Is combat becoming more prevalent?
Sutekh.23
in the TWDA and it seems to me that this seems to be the case. Sure
there still are the "8 majesty" decks floating around, but they seem
to be less common nowadays. Also, I tend to read "my playgroup is
combat heavy" a hell of alot more than say, 5 years ago.
Anyone have any thoughts on this issue, or is it just me?
Sutekh_23
Sutekh.23
difference is good or bad for the game?
Sutekh_23
Dasein
There does seem to be a bit more. I still see very few "pure rush"
decks enter the TWDA, but there is definitely some intercept-combat.
There has also definitely been an increase in the number of bruise/
bleed decks, which is interesting, especially given the persistence of
the strange myth often propagated in this newsgroup that they
inherently suck and can never win tournaments. The common form lately
has been dom/for crypts with walking sticks, zip guns and lots of
target vitals. It's likely that T:V really helped these decks, since
they are free, usable by anyone, replaces, very cyclable i.e. can be
used by sticks or guns or punches (as opposed to say lucky blow), and
generally awesome.
I think Camera Phone has helped combat decks too, especially bruise/
bleed. CodexOtEG will see increasing play and has been used by myself
to great effect (though admittedly in a Nostoket wall deck).
I think this is a pretty good thing for the game but could go too far.
It would be about as boring playing Fight Club every night as it would
be to have five !Malk KS decks sit down at a table every night (not
quite, but almost).
Obtenebration
As long as it doesn't go from being unwinnable to being a must play to
win.
Hodgestar
strategy. If there are very few combat decks, combat tends to be a
very unsuccessful strategy. Once many decks at a table have
significant combat packages it improves drastically. This is
especially true of rush combat.
At a recent tournament I had a weenie dominate / fortitude bleed deck
as my predator. Both my deck and its predators deck were rush combat.
If either of the rush decks hadn't been there the other one would have
had little or no hope of a VP. Together the two rush decks contained
the weenie deck despite its fortitude prevent and both rush decks went
on to have a chance at earning VPs (my grandpredator got 1 and I had a
shot at the last two but was missing a combat card or two at the
crucial moment).
The downside to a combat-heavy meta game is that one needs to pack a
significant combat package. The upside is that it significantly
reduces the impact of bounce and generally encourages decks that have
a plan beyond bleed-my-prey.
I think almost every rush deck needs a bleed aspect -- Fame dunking is
okay but it's too slow by itself. Putting down a Famed minion and then
bleeding for three is much better.
Schiavo
Simon
Ector
Dasein wrote:
> On Mar 18, 1:53 pm, "Sutekh.23" <sutekh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've recently been looking through decklists either posted online or
> > in the TWDA and it seems to me that this seems to be the case. Sure
> > there still are the "8 majesty" decks floating around, but they seem
> > to be less common nowadays. Also, I tend to read "my playgroup is
> > combat heavy" a hell of alot more than say, 5 years ago.
> >
> > Anyone have any thoughts on this issue, or is it just me?
> >
> > Sutekh_23
>
> There does seem to be a bit more. I still see very few "pure rush"
> decks enter the TWDA, but there is definitely some intercept-combat.
> There has also definitely been an increase in the number of bruise/
> bleed decks, which is interesting, especially given the persistence of
> the strange myth often propagated in this newsgroup that they
> inherently suck and can never win tournaments. The common form lately
> has been dom/for crypts with walking sticks, zip guns and lots of
> target vitals. It's likely that T:V really helped these decks, since
> they are free, usable by anyone, replaces, very cyclable i.e. can be
> used by sticks or guns or punches (as opposed to say lucky blow), and
> generally awesome.
R & D department guys are doing their job right. Every major strategy
should have potential to win tournaments, so they will support combat
until it becomes "too good".
> I think Camera Phone has helped combat decks too, especially bruise/
> bleed. CodexOtEG will see increasing play and has been used by myself
> to great effect (though admittedly in a Nostoket wall deck).
>
> I think this is a pretty good thing for the game but could go too far.
> It would be about as boring playing Fight Club every night as it would
> be to have five !Malk KS decks sit down at a table every night (not
> quite, but almost).
It would be much more boring, since combat takes much more time than
bleed, especially if both combatants have a lot of different combat
cards. In that case, they will have to deliberately declare each phase
of each combat round... and one turn may take 10 minutes or even more.
Hope this will never happen :)
Peter D Bakija
> I've recently been looking through decklists either posted online or
> in the TWDA and it seems to me that this seems to be the case. Sure
> there still are the "8 majesty" decks floating around, but they seem
> to be less common nowadays. Also, I tend to read "my playgroup is
> combat heavy" a hell of alot more than say, 5 years ago.
I don't know if there are more people playing combat than there used
to be (although there might be); I think the slow, steady upgrade of
combat as a strategy is starting to pay off with more tournament wins.
I *still* don't see a lot of primarily Rush decks winning, but you see
a lot of, like, weenie dominate with WWS/Target Vitals winning. Which
could mean that the WWS/Target Vitals is making the weenie dominate
work better. Or it could mean that weenie dominate is good, and having
8 each of WWS and Target Vitals doesn't make it any less good.
There are also probably more people playing sideline/hitback/defensive
combat in decks (see: the string of !Ven decks winning of late), as
that kind of combat is handy in decks that have other ways to defend
themselves (bounce/intercept) and oust folks (dominate), and often
more helpful in the long run and 8 Majesties.
Tupdog also has been doing well in recent history. Which makes sense,
as Tupdog is great for fighting (cheap, potence and aggrivated damage)
and ousting (comes with dominate).
I suspect in the grand scheme, what is happening is that more people
are playing sideline combat, which could be the result of nothing more
than the existence of WWS and Target Vitals (which turns any deck into
a viable combat threat), and so more people are playing hitback/
defensive combat. Which means more combat shows up in the TWDA.
Rush decks still blow, however (although I just finished a string of 3
games on JOL with a cel/pot Lid rush deck that got, like, 2GW/11VP. If
only that would happen in real life...)
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I think Camera Phone has helped combat decks too, especially bruise/
> bleed. CodexOtEG will see increasing play and has been used by myself
> to great effect (though admittedly in a Nostoket wall deck).
I don't know that Camera Phone has been that much of a help to Rush
decks--you already had Tasha/JS Simmons (which didn't see a ton of
play in Rush decks) and Computer Hacking (which did) and even Laptop
(which if Camera Phone was going to help, Laptop would have already
been seeing more play, 1 pool and all). Codex of Edenic Grounds
Keepers, however, I agree is fantastic for Rush decks--that a 3 cap
with a Blood Doll can bleed for 4 a turn is huge for a Rush deck (that
can clear the decks and make it happen). I'm a big fan of the Codex
for rush.
-Peter
suoli
> There has also definitely been an increase in the number of bruise/
> bleed decks, which is interesting, especially given the persistence of
> the strange myth often propagated in this newsgroup that they
> inherently suck and can never win tournaments. The common form lately
> has been dom/for crypts with walking sticks, zip guns and lots of
> target vitals. It's likely that T:V really helped these decks, since
> they are free, usable by anyone, replaces, very cyclable i.e. can be
> used by sticks or guns or punches (as opposed to say lucky blow), and
> generally awesome.
Bruise still sucks. The dom/for/stick-deck is more of a horde bleed
that substitutes disposability with resilience.
Kushiel
> There are also probably more people playing sideline/hitback/defensive
> combat in decks (see: the string of !Ven decks winning of late), as
> that kind of combat is handy in decks that have other ways to defend
> themselves (bounce/intercept) and oust folks (dominate), and often
> more helpful in the long run and 8 Majesties.
I think this is a pretty good encapsulation of what seems to be
happening. I know I've been seeing a lot more opportunistic combat in
decks, which I'd hazard a guess is a result of the following process
happening to a lot of people who didn't used to play combat decks
before Lords of the Night was printed:
1) Put some Target Vitals into a deck that pre-LotN wouldn't have had
any offensive combat tech at all.
2) Notice how 1) sometimes works out really strongly in that deck's
favor.
3) Wonder what other decks might do well with some opportunistic
combat.
4) Start experimenting with decks dreamed up during 3); notice that
they do better than expected.
5) Since everyone else has also been going through the previous four
steps, encounter more combat in general.
Like, I still don't see many people playing RARGH NOW I KILL ALL YOUR
GUYS combat decks, because that's so problematic a strategy in a
multiplayer game as to be generally self-defeating. But that small
block of combat cards that grants you massive freedom of movement
during the endgame? Just brilliant, if you can pull it off without
neutering the other functions of your deck.
John Eno
librarian
> On Mar 18, 12:01 am, Dasein <dasein2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I think Camera Phone has helped combat decks too, especially bruise/
>> bleed. CodexOtEG will see increasing play and has been used by myself
>> to great effect (though admittedly in a Nostoket wall deck).
>
> I don't know that Camera Phone has been that much of a help to Rush
> decks-
Probably not, but definitely helps Bruise & Bleed.
Peter D Bakija
> > I don't know that Camera Phone has been that much of a help to Rush
> > decks-
>
> Probably not, but definitely helps Bruise & Bleed.
Camera Phone helps a lot of stuff, but not so much Rush combat. Making
it so all of your guys can bleed for 2 with no cards at all (other
than the initial Camera Phone) goes a long way towards making any deck
have a good offensive potential. If it results in folks blocking you
more (so you can hit them some as a result), all the better.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> 1) Put some Target Vitals into a deck that pre-LotN wouldn't have had
> any offensive combat tech at all.
> 2) Notice how 1) sometimes works out really strongly in that deck's
> favor.
> 3) Wonder what other decks might do well with some opportunistic
> combat.
> 4) Start experimenting with decks dreamed up during 3); notice that
> they do better than expected.
> 5) Since everyone else has also been going through the previous four
> steps, encounter more combat in general.
Yeah, that seems like exactly like what I was getting at, and I think
that is exactly what is going on. The environment being flooded with
Weighted Walking Sticks (which for a long time were kind of hard to
get, but have been common as dirt for the last few sets) started the
upswing of opportunistic combat in decks that wouldn't have had any
combat originally, and Target Vitals just made that even better a
plan. Now that [many more people have more than they used to, although
not everyone by any possible stretch of the imagination, and any
claims to the contrary would be patently mad] Target Vitals, *any*
deck can suddenly have a very reasonable punch to dissuade blocking
and/or hit back when they get in a fight. So more folks experiment
with some combat in decks that wouldn't otherwise have any, and go
from there.
> Like, I still don't see many people playing RARGH NOW I KILL ALL YOUR
> GUYS combat decks, because that's so problematic a strategy in a
> multiplayer game as to be generally self-defeating.
Well, ya know, they can still work if built and played properly. But
really, that kind of deck isn't really any better than it used to be,
and possibly worse in the grand scheme, 'cause of the above mentioned
set of factors.
-Peter
librarian
We are in agreement. With Rush, you really don't have the actions to spare
getting a Camera phone anyway. You should oust using Fame, Tension,
Dragonbound.
Speaking of which, made an Oppugnant Night deck yet?
best -
chris
Peter D Bakija
> We are in agreement. With Rush, you really don't have the actions to spare
> getting a Camera phone anyway. You should oust using Fame, Tension,
> Dragonbound.
>
> Speaking of which, made an Oppugnant Night deck yet?
Heh--not yet. My first monkeying with the new BB tech is the deck we
are both playing; my IG/fight tech new stuff monkeying has all gone
into the bad Grotesque deck I'm playing in that other JOL game.
-Peter
Dasein
> games on JOL with a cel/pot Lid rush deck that got, like, 2GW/11VP. If
> only that would happen in real life...)
What is the combat module? I have a CEL/pot deck that is basically
nothing but thrown gates, pursuits, lids and psyches.
Gate to long, if they majesty then psyche, otherwise pursuit and throw
a lid.
Sometimes works. I think has won a couple of games but can also bomb.
Crypt needs some tuning (needs more Dunn...)
Peter D Bakija
> I have a CEL/pot deck that is basically
> nothing but thrown gates, pursuits, lids and psyches.
Oh, ya know, Flash, Lid, some Psyche!. And a few Tastes. The deck came
out of that conversation a bit back about how inferior celerity was
useless. So I built a deck that was mostly inferior celerity (well, to
be fair, the crypt is, like, 7 cel and 5 CEL, as it is impossible to
build a pot/cel deck without running into CEL) and Sewer Lids. And
unsurprisingly, it is pretty good.
> Gate to long, if they majesty then psyche, otherwise pursuit and throw
> a lid.
I don't have any additionals in the deck, as CEL isn't that prevalent.
Flash to long. Throw a lid. If they Majesty, you are out 2 cards. If
you have CEL, Psyche! and start over. If they don't Majesty, press if
you need to.
> Sometimes works. I think has won a couple of games but can also bomb.
> Crypt needs some tuning (needs more Dunn...)
I dunno--my current one has only the 1 Jimmy Dunn (these days, it is
incredibly unlikely to get in a Jimmy Dunn war) and having only 1 of
each minion is certainly handy in the long run.
-Peter
Kevin M.
> I dunno--my current one has only the 1 Jimmy Dunn (these days,
> it is incredibly unlikely to get in a Jimmy Dunn war) and having
> only 1 of each minion is certainly handy in the long run.
Given all the bad things that can happen to a vampire, and given
that those things are far more likely to happen than you putting
all twelve of your crypt cards into play, why wouldn't you run
2x Jimmy Dunn if you are able to do so?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Peter D Bakija
> Given all the bad things that can happen to a vampire, and given
> that those things are far more likely to happen than you putting
> all twelve of your crypt cards into play, why wouldn't you run
> 2x Jimmy Dunn if you are able to do so?
All of those things are true. And yet I've been playing the deck with
1 Jimmy Dunn, and it has been working well, and I have never found
myself wishing I had a second. I know. It confused me too.
-Peter
librarian
Going waaay off topic now, but
So far:
bad Grotesque deck > Kiev circle...
best -
chris
Peter D Bakija
> Going waaay off topic now, but
>
> So far:
>
> bad Grotesque deck > Kiev circle...
>
Heh--I dunno; my Kiev deck isn't doing so badly--I got 2VP in a 5
player the other night, and would have won if I was man enough to
bleed for 6 when I had the chance (I put some "look at my prey's hand"
tech in now). I'm doing ok so far in a few JOL games. My Grotesque
deck has, ya know, Dominate, so it isn't *that* bad, but the need to
have locations is endlessly a pain. Even when you have a lot in your
deck.
-Peter
Blooded Sand
finding mots and all the loquipment in the world kinda good for
grotesques. funniest is when one grotesque has the loc for another.
Look mommy, siamese twins!
shhhh, they aren't ahrimanes or blood brothers, dont point...
Dasein
Weird. Because I find in my deck my favourite star dude who rocks my
world is Jacob Bragg. 4 cap with CEL pot? Awesome! (my deck uses quite
a lot of CEL, or at least tries to).
But then you look at Jimmy, and he makes Jacob look like a bit of a
chump.
In fact, that's something I've been thinking about. Jimmy Dunn has an
insane collection of disciplines for his cost, but this "scary and
potentially really bad" disadvantage.
Thing is, when Jimmy was printed, your crypt options were a lot more
limited than they are now, so your chances of having someone burn your
Jimmy were much higher. Has he now (due to the addition of you know, a
good few hundred new crypt cards) become a little too strong for his
cost?
One could I suppose argue that the addition of new cards haven't
actually pushed Jimmy Dunn any further down the ladder (well, the
ladder that Jimmy is on, i.e. the "RARGH I BASH JOOO" ladder), because
nobody has emerged that has a better CEL POT efficiency than Jimmy, so
if you are playing CEL POT, you are in fact just as likely to put
Jimmy in your crypt and ignore the last 400 vampires printed. But I
don't think that holds too much water.
You might want to play for example with some funky Laibon cards (or
auspex combinations) and thus give Osebo a go. Or you might want to
chuck in some Black Hand toys and thus look some of those G3/4
vampires, or whatever.
Not that Jimmy Dunn decks are terrorising the tournament scene though
I suppose... anyway I'm more arguing with myself at this point. Carry
on!
Bob
> Weird. Because I find in my deck my favourite star dude who rocks my
> world is Jacob Bragg. 4 cap with CEL pot? Awesome! (my deck uses quite
> a lot of CEL, or at least tries to).
> But then you look at Jimmy, and he makes Jacob look like a bit of a
> chump.
That must be Victor Tolliver you are talking about, not Jimmy Dunn.
> In fact, that's something I've been thinking about. Jimmy Dunn has an
> insane collection of disciplines for his cost, but this "scary and
> potentially really bad" disadvantage.
> Thing is, when Jimmy was printed, your crypt options were a lot more
> limited than they are now, so your chances of having someone burn your
> Jimmy were much higher. Has he now (due to the addition of you know, a
> good few hundred new crypt cards) become a little too strong for his
> cost?
> One could I suppose argue that the addition of new cards haven't
> actually pushed Jimmy Dunn any further down the ladder (well, the
> ladder that Jimmy is on, i.e. the "RARGH I BASH JOOO" ladder), because
> nobody has emerged that has a better CEL POT efficiency than Jimmy, so
> if you are playing CEL POT, you are in fact just as likely to put
> Jimmy in your crypt and ignore the last 400 vampires printed. But I
> don't think that holds too much water.
> You might want to play for example with some funky Laibon cards (or
> auspex combinations) and thus give Osebo a go. Or you might want to
> chuck in some Black Hand toys and thus look some of those G3/4
> vampires, or whatever.
>
> Not that Jimmy Dunn decks are terrorising the tournament scene though
> I suppose... anyway I'm more arguing with myself at this point. Carry
> on!
All the 6-cap primogens with superior POT-CEL are good, but there is
little point in comparing Anvil or Pug Jackson with Jimmy Dunn: you
can play them both. Now how about Tomaine?
For 2 more than Jimmy, Tomaine gets one vote and superior PRE that
gives him plenty of other options: Iron glare, Entrancement, Vote
tech,... I even like his special. The rush strategy will give your
grandprey a couple of turns without any pressure between the moment
you take your prey's minions off and the moment you oust her.
Tomaine's special balances this by giving your prey a little help to
move forward.