Lucian with 11 Orun, plays Brutal Influence, Command of the Beast, Conditioning.
librarian
Lucian 4 bleed
Brutal +1, 11 Orun +11
Command +1
Conditioning +3
Total: 19.
Well, I guess we could give him skill cards for skills he doesn't have
to give him more Orun. That'll get him up to what, 33?
Anything I missed?
best -
chris
Juggernaut1981
Lucian:
+3 built in
+2 GtU @ dom or +2 Legal @ pre/PRE
+1 Brutal Influence
+11 11 Orun
+1 Command of the Beast
+3 Conditioning
= 22 Bleed.
Pullen
No Brutal Influence is an action, so u cant play GtU or Legal with it,
so 19 would be the # with the equation purposed, but u could up the
total by adding bleed retainers (+4), a laptop (+1), Heart of the City
(+2), Pulse of the Canaille (+2) and Legendary Vampire (+2) to up it
to 30 :)
librarian
Did I misread Brutal Influence? Isn't it an action?
best -
chris
librarian
28 different disciplines, of which Lucian has 6 already at SUP. 10 of
them are Bloodlines Disciplines, which you have to have Sanguine
Instruction to do. But the others are all Skilly cards (incl Abombwe).
So, he could get up to 35 capacity (24 extra skill cards), so that's 35
Orun.
1+3+1+35+1+3 (and then adding Jugg's sugg's): +4+1+2+2+2 = 55 bleed.
Mix in 1 Strange Day FTW!
best -
chris
(Rock Cat blocks, Traps, IG, wash rinse repeat, Burning Wrath FT real Win).
librarian
Deck:
Deck Name: Here's how he can become perfect
Created By: shorb
Description: 55 bleed, unblockable baby!
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 44, Max: 44, Avg: 11)
--------------------------------------------
12 Lucian ANI AUS DOM OBF POT PRE 11 Guruhi
Library: (76 cards)
-------------------
Master (61 cards)
2 Abombwe
2 Celerity
2 Chimerstry
2 Dementation
2 Fortitude
1 Legendary Vampire
2 Necromancy
2 Obtenebration
35 Orun
2 Protean
2 Quietus
2 Serpentis
2 Thaumaturgy
1 Trophy: No Questions
2 Vicissitude
Action (3 cards)
1 Brutal Influence
1 Heart of the City
1 Pulse of the Canaille
Action Modifier (8 cards)
1 Approximation of Loyalty
1 Command of the Beast
1 Conditioning
1 Devil-Channel: Throat
1 Elder Impersonation
1 Recurring Contemplation
1 Strange Day
1 True Love`s Face
Retainer (3 cards)
1 J. S. Simmons, Esq.
1 Robert Carter
1 Tasha Morgan
Equipment (1 cards)
1 Laptop Computer
This deck was last saved at 10:38:20 PM on 7/15/2009
Ferenc Vasadi
>
> - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -
Ancestor Spirit
Kduva Mask
.. :)
Ira Fay
You could make him an Anarch for a bit, then play Stealing Years many
times against other vamps with Orun on them. Then Mozambique Allure
back to Laibon.
But if we change this puzzle to be: Get the biggest bleed possible in
a single action with infinite time, infinite pool (from the edge), and
no other players using a legal deck, I think you'd need to go with
Spiridonas and Frederick the Weak (for Waste Management Operation,
since you'll likely need to discard a lot to get the cards in the
right order.)
> > 2 Abombwe
> > 2 Celerity
> > 2 Chimerstry
> > 2 Dementation
> > 2 Fortitude
> > 2 Necromancy
> > 2 Obtenebration
> > 2 Protean
> > 2 Quietus
> > 2 Serpentis
> > 2 Vicissitude
And also:
1 Potence
1 Presence
2 Animalism
2 Obfuscate
2 Auspex
So he ends up being a 39 cap without bloodlines disciplines
> > 39 Orun
That's 69 cards so far. We definitely need these:
1 Brutal Influence
1 Waste Management Operation
1 Mozambique Allure
We should definitely use any cards that give us +2 bleed or more with
a single card:
> > 1 Legendary Vampire
> > 1 Heart of the City
> > 1 Pulse of the Canaille
> > 1 Robert Carter
1 Inveraray, Scotland
1 Conditioning
1 Despiral
1 Clan Impersonation
Now we're at 80 cards. I would include:
5 Sanguine Instruction
5 Orun
So you can get 5 more capacity
In the Crypt, I would include:
Spiridonas
Fredrick the Weak
Bloodlines vamps to Sanguine Instruct 5 times.
So the total capacity is 44, which means there can be 45 counters on
Despiral.
+1 Brutal Influence
+44 44 Orun
+45 Despiral
+2 Legendary Vampire
+2 Heart of the City
+2 Pulse of the Canaille
+2 Robert Carter
+3 Inveraray, Scotland
+3 Conditioning
+39 Spiridonas's special (44 cap - 2 cost of special - 1 Brutal Inf -
1Conditioning - 1 Robert Carter)
= 143 Bleed
After doing all of that, though, I'm wondering if it would be more
efficient to simply include:
1 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1 Despiral
1 Clan Impersonation
1 Inveraray, Scotland
86 Camarilla Vitae Slave and/or Discipline Master Cards
Then, we get Spiridonas to be a 95-cap vampire, so Despiral reaches 96
counters.
+96 Despiral
+3 Inveraray, Scotland
+93 Spiridonas's special (95 cap - 2 cost of special)
= 192 bleed.
So I guess that's a lot better. The crypt is Spiridonas with a
Lasombra.
Can anyone break 200 bleed in one action, using a legal deck with
infinite time, pool, and no other players?
Ira
henrik
He could clan impersonate to Ishtarri and get Despirals (and put quite
a few counters on each if he's a 35 cap).
Go go math people!
Janne Hägglund
Given infinite amount of turns and no interference from other players, all
you need is one Ishtarri and one Despiral. Add counter, hunt, add counter,
hunt, add counter,...
Add a Perfectionist as well, and you can do away with the hunting, if you
want to reach +infinity bleed at twice the speed. :-]
HG
Izaak
rafael_paguiar
> Enkil Cog gives +1 bleed too.
How about this build?
Deck Name : Perfect
Author : Rafael Pereira de Aguiar
Description :
Crypt (12 vampires) Capacity min: 3 max: 11 average: 7.75
------------------------------------------------------------
5x Lucian, the Perfec 11 ANI AUS DOM OBF POT PRE Guruhi:4
3x Nana Buruku 8 ANI POT PRE Guruhi:4
2x Smash 3 pot pre !Brujah:4
1x Alessandro Garcia 4 pot pre pro !Brujah:4
1x Patrick 4 POT pre !Brujah:4
Library (61 cards)
------------------------------------------------------------
Action (8)
4x Brutal Influence
4x Revelations
Action Modifier (13)
4x Conditioning
1x Enkil Cog
4x Freak Drive
4x Will-o'-the-Wisp
Combat (6)
2x Disengage
4x Majesty
Equipment (1)
1x Nkishi
Master (33)
3x Chimerstry
3x Fortitude
1x Gang Territory
1x Giant's Blood
1x Legendary Vampire
1x Mbare Market, Harare
3x Minion Tap
12x Orun
2x Parthenon, The
1x Waste Management Operation
5x Zillah's Valley
FVicentini
If you plan to give him chimestry , you NEED to play Hearts Desire!
everything else would be sacrilege!
Chris Berger
> What have I missed? Better than Spiridonas?
>
> Lucian 4 bleed
> Brutal +1, 11 Orun +11
> Command +1
> Conditioning +3
> Total: 19.
>
I get 20. Bad math?
> Well, I guess we could give him skill cards for skills he doesn't have
> to give him more Orun. That'll get him up to what, 33?
> Anything I missed?
>
So, I see you're going for max bleed, but of course max bleed is
infinity, given enough turns. A more enlightening question might be
how much is the reasonable maximum, but the definition of reasonable
is nebulous at best. Personally, I find that in practice, the "Lucian
Bleeds for a Million" deck really bleeds for 12 (I thought it was 13,
but I guess my math was off). Bring out Lucian, play Orun on him,
then Static Virtue for 3 Orun and 3 Aye. Then you bleed with:
Lucian: 1 + 3
Brutal: +1, +4 for Oruns
Conditioning: 3
Total: 12
Command of the Beast isn't really worth +1 for the 1 card space taken
up. My Lucian deck plays with some Elder Impersonation, Seduction,
Approximation of Loyalty, and Force of Personality (to hose non-zombie
allies). Also High Orun (hand size and reduce the cost of EI and
Conditioning (and Approximation, if it's used to cancel bounce or
wake), and High Aye and a little OBF for stealth (High Aye and High
Orun are good because of the burn option so I can cycle to the Static
Virtues). Lucian rarely gets more than 4 Oruns because he has to burn
one every time he bleeds. I also use the !Sal who can look at your
hand in combat, Prophecies of Gehenna, and Revelations to try and deal
with bounce/AI. Everytime I build a bazooka bleed deck, I curse the
fact that Bleeding the Vine can't cancel OOT masters.
Just my two cents - don't let that stop the speculation on bleeds for
50+, of course. =)
henrik
> So, I see you're going for max bleed, but of course max bleed is
> infinity, given enough turns.
How?
I'm assuming you don't mean that the amount will become infinite after
an infinite number of turns, but rather that there's some way to
(infinitly) keep increasing Lucian's bleed after your library is
depleted.
But I just can't figure that way out, since the biggest increaser I
can think of would be Clan Impersonation and Despirals. And that would
be limited by 90 card library and the amount of blood the Despiral
counters will cost eventually.
Chris Berger
counter/hunt, etc... but forgot the X cost. Doh! Okay, so it's not
infinite. It's huge, but not infinite. I'm not sure how to calculate
the maximum, in that case. If you put like 10 Despirals on him, and
got his capacity up to 30, that would take up 29 cards of your deck
and each Despiral could have up to 31 counters on it, for 314 bleed.
And it would take somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000 turns because
of all the hunting. Perfectionist could reduce that significantly, as
would hunt bonuses. But that would take up space in the deck that
could be used for more Despirals. 66 Despirals + 24 Skill cards =
2380 bleed if my math isn't messed up. And if I'm not way off, I
think it takes 666 x 66 = 43956 turns with no outside help. Oops,
forgot the Clan Impersonation, but the 666 x 66 symmetry is too good
to pass up. Since we're assuming that the game goes on for 44000
turns, ignoring the requirements on Despiral doesn't seem too
important, right? =)
There may even be a way to increase the total beyond Despirals, but
+35 bleed seems like a lot for one card... what would you replace it
with? But are we trying to maximize the bleed total at the expense of
every reasonable assumption? If not, there's got to be some
"reasonableness" limit. I think the sample decks posted in this
thread fall within a pretty good reasonableness limit, so I'm not
complaining. I just figured I'd post my own thoughts on what's
reasonable. More than +12 doesn't seem like it's really worth
actually planning for in a real deck that's trying to win. For a fun
deck that just wants to see what it can do, or a thought experiment,
then yeah, the other estimates are perfectly fine. The 2380 estimate
above is obviously ridiculous, and not just because I forgot to factor
in the CI. =)
henrik
> But are we trying to maximize the bleed total at the expense of
> every reasonable assumption? If not, there's got to be some
> "reasonableness" limit.
Only for the excersise, and because I got curious when you said
infinity.
Would be fun to know the highest amount Lucian could actually bleed
for, but I'm not mathy enough to add up all the capacity increasing
cards and weigh them against Despirals and all that.
> I think the sample decks posted in this
> thread fall within a pretty good reasonableness limit, so I'm not
> complaining. I just figured I'd post my own thoughts on what's
> reasonable. More than +12 doesn't seem like it's really worth
> actually planning for in a real deck that's trying to win.
For reasonable amounts, I'd say 9 (4 (base) + 2 (GtU) + 3
(conditioning)) is the most reasonable, and by enough by far. But your
12 is probably around the "highest while still reasonable", even if
that's still some too many cards than what I'd like in a chain.
Chris Berger
> On Jul 16, 6:28 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > But are we trying to maximize the bleed total at the expense of
> > every reasonable assumption? If not, there's got to be some
> > "reasonableness" limit.
>
> Only for the excersise, and because I got curious when you said
> infinity.
> Would be fun to know the highest amount Lucian could actually bleed
> for, but I'm not mathy enough to add up all the capacity increasing
> cards and weigh them against Despirals and all that.
>
it as well. =)
> > I think the sample decks posted in this
> > thread fall within a pretty good reasonableness limit, so I'm not
> > complaining. I just figured I'd post my own thoughts on what's
> > reasonable. More than +12 doesn't seem like it's really worth
> > actually planning for in a real deck that's trying to win.
>
> For reasonable amounts, I'd say 9 (4 (base) + 2 (GtU) + 3
> (conditioning)) is the most reasonable, and by enough by far. But your
> 12 is probably around the "highest while still reasonable", even if
> that's still some too many cards than what I'd like in a chain.
Well, that's a real deck, and it does bleed for 12 reliably. It's a
pain waiting for a Static Virtue if I don't draw one early enough, but
otherwise, it's pretty solid. The problem is more that it runs out of
steam after ousting a prey or two. Also, it can be shut down by
enough bounce or an AI that comes up at the right time (i.e. drawn to
replace after a Revelations, or if I just don't have a Revelations and
still decide to risk it), or a fast enough predator, or good enough
rush (Obedience helps, but there's not enough room for *enough*
Obedience. Force of Personality helps also but loses to Grapple or
enough Psyche).
Rehlow
Created By: Rehlow
Description: Infinite time with lots of Despirals for monster bleed
Crypt: (12 cards)
--------------------------------------------
12 Nakhthorheb OBF PRE SER 10 FoS
Is there anyone with a "better" capacity to discipline ratio?
Not that it matters in infinite turns, but two actions a turn is a
nice special.
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (30 cards)
2 Abombwe
2 Animalism
2 Auspex
2 Celerity
2 Chimerstry
2 Dementation
2 Dominate
2 Fortitude
2 Necromancy
2 Obtenebration
2 Potence
2 Protean
2 Quietus
2 Thaumaturgy
2 Vicissitude
Action (60 cards)
1 Clan Impersonate
59 Despiral
Nak becomes a 40 cap and Clan Impersonates to Ishtarri. Then each
Despiral can get 41 counters so that's 1 + 41 * 59 = 2420 bleed.
Later,
~Rehlow
henrik
Neat. I guess the hardest part will be drawing the Clan Impersonation
before clogging on Despirals.
Chris Berger
The hardest part will be staying awake for the several weeks necessary
to get up to 2420 bleed if you don't get ousted first. =)
Very nice, though. And as a bonus, his untap definitely reduces the
number of turns necessary - probably only about 25,000 turns! I think
that if you avoid being ousted, you could do it in about 3 months of
playing 24 hours a day. Unless your opponents are quick about their
turns, in which case, at 1 minute/turn around the table, you could get
it down to just over two weeks.
Chris Berger
Oh I forgot, you'll need about $400 worth of counters for your
Despirals.
Unless you use percentile dice.
LSJ
Winters and a Tradition Upheld, Sargon Fragment, 2x Recruitment, and Charigger
the Axe.
Infinite bleed.
Chris Berger
Even easier, Al-Muntaqim with infinite Caitiff.
But I think originally it was, what's the max bleed for Lucian
specifically (though he can always Clan Impersonate, Praxis Seize, and
then do your whole crazy thing above). The Nakh deck is kind of a
digression on how to max out bleed with Despiral. But I guess jumping
through all the hoops isn't necessary if you can stack your crypt to
the moon and back. Good luck shuffling. Or finding that one non-
Caitiff with the Recruitment. =)
FVicentini
Library: (90 cards)
Later,
~Rehlow
you have to consider cutting some discipline cards for more
despirals , this is a maximisation problem solvable with a
differential equation
bleed amount: despirals * capacity
capacity= 10 + number of discipline cards
Maximum despirals= 89 - discipline cards
im not so found of doing the entire set of calculations, but start
there
LSJ
> On Jul 16, 1:09 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Use a crypt of some random prince, a random Giovanni, and <infinite> Uriah
>> Winters and a Tradition Upheld, Sargon Fragment, 2x Recruitment, and Charigger
>> the Axe.
>>
>> Infinite bleed.
>
> Even easier, Al-Muntaqim with infinite Caitiff.
Or Al-Muntaqim, one Caitiff, and a Hand of Conrad to recycle the Caitiff.
(And a Brujah to get the Hand, of course).
Chris Berger
n^2 is always greater than (n-z) * (n+z). That is, the equation is
maximized when capacity = # of despirals + 1. That's not possible
with discipline cards, because Nakhthorheb already gets you the
highest capacity with smallest number of disciplines. Though there
might be another 9 or 10 cap out there with a superior in a discipline
that doesn't have skill cards, which might get you a higher potential
capacity. I'm not sure and haven't really checked.
LSJ
> n^2 is always greater than (n-z) * (n+z). That is, the equation is
> maximized when capacity = # of despirals + 1. That's not possible
> with discipline cards, because Nakhthorheb already gets you the
> highest capacity with smallest number of disciplines. Though there
> might be another 9 or 10 cap out there with a superior in a discipline
> that doesn't have skill cards, which might get you a higher potential
> capacity. I'm not sure and haven't really checked.
You could use a Clan Impersonation and some Camarilla Vitae Slaves to make up
the difference. CVS is an old standard for arbitrary capacity.
Chris Berger
Oh yeah, I forgot. I only ever used them one at a time, with infinite
Aurora Van Brandes and a Soul Gem.
henrik
> Created By: Rehlow
> Description: Infinite time with lots of Despirals for monster bleed
>
> Crypt: (12 cards)
> --------------------------------------------
> 12 Nakhthorheb OBF PRE SER 10 FoS
>
> Is there anyone with a "better" capacity to discipline ratio?
Qadir ul-Ghani's got +1 bleed and doesn't need Clan Impersonation.
9 cap with 3 superior and 2 inferior. So could possibly be a better
pick than Nakhthorheb.
Chris Berger
Qadir has a maximum capacity (without Camarilla Vitae Slaves) of 3
less than Nakhthorheb. He can have 4 more Despirals in the deck (1
less CI and 3 less skill cards). So he would have 63 * 38 + 2 = 2396
max bleed with Despirals. Less than Nakh's 2420.
If Qadir uses CVS, he won't need a CI for that either, meaning he can
play with 40 capacity increasers and 50 Despirals, giving him 50 * 50
+ 2 = 2502 bleed. Although Nakh can use the CVS's too, making 2 CI's,
38 capacity increasers, and 50 Despirals, giving him 49 * 50 = 2450
bleed - a little lower, but twice as fast =). If we're going that
route and # disciplines don't matter as much, Lucian can get 50 * 50 +
4 = 2504 bleed. Any 10-cap Lasombra could also do it by getting the
CVS's first and only using 1 CI, getting 2501 plus any base bleed
bonus they might have.
brandonsantacruz
Don't forget Power of One at pot and Leverage!
Christian C
Someone upthere chalenge for the best bleed with a legal deck.
I was about to point to infinite hermana hambrienta mayor, many
vessels to regain pool and walk of cain in a kind of deck that can
win. And Happen:
estrictly talking the aproach of infinite Uriah or infinite caitiff
simply can´t work because, from a mathtematician point of view, your
chances to get Al muntaquim if you put him ramdomly betwen infinite
caitiff is always zero and the time to find him via recruitment is
infinite.
(it´s been said thar God plays with dice, but would he play Vtes?
in the other hand, you can always draw a hermana hambrienta from a
infinite pile of HH to add one to a gazillion bleed.
librarian
Infinite Hermana menors, with 89 Blood Dolls, and 1 Walk of Caine, is
that the deck you are talking about? And really, since we are positing
infinite time, I guess you only need 59 Blood Dolls...
best -
chris
Izaak
> you need is one Ishtarri and one Despiral. Add counter, hunt, add
> counter,
> hunt, add counter,...
>
> Add a Perfectionist as well, and you can do away with the hunting, if you
> want to reach +infinity bleed at twice the speed. :-]
That doesn't work because adding a counter to Despiral costs X where X is
the number of counters on it, so that would limit it to the vampire's
capacity and also require a LOT more hunt actions ;)
Izaak
> (And a Brujah to get the Hand, of course).
Why a Brujah? Some trick I'm missing?
Juggernaut1981
*does simple maximisation calculation*
B = Bleed
D = Despirals
C = Cap
M = Masters
B = DxC
C = 10 + M
D = 89 - M
==> B = 99D - D^2
Maximum point of B occurs at D = 49.5
0.5 cards is non-sensical.
@D=49 ==> M = 40, C = 50, B = 2450
@D=50 ==> M = 39, C = 49, B = 2450
Modying to be an 89 card deck.
C = 10+M
D = 88-M
Max point of B occurs at D = 49
@D=49 ==> M = 40, C = 50, B = 2450.
This is theoretically enough to oust 81.66666 methuselahs (if the
excess bleed was "passed onto the next player").
Vincent Crisafulli
"librarian" <auct...@superfuncards.com> wrote in message
news:h3m9dn$ns5$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> What have I missed? Better than Spiridonas?
>
> Lucian 4 bleed
> Brutal +1, 11 Orun +11
> Command +1
> Conditioning +3
> Total: 19.
> Well, I guess we could give him skill cards for skills he doesn't have to
> give him more Orun. That'll get him up to what, 33?
> Anything I missed?
>
> best -
>
> chris
LSJ
Nah. I was conflating the two POT equipments.
henrik
wrote:
> +1 for leverage (play before command), if you already have the edge.
Why Leverage before Command?
I assume you mean Command of the Beast, in which case I don't think it
matters and if you're really talking about Command, then it doesn't
matter + I don't get why you should play the card at all.
floppyzedolfin
> you have to consider cutting some discipline cards for more
> despirals , this is a maximisation problem solvable with a
> differential equation
> bleed amount: despirals * capacity
> capacity= 10 + number of discipline cards
> Maximum despirals= 89 - discipline cards
>
> im not so found of doing the entire set of calculations, but start
> there
Maximum reached for 39 or 40 (same result) increasing-capacity cards,
the rest being despirals.
bonus bleed amount = 2450.
(that's merely +27 bleed per card in the deck)
If switching to a non-nakhtorheb vampire, you get 1 extra card, and
the maximum is reached for 40 increasing-capacity cards: +2500 bleed.
Stephanie Iwanciow Haas
Leverage isn't a bad card, especially when you have weenie bleeders w/
o good bleed disciplines. Hack for +1, bleed again with computer
hacking and add another with leverage for a bleed of 3. Not bad for 1-
cap caitiffs.
Brandon
henrik
wrote:
> Leverage isn't a bad card, especially when you have weenie bleeders w/
> o good bleed disciplines. Hack for +1, bleed again with computer
> hacking and add another with leverage for a bleed of 3. Not bad for 1-
> cap caitiffs.
I didn't say it was a bad card. I think it's an awesome card. I just
asked for the reason to play it before Command (of the Beast), instead
of after. Since Vincent explicitly said to play it after Command, I
figured that he had some reason that I couldn't see (or that he
thought you had to play it before Command (of the Beast), in which
case he would be wrong).
Vincent Crisafulli
>> o good bleed disciplines. Hack for +1, bleed again with computer
>> hacking and add another with leverage for a bleed of 3. Not bad for 1-
>> cap caitiffs.
>
>I didn't say it was a bad card. I think it's an awesome card. I just
>asked for the reason to play it before Command (of the Beast), instead
>of after. Since Vincent explicitly said to play it after Command, I
>figured that he had some reason that I couldn't see (or that he
>thought you had to play it before Command (of the Beast), in which
>case he would be wrong).
I thought you were theoretically trying to find the maximum bleed for
Lucian, so I mentioned a +bleed card that had not yet been mentioned. If
you're making a more playable, realistic deck, you'd probably want better
bleed modifiers than Leverage. I also meant to say play before
"Conditioning". Sorry for the confusion.