OLD Portsmouth Tournament report.
Legbiter
The sanctioned tournament in Portsmouth, England was held on Saturday the
16th of May and was BRILLIANTLY successful. 18 people actually turned up -
20 was the maximum possible, 19 were preregistered but Sarah Newbury went
to the beach and Ralph Plowman watched the FA cup final. Able organisation
was provided by John of Second Byte and Matt Green of Wizards made sure we
didn't cheat too blatantly. Enormous quantities of a peculiar
straw-coloured vitae were consumed, everyone got prizes and quite a few
people got drunk as rats.
Here are the names of the vile minions of darkness who actually took part,
and the victory points they had accumulated at the end of the first round
of three games each:
Robert Shread 0
Michael Beer 9
William Lee 3
Rob Treasure 8
Mark Baxter 4
James Lewis 0
Jon Cooper 4
Garry Scarlett 1
Marc White 3
John Keech 1
Steve Cantlow 1
Legbiter [James McClellan] 1
Mike Burns 0
John Barber 5
James Coupe 4
Barny Baker 3
Andrew Sparkes 0
Steve Wright 7
Michael Beer's Fast Presence bleed deck and Rob Treasure's Pander vote
deck were VERY impressive in the first round so it was something of a
surprise when the final ended as follows:
John Barber 0
Mark Baxter 0
Rob Treasure 1
Michael Beer 1
Steve Wright 3
Steve Wright is thus not only the tallest Jyhad player in England but the
champion of Portsmouth, at least until our next run-in which will probably
occur in about 6 weeks' time [date uncertain because we want to avoid
clashing with world cup matches]. Well done Steve! Not bad for someone who
got Nul Points in Praxis Seizure: Isle of Wight! Here is his winning deck:
CRYPT [12 vampires]:
Natasha Volfchek
Arika
Democritus
2 Sir Walter Nash
Mustafa Rahman
Luccia Paciola
Ranjan Rishi
Violette Prentiss
Emerson Bridges
Gideon Fontaine
Rufina Soledad
LIBRARY [90 cards]:
24 MASTERS:
Rumour Mill
Elysium
KRCG News Radio
2 Dominate
Elder Library
Sudden Reversal
Information Highway
The Rack
Ventrue HQ
Major Boon
Uptown HG
Blood Doll
Golconda
2 Hostile Takeover
2 Minion Tap
Parthenon
Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Tomb of Rameses the Cheesemonger
Direct Intervention
2 EQUIPMENT:
Sport Bike
Soul Gem of Etrius
14 COMBAT:
2 Zip Guns
Skin of Steel
Pulled Fangs
Skin of Rock
4 Majesty
2 Dragon's Breath Rounds
Catatonic Fear
13 POLITICAL ACTIONS:
Rumours of Gehenna
Ventrue Justicar
Consanguineous Boon
Praxis: Solomon
Banishment
Praxis Seizure: Geneva
4 Kine Resources Contested
Disputed Territory
Ancilla Empowerment
Protect Thine Own
9 ACTIONS:
2 Fifth Tradition
3 Govern the Unaligned
2 Mind Rape
Rapid Healing
13 REACTIONS:
Second Tradition
5 WWEF
4 Deflection
Elder Intervention
Kindred Coercion
Obedience
15 MODIFIERS:
2 Aire of Elation
2 Bonding
Seduction
Awe
Day Operation
Voter Captivation
2 Kiss of Ra
Dawn Operation
The Sleeping Mind
Bewitching Oration
2 Conditioning
No allies or retainers whatsoever.
Interestingly, Steve's deck is almost a 4CL affair .... and clearly could
be made 4CL by the simple expedient of replacing one of the WWEFs with
another Second Tradition. It worked essentially because whenever people
tried things against it Steve had a counter. Example: I tried a
cross-table Bum's rush. He Direct-Intervention'd it.
I know a lot of people reading this will wonder why it wasn't combated to
death. At least three combat decks with the ability to harm it were in
play in the first rounds - but two of them were fighting each other at the
only table where Steve was also playing. Interestingly, while the final
was going on we had a runners-up match which was dominated by two combat
decks [William Lee [Assamite] 3, Legbiter [Weenie/Jimmy Dunn/Beast] 2,
Gangrel/Ventrue vote-and-bleed deck 1].
So why didn't the combat decks make it to the final? In my case
incompetence is the basic answer, ameliorated to some extent by bad draws
at the start [no Beast at all in my first two games, despite having three
in my crypt]. I cocked up a game-winning Fame/Rush combo by forgetting to
acquire the Edge first, badly mishandled the minor discipline in my deck
[animalism for DotB, Raven and Cat's Guidance], and gave away another game
by backing a vote which ousted my weak predator [not a weak player, I
hasten to add, just that his vampires had been visited rather more often
than was good for them by Beast]. William Lee's Assamite deck was a bit
short of mechanisms for getting into combat, so perhaps there are issues
about deck-design too.
But I think the real reason is that combat decks as we currently have them
are just too slow for tournament play [except, clearly, in Ithaca - though
I think that might have been a special case as the tournament was smaller
than ours - everyone knows that combat decks win small games!]. In my
opinion, the circumstances under which a combat deck can win at a large
tournament are really quite restricted - for example if there are two
combat decks at a table and they are NOT predator and Prey initially [as
was the case in the runners-up game]. Essentially, the problem is that
although a combat deck can bugger up any one or even two Methuselahs at
the table, its owner is NOT the only beneficiary of this - typically, your
grand-predator or grand-prey benefits more than you do, especially because
it often takes a combat deck an unacceptably long time to actually oust
its prey.
Michael Beer and I talked a lot about this topic after the match, and we
reckon that a Fast Rush deck really has to take multiple actions and/or
multipurpose actions to win at tournament level. I already had the Weenie
Fame/Bum's-rush-and-press combo to do this, but it wasn't enough. So I'm
going to build a Pot/Cel/For deck that uses Freak Drive to get the extra
actions and Kiss of Ra, Force of Will, Fame and Day Op to give it extra
speed in prey-ousting. A key vamp in this deck is Wynn, others are Jimmy
Dunn and Angus the Gangrel Justicar. Given enough Freak Drives, Wynn could
kill up to 5 vampires a turn [intrinsic attack, Bum's Rush, Ambush, Haven
Uncovered and Blood Hunt], Diablarise somebody and then Force of Will/Fame
to bleed for 6. Michael and I think a viable alternative might be a
political combat deck - either in the game sense [Volker, Sela, Rake and
Kendrick] or in the sense of doing a lot of negotiation with other players
at the table ["hurt me and I'll kill you, hurt my prey and I'll help
you"].
After the match Andrew Sparkes [excellent player BTW - 0 points reflects
the fact that he played with my poorly-designed Tzimisce deck], Michael
Beer and I watched Deep Impact at the flicks - good film! - and next day
we played lots of Jyhad [sealed deck - Legbiter 6 Beer 2] and cricket
[Legbiter 12 n.o, Beer c&b Legbiter 3 [spectacular running catch off own
bowling]]. In the evening before he caught the ferry Michael also showed
me his new "fun" deck which we tested against a fast-bleed affair. I'm not
going to tell you what the deck is except to say that Michael has come up
with a VERY clever new combo which really has the potential to shut down a
range of fast decks very effectively. It certainly scared the shit out of
me in the two games we played.
Anyway, thanks to all who played and helped with the organisation, and
special thanks to Michael Beer for coming all the way from Dortmund to
play with us. The last time someone from Germany caused this amount of
havoc on the South Coast he was driving a Ju88! We very much enjoyed
meeting you, and look forward to having you back - Auf Wiedersehn!
ber...@cco.caltech.edu
My personal solution to this is bruise and bleed. Unfortunately, this seems
to mean that all decks require either Dominate or Presence, but such is the
price of competition. Another, slower means of dealing with it is to include
J.S. Simmons, Tasha Morgan, Laptops and Computer Hacking. At least these are
disciplineless.
But, I believe that a good Brujah bruise and bleed would work pretty well.
Here's my take on it: Load up on Legal Manipulations. Since you don't expect
most of your bleeds to get through, the blood cost doesn't matter. Also, a
bunch of Aire of Elation. If you do get through, you want maximum punch.
Next, you need your average Brujah combat. IG in bucketloads, Torn Signpost,
Pushing the Limits, perhaps Taste of Vitae. Always Acrobatics, and perhaps a
few Blur. Don't worry about burning vamps. As long as he spends most of his
turns rescuing and hunting, you can bleed unscathed. Rapid Thought (is that
the one? the one that lets you choose your attack second) could be quite
useful in this deck, especially since it's a Flash at inferior. Include a few
Dread Gaze for political defense and some Haven Uncovereds for bleed defense.
Other than that, just bleed fast and hit hard.
Since bleeding is the most basic way to oust your prey, it seems obvious that
a good combat deck should try to bleed. The only thing you really have to
worry about is Deflections, and there's not much you can do about that, other
than punch the guy who plays the Deflection. Is there anybody besides me who
is plain-old pissed off by Deflection/Telepathic Misdirection?
Other combat decks with the bleed angle added in:
Assamites: just plain suck. Don't use them in any deck. Can't bleed.
Caitiff: horde bleed with Zip Gun/DBR
Gangrel: Plenty of Gangrels with dom. Either that or use disciplineless.
Add Form of Mist for when you know S:CE is coming.
Giovanni/Lasombra: The two clans appparently made for bruise and bleed.
Lasombra have the edge in combat due to Obt.
Malk: Disguised Weapons in the extreme. Still inferior to Malk S&B.
Nos: Scouting Mission plus disciplineless bleed. As the premiere combat
clan, the Nos have to suffer a little in the bleed department.
Ventrue: My favourite. Trap with Superior Mettle and Undead Persistance.
A few weapons and FOR for maneuvers and presses.
Does not do well against Tremere.
-Chris
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James Coupe
In article <6jpr10$m4f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ber...@cco.caltech.edu
writes
>Since bleeding is the most basic way to oust your prey, it seems obvious that
>a good combat deck should try to bleed. The only thing you really have to
>worry about is Deflections, and there's not much you can do about that, other
>than punch the guy who plays the Deflection. Is there anybody besides me who
>is plain-old pissed off by Deflection/Telepathic Misdirection?
>
Yes. I'm pissed off with it. I had several in my hand during the final
round of Portsmouth which would have been so much better if they'd been
other useful cards and I couldn't get rid of them. Was a generally bad
draw tho.
But on a more serious note... they're fine cards which can get abusive
in large quantities but the only thing they really hit hard are the
bleed decks so it's an incentive to play politics, swarm (hit them
faster than they can bounce), combat or whatever if you can't guarantee
it. And Change of Target would be useful if your grand-prey (or
whoever) blocks.
>Other combat decks with the bleed angle added in:
>Assamites: just plain suck. Don't use them in any deck. Can't bleed.
Not really, no, they can't. However, a few Night Moves here and there
can get you the edge (just to stop your prey keeping it and it's a one
point bleed whatever).
>Caitiff: horde bleed with Zip Gun/DBR
Yawn. But funny to watch tho.
>Gangrel: Plenty of Gangrels with dom. Either that or use disciplineless.
> Add Form of Mist for when you know S:CE is coming.
Force of Will, of course. And Freak Drives. The Freaky Gangrel deck is
okay but boring. Juts playing it with bleed (and not the fame) wouldn't
be quite so boring. Form of Mist - well, the problem here is that
you're likely acting so you have to declare strikes first. If you play
it then they won't play there's (although you do get to continue at +1
stealth). A dog pack and a Heidelburg would be nice but expensive as
hell and Gangrel aren't too hot on pool regeneration.
>Giovanni/Lasombra: The two clans appparently made for bruise and bleed.
> Lasombra have the edge in combat due to Obt.
Well, I like the Giovanni as well because they have two cards. One -
Spiritual Intervention (the S:Dodge/S:CE one). And also, they have
Torment the Soul. Aggro damage. Hehe.
I tend to play Gio/Las crosses if I play them but the problem there is
then it's difficult to have things like Hunting Grounds and other clan
specific cards (do I go for the Mausoleum or do I go for the Political
Struggle to get my votes.....?)
>Malk: Disguised Weapons in the extreme. Still inferior to Malk S&B.
I like that a lot. It's good fun. Either that or a few .44 Magnums or
Zip Guns-DBR or something like that which means you don't have to do
quite so much bleeding or have enough DWs to guarantee them in combat
but for good permanents like the Guns (as opposed to Grenades which I
like using) you won't need more than couple so it gets odd.
>Nos: Scouting Mission plus disciplineless bleed. As the premiere combat
> clan, the Nos have to suffer a little in the bleed department.
Well, I think you'll have a dispute on your hands over the premiere
combat clan :) However, they can be good. A few retaines here and
there if necessary, IG, Burning Wrath... something like that could burn
a few vampires easily. And a Hidden Lurker or three for fun. But
obviously, other clans have just as much fun in combat as the Nosferatu
(the Gangrel not being the least of them....)
>Ventrue: My favourite. Trap with Superior Mettle and Undead Persistance.
> A few weapons and FOR for maneuvers and presses.
> Does not do well against Tremere.
Doesn't do well against Tremere but Ventrue don't do well in combat
fullstop. If you can keep it at close range (difficult at best, though
a few IR Goggles might help if you can get them out and then a few
Fortitude cards for maneuvers might help it along) then you get to have
the ultra cheese of Skin of Rock/Steel followed up by Pulled Fangs.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
James Hamblin
I'm not going to try to pick and choose from the messages in this thread,
but the main question seems to be:
How does a rush deck oust people, since it can only bleed for one?
But, this is the same question that has been hashed and rehashed before:
how does a rush deck win?
The answer to the first question, in my opinion, is simple. You only need
to bleed for one. If your prey wants to stay in the game, they'll keep
making new vampires, which you subsequently kill. If they make an 8-point
vampire which you kill, you've really bled them for 8. If they don't make
any new vampires, just bleed for one a lot, while keeping enough pressure
on your predator so that _they_ don't kill you.
Winning with a rush deck takes a lot of finesse (sp?). If you really want
to have some bleed potential, I've found have the +1 bleed retainers or
vampires with +1 bleed built in more effective and card-efficient than
bleed action cards. For example, in my Anti-Brujah deck, Sela is one of
the more effective vampires (a) because she's broken as hell and (2)
because she's got +1 bleed. I have two Enchant Kindred in my deck, and I
use those more often to get the two pool (who's going to block me?) than
to bleed for +1.
That's actually a good point that maybe isn't made often enough. You can
play your deck with the "if you block me, I'll kill you" mentality without
being a bruise-bleed deck. Take those (D) actions to burn or steal from
pesky locations. Even if you don't have a royal flush in your hands, once
you Decapitate a couple minions, the other players are likely to give you
a wide berth.
James
--
ham...@math.wisc.edu
PDB6
Chris wrote:
"Since bleeding is the most basic way to oust your prey, it seems obvious that
a good combat deck should try to bleed."
As James pointed out, what makes a Rush combat deck work is not that it tries
to bleed, but that it completely demolishes every vampire its prey brings into
play. They keys to making a good, viable combat deck are:
1) Use small vampires. The smaller the crypt, the more vampires you get out
for less pool, and the more actions you take. As a good combat deck can take
out a much larger vampire with a small one (I regularly kill much larger
vampires with the likes of Hesina Kessi and KoKo), having 4 or 5 small vampires
out means that you will get to attack many vampires a turn and still get to
bleed a bit.
2) Be a consistent killer. Dont water down your deck with bleed modifiers or
stealth or intercept or anything of the sort if you want to have a truly
sucessful pure Rush deck. You won't need to block if you kill all of your
potential threats pre-emtively, and you won't get blocked if you kill all your
opponents blockers. Cards that are not combat cards may help you
occasioanally, but most of the time you will wish you had a needed combat card.
Drawing a Conditoning when you really need an Immortal Grapple will screw a
Rush deck far more than not having the Conditioning in the first place. Don't
get me wrong, Bruise-Bleed decks are perfectly viable and competetive, they are
just a different deck type than a Rush deck. BB decks win by bleeding their
prey, using combat as a threat to deter blocking. Rush decks win by destroying
every vampire its prey brings into play.
3) Have enough Rush to get into combat often. 12 Bums Rushs and 4 Havens are
acceptable for a 90 card deck. Less, and you will often not have what you need
to get into a fight, and no one is going to block your bleeds of one, meaning
that you will have horible hand jam and thus will die. Cards that let you
cycle cards (Barrens, Fragment, Sphinx) are invaluable in a Rush deck, and
although they mean you run out of cards a bit faster, 90 cards in a Pure Rush
deck is usually enough to win with in a 5 player game (you don't get extra
points by ending the game with leftover cards anyway...).
4) Know what you are trying to do. A pure Rush deck wins by killing pure and
simple. If my prey has no active vampires, and all his vampires in torpor have
no blood, he is doing nothing, and my 4 or 5 vampires can bleed him out very
quickly. Thus, he needs to bring out another vampire to continue acting in the
game. He spends 4-8 pool to bring out another vampire, and on my next turn I
kill it before it takes a single action. Repeat. You need to balance the
power of your Predator by strategically killing his vampires, but not making it
too easy for your grand Predator to oust him.
"The only thing you really have to worry about is Deflections, and there's not
much you can do about that, other than punch the guy who plays the Deflection.
Is there anybody besides me who is plain-old pissed off by
Deflection/Telepathic Misdirection?"
If you don't rely on bleeding, you don't have to worry about bleed bounce. If
you kill all of your preys vampires, he can't deflect you anyway.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"Are there heart stings connected
to the poison coming out of your mouth?"
-Belly
Michael Beer
ber...@cco.caltech.edu wrote:
> My personal solution to this is bruise and bleed. Unfortunately, this
> seems
> to mean that all decks require either Dominate or Presence, but such
> is the
> price of competition. Another, slower means of dealing with it is to
> include
> J.S. Simmons, Tasha Morgan, Laptops and Computer Hacking. At least
> these are
> disciplineless.
>
> But, I believe that a good Brujah bruise and bleed would work pretty
> well.
>
We tried this and it works pretty good, but you STILL need a strong rush
component, else you willnot be able to deal with a fast predator (to
slow him down).
One must is Major Boon, preferably on your predator. This will perhaps
keep him humble when bleeding you.
> Since bleeding is the most basic way to oust your prey, it seems
> obvious that
> a good combat deck should try to bleed. The only thing you really
> have to
> worry about is Deflections, and there's not much you can do about
> that, other
> than punch the guy who plays the Deflection. Is there anybody besides
> me who
> is plain-old pissed off by Deflection/Telepathic Misdirection?
>
Only ready minions can bounce bleeds. Torporized ones cannot >8]
> Other combat decks with the bleed angle added in:
> Assamites: just plain suck. Don't use them in any deck. Can't bleed.
? They can in my experience.A CEL THA deck with Parnassus, Kalinda and
the Amr of Alamut has two vampires with intrinsic +1 bleed capability,
Kalinda even with light S&B. Khabar-Community offers even more PERMANENT
stealth on bleeding, and (multiple) Ruthor's Hand(s) ensure that you
have the action recource to bleed AND attack.
Palatial Estate ensures that Kalinda can use her special every turn
(equip using Magic of the Smith) because she burns blood when the action
was successful, not in order to attemt it.
I think it might work.
Perhaps include the Metro Underground / Blood Doll combo to achive some
kind of permanent Freak Drive effect to be able to block / react.
Remember: Parnassus and the Amr have (inferior) Auspex too!
> Caitiff: horde bleed with Zip Gun/DBR
yep. Surely funktional. But who the hell has that much Zip Guns/DBRs?
> Gangrel: Plenty of Gangrels with dom. Either that or use
> disciplineless.
> Add Form of Mist for when you know S:CE is coming.
This is a Gangrel S&B, not a Gangrel Combat deck
> Giovanni/Lasombra: The two clans appparently made for bruise and
> bleed.
> Lasombra have the edge in combat due to Obt.
yes, but most vampires with the appropiate disciplines are fairely high
capacitated and have few means of taking more than one action per turn.
> Malk: Disguised Weapons in the extreme. Still inferior to Malk S&B.
yep. especially due to the Weapon's cost.
> Nos: Scouting Mission plus disciplineless bleed. As the premiere
> combat
> clan, the Nos have to suffer a little in the bleed department.
I build a Deck around the Detroit Sabbat Gang: Archbishop (with PRE
dom), Leatherface (with attack), and some small auxiliary troops.
Core idea was having a Cailean out who took over an Attonement with Mask
of 1k Faces, got some Ravens via Heidelburg Castle and a Flamethrower
via Disguised Weapon.
He bled with Presence (Social Charm and Legal Manipulations) to gain me
pool, and untapped using his Animalism and some Wakes, thus torporizing
all enemies at long range and virtually invulnerable. To counter hostile
guns I included two Canine Hordes, which always were handy.
It worked, but wasn't fast enough to compete with really fast decks.
> Ventrue: My favourite. Trap with Superior Mettle and Undead
> Persistance.
> A few weapons and FOR for maneuvers and presses.
> Does not do well against Tremere.
>
A weeny fortitude will probably do better because of the sheer number of
minions.
If you use the other Ventrue in-clan disciplines as well, it might be
more effective.
By the way: You didn't mentioned Dawn Op. Was that intended?
Michael Beer
Ian Cyr
> ber...@cco.caltech.edu wrote:
<snip>
> > Caitiff: horde bleed with Zip Gun/DBR
>
> yep. Surely funktional. But who the hell has that much Zip Guns/DBRs?
I was in a game the other day were I got completely shut down by a zip gun
deck. I don't remember what clan it was, but I was playing a makeshift Malk
S&B deck, and I got 4 vampires toporized on the third turn, and ANY vampire
after that that I got out. Peter... what was that deck? It was by the guy who
won the tourney at Pentacon 10 and came in second at the most recent Ithaca
Tourney.
> > Gangrel: Plenty of Gangrels with dom. Either that or use
> > disciplineless.
> > Add Form of Mist for when you know S:CE is coming.
>
> This is a Gangrel S&B, not a Gangrel Combat deck
I think we've got one of those floating around here now... I was going to build
it, but Peter got to it before I did. I haven't seen it played though. I've
heard it is good though.
> > Malk: Disguised Weapons in the extreme. Still inferior to Malk S&B.
>
> yep. especially due to the Weapon's cost.
How do you get combat defense in a Malk S&B deck?
> > Ventrue: My favourite. Trap with Superior Mettle and Undead
> > Persistance.
> > A few weapons and FOR for maneuvers and presses.
> > Does not do well against Tremere.
> >
>
> A weeny fortitude will probably do better because of the sheer number of
> minions.
> If you use the other Ventrue in-clan disciplines as well, it might be
> more effective.
> By the way: You didn't mentioned Dawn Op. Was that intended?
I came up with a weird Ventrue deck that I'll post later... it uses the
Bleed/Dawn Op angle to bleed for +4 with GtU and Conditionings, and when
blocked I send them to torpor with Dawn Op...
Unfortanetly, as I am in Ithaca, there are a rather large # of combat decks so
I get pretty much shut down....
How many combat decks are there outside of here, proportionally?
Ian
PDB6
Ian Cyr wrote:
"I was in a game the other day were I got completely shut down by a zip gun
deck. I don't remember what clan it was, but I was playing a makeshift Malk
S&B deck, and I got 4 vampires toporized on the third turn, and ANY vampire
after that that I got out. Peter... what was that deck?"
Wampler! Damn that Wampler!
:-)
It is a weenie vampire celerity based Zip Gun/Blur deck. One of the more
effective weapon decks I have seen to date (lots of manuvers, making IG
difficult to get to work, lots of Side Slips to soak the Zip Gun damage), but
would be meat against a good Brujah thrown object deck.
"How do you get combat defense in a Malk S&B deck?"
You don't. There is pretty much nothing you can do. Maybe Thoughts Betrayed
will help, but not much. Lots of Elisiums and Secure Havens. Sudden Reversal
to defend against Haven Uncovered. The best angle is Wakes and Obedience,
probably, but then you have to be using fairly large vampires (Obedience only
works on younger vamps), but having enough of any combat defense to make a
difference is likely to hamstring the effectiveness of the Stalth and Bleed
angle. When ever I make a Malk S+B deck, I resign myself to getting killed,
and include many Minion Taps (to get my pool back before it is stripped away)
and Humanitas to get out of Torpor cheap. In a strong combat environment,
however, the Malks simply are a bit to soft and weak. A Ventrue Skin of
Steel/Bonding bleed deck is a much better choice.
"I came up with a weird Ventrue deck that I'll post later... it uses the
Bleed/Dawn Op angle to bleed for +4 with GtU and Conditionings, and when
blocked I send them to torpor with Dawn Op"
I'm telling you, you just need more Skin of Steel and superior FOR. Only use
Skin of Steel. No Unflinching Persistance. No Indominibility. Skin. Of.
Steel. Josh played this Ventrue deck that had, like, 12 Skin of Steel and 10
Majesty and won every game in the world when everyone else was playing combat.
"...Unfortanetly, as I am in Ithaca, there are a rather large # of combat decks
so I get pretty much shut down....How many combat decks are there outside of
here, proportionally?"
I strongle suspect not as many. How many other play groups have access to an
average of 10 Immortal Grapples per player?
:-)
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"When they kick out your front door, how you gonna come?
with your hands on your head or the trigger of your gun?"
-The Clash
Gomi no Sensei
In article <N.051998....@clarityconnect.com>,
Ian Cyr <IN...@baka.com> wrote:
>How do you get combat defense in a Malk S&B deck?
Obedience, and nuthin' but. Okay, you can supplement with Elysium
and Secure Haven, and Mariel if you don't mind leaving 7 pool untapped
every turn.
You need big vamps, but hey. It's not like you need to bleed more than
once or twice a turn, if they're each for 6 or 8.
Exempli Gratia: A Leandro/Volker-based 'Return to What?' deck. A Pulse of
the Canaille'd Leandro bleeds (with Govern the Unaligned and Conditioning)
for 10. He really only needs to succeed once per prey, at that level, with
the occasional repeat at just the intrinsic 5 bleed to finish 'em off.
Throw in Volker for the 5th Trads, Metro Underground and Wakes to keep
Leandro at the ready, and you can Deflect, Kindred Coerce, and Obedience
all night long, thanks to the miracle of Dominate -- the Master Defensive
Discipline.
>How many combat decks are there outside of here, proportionally?
At a very rough estimate, in the Bay Area (George Fink's [of JOL fame] merry
little band, plus some others), it runs about 40% combat, 30% bleed (of the
sneak or bruise variety), 20% vote, 10% some weird hinky experimental thing.
I'm usually the 10% guy, merrily watching my tha/FOR Dawn Op/Weather Control
deck choke, barf and gag. Ah well. Such is the march of Science.
gomi
--
go ahead, wreck your life: that might be good
who can say what's wrong or right? nobody can
Xian
PDB6 wrote in message
>"How do you get combat defense in a Malk S&B deck?"
>
>You don't. There is pretty much nothing you can do.
>Maybe Thoughts Betrayed
>will help, but not much.
Nope...TB never helped anybody...ever...it only invites unwanted and nasty
reprisals...froem me, anyway...(mmm...Anti-TB deck...)
>Lots of Elisiums and Secure Havens. Sudden Reversal
>to defend against Haven Uncovered. The best angle is Wakes and Obedience,
>probably, but then you have to be using fairly large vampires (Obedience
only
>works on younger vamps), but having enough of any combat defense to make a
>difference is likely to hamstring the effectiveness of the Stalth and Bleed
>angle.
The only thing I have to add is Mercy for the Weak...it's not going to work
all the time, but it does work, and discipline-less S:CE is all good. I had
a friend who packed these into his Malk S&B deck, and my rushing vamps
invariably had less blood than his, as he did his best to keep his vampires
full with mega-HG & the Rack (which I would steal & then he'd steal back at
stealth...).
Yes, Virginia, there is a use for Mercy for the Weak. If you're willing to
sacrifice the card slots, along with Obedience, Elysium and Mariel, you can
keep your Malks pretty safe from combat.
Xian
Legbiter
>
> "I came up with a weird Ventrue deck that I'll post later... it uses the
> Bleed/Dawn Op angle to bleed for +4 with GtU and Conditionings, and when
> blocked I send them to torpor with Dawn Op"
>
> I'm telling you, you just need more Skin of Steel and superior FOR. Only use
> Skin of Steel. No Unflinching Persistance. No Indominibility. Skin. Of.
> Steel. Josh played this Ventrue deck that had, like, 12 Skin of Steel and 10
> Majesty and won every game in the world when everyone else was playing combat.
Skin is a dam' fine card, no dah. Unflinching persistence can be worth it
for the manouever, though - good against sewer-lid chucking Brujahs and
that horrid unpreventable first round damage card the Assamites have ..
blood sweat? Also if up against manoeuvering tremeres you will need it to
have a chance of killing them before they take you to a second round and
steal all your blood. But maybe Peter you are thinking of Skin as a
defensive card? In that case I fully concur. I personally like it better
with guns, DBRs and Pulled fangs though.
>
> "...Unfortanetly, as I am in Ithaca, there are a rather large # of
combat decks
> so I get pretty much shut down....How many combat decks are there outside of
> here, proportionally?"
>
> I strongle suspect not as many. How many other play groups have access to an
> average of 10 Immortal Grapples per player?
> :-)
Certainly that's true in the UK. I have 11 IGs in my current combat deck
and that may be a UK record. Or at least it will be until I put the other
2 in .. hehehe .....
Anyway, in Portsmouth we had 3 combat decks out of 18. Only one was IG
based - the others were Assamite and Anarch Agg dam.
Eric Pettersen
go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
> Exempli Gratia: A Leandro/Volker-based 'Return to What?' deck. A Pulse of
> the Canaille'd Leandro bleeds (with Govern the Unaligned and Conditioning)
> for 10. He really only needs to succeed once per prey, at that level, with
> the occasional repeat at just the intrinsic 5 bleed to finish 'em off.
> Throw in Volker for the 5th Trads, Metro Underground and Wakes to keep
> Leandro at the ready, and you can Deflect, Kindred Coerce, and Obedience
> all night long, thanks to the miracle of Dominate -- the Master Defensive
> Discipline.
It doesn't really invalidate your point, but Leandro only has inferior
Dominate.
---
Eric Pettersen
pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)