
> stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody?
I'm not sure what you mean by "no-CL and stealth-bleed." Do you mean that
*everyone* played S&B decks? How odd.
> not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think
> a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make...
It is.
> we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore.
Hmm...everyone (Chris & Jasper to my dejanews-lagged eyes, so far...) has
been skirting around this, but perhaps what your group needed/needs is a
shake-up in the meta-game. The *ultimate* S&B counter-deck is a Potence rush
deck. Since you're asking about Majesty, I suspect that vote or bleed decks
using presence are pretty prevalent. Hmm...personally, I would recommend
trying to figure out what strategy the other players aren't prepared to deal
with & then play it. Harder to do with 4CL, though. Or you could ask the
newsgroup for its opinions about how to play against certain decks. God
knows I did that for about a year, going on & on about the Gangrel (under
different email addresses). An look at me now! A Nosferatu-wannabe! Heh.
(Sidenote, perhaps the best anti-Gangrel deck is a Fortitude pool-gain deck.)
Unfortunately, once I developed some sense, my playgroup had dissolved.
Need more players...
> and besides, none of my group reads this newsgroup anymore,
> so they won't be expecting any raptors.... and I probly run through
> all my cards about 50% of the games... so it should be fun.
Hmm...it sounds to me more like a (Gangrel?) permanent-intercept. With 4CL,
you might just as well throw in Raven Spies & Sport Bikes too...
I guess it just didn't sound much like a "Raptor" deck, as the primary idea
there is to make people discard many many cards, and under 4CL, it just
wouldn't happen. Unless you added bigbigbig bleeds with Dirty Little
Secrets...
Xian
phil...@tn.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote:
> In article <74phjv$5no$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote:
> >Posting is good. More discussion is good. Taunting Jasper about the "Rubmle
> >in the Bronx" is good.
>
> I thought you'd given up on that, my toreador look-alike, tremere
> loving friend... ;-) Just what kind of wacky Nosferatu do you
> think you are!? I may have to get into a JOL game one of these days,
> just so we can see who ends up on top.
That would be fun. We'd have to plan it though, as I'm usually simply
testing my freak decks. That is, if you want a *real* fight...
And I'm the wacky kind of Nosferatu that designs a deck *around* Yong-Sun and
one other card...look for it in a few days!!! Something that came up a week
or two ago in discussion with Legbiter...while discussing cool but largely
useless/flavor cards...
Xian, who no longer looks like Anneke, as his hair has been shorn.
davey hathorn
> > does the targetted vampire get a
> > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it?
>
> No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all.
So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion
does not take any ag?
And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun?
-davey!
Chris Berger
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
> > > does the targetted vampire get a
> > > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it?
> >
> > No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all.
>
> So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion
> does not take any ag?
>
the other vampire goes crazy and bolts. You shrug, leave the window
closed and the go suck his blood. 8)
> And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun?
>
Nope. All ya gotta do is plug those suckers into your gun and point it
at the enemy. He'll get so scared, he'll piss in his post-modern boots
and run off with his trenchcoat tails between his legs. (Afterall, in
the World of Darkness, everyone wears a trenchcoat.)
-Chris
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
> > > does the targetted vampire get a
> > > chance to dodge the aggravated damage, or prevent it?
> >
> > No, the damage doesn't get resolved at all.
>
> So if I Burst of Sunlight then Rotschreck the opposing minion, my minion
> does not take any ag?
The damage doesn't get resolved, right.
> And do Dragon's Breath Rounds still burn the gun?
No. DBR only burns the gun when the strike (from the gun) resolves.
William Pyle
>In article <36707181...@news.mindspring.com>,
>William Pyle <wp...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>I'll grant you that I'm not gonna get that many raptors out... but we
>>play pretty slow-developing games... we used to play no-CL and
>>stealth-bleed, but how tough is it to stealth-bleed somebody?
>>not trying to be disparaging (there's a 50cent word), but I think
>>a stealth-bleed deck has to be the easiest deck to make...
>>we just got away from that cause no one had any fun anymore.
>
>Um, I hate to break it to you, but Stealth Bleed is _far_ more
>viable under 4CL than under NCL. Such game balance distortion is
>actually one of the major arguments against CLs.
I know that... there's tons more stealth than intercept if you're
limiting yourself to 4 cards... my main point was that we moved
away from stealth-bleed, that's all...
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
William Pyle
8<
>We pretty much have the same, with a slight alteration: sneak-bleed
>is OK if you don't use obfuscate/dominate. =) if you can find a way
>to sneak without obf or a way to bleed without DOM, ... go for it =)
>i have a sneakish-bleedish deck that uses Nossie stealth to first load
>up on tasha morgan and laptops, and then sends them all to bleed at +2
>or so stealth. As effective as Malk OBF/DOM bleed? Nah. Much more
>fun though and a lot less likely to cause disgruntledness since you
>DID get to see it all coming =)
>
>-- Derek
>(replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)
I've noticed that.... we dont' mind nearly as much if you go with
a protean-stealth (or other non-obfuscate) concept...
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
William Pyle
8<
>Yup. That's right. Of course, this all says to me that 4CL is bad. If you
>didn't have CL, you would always be guessing as to whether or not he still
>had one. With 4CL, you know pretty accurately at least how many he has left,
>and vice versa. I'd point you to the excellent articles about why Jyhad
>doesn't need CL, but I can't remember Mark Langsdorf's URL off the top of my
>head (bookmarks missing since 'puter crashed...), but if you go to
>www.deckserver.net/jol.html you can find a listing for his page there, I
>believe.
I read all those articles 'bout a year ago, the last time I frequented the ng's...
I seem to recall having been involved in several lengthy and heated debates
on the merits of 4CL vs No-CL... but that's neither here nor there, we play
mostly 4CL... you don't have to follow it, but most of us do unless we have
a nifty concept to use.... and besides, I only own 5 raptors, so making
a 4CL raptor (more a just gangrel-intercept deck, truly...) deck isn't
too far from my No-CL deck would be...
>Hmm...everyone (Chris & Jasper to my dejanews-lagged eyes, so far...) has
>been skirting around this, but perhaps what your group needed/needs is a
>shake-up in the meta-game. The *ultimate* S&B counter-deck is a Potence rush
>deck. Since you're asking about Majesty, I suspect that vote or bleed decks
>using presence are pretty prevalent. Hmm...personally, I would recommend
>trying to figure out what strategy the other players aren't prepared to deal
>with & then play it. Harder to do with 4CL, though. Or you could ask the
>newsgroup for its opinions about how to play against certain decks. God
>knows I did that for about a year, going on & on about the Gangrel (under
>different email addresses). An look at me now! A Nosferatu-wannabe! Heh.
>(Sidenote, perhaps the best anti-Gangrel deck is a Fortitude pool-gain deck.)
> Unfortunately, once I developed some sense, my playgroup had dissolved.
>Need more players...
We play all kinds of decks... we just try to stay away from stealth bleed,
because, as you say, the *ultimate* counter to s/b is rush, and it really
sucks limiting yourself to playing one deck type all the time to counter
someone elses deck... and it tended that if you were trying some other
concept, you'd get hosed before you could work it out cause you had
no decent stealth-bleed counter, and no time to figure one out...
ya know, I don't think that paragraph made a lot of sense... my point
was supposed to be that we try to avoid decks that are not fun, and
we weren't having as much fun playing s/b as we were not playing s/b.
I do get the feeling, however, that if someone in our group were to play
anyone outside our group, we'd pretty much all get hosed pretty quick.
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
Xian
> I read all those articles 'bout a year ago, the last time I frequented the ng's...
> I seem to recall having been involved in several lengthy and heated debates
> on the merits of 4CL vs No-CL... but that's neither here nor there, we play
> mostly 4CL... you don't have to follow it, but most of us do unless we have
> a nifty concept to use.... and besides, I only own 5 raptors, so making
> a 4CL raptor (more a just gangrel-intercept deck, truly...) deck isn't
> too far from my No-CL deck would be...
What? You haven't traded your ass off to acquire many many copies of a card
that's only *really* useful for this one concept? Oh. Whoops. Hehe. I
forgot that not everyone is insane like *me*. (Though did Legbiter ever
acquire all those vampires IRL? I'm scared of that deck in JOL84...) Yes, I
did trade for waaay too many Raptors. But they're funny!
[snip my comments re my playgroup & my whining about the Gangrel]
>
> We play all kinds of decks... we just try to stay away from stealth bleed,
> because, as you say, the *ultimate* counter to s/b is rush, and it really
> sucks limiting yourself to playing one deck type all the time to counter
> someone elses deck... and it tended that if you were trying some other
Hmm...I don't have lots of experience with throwing a big monkeywrench into
the metagame, but from what I've picked up from everyone else, you only have
to play the big baddie for a couple of games before people either start
ganging up on you or change their decks. I'm a *big* fan of making people
switch decks & then changing to something even more annoying as soon as they
do. I like messing with their heads...
> concept, you'd get hosed before you could work it out cause you had
> no decent stealth-bleed counter, and no time to figure one out...
Hmm...I would think if you played <plug> Tremere, you would (even under 4CL)
have access to Deflection, Telepatic Misdirection, and perhaps Redirection
from Sabbat. Which also hoses Obf/Dom S&B </plug>. I realize these comments
are by-and-large moot, as you mention that your group has stopped playing
this way, but I kinda sense a kindred spirit here, as for a long time, I was
locked into playing one deck type before I (as I mentioned) evolved my deck
design skills.
> ya know, I don't think that paragraph made a lot of sense... my point
> was supposed to be that we try to avoid decks that are not fun, and
> we weren't having as much fun playing s/b as we were not playing s/b.
Having fun!?!?!?! This isn't about having fun!! This is about winning!!
Hehe. Okay...check that. Hehehe. Kidding. *Very* kidding. I'm one of the
biggest proponents of fun. I think I've only swept the table once, and that
was cause I had a S&B prey who was nowhere near prepared for my Pot/Tha rush
deck.
> I do get the feeling, however, that if someone in our group were to play
> anyone outside our group, we'd pretty much all get hosed pretty quick.
Well, I don't know about outside your group in general, but there are a few
*good* players on here. I'm feeling better about my playing skills recently
(though JOL84 isn't helping at all...I'm chalking that up to poor deck
design...), but I think this newsgroup can tend to induce inferiority
complexes in almost any player, cause as far as I can tell, mainly the
big-time players are regulars on the newsgroup, and most of what's said is
fairly sound strategy. As opposed to some of the other sci newsgroups I'm on
where people babble on endlessly about stuff they know nothing about. Which
reminds me that I need to go the GenCon this year and hope there's Jyhad or
something can get informally organized, cause I want to meet & play with all
you crazies who go...
But don't worry about the quality of players within your group versus
outside. And if you start playing other people, it'll help. In almost any
game, new ideas & play styles help you learn. Still...play/design isn't
everything. I'm very entertained that I was talking with someone recently
who actually (first-hand) won a game against players with constructed decks
by randomly grabbing some vampires & some cards from a friend's collection.
I mean, we've all *heard* stories like this, but getting to say that it's
someone I've talked to is much cooler than, "Oh yeah, I heard this story
about some guy who..."
Xian, rambling on about not much....
James Coupe
<wp...@mindspring.com> writes
>I know that... there's tons more stealth than intercept if you're
>limiting yourself to 4 cards... my main point was that we moved
>away from stealth-bleed, that's all...
Which then means a card limit is completely unnecessary. It is supposed
to be a balancing factor, in other people's opinions, yet it is still
necessary to have gentlemen's agreements to move away from it. Under
NCL, this is less necessary.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England)
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
William Pyle
8<
>What? You haven't traded your ass off to acquire many many copies of a card
>that's only *really* useful for this one concept? Oh. Whoops. Hehe. I
>forgot that not everyone is insane like *me*. (Though did Legbiter ever
>acquire all those vampires IRL? I'm scared of that deck in JOL84...) Yes, I
>did trade for waaay too many Raptors. But they're funny!
I dont' really have anyone to trade with, I guess... except the folks in
my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many
of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...)
but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves...
9<
>Hmm...I don't have lots of experience with throwing a big monkeywrench into
>the metagame, but from what I've picked up from everyone else, you only have
>to play the big baddie for a couple of games before people either start
>ganging up on you or change their decks. I'm a *big* fan of making people
>switch decks & then changing to something even more annoying as soon as they
>do. I like messing with their heads...
8<
>Hmm...I would think if you played <plug> Tremere, you would (even under 4CL)
>have access to Deflection, Telepatic Misdirection, and perhaps Redirection
>from Sabbat. Which also hoses Obf/Dom S&B </plug>. I realize these comments
>are by-and-large moot, as you mention that your group has stopped playing
>this way, but I kinda sense a kindred spirit here, as for a long time, I was
>locked into playing one deck type before I (as I mentioned) evolved my deck
>design skills.
heh... in fact, I think one of my larger successes was probably my first Tha/For
deck... probly won 3 or 4 in a row... then, when people switched tactics to
beat that I went to a gangrel voting deck, I believe...
definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short
on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL....
we've talked about going to NL, and no one seems to mind, but it's
kinda habit these days... but I DO need to come up with some new
ideas after I test the 2 decks I've got (that 4CL raptor/intercept deck
and a obf/pre camarilla-only bloodgain/vote deck (wihch looks to be
great fun if I can get it going, min crypt 35, max 44, kinda huge...))
so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share??
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)
Xian
wp...@mindspring.com wrote:
> I dont' really have anyone to trade with, I guess... except the folks in
You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for
one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those,
I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete...
> my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many
> of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...)
> but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves...
Heh. 4 copies of the Tomb...evil...
> heh... in fact, I think one of my larger successes was probably my first Tha/For
> deck... probly won 3 or 4 in a row... then, when people switched tactics to
> beat that I went to a gangrel voting deck, I believe...
Played Tha/For last night...couldn't beat the Toreador vote deck that drew
*all* of its Minion Taps & 5th Trads right after I ousted the 2 players
between him & me. Soooo close...
> definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short
> on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL....
> we've talked about going to NL, and no one seems to mind, but it's
> kinda habit these days... but I DO need to come up with some new
> ideas after I test the 2 decks I've got (that 4CL raptor/intercept deck
> and a obf/pre camarilla-only bloodgain/vote deck (wihch looks to be
> great fun if I can get it going, min crypt 35, max 44, kinda huge...))
>
> so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share??
Hmm...not really for 4CL. Most of the decks I design these days are somewhat
*cough* off-the-wall, and would have lots of trouble working under 4CL. I
like the Obf/Pre idea...not too hard to do as 4CL, but yeah, the crypt sucks.
I'd throw in a few Setites and a few Invitation Accepted myself,
but...that's your call. Damn, haven't had time to work on that promised deck
to showcase Yong-Sun and an as yet unmentioned card...will post it soon.
Hmm...my Tha/For deck would not work well under 4CL, as I'd run out of Dawn
Operations waaay too fast. Mmm...Scouting Mission + Threats + Dawn Op + Skin
of Night + Soul Burn. Weather Control would work great too, I know...and it
would have saved me from that one Rotschreck. Hmm...
I don't know. It seems to me that the only really effective 4CL decks are
either "a little bit of everything" decks, or stealth & bleed, or vote decks.
I saw an interesting Corruption/Necromancy deck last night, but it got bled
out before it got going...recycle the Corruptions with Carlotta, Clan
Impersonated Setites...not a bad concept, and about the only way to work
Corruption under 4CL, but icky slow. (A couple of the players last night
were thinking Jyhad has always been 4CL, a couple of us arrived later & had
no clue they were playing 4CL until about halfway through the game, but no
one bitched too much...)
So...nothing exciting for 4CL...you *could* try a Brujah Pitch deck, but it's
hard to pull off...4 Bum's Rush, 4 Ambush, 4 Haven Uncovered, 4 Flash, 4
Blur, 4 Thrown Sewer Lid, 4 Thrown Gate, 4 Sacrament of Carnage...you get the
idea...I suppose you could put a couple of Sport Bikes in, but that's one
thing I don't like about 4C (sorry if I'm going off...)...it seems like you
run out of cards to put in, so you by default end up putting in either
intercept or votes. Yeah, you can get screwed pretty hard if you don't come
up with any votes in some games, but other times, if you don't want to pay
for them, you shouldn't have to.
Whoa...okay...that's it for now...new decks later...
Xian
Dhar...@yahoo.com
> You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for
> one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those,
> I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete...
*nods* I've got about a half-dozen of them at least. I'm pretty sure I have
a complete collection, but I really haven't sat down to figure it out. What
I need is multiple copies of certain cards to pull off some different decks.
I've got a Masquerade Enforcement/Banishment deck in the works that has me
using some unusual cards...namely Cairo Airport and Ravnos Acceptance.
Lazar (the 3 cap Ravnos) has a great ability to be used with a Banishment
deck and since it's a voting deck, I might as well give him some Presence
and make him a Prince. I've also tossed in 6 Camarilla Threat cards as well.
You'd be surprised how well that vote works when multiples are in play.
> > my group, and since we play 4CL, I've pretty much got that many
> > of everything ('cept like, the Tomb, and certain Sabbat cards...)
> > but for the most part we can cover our card needs amongst ourselves...
>
> Heh. 4 copies of the Tomb...evil...
I'm kinda partial to Dreams of the Sphinx, myself.
> > definitely good to keep switching tactics, but I'm kinda running short
> > on deck ideas, especially those that might have a chance under 4CL....
> > so any new fun and exciting ideas out there to share??
I usually play with a 6CL, myself....but voting comes to mind. Contrary to
popular opinion, you can make a very effective voting deck without 25
CA and KRC votes. In fact, I can make a good voting deck with a 2CL.
Gangrel combat can be done (4 x Claws of the Dead, Wolf Claws, Bone Spur)
pretty easily.
I imagine a Tzimisce Bauble deck would work okay....although mine is a 6CL.
*digs through saved decks*
Oh! Here's a dom-cel-pot 4CL deck that does failry well at covering all
the bases. It's got some bleed (which I mainly use to get out younger
vampires) some combat and some votes. It's not going to win tournaments,
but it's a fun deck. You should have no problem tuning it to taste.
Noal
-Crypt (12)
Angelica, Canonicus-Lasombra-10 cap-DOM POT cel-Cardinal
Constanza Vinti-Brujah-8 cap-CEL POT DOM-Prince of Rome
Donal O'Connor-Brujah-8 cap-CEL POT DOM-Prince of Dublin
Carlotta Giovanni-Giovanni-7 cap-POT dom
Anvil-Brujah-6 cap-dom CEL POT-Primogen
Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro-Malkavian-6 cap-DOM cel pot
Lisette Vizquel-Lasombra-6 cap-POT DOM-Bishop
Volker, Puppet Prince-Brujah-5 cap-CEL pot-Prince of Frankfurt
Ignacio, The Black Priest-Lasombra-4 cap-pot dom
Jimmy Dunn-Pander-4 cap-POT CEL
Cameron-Lasombra-3 cap-dom pot
Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn-Brujah-3 cap-cel pot
-Master Cards (20)
Carthage Remembered-Master-Brujah-1 pool
(x2) Celerity
(x2) Dominate
Elysium: The Palace of Versaille
Fear of Mekhet
Giant's Blood
Legendary Vampire
(4x) Minion Tap
(2x) Political Seizure
(2x) Potence
Powerbase: Chicago
Power Structure
Society of Leopold
-Equipment and Retainers (2)
Camarilla Vitae Slave
Lyndhurst Estate, New York
-Actions (19)
(2x) Clan Impersonation
Distraction
Dominate Kine
(3x) The Fifth Tradition: Hospitality
(4x) Govern The Unaligned-Action
(2x) Political Struggle
(4x) Scouting Mission
(2x) Thanks for the Donation
-Reactions (9)
Cardinal Sin: Insubordination
(4x) Deflection-Reaction
(4x) The Second Tradition: Domain
-Combat (20)
Blur
(2x) Burning Wrath
(2x) Decapitate
(2x) Disarm
(2x) Flash
(3x) Immortal Grapple
(2x) Lightning Reflexes
(2x) Sacrament of Carnage
(4x) Sideslip
-Political Actions (20)
(2x) Anathema
Ancient Influence
Archon
Brujah Justicar
Cardinal Benediction
(2x) Conservative Agitation
Crusade: Detroit
Crusade: Pittsburgh
Investiture
(3x) Kine Resources Contested
Parity Shift
Praxis Seizure: Cairo
Praxis Seizure: Stockholm
(2x) Praxis Solomon
--
"DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors."
-Ambrose Bierce.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
William Pyle
8<
>You can always post to the group...speaking of which, I'm *still* looking for
>one measly Mind Rape (hehe...) and a Hidden Pathways. After I acquire those,
>I'll be satisfied...for now...as my little collection will be complete...
I've only got one mind rape and 2 hidden pathways... I'm thinking of trying
to convince my group to go in on an order for some sabbat boxes... it'll
probably work, so maybe I'll have a mind rape or a pathways for ya...
I do belive I'm becoming disillusioned with 4CL... it had its place
before, but I'm fairly certain I've played just about every reasonable
4CL deck out there.... I'm sure there's someone out there with
some twisted ideas <eye xian> that haven't found their way into
my degenerate brain, but probly not that many...
for things like corruption, we tend to overlook 4CL... I mean, 4 corruptions
and a nickel will get you a hot cup of JACK SQUAT, and we all realize that...
but I mean, 4 raptors, that could still be kinda useful... not as useful as, oh,
say 7 raptors, but still useful... so perhaps we'll see if I can't convince
everyone to go back to NL.... I mean, we started off that way, but one
of our buddies who went to Drexel came back and was playing 4CL so
we gave it a try, and it just kinda stuck...
>I don't know. It seems to me that the only really effective 4CL decks are
>either "a little bit of everything" decks, or stealth & bleed, or vote decks.
> I saw an interesting Corruption/Necromancy deck last night, but it got bled
>out before it got going...recycle the Corruptions with Carlotta, Clan
>Impersonated Setites...not a bad concept, and about the only way to work
>Corruption under 4CL, but icky slow. (A couple of the players last night
>were thinking Jyhad has always been 4CL, a couple of us arrived later & had
>no clue they were playing 4CL until about halfway through the game, but no
>one bitched too much...)
yeah, I've noticed that most of our decks tend to have a little of everything
in em these days...
Bill Pyle
(wp...@mindspring.com)