Rules Team Rulings 01-MAY-2000

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LSJ

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
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The new erratum below applies to all official V:EKN tournaments as
of June 1, 2000 (The standard delay for new errata). Judges are
free to use it before that time, provided they ensure that the
players are aware of the new errata before the tournament.


ERRATA

Life Boon doesn't provide a VP if you are ousted.
Since (as a master card) it is burned when you are ousted, this
makes some sense, but it is still errata to change the "even if
you are ousted by then" to "unless you are ousted by then".
Note: this means that you cannot get a VP for your own ousting -
you will be ousted (and Life Boon's effect will terminate)
before you can collect.

RULINGS

An individual Priscus is not tainted by the result of the Prisci
sub-referendum. (This only matters for cards like Bribes and Scorn
of Adonis that care which way individual minions voted.) A Priscus
is considered to have voted "for" or "against" (or to have
abstained from) the main referendum based on how he cast his
vote(s) in the sub-referendum, regardless of the result of that
sub-referendum. For example, if the Prisci sub-referendum is for
the main referendum and Scorn of Adonis was played, the controller
of a Priscus who voted against the sub-referendum would still
lose a pool as a result of Scorn of Adonis. This is a reversal of
a previous ruling.

Banishment should be more consistent. That is, Banished vampires
"remember" everything, just like contested vampires do. Additionally,
cards on Banished vampires (both Master cards and Minion cards) are
out of play and do not contest (just as the Banished vampire himself
is out of play does not contest). This ruling applies to all methods
of moving a vampire in play to the uncontrolled region (incl. The
Peace of Khetamon). Examples: gained or lost titles will still be
gained/lost when the vampire is returned to the controlled region,
and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of the
vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled. This reverses some
previous rulings.

In a similar vein, leaving play (via Contesting, Banishement, or
whatever) is ruled/errata'ed to break any lingering *temporary*
change-of-control effects (like Mind Rape, Malkavian Dementia, and
Temptation), but not any permanent change-of-control effects (like
Grave Robbing and Corruption). So a demented Malkavian who is
Banished would be placed in his permanent controller's uncontrolled
region - not in the uncontrolled region of the Methuselah who
played Malkavian Dementia.

Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
match the general ruling.

Superior Terror Frenzy ("Opposing minion pays an additional blood
when playing combat cards") doesn't affect allies (unless the
ally is playing a card "as a vampire", in which case he pays the
additional blood in life, as directed on his card). The effect is
ruled to be a "burn blood" effect, and allies are immune to
burn blood effects in general.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

Sorrow

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
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> Banishment should be more consistent. That is, Banished vampires
> "remember" everything, just like contested vampires do. Additionally,
> cards on Banished vampires (both Master cards and Minion cards) are
> out of play and do not contest (just as the Banished vampire himself
> is out of play does not contest). This ruling applies to all methods
> of moving a vampire in play to the uncontrolled region (incl. The
> Peace of Khetamon).

How is this different from what Banishment was ruled to work like
after the last RTR on the card?

> Examples: gained or lost titles will still be gained/lost when the vampire
> is returned to the controlled region,

This is nothing new, I don't think...

> and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of the
> vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled.

Excuse me?
So a 5 cap vamp with, say, 5 Discipline cards on it gets Banished with
0 blood. It is only going to cost 5 to bring that vamp back into play?

> In a similar vein, leaving play (via Contesting, Banishement, or
> whatever) is ruled/errata'ed to break any lingering *temporary*
> change-of-control effects (like Mind Rape, Malkavian Dementia, and
> Temptation), but not any permanent change-of-control effects (like
> Grave Robbing and Corruption). So a demented Malkavian who is
> Banished would be placed in his permanent controller's uncontrolled
> region - not in the uncontrolled region of the Methuselah who
> played Malkavian Dementia.

This is just further clarification with regards to Banishment above, yes?
And is nothing new? If it is new, it doesn't sound that way.

> Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
> by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
> something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
> a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
> match the general ruling.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it ruled to work this way some
time ago? This doesn't sound like a new ruling.

Sorrow
---
"Are they dead?" - Pugsly
"Does it matter?" - Wednesday

Noal McDonald

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
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"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote:
>> Banishment should be more consistent. That is, Banished vampires
>> "remember" everything, just like contested vampires do. Additionally,
>> cards on Banished vampires (both Master cards and Minion cards) are
>> out of play and do not contest (just as the Banished vampire himself
>> is out of play does not contest). This ruling applies to all methods
>> of moving a vampire in play to the uncontrolled region (incl. The
>> Peace of Khetamon).
>
> How is this different from what Banishment was ruled to work like
> after the last RTR on the card?

Actually quite a bit as the cumulative errata on Banishment left a
lot of loopholes. The problem was that the errata didn't say what
people thought it did. Now it does. The two biggest changes are:

1) State effects like political titles were reset to original card
text. For example, if Don Cruez yielded his Brujah Justicar title
due to contestation and then was Banished, previously his title would
be regained when he came back out. Conversely, if Agrippina become
Prince of Seattle from a Praxis Seizure vote and was later Banished,
she would lose her title. This ruling changes that by stating that
all state effects, counters, etc. that were on the vampire before it
became uncontrolled remain intact when it comes back out.

2) Master cards on the Banished vampire were still considered
controlled and in play. Therefore, they could be contested, stolen,
etc. Now all master cards on the vampire (ie., Depravity) not just
pointing to it (i.e., The Rack) are also considered out of play and
uncontrolled and may not be contested or otherwise affected.

>> Examples: gained or lost titles will still be gained/lost when
>> the vampire is returned to the controlled region,
>
> This is nothing new, I don't think...

As noted above, this is new.

>> and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of
>> the vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled.
>
> Excuse me? So a 5 cap vamp with, say, 5 Discipline cards on it
> gets Banished with 0 blood. It is only going to cost 5 to bring
> that vamp back into play?

This didn't bother me too much. Quite frankly, Banishment is a
ridiculously powerful card for its cost. Anybody who's been on the
business end of one of my many Banishment decks can attest to that.
Overt text change won't make anybody happy and subtle changes like
this one bring it down a bit, while still retaining the integrity of
the card. This change, for instance, means the target plays less
pool to bring out the vampire.

>> In a similar vein, leaving play (via Contesting, Banishement, or
>> whatever) is ruled/errata'ed to break any lingering *temporary*
>> change-of-control effects (like Mind Rape, Malkavian Dementia, and
>> Temptation), but not any permanent change-of-control effects (like
>> Grave Robbing and Corruption). So a demented Malkavian who is
>> Banished would be placed in his permanent controller's uncontrolled
>> region - not in the uncontrolled region of the Methuselah who
>> played Malkavian Dementia.
>
> This is just further clarification with regards to Banishment above,
> yes? And is nothing new? If it is new, it doesn't sound that way.

This isn't really new. However, I don't recall this ever issued as an
official RT Ruling, but rather as an LSJ ruling. Mostly just
confirmation, I suppose.

>> Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
>> by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
>> something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
>> a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
>> match the general ruling.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it ruled to work this way some
> time ago? This doesn't sound like a new ruling.

No. Previous errata stated that combat ended with no further effect.
This is a reversal of that errata.

All in all, I'm quite pleased with the errata.

Noal McDonald
Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI
National Jyhad League
--
"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
-- Socrates


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

LSJ

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
to
Sorrow wrote:
>
> > Banishment should be more consistent. That is, Banished vampires
> > "remember" everything, just like contested vampires do. Additionally,
> > cards on Banished vampires (both Master cards and Minion cards) are
> > out of play and do not contest (just as the Banished vampire himself
> > is out of play does not contest). This ruling applies to all methods
> > of moving a vampire in play to the uncontrolled region (incl. The
> > Peace of Khetamon).
>
> How is this different from what Banishment was ruled to work like
> after the last RTR on the card?

Before: Banished vampires "rememdered" only: the blood on them, the
cards on them (and, in a subsequent ruling, counters on cards on them).
Other effects (like gained/lost titles) were forgotten. Master cards
on the uncontrolled vampire remained controlled (and could be contested,
counted toward capacity in the case of skill cards, etc) while minion
cards were "out of play" while the vampire remained in the uncontrolled
region.

Now: Everything is remebered (parallel to the contested case). And
all cards on the out-of-play card are out of play.

> > Examples: gained or lost titles will still be gained/lost when the vampire
> > is returned to the controlled region,
>
> This is nothing new, I don't think...

This is new.

> > and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of the
> > vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled.
>
> Excuse me?
> So a 5 cap vamp with, say, 5 Discipline cards on it gets Banished with
> 0 blood. It is only going to cost 5 to bring that vamp back into play?

Right. Since the master cards are out of play, they don't contribute
to the vampire's capacity (until he comes back into play).

> > In a similar vein, leaving play (via Contesting, Banishement, or
> > whatever) is ruled/errata'ed to break any lingering *temporary*
> > change-of-control effects (like Mind Rape, Malkavian Dementia, and
> > Temptation), but not any permanent change-of-control effects (like
> > Grave Robbing and Corruption). So a demented Malkavian who is
> > Banished would be placed in his permanent controller's uncontrolled
> > region - not in the uncontrolled region of the Methuselah who
> > played Malkavian Dementia.
>
> This is just further clarification with regards to Banishment above, yes?
> And is nothing new? If it is new, it doesn't sound that way.

Temporary control effects were broken by Banishment previously
as part of the things that a Banished vampire "forgot". So this
ruling, while necessary under the new "remember everything" rule
for Banishment, results in nothing new for Banishment (although it
*is* something new for contested cards).

> > Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
> > by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
> > something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
> > a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
> > match the general ruling.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it ruled to work this way some
> time ago? This doesn't sound like a new ruling.

No, this is a new ruling.

The discrepancy between Illusions and the general rule was pointed
out, but no change was made (until now) so that the RT could
review the issue.

rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

unread,
May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
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Could you please clarify how the Banishment/Master Card Ruling affects
excess blood?

In article <390D7B45...@white-wolf.com>,
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> RULINGS


>
> Banishment should be more consistent.
>

> Examples: gained or lost titles will still be
> gained/lost when the vampire is returned to the controlled region,

> and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of the

> vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled. This reverses some
> previous rulings.

Question 1:
If my Banished vampire has more blood than his base capacity (due to
discipline cards) Is the excess immeadiately lost to the Blood Bank or
do I have until the end of my (next) influence phase to deal with
(transfer back) this pool?

Question 2:
Which effect at the end of the influence phase happens first... The
master discipline cards take effect or excess pool runs off of the
vampire? If the answer is that they happen simultaneously, then
shouldn't I be able to let my banished vampire with the excess blood pop
back into play without a pool loss penalty?

Thanks,

Rob Grau
rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

LSJ

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00
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rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu wrote:
> Could you please clarify how the Banishment/Master Card Ruling affects
> excess blood?

"excess blood" is a concept reserved for controlled vampires.

Uncontrolled vampires do not worry about "excess", but rather,
will move to the controlled region (becoming controlled) at
the end of your influence phase if the number of blood counters
on them is "equal to or exceeds" their capacity. (At which time,
being controlled, they will have to start worrying about
"excess" blood.)

> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Examples: gained or lost titles will still be
> > gained/lost when the vampire is returned to the controlled region,
> > and Master discipline cards do not contribute to the capacity of the
> > vampire while he (and they) are uncontrolled. This reverses some
> > previous rulings.
>
> Question 1:
> If my Banished vampire has more blood than his base capacity (due to
> discipline cards) Is the excess immeadiately lost to the Blood Bank or
> do I have until the end of my (next) influence phase to deal with
> (transfer back) this pool?

It is not lost.
You have until the end of your next influence phase to manipulate
the blood total on the vampire via transfers. If, at the end of
your influence phase, the vampire still has blood on him equal to
or exceeding his (uncontrolled) capacity, he will become controlled.
Once controlled, the discipline cards will become controlled again.
At that time, if he *still* has blood on him in excess of his
(controlled) capacity, then the excess will drain off.

> Question 2:
> Which effect at the end of the influence phase happens first... The
> master discipline cards take effect or excess pool runs off of the
> vampire?

Simultaneous. When the vampire is controlled, the skill cards are
controlled.

> If the answer is that they happen simultaneously, then
> shouldn't I be able to let my banished vampire with the excess blood
> pop back into play without a pool loss penalty?

Yes, since he has "excess" blood.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

Tammy, Chris, and Alex Shorb

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00
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This new ruling seems like a way to gird minion your vamp during your
influence phase, if you banish yourself. Interesting, but can we base
a deck around it?

Chris

--
Tammy Shorb 5'7"
Alexander Shorb 2'10"
Chris Shorb 5'11"
Shameless plug:
<http://www.graphicnovels.com/>

Sorrow

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00
to
> This new ruling seems like a way to gird minion your vamp during your
> influence phase, if you banish yourself. Interesting, but can we base
> a deck around it?

Or better yet:

Have the Info Highway out.
Minion Tap Vamp A for X
Vamp A 5th's, Freak Drives (or untaps another way)
Vamp B Acts
Vamp A Banishes Vamp B who as Y skill cards and X+Y blood
(where X is Vamp B's capacity)

During your Influence Phase, pull up to (3 or Y) blood back into
your pool. Vamp B moves into your Ready reagion ready to
react.

Interesting, but a little convoluted...

Noal McDonald

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00
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"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote:
> Have the Info Highway out.
> Minion Tap Vamp A for X
> Vamp A 5th's, Freak Drives (or untaps another way)
> Vamp B Acts
> Vamp A Banishes Vamp B who as Y skill cards and X+Y blood
> (where X is Vamp B's capacity)
>
> During your Influence Phase, pull up to (3 or Y) blood back
> into your pool. Vamp B moves into your Ready reagion ready
> to react.

*nods*
The most you could gain from this scenario would be 3 extra blood per
Banished vampire...and that's _only_ if you have the Info Highway or
Ingrid Rossler (4 if you have both) and have at least 3 Master
Discipline cards on the vampire being Banished.

To be honest, I'd be surprised if you could make a deck that could get
this to work reliably or fast enough to be tournament viable. Too much
dependency on master cards and votes and the set up time would take
forever. If someone would like to prove me wrong...

Noal


--
"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
-- Socrates

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