Barbed Wire Project - Nosferatu
Preston
I am out to try and build more players here in Dallas. The introduction
of a new player into the game to the game presents an intriguing set of
problems. Teaching them the intricacies of the game is a bit hard, but
I feel that's been pretty well solved already (at least, as best it can
be given the complexity of the game).
What you ideally would like to do is to get the new player playing as
part of your regular play group. Here is where it gets tricky. The deck
he will be playing will not be up to par with everyone elses deck.
While the multiplayer nature of VTES means that the table can react to
the fact that the new player's deck is not so good, that only goes so
far. This problem is often solved by giving the newbie a
sneak-and-bleed deck, but the problem then becomes the fact that he
only has one deck to play. He sees the rest of the group playing decks
that are doing snazzy thing and he tries to balance the desire to go
further into the game with the financial cost of doing so. This is the
problem I am trying to address.
I believe that when barbed wire was first introduced to the west that
one of the sales pitches was that it was, "Cheap as dirt and strong as
whiskey." That's what I'm trying to go for here, a series of decks that
are as cheap as dirt (i.e. you can give away/trade cheap multiple decks
without costing yourself) but strong enough to hold up to a table or
more expensive decks.
The fact that you are going to be giving away multiple decks dictates
that any such deck adhere to certain parameters: it can't contain more
than a few copies of any given card- I drew the line at five; it can't
utilize cards that you wouldn't freely want to give away- so loading
up on majesties and voter caps in your venture deck is probably not a
good idea.
To solve these problems I have made deck primarily of rarely used Jyhad
cards and limited the deck size to 60 cards. I have endeavored to make
one deck from each clan. Here is the Nosferatu deck. Let me know what
you think.
Crypt
Sheldon - Lord of the Clog 9 Cap Justicar AUS POT ANI OBF for
Selma the Repugnant 8 Cap Prince POT OBF ani for
1 Extra Copy of Either Selma or Sheldon
Lucretia, Cess Queen 10 Cap Primogen ANI OBF pot aus for cel +1 Stealth
Marty Lechtansi 9 Primogen OBF DOM POT ani for, May pay 1 blood for 1
press
Chester DuBois 7 Primogen ANI POT for obf
Sammy obf pot ani
Agrippina OBF pot
Duck pot obf
Dimple obf
Koko pot
Either Hasina Kesi or Lupo
Master Cards 9
2xMinion Taps
Animalism
2xFortitude
4xPotence
Actions 4
2xArmy of Rats
Rapid Healing
Restoration
Poltical Actions 10
Disputed Territory
Ancient Influence
2xConsanguineous Boon
6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)
Action Modifers 8
3xBribes
2xLost in the Crowds
3xHidden Lurker
Combat 18
5xMighty Grapple
2xDrawing Out the Beast
2xGrowing Fury
2XThrown Gate
2xSkin of Steel
2xIndomitability
3xDisguised Weapon
Reaction 6
3xRat's Warning
3xCat's Guidance
Equipment/Retainers 5
2xWolf Companion
3xBlow Torch
Alias
!Nosferatu PCDs and add custom Nosferatu/!Nosferatu crypt. you will
have a really useful card pool including 4 Blood Dolls, 2 Disarms,
Fame, Nosferatu Kingdom, 6 Cat's Guidance, 6 Raven Spy, 6 Carrion
Crows, 4 Behind you!, 4 Taste of Vitae etc etc..you could build a
decent intercept combat deck, with little purchases here and there, it
could be useful for the newbie for a long time..
Preston
is $20 which is actually more expensive than dirt and the resulting
deck is not really any stronger than this one.
Don't get me wrong, 2 starters is a great way to go. I am just
providing an alternative here.
pd...@lightlink.com
>Crypt
>Sheldon - Lord of the Clog
>Lucretia, Cess Queen
>Marty Lechtansi
>Chester DuBois
>Sammy
>Agrippina
>Duck
>Dimple
>Koko
>Either
Keeping in mind your paramaters (i.e. pretty much only common cards,
not a lot of them, only Jyhad cards, not so much with the staples you
don't want to give away), some comments.
Don't use Lucretia. She is just bad. Put in a second Sheldon. And maybe
a second Selma. You have PA's, so you need votes. Maybe a crypt like:
2x Sheldon
2x Selma
2x Chester
1x Grendel
1x Sammy
1x Agripina
1x Duck
1x Koko
1x Hesina
That way you have half the crypt with Fortitude and votes, and the rest
of them smallish.
>Master Cards 9
>2xMinion Taps
>Animalism
>2xFortitude
>4xPotence
There are only, like, 6 Fortitude cards in the deck. Skip the fortitude
masters. Put in more Minion Taps. Or other pool gain (STI? Secret
Horde?) assuming Blood Doll isn't available.
>Actions 4
>2xArmy of Rats
>Rapid Healing
>Restoration
With the amount of combat available, these would probably be better all
replaced by Bum's Rush.
>Action Modifers 8
>3xBribes
>2xLost in the Crowds
>3xHidden Lurker
Hidden Lurker is bad. Even here. Give them more stealth.
>Combat 18
>5xMighty Grapple
>2xDrawing Out the Beast
>2xGrowing Fury
>2XThrown Gate
>2xSkin of Steel
>2xIndomitability
>3xDisguised Weapon
The Disguised Weapon angle, with only 3 of each, is a crap shoot at
best. Replace with more stealth. And the Growing Furys are just a slap
in the face. Undead Strength is preferable in every situation.
>Equipment/Retainers 5
>2xWolf Companion
>3xBlow Torch
Could the Wolf Companion become Raven Spies?
The Blow Torches are also probably better as Laptops.
-Peter
Preston
Thanks for your comments. My own experience has suggested that Hidden
Lurker is really good. As such, this is a Hidden Lurker deck. The
Wolf's Companions and Blow Torches and the lack of stealth and all are
geared towards people not wanting to block you because of Hidden
Lurker. In that case, Hidden Lurker is doing its job because people
don't want to block you. On the other hand, maybe they do block you, in
which case it's great there too. To take out the Hidden Lurkers is to
depart from my vision of this particular deck. But, hey, there's always
room for Barbed Wire Nosferatu Version 2. Let's see what that would
look like:
2x Sheldon
2x Selma
2x Chester
1x Grendel
1x Sammy
1x Agripina
1x Duck
1x Koko
1x Hesina
Master Cards 11
2xMinion Taps
2xBlood Doll
Animalism
4xPotence
2xHaven Uncovered
Actions
4xBum's Rush/Ambush/Harass
PA 10
Same
Action Modifiers 11
3xBribes
2xLost in the Crowds
2xSpying Mission
2xFaceless Night
2xCloak the Gathering
As for your comment on Growing Fury, Undead Strength is not better in
every situation. It's much better first round and not as good second
round. 5 Might Grappels, three Hidden Lurkers, and a couple of Drawing
Out the Beasts the deck does tend to see the second round. The idea
that the Disguised Weapons were a "crap shoot at best" sells them short
IMHO. In 60 cards I was getting them just fine, and one could always go
to 4 is one was really all that concerned.
But, here are the changes you recommend:
Combat 16
Shattering Blow
4xUndead Strength
4xMight Grapple
3xThrown Gate
2xIndomitability
2xSkin of Steel
Equipment 4
2xRaven Spy's
2xLab Top Computers
Reaction 8
4xCat's Guidance
4xRat's Warning
Something like that?
Preston
pd...@lightlink.com
>Thanks for your comments. My own experience has suggested that Hidden
>Lurker is really good.
Huh. What are you doing that makes folks want to block you? Certainly
in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
stealth, a foolish enterprise. But ok.
>As for your comment on Growing Fury, Undead Strength is not better in
>every situation. It's much better first round and not as good second
>round.
Yes. Literally, Growing Fury is better than US in the second round. But
in terms of actual playability the restriction (not usable on 1st
round) is *way* more costly than the benefit it provides (+1 damage).
There is a reason that it was never reprinted.
>5 Might Grappels, three Hidden Lurkers, and a couple of Drawing
>Out the Beasts the deck does tend to see the second round.
Sure. But having a Growing Fury in your hand instead of an US on the
first round, even if you might go to the second round, means you don't
get to hit *now*. The +1 damage just isn't worth it. Even with only
Jyhad commons.
>The idea that the Disguised Weapons were a "crap shoot at best" sells them short
>IMHO.
Ok. 60 cards, 3 copies each of a two card combo where card B of the
combo (i.e. the Disguised) is total dead weight in and of itself,
strikes me as crapshooty. But that might just be me.
In 60 cards I was getting them just fine, and one could always go
to 4 is one was really all that concerned.
>Something like that?
That looks much more viable.
-Peter
pd...@lightlink.com
>Thanks for your comments. My own experience has suggested that Hidden
>Lurker is really good.
Huh. What are you doing that makes folks want to block you? Certainly
in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
stealth, a foolish enterprise. But ok.
>As for your comment on Growing Fury, Undead Strength is not better in
>every situation. It's much better first round and not as good second
>round.
Yes. Literally, Growing Fury is better than US in the second round. But
in terms of actual playability the restriction (not usable on 1st
round) is *way* more costly than the benefit it provides (+1 damage).
There is a reason that it was never reprinted.
>5 Might Grappels, three Hidden Lurkers, and a couple of Drawing
>Out the Beasts the deck does tend to see the second round.
Sure. But having a Growing Fury in your hand instead of an US on the
first round, even if you might go to the second round, means you don't
get to hit *now*. The +1 damage just isn't worth it. Even with only
Jyhad commons.
>The idea that the Disguised Weapons were a "crap shoot at best" sells them short
>IMHO.
Ok. 60 cards, 3 copies each of a two card combo where card B of the
combo (i.e. the Disguised) is total dead weight in and of itself,
strikes me as crapshooty. But that might just be me.
In 60 cards I was getting them just fine, and one could always go
to 4 is one was really all that concerned.
>Something like that?
Preston
in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.
Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.
The idea that your vampires will go the game unblocked seems a little
silly to me, but if it works out that way, then this deck stands a
better chance of winning, AND it does so without the extra stealth
slots that would otherwise go unused.
As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons. To me, 3
and 3 seems to play about right. It also is a scare card- like hidden
lurker- that makes Dimple's bleed for one seem more meanacing. And,
hey, with only 2 Growing Furies in the deck, it's not like it's a ton
of dead weight.
The deck itself is really just out to bleed for the edge and call some
votes. It carrys the rest of the deck to provide a deterant from
blocking. Myself I would prefer to play the original deck more than
version 2, but either will serve the purpose of providing a newbie a
fun deck to play.
jeff...@pacbell.net
>
> Crypt
> Sheldon - Lord of the Clog 9 Cap Justicar AUS POT ANI OBF for
> Selma the Repugnant 8 Cap Prince POT OBF ani for
> 1 Extra Copy of Either Selma or Sheldon
> Lucretia, Cess Queen 10 Cap Primogen ANI OBF pot aus for cel +1 Stealth
> Marty Lechtansi 9 Primogen OBF DOM POT ani for, May pay 1 blood for 1
> press
> Chester DuBois 7 Primogen ANI POT for obf
> Sammy obf pot ani
> Agrippina OBF pot
> Duck pot obf
> Dimple obf
> Koko pot
> Either Hasina Kesi or Lupo
Crypt is fine. Uriah Winter? :)
> Master Cards 9
> 2xMinion Taps
> Animalism
> 2xFortitude
> 4xPotence
I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
whole lot.
> Actions 4
> 2xArmy of Rats
> Rapid Healing
> Restoration
I'd toss in a Rampage for good measure, even if you keep the Disputed
Territory.
> Poltical Actions 10
> Disputed Territory
> Ancient Influence
> 2xConsanguineous Boon
> 6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)
>
> Action Modifers 8
> 3xBribes
> 2xLost in the Crowds
> 3xHidden Lurker
I haven't followed your threads terribly closely, but Animal Magnetism
is also a common that may be appropriate.
> Combat 18
> 5xMighty Grapple
> 2xDrawing Out the Beast
> 2xGrowing Fury
> 2xThrown Gate
> 2xSkin of Steel
> 2xIndomitability
> 3xDisguised Weapon
I'd mix it up a little bit more. Perhaps 2 Thrown Sewer Lids for
variety.
> Reaction 6
> 3xRat's Warning
> 3xCat's Guidance
Guard Dogs are also good here.
> Equipment/Retainers 5
> 2xWolf Companion
> 3xBlow Torch
You should have at least 1 intercept retainer in here. If those Raven
Spies are scarce, use an Owl Companion instead. Flak Jackets also make
good filler for Equipment.
Jeff
Preston
Thanks for the feedback.
>
> > Master Cards 9
> > 2xMinion Taps
> > Animalism
> > 2xFortitude
> > 4xPotence
>
> I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
> make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
> Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
> Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
> to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
> whole lot.
Well keep in mind its a 60 card deck. 14 Master card is standard for a
90 card deck, and that would translate to 9 for a 60 card deck. Also, I
don't like Storm Sewers in general. How about this:
Master Cards 10
2xMinion Taps
Animalism
2xFortitude
4xPotence
Haven Uncovered
> I'd toss in a Rampage for good measure, even if you keep the Disputed
> Territory.
>
Hmm, OK. How about this.
Actions 3
Rampage
Restoration
Rapid Healing
> > Poltical Actions 10
> > Disputed Territory
> > Ancient Influence
> > 2xConsanguineous Boon
> > 6x(A mix of Kine Resources Contested and Conservative Agitation)
> >
> > >
> I haven't followed your threads terribly closely, but Animal Magnetism
> is also a common that may be appropriate.
>
OK. Well then, we could just say this.
Action Modifers 8
> > 3x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
> > 2xLost in the Crowds
> > 3xHidden Lurker
> > Combat 18
Shattering Blow
> > 5xMighty Grapple
> > 2xDrawing Out the Beast
> > 2xGrowing Fury
> > 2xThrown Gate
> > 2xSkin of Steel
> > 2xIndomitability
> > 2xDisguised Weapon
>
> I'd mix it up a little bit more. Perhaps 2 Thrown Sewer Lids for
> variety.
Hmm. I don't like the Sewer Lid here. This deck has no maneuvers. You
could hope that they maneuver, but 2 Sewer Lids in a 60 card decks
seems a bit much. I would just go with morr thrown gates then.
>
> > Reaction 6
> > 3xRat's Warning
> > 3xCat's Guidance
>
> Guard Dogs are also good here.
Yea. If one went with Guard Dogs one could throw in a Lid or two. But
they would have to go together.
>
> > Equipment/Retainers 5
> > 2xWolf Companion
> > 2xBlow Torch
Raven Spy
> You should have at least 1 intercept retainer in here. If those Raven
> Spies are scarce, use an Owl Companion instead. Flak Jackets also make
> good filler for Equipment.
>
> Jeff
Had to come down to 2 Disguised Weapons and 2 Blow Torches to fit it
all in. I will have to see how that plays.
Peter D Bakija
> So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.
Well, no, by the logic of the card, it is only good if they try and block
you.
> Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
> cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
> anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.
In a general sense, yeah, HL can occasionally be good at preventing folks
from blocking you. In a specific sense, I'm not seeing them being that
useful in thei particular deck.
> The idea that your vampires will go the game unblocked seems a little
> silly to me, but if it works out that way, then this deck stands a
> better chance of winning, AND it does so without the extra stealth
> slots that would otherwise go unused.
The deck has nothing that needs blocking. No one is going to block a bleed
of 1 if it means that your vampire gets beat to death. I suspect that the
deck in question (ya know, keeping in mind all the context) could go through
an entire game never being blocked and still not necessarily do all that
well. Making cards that only work when you are blocked not that useful.
> As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
> decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons.
Yeah, that isn't a good idea either, really.
> To me, 3
> and 3 seems to play about right. It also is a scare card- like hidden
> lurker- that makes Dimple's bleed for one seem more meanacing.
Ok then.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot,
easily spilled liquids to naked people."
-Brittni Meil
jeff...@pacbell.net
> Hey Jeff,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
> > > Master Cards 9
> > > 2xMinion Taps
> > > Animalism
> > > 2xFortitude
> > > 4xPotence
> >
> > I would strongly urge more Masters. I think probably every deck you
> > make ought to have some clan specific cards in it, and probably 1
> > Hunting Ground as appropriate. The Labyrinth is another "staple"
> > Nosferatu card and Storm Sewers is probably an uncommon you can afford
> > to part with. I know I have a ton of these and they're not worth a
> > whole lot.
>
> Well keep in mind its a 60 card deck. 14 Master card is standard for a
> 90 card deck, and that would translate to 9 for a 60 card deck. Also, I
> don't like Storm Sewers in general. How about this:
>
> Master Cards 10
> 2xMinion Taps
> Animalism
> 2xFortitude
> 4xPotence
> Haven Uncovered
I'd disagree with your 14/90 assessment. In a deck that cycles very
heavily, I could see that, but I don't see that from this deck. Sure
there are presses and such, but S:CE will probably thwart them on some
level since you're unlikely to use IG. Carrion Crows would be nice, but
those are a relatively premium card.
But back to Masters, I would use 12/60 if I were making the deck. 20%
is more "standard" from my perspective. I think it's important for new
players to actually have Masters to play. If nothing else, it makes
them feel like they're doing something and cycling cards. ;)
...specifics of deck snipped...
One thing this deck lacks is ousting power. I think it will do just
fine crushing vampires into torpor, but it needs more ways to get into
combat--bleeds for 1 and politics won't cut it. How about 1x Laptop
Computer and perhaps 1x Fame?
I think this strategy of "permanents" can also help with your
deckbuilding in general. Permanents are extremely important in
limited/sealed events and that also translates well for relatively
unfocused decks like those in the Barbed Wire Project. Plus, putting in
1x Laptop is a lot simpler when building decks than finding 4-6
Computer Hacking. :)
Good luck with the project in general. It's always good to see someone
looking out for new players.
Jeff
Preston
"Peter D Bakija May 25, 4:31 pm show options
Preston wrote:
> So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.
"Well, no, by the logic of the card, it is only good if they try and
block you."
And so is the stealh that you though was necessary to add.
> Agreed. Therefore, 3 Hidden Lurkers can take the place of 6 Stealth
> cards. If they don't try to block, then the stealth cards were dead
> anyway. If they do, then you pop'em.
In a general sense, yeah, HL can occasionally be good at preventing
folks
from blocking you. In a specific sense, I'm not seeing them being that
useful in thei particular deck. "
Look, if you want to say the deck needs more actions that are scary,
the those should be added. But pursuing a strategy of bruise in place
of stealth if perfectly fine, As such, Hidden Lurker is a fine
alternative to stealth cards and does so using fewer cards in this
deck. This deck has 6 votes that hit for 3 or more, plus a weenie bleed
or two every turn.
I am not arguing that the deck couldn't use a few more threats, but I
am saying that your are criticism of Hidden Lurker is employing to
situations with are mutually exclusive: either the deck posses a threat
such that your prey is tempted to block and EITHER stealth OR HL is a
good answer, or it does not. Saying, to replace HL with stealth because
HL is a bad card is poppycock and really diminshes the decks threat
potential by clogging it up with stealth cards.
Anyway, I'll see how the deck plays and what might could come out for a
labtop of two.
Preston
loading them up on Computer Hackings/Labtops & Stealth, because to me
it becomes a bad version of a sneak and bleed deck. To me, a properly
done Nos deck should have some element of Bleed Bruise or be a purely
political Stealth Vote deck. As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to
say "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.
To put in more labtops to this deck will require to cut some out of the
combat. I could take out the Disguised Weapon/Blow Torch, but in play
testing that has comboed nicely with Hidden Lurker- when comboed with
Drawing Out the Beast it can even burn the other minion.
Peter D Bakija
> And so is the stealh that you though was necessary to add.
Well, stealth lets you get things done that need to get done in a much more
reliable way than HL does--if you need to go, like, Diablerize someone's
Justicar, you are much better off with a Lost in Crowds now than a HL a few
turns ago that resulted in someone getting hit for 3 a few turns ago.
HL is, in theory, a viable "block avoider". But only if you can reliably
really whack someone if thy block you and you have HL in your hand--the
HL/Trap/Withering/Compress angle comes to mind. Again, I'm not losing track
of the context here (a playable deck for beginners made mostly out of Jyhad
commons), but with not *that* much combat and 3 HL's, really, it is a fringe
concept, at best. Especially in a deck that really needs to be able to Rush
folks to be able to defend itself. But in reality, this conversation has
gone way further than it has needed to.
Peter D Bakija
> A clarifaction point about my take on the Nos. In general, I avoid
> loading them up on Computer Hackings/Labtops & Stealth, because to me
> it becomes a bad version of a sneak and bleed deck. To me, a properly
> done Nos deck should have some element of Bleed Bruise or be a purely
> political Stealth Vote deck. As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to
> say "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
> the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.
Sure. But it is a risky plan overall--you need to have a very significant
card combo run to make it really pay off and especially in a kind of
"newbie" deck as presented, it isn't going to pay off that much, due to the
limited numbers of the necessary combo cards--most of the time, you'll have
a HL, someone will block you, and:
A. You won't have an untapped minion to use.
B. You won't have any scary combat to play.
In the unlikely event that you have both an untapped minion and scary combat
in your hand the first time someone blocks you, you might mangle someone and
scare them out of blocking again. But most of the time, not so much.
I understand where you are coming from in not wanting to make a bad S+B
deck. But to be really viable, a deck like this needs the ability to Rush
folks (i.e. a bunch of Bum's Rush) and be able to oust (which Laptops help).
Having the bruise element in there is good, but unless someone really has a
good reason to block you, they aren't going to block you--blocking a bleed
of 1 is never going to happen if blocking that bleed means you lose 1+ blood
off vampires, as it just isn't worth it (you bleed me for 1, I counter by
blood dolling off for 1).
Preston
Thanks again for your feedback. To facilitate this discussion, let me
break the deck out differently.
Combat Cards 18/60 or 30%
Shattering Blow
5xMighty Grapple
2xDrawing Out the Beast
2xGrowing Fury
2xThrown Gate
2xDisguised Weapon
2xWolf Companion
2xBlow Torch
Threats 8/60 or 13%
Rampage
Disputed Territory
6x(KRC/Conservative Aggitation)
Block Prevention 5/60 or 8.3%
2 Lost in the Crowds
3 Hidden Lurker
General Defense 11 or 18.3%
2xSkin of Steel
2xIndominability
3xCat's Guidance
3xRat's Warning
1xRaven Spy
Utility 18 or 30%
Restoration
Rapid Healing
2xCon Boon
Ancient Influence
2xMinion Tap
4xPotence
Animalism
Haven Uncovered
2xFortitude
3xBribes
As it stands, we have 30% of the cards in the deck are dedicated to
combat. To me that should make the Hidden Lurker and the Haven
Uncovered Pretty nasty, and if it doesn't then I think it means the
combat cards need to be reworked rather than removing the HL or Haven
because 30% seems like it should be enough. The deck is more defensive
and reactionary than offesive, with only 13% of the deck dedicated to
actual threats. But, if that needs to be improved, what to be cut?
The decks defense could be toned down a bit. One all of the fortitude
cards except for the two skin of steel- that would make room for 6
cards (including the master cards). Of those 6, 2 could be Havens
(which would bring it up to 3) and that wold allow to attack the
predator minions if they became to aggressive, and the other 4 could be
threat cards such as Labtops, and more votes. That would bring it up to
12 threat cards or 20%.
The reason I want to break things down this way is because it allows
one to say, for instance, that the precentage is fine but the specific
package needs to go, or whether there needs to be a shift in
percentage.
Alias
starters, you probably play in a VERY bizarre metagame. no offence.
Derek Ray
Hash: SHA1
Preston wrote:
| Peter,
|
| Thanks again for your feedback. To facilitate this discussion, let me
| break the deck out differently.
|
| Combat Cards 18/60 or 30%
| Shattering Blow
| 5xMighty Grapple
| 2xDrawing Out the Beast
| 2xGrowing Fury
These cards are absolute shit, really. Replace with Undead Strength or
Pushing the Limit; at least you have some hope of getting to use them in
that case.
Rule of thumb for combat: If you aren't killing them in round 1, your
combat sucks.
| 2xThrown Gate
| 2xDisguised Weapon
| 2xWolf Companion
| 2xBlow Torch
|
| Block Prevention 5/60 or 8.3%
| 2 Lost in the Crowds
| 3 Hidden Lurker
|
| As it stands, we have 30% of the cards in the deck are dedicated to
| combat. To me that should make the Hidden Lurker and the Haven
| Uncovered Pretty nasty, and if it doesn't then I think it means the
| combat cards need to be reworked rather than removing the HL or Haven
You don't understand what he's saying. Hidden Lurker is worthless if
nobody blocks you.
If your combat is too scary in comparison to the strength of the action,
nobody will block you.
If you look like you're a big stealth deck, nobody will block you (never
allow your predator to cycle stealth if you can't hope to block).
So nobody is likely to block this deck, no matter what, because the
worst it can do is bleed for 1, or get its KRCs voted down; even if it
can pass a KRC, it's not worth trying to block, because the Nossies are
always about "yeah, try to block me" in some fashion. This looks like
it makes Hidden Lurker equivalent to stealth, right? Except in two
crucial areas:
- - When you go to oust someone, using Hidden Lurker means the action
fails, and
- - Hidden Lurker uses two minion actions to (possibly) torporize one.
There's the additional disadvantage that the last minion to act in any
turn loses any benefit from Hidden Lurker.
- --
Derek
insert clever quotation here
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32)
iD8DBQFClclotQZlu3o7QpERAhSyAKDQZkG7IG0sWGdsSvn38yOnvXX0/gCbB9G+
rMLz8krShw4dAHxaFSPjkDM=
=PmZr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Preston
So glad to hear from you again.
"These cards are absolute shit, really. Replace with Undead Strength
or Pushing the Limit; at least you have some hope of getting to use
them in that case. Rule of thumb for combat: If you aren't killing
them in round 1, your combat sucks."
Putting in Undead Strength versus Mighty Grapple is not going to
magically allow you torporize in round 1 of combat. They can still
strike to end combat or dodge, etc. With the Mighty Grapple you get to
press to continue. Personally, I think it works better.
"You don't understand what he's saying. Hidden Lurker is worthless if
nobody blocks you."
And neither is stealth. Sure, stealth gives you the benefit of
proceeding unblocked, but, as you already mentioned, all you are going
on your last action is bleeding for one, or, more likely calling a vote
(which is at stealth anyway) or remaining untapped at the end of the
turn. Stealth is not particularly helpful in any of these situations
unless your prey happens to have one pool and you can bleed him out.
For those cases, there are two stealth cards.
I have noticed Derek that you seem to jump in on the threads where the
decks are more combat focused and criticize. The thing is, the
Nosferatu and the Gangrel are simply not going to be bleed monsters. I
try to work within the strengths of the card set, and that means the
Gangrel have to fight. For the Nos, they have the advantage of some
titled vamps, which I would have thought you would have been happy
about me including here.
So far your only real suggestion has been to change out some combat
cards. You complained about the lack of threats in this deck, but did
not recommend what to put in to make it more threatening.
Emmit Svenson
> As such, Hidden Lurker allows the deck to say
> "Don't block me" with fewer cards than stealth would require and
> the deck can use the extra room for either more combat or more threats.
The advantage of stealth over bruise is that if you're bruising, your
opponents will not hesitate to block actions that, if successful, will
be worse than losing the blocker.
If your opponents have chump blockers like weenie vampires, Jake
Washington or the like, the cost of blocking your action is relatively
low. Of course they will block your ousting bleed, your KRC/Con Ag,
your Rampage of their hunting ground. But since most of your actions
are pretty weak ("I bleed for one! I hunt!"), your opponents
shouldn't even throw their chumps in front of them. That's why we
suggest you either boost the threat value of your actions with Laptops
and so on or move in a more stealthy direction.
Metagames differ, but in these parts chump blockers are more common
than serious intercept, so stealth is more effective than bruise. Add
to that the problem that HL is fairly inefficient bruise (you tap two
minions and risk yourself in two combats to take a shot at beating up
one minion) and you can see why people are steering you away from the
card.
Why not replace it with Swallowed by the Night? That's a card that
does double duty as stealth and combat, and to the best of my knowledge
it was a common. Leather Jacket would also be useful in combination
with your Animalism intercept.
I would also suggest changing some of your votes. Ancient Influence
could be a dead card in your hand, and might help others far more than
yourself. Con Boon is great pool gain later in the game, but offers you
less in the beginning and doesn't give you any negotiating power with
cross-table titles. Why not replace them with the common Finding the
Path? That vote gives you a little offense and a little bloat at
stealth, and is useful even when you only have one minion.
Finally, I suggest you consider building mono- or duo-discipline decks
rather than clan-based decks for the Barbed Wire project. You can build
better decks with tighter crypts out of commons by focusing on a
discipline than you can focusing on a clan. Alternately, consider
building decks for the Independent clans, since the commons for them in
KMW are quite powerful (Tumminos, Waters of Duat, Web of Knives).
Xian
> Peter wrote:
> "Huh. What are you doing that makes folks want to block you? Certainly
> in this deck, there isn't much that needs to be blocked, and the
> Nosferatu have stealth anyway, making trying to block, unless you have
> stealth (I assume you mean intercept), a foolish enterprise. But ok."
>
> So, by your logic, Hidden Lurker is only good if they try to block you.
Actually, Hidden Lurker is only good if they SUCCEED in blocking you.
The thing about HL is that once it's been played, people stop trying to
block you until they get desperate. With stealth, they always think,
"well hey, he might have run out." With HL, they think, "well hey, he
might have another HL, in which case I really *don't* want to block."
With stealth, newbies at least, will continue to try to block, cycling
your hand. With HL, pretty much everyone stops blocking, resulting in
no hand cycling.
I believe what Peter was saying is that Hidden Lurker is best in decks
that don't plan on adding a lot more stealth.
> As for disguised weapon, it seemed to come up enough times. I see
> decklists at 90 cards where they have 1-2 concealed weapons. To me, 3
That 1-2 in 90 ratio is a total longshot. If you want to reliably get
Concealed/Disguised in 90 cards, you need approximately 8 CW/DW and 8
weapons to go along with it. Possibly more.
> The deck itself is really just out to bleed for the edge and call some
> votes. It carrys the rest of the deck to provide a deterant from
Some Computer Hackings couldn't hurt. They're always a good time.
> blocking. Myself I would prefer to play the original deck more than
> version 2, but either will serve the purpose of providing a newbie a
> fun deck to play.
And all of that, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.
Christian
Preston
Thanks for your feedback. I agree on the idea of focusing on one-two
discipline decks. With this deck I am trying to focus on Potence with a
bit of Animalism and a splash of Obfuscate. As sush, Swallowed by the
Nigth, while a good suggestion, doesn't seem to make the deck either
more threatening in its ousting power or really all that much better in
combat since few minions are going to have OBF.
If it would please those assembled here, what if I included 1 The
Labryrinth and 2 Labtop computers? Hmm, a bit of permastealth
permableed? Of course, what to take out in terms of percentage
allocation. Take it out of combat, utility, or defense?
As for your vote suggestion, as the deck stands it has some big guys in
it. 1 10 cap, and 2 9 caps with skill cards to make them 11 and 10 cap
vamps. With minions this big it needs to get some pool back, hense the
Ancient Influence and Minion taps. Just last night I was thinking about
"FInding the Path". Do you think it's strong enough to include?
I guess the question becomes, are we increaing the number of votes
above 10 or switching some out. Currently we have:
Ancient Influence
Disputed Territory
Con Boonx2
6xKRC/Con Boon
So, you are thinking of switching out the Ancient Influence and Con
Boons for Finding the Paths? Not a bad idea really. I'll try that.
As for making decks from other sets, I suppose I will get around to
that. I just have a lot of Jyhad cards and I feel that good decks can
be made from them. I wanted to start here.
Emmit Svenson
> I am trying to focus on Potence with a
> bit of Animalism and a splash of Obfuscate. As sush, Swallowed by
> the Nigth, while a good suggestion, doesn't seem to make the deck
> either more threatening in its ousting power or really all that
> much better in combat since few minions are going to have OBF.
Didn't you change your crypt to:
2x Sheldon
2x Selma
2x Chester
1x Grendel
1x Sammy
1x Agripina
1x Duck
1x Koko
1x Hesina ?
Half that crypt (Sheldon, Selma, Grendel, Agrippina), including 2/3 of
the minions with superior Potence, can play it as combat. 5/6 of that
crypt can play it as stealth on a killing bleed or vote. It'll be
handy.
> If it would please those assembled here, what if I included 1 The
> Labryrinth and 2 Labtop computers? Hmm, a bit of permastealth
> permableed? Of course, what to take out in terms of percentage
> allocation. Take it out of combat, utility, or defense?
Yes, that's good. I'd lose a discipline master to add the Labyrinth
and drop some of the iffy combat for the Laptops.
> As for your vote suggestion, as the deck stands it has some big
> guys in it. 1 10 cap, and 2 9 caps with skill cards to make them
> 11 and 10 cap vamps.
I guess you're keeping Lucrecia? Yeech.
The only skill card you can put on your 9-caps is your lone Animalism
master. And you can't play skill cards on Sheldon at all. So if you
get out a huge minion before you draw the Ancient Influence, and if you
draw the one skill card you can play on that minion before you play the
vote, you'll be *one* of the Methuselahs that benefits from it
most...but maybe your prey will be too. It's not a good bet,
especially since another player might call the vote, which saves you
the trouble and makes it a dead card.
> last night I was thinking about
> "FInding the Path". Do you think it's strong enough to include?
Finding the Path, like KRC and Con Ag, is a vote you can usually find
cross-table support for. I would also suggest a Parity Shift if you
have extra, since four of your vamps (Sheldon and Selma) can call it.
They're your largest vamps, so you're most likely to be in a
situation where you could call PS after influencing them, and it's
such a power play that a single discard if you don't influence them
is a price worth paying.
carl
"Xian" <xi...@visi.com> wrote
> Some Computer Hackings couldn't hurt. They're always a good time.
That increases the bleed of course, the HL is operating as a deterant.
For a trifling bleed of one, is tempting just to let it go (but watching
newbie pool sliding away which is hard to recover)
For a bleed of two it's worth a bit of a pounding to stop since vamps can
usually hunt even in lower level decks.
I don't know if a newbie would recognise the importance the HL threat or the
importance of card cycling.
But in low level game, not having the edge, little in the way of pool gain,
and a reduction in possibility of bringing out another vamp (as the pool
loss is greater than a few tiny bleeds) it's worth the whittle away.
But...the HL taps 2 vamps each time which give an opening for return
heavier-bleedsnd if the HL deck has inferior number of minions it can be
very hard to protect yourself at all. And the stealth bleeds so small and
card-reliant as to make a punishing retribution difficult.
Preston
Crypt
2xSelma the Repugnant
2xSheldon Lord of the Clog
1xChester Dubois
1x(Lucretia- Cess Queen or Marty Lechtansi)
Agrippina
Duck
Dimple
Koko
Sammy
Normal
Master 10
2xMinion Tap
Elder Library
The Barrens
The Labyrinth
2x Animalism
3x Short Term Investment
Political Actions 14
Disputed Territory
10x(A mix of Conservative Agitation and Kine Resources Contested)
3xFinding the Path/Parity Shift
Actions 2
2xThe Fourth Tradition: The Accounting
Action Modifers 14
6x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
8x(A mix of Lost in the Crowds/Cloak the Gathering/Forgotten
Lab/Faceless Night)
Combat 8
2x Shattering Blow
2x Skin of Steel
4x Disguised Weapon
Equipment 7
2x Laptop Computers
Lear Jet
4x(A mix of Blow Torch/Submachine Gun)
Reaction 5
3x Rat's Warning
2x Cat's Guidance
pd...@lightlink.com
>Crypt
>2xSelma the Repugnant
>2xSheldon Lord of the Clog
>1xChester Dubois
>1x(Lucretia- Cess Queen or Marty Lechtansi)
>Agrippina
>Duck
>Dimple
>Koko
>Sammy
>Normal
Good crypt, but I'd still just have a second Chester instead of Marty
or Lucrecia--a 7 cap is *much* better than a 9 or 10 cap, he has a
vote, and he has fortitude (the others do too, but they are just too
big to be useful, really, as a second string crypt choice).
>Master 10
>2xMinion Tap
>1xElder Library
>1x The Barrens
>1x The Labyrinth
>2x Animalism
>3x Short Term Investment
Very reasonable. Assuming no access to Blood Dolls, this is solid. Some
good permanents and some good pool gain.
>Political Actions 14
>Disputed Territory
>10x(A mix of Conservative Agitation and Kine Resources Contested)
>3xFinding the Path/Parity Shift
Whoah. Parity Shift is generous. Good, certainly. Nice inclusion.
Finding the path is bad. Use Parity Shift if you have them to give out.
With Parity Shifts in there, mixing in a Secret Horde for one of the
STIs is a good idea (to control your pool levels better, assuming you
can count well :-)
You could also mix a couple, like, Anarchist Uprising (or whatever the
VTES version is) in instead of a few KRC/Con Ag for spice and weenie
punishement--maybe like 4/4/2 would be a good mix. Maybe a Praxis
Seizure too, as most people have wayyy too many already.
>Actions 2
>2xThe Fourth Tradition: The Accounting
Nice.
>Action Modifers 14
>6x(A mix of Bribes and Animal Magnetism)
>8x(A mix of stealth)
Nice.
>Combat 8
>2x Shattering Blow
>2x Skin of Steel
>4x Disguised Weapon
Reasonable. Might want a couple more SoS, but ya know, whatever.
>Equipment 7
>2x Laptop Computers
>Lear Jet
>4x(A mix of Blow Torch/Submachine Gun)
Machine Gun is probably too expensive (the jump from 2 pool for a
Magnum to 4 pool for a Subgun is too much unless you have additional
strikes to make it pay off)--I'd just use Magnums. Heck, or .38's for
defensive technology, really. Blow Torch is good too.
>Reaction 5
>3x Rat's Warning
>2x Cat's Guidance
Good. This deck looks much more viable (given its environment) than the
previous one--significant ousting power, stealth, light combat, some
general defense. All in all, a good beginner deck with a nice focus.
-Peter
Preston
We had a certified beginner try this deck today instead of her usual
S&B deck. She swept the table (with some help from another player who
say out and explained all the cards). I just wanted to thank everyone
for their help. This deck turned out well.
Cheers,
Preston
Peter D Bakija
Right on!