Heirs to the Blood, final VTES set from WW?
librarian
WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange that
there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed to release
in what, 3 weeks or less?
On a related topic, how much longer can LSJ be the netrep/lead designer
for the game? I don't think indefinitely.
If it was me, I would nominate James Coupe to be his replacement, if it
ever came to that...
best -
chris
The Lasombra
>So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
>WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
>that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
Anything is possible.
It could also be that they have no employees who have responsibility
for VTES, aside from the 400+ volunteers listed on their site.
Perhaps you'd like to buy the license and take over for them?
I'd think that a small dedicated company could do better with it.
CCP's focus is Eve and White Wolf employees' focus is RPG book
development/sales, not VTES CCG development/sales.
>I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange that
>there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed to release
>in what, 3 weeks or less?
Last rumor I heard was November 25th.
Still waiting for the official announcement.
I suspect that there were printing issues / a printing delay.
>On a related topic, how much longer can LSJ be the netrep/lead designer
>for the game? I don't think indefinitely.
As long as he likes. He is a cylon after all.
>If it was me, I would nominate James Coupe to be his replacement, if it
>ever came to that...
Indeed.
Kevin M.
> So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
> WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
> that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
I'm not sure how lack of promotion for VTES has ever meant that WW
is pulling back support for VTES...
> I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange
> that there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed
> to release in what, 3 weeks or less?
This has happened before. Could be several things.
> On a related topic, how much longer can LSJ be the netrep/lead
> designer for the game? I don't think indefinitely.
Why don't you think LSJ could or would do it forever?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Robert Goudie
> So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
> WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
> that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
While it is certainly possible, I don't think it is wise to read a
lack of promotion as being an indicator that something bad is brewing.
If support were usually great and then jumped to non-existent, I'd be
concerned. But moving from bad to worse isn't particularly alarming to
me.
> I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange that
> there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed to release
> in what, 3 weeks or less?
Meh.
> On a related topic, how much longer can LSJ be the netrep/lead designer
> for the game? I don't think indefinitely.
Netrep seems like it is mostly preaching to the choir these days. He
has all of you to answer now and just has to say "Correct" once in a
while and collect his paycheck. :) Okay, that's an exaggeration but I
doubt this is hard for Scott and he's making money doing it. I think
he'll keep cashing the checks as long as they let him.
Same for designer. Unless he gets bored or runs out of ideas I don't
see why he couldn't do it indefinitely. Last time I peeked inside the
vault Scott had tons of card ideas.
-Robert
Haze
> So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
> WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
> that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
>
> I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange that
> there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed to release
> in what, 3 weeks or less?
strange? since I've started playing in 2008, no promotion at all seems
to be completely normal to me!
Brum
> As long as he likes. He is a cylon after all.
What the frack!!!!???!!!!
How the frack do you know that??
Does he listen to strange versions of All Along The Watchtower???
Now I get it! It makes so much sense, now. All those Watchtowers! And
I bet the Imbued are Skinjobs, built to bring the end of us all.
Gehenna, my ass.
And all you people playing right into their game, helping the Cylons
by playing Imbued.
Shame on you.
Matthew T. Morgan
--
Kushiel
> So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
> WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
> that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
I was just thinking that we were about due for one of these "the sky
is falling/is the sky falling?" threads.
John Eno
brandonsantacruz
> is falling/is the sky falling?" threads.
That'll happen when WW leaves things wide open to speculation. There's
nothing conclusive, there's just nothing going on. This seems to be an
irrational way of doing business and Chris pretty much said what I was
thinking. When a single volunteer promotes a product more than the
company, it makes me wonder what's going on.
Brandon
Brum
Are you answering my "lets start doing random humor (of questionable
quality - sorry), because the sky is not falling" or the "the sky IS
falling" posts?
.
Matthew T. Morgan
I'm advising everyone who does not have a grip to get one. They are
awfully handy.
librarian
I believe Mike Courtois is a grip. Or maybe a gaffer. He's definitely
not a best boy.
best -
chris
Kushiel
wrote:
> That'll happen when WW leaves things wide open to speculation. There's
> nothing conclusive, there's just nothing going on. This seems to be an
> irrational way of doing business and Chris pretty much said what I was
> thinking. When a single volunteer promotes a product more than the
> company, it makes me wonder what's going on.
Oh, I completely agree. I just think that it's funny to watch the
cycle perpetuate. I see the lack of WW advertising/support as business-
as-usual when it comes to VTES, rather than a harbinger of doooom. But
who knows?
John Eno
Kevin M.
Don't wonder. A few years ago, White Wolf got purchased by CCP,
a company who has their own product line and has obviously shifted
the focus of many of their White Wolf resources toward those products.
Is V:TES still here? Yes.
Is V:TES still supported by the company. Yes.
Does V:TES sometimes have previews late? Yes.
deadsloth
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=news&articleid=1167
Still can't find the release date.
Wilsoros
lite Potomac get information way ahead of time, based on speculations
of WW. They have to announce to them months ahead of time to expect
the product, but many delays happen, for many reasons.
I went into a new game story today, about 30 people in there, I asked
if they had Vtes, and they said no, that game was canceled... I
corrected them, and their employees were like "really?" wow that is
neat, it is still around.
The game is small, the game is hard, the game is a kidney stone, takes
a lot of work to pass on, but you feel so much better once you do...
time for sleep.
Lönkka
> Heirs to the Blood launch kit is on the official page now.http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=news&articleid=1167
>
> Still can't find the release date.
It didn't make it to the products shipping NOW.
It was said that it might make it, but most probably not -and it
didn't.
Which means that most likely it'll be on the next release batch that
(using my educated guess) might have the release date the last
Wednesday of November.
I'm pretty excited about the launch Kit.
Having boosters from both core sets in it as well as the new expansion
should mean extremely enjoyable draft games.
It also having this in it sure soudns cool:
1 Promo Tablecloth
Cheers,
Janne / Lönkka
Matthew T. Morgan
> Does V:TES sometimes have previews late? Yes.
Sometimes?
Matthew T. Morgan
> Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
>>
>> I'm advising everyone who does not have a grip to get one. They are
>> awfully handy.
>
> I believe Mike Courtois is a grip. Or maybe a gaffer. He's definitely not a
> best boy.
Exactly. Everyone should get a Mike Courtois. He's a 2 cap with dom!
Robert Goudie
WW has cleverly positioned themselves so that when a final set does
come the warning signs may completely blend in with the business-as-
usual approach. So how will we know when the end comes?
My guess is that the end won't be announced along with the release of
a set but rather that a new set won't be announced at all. Probably
after the printing of a set that doesn't make money (and isn't
something unusual or experimental like Nights of Reckoning). Odds are
that the production will stop at a point that costs money. My guess
is that a next set would be stopped before the art director spends
money on card art (why spend money on art if you won't print? why
print if you're not going to distribute?). Keep your eyes on the
artists' blogs for harbingers of doom.
-Robert
Peter D Bakija
> My guess is that the end won't be announced along with the release of
> a set but rather that a new set won't be announced at all.
All this apocalyptic discussion of the end of the game is nice and
all, but all reports are that VTES is a very profitable arm of the
company--it has limited staff costs (Oscar and LSJ?), sells well, and
doesn't cost a ton to produce. It seems safer to assume that the game
will continue indefinitely. I suspect that the game will keep chugging
along as it is now, and the issue won't be "the game was killed!" but
instead "Man. Now we are up to G8 vampires? Lame!" or some such
tomfoolery :-)
-Peter
brandonsantacruz
> Heirs to the Blood launch kit is on the official page now.http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=news&articleid=1167
Mission Accomplished
James Coupe
>All this apocalyptic discussion of the end of the game is nice and
>all, but all reports are that VTES is a very profitable arm of the
>company--it has limited staff costs (Oscar and LSJ?), sells well, and
>doesn't cost a ton to produce.
I would imagine that the cost of art direction is non-trivial.
Obviously, some costs will be shared with other games - cultivating
artists, re-using work where appropriate - but sourcing and vetting a
couple of hundred brand new pieces of full-colour artwork for V:TES per
year won't come for free.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Kevin M.
> Kevin M. wrote:
>> Does V:TES sometimes have previews late? Yes.
>
> Sometimes?
I remember LSJ putting up a preview a week early one time,
and he's put up several exactly when we thought they'd be up.
So sometimes seems appropriate.
Not that it's important at any level anyway. ;)
Peter D Bakija
> I would imagine that the cost of art direction is non-trivial.
> Obviously, some costs will be shared with other games - cultivating
> artists, re-using work where appropriate - but sourcing and vetting a
> couple of hundred brand new pieces of full-colour artwork for V:TES per
> year won't come for free.
Oh, I'd never claim it was trivial. But indications are that the cost
of producing the game is enough less than they make selling the game
in the grand scheme that I can't imagine that they would stop
producing it any time soon based on financial issues. I mean, I
certainly could be wrong, and things can could certainly change, but
from what I understand, VTES is, and has been for a while, profitable
enough.
-Peter
Frederick Scott
news:b0d5cb93-fdab-4ecc...@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
I like the new card backs! :-)
Fred
***JediMike***
> I believe Mike Courtois is a grip. Or maybe a gaffer. He's definitely
> not a best boy.
I only gaff when I play VTES! I prefer electricity! 220/221 whatever
it takes.
***JediMike***
Kushiel
> come the warning signs may completely blend in with the business-as-
> usual approach. So how will we know when the end comes?
Yeah, totally. Well, I'm not at all sure that WW set things up like
this intentionally, but it's where they're at now.
> My guess is that the end won't be announced along with the release of
> a set but rather that a new set won't be announced at all.
I can't imagine them making any kind of "VTES is now done, go home
folks" announcement unless they were doing so in an attempt to see if
that riled up enough people to keep the game alive. But I've got zero
business savvy, so I really have no idea.
John Eno
RoddPrime
I don't have a crystal ball to see what is going to happen. But, if I
have my guess I don't think VTES will stick around for many years to
come. At least not like it is now.
The game is not a gold mine and thus CCP/White Wolf could easily
reallocate resources to something they thought would be more
profitable or want to focus on. Often when a company looks to take
things to the next level they refocus the company and cut things that
might not be in that plan. Many companies have done this from the
gaming industry to food companies such as Campbell's. If the game
isn't growing, the economy being what it is, and no huge loss or gain
then cutting small branches becomes something the company will
reassess.
On the flip side there is no information that VTES is either making,
losing, or breaking even with money. There are volunteers that keep
the game going. The player base that is there while it may not have
grown has been the backbone for keeping the game around. Even the
small things like donations for food/drinks at NAC were covered by the
player's donations. The VTES player base is largely not concerned
about winning money, but more about the pride of winning and just
having a great time. Alternatively while all that sounds rosy that
doesn't necessarily equate to good business sense because at the end
of the day they are still a business.
If there were ever a good time to "delay" an expansion it would be now
and wait until EC is done. At that point you have at least let VTES
players finish the year with dignity.
Because of the above reasons I would not doubt either White Wolf/CCP
keeping the game around and seeing how things do in the near future or
simply letting the game go in best possible way they can out of
respect for the players.
Things will happen the way they are meant to. All that said let me go
build another deck I am working on.
Peter D Bakija
> On the flip side there is no information that VTES is either making,
> losing, or breaking even with money.
As noted, indications are that VTES is perfectly profitable. It
doesn't cost much to support or produce, and sells well.
-Peter
Kevin M.
> The game is not a gold mine
Sources, please?
RoddPrime
I am simply saying by no stretch of the imagination is VTES turning
paper into gold for White Wolf. That is not to say they aren't making
money on it, but if it were literally that big of a money maker they
would push the product more and try to attract new customers. Common
business sense will tell you that much.
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>> RoddPrime wrote:
>>> The game is not a gold mine
>> [...]
>>
>> Sources, please?
>
> paper into gold for White Wolf. That is not to say they aren't making
> money on it, but if it were literally that big of a money maker they
> would push the product more and try to attract new customers.
> Common business sense will tell you that much.
You're assuming that WW is acting with common business sense in
regards to VTES. Perhaps they instead set VTES on cruise control.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
RoddPrime
> RoddPrime wrote:
> > "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> >> RoddPrime wrote:
> >>> The game is not a gold mine
> >> [...]
>
> >> Sources, please?
>
> > I am simply saying by no stretch of the imagination is VTES turning
> > paper into gold for White Wolf. That is not to say they aren't making
> > money on it, but if it were literally that big of a money maker they
> > would push the product more and try to attract new customers.
> > Common business sense will tell you that much.
>
> You're assuming that WW is acting with common business sense in
> regards to VTES. Perhaps they instead set VTES on cruise control.
>
> Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
> "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
> you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
> "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
> Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Given how little is known anything is possible.
BernieTime
Peter D Bakija
> Given how little is known anything is possible.
Well, here is the thing. I have had conversations with people in the
know about this game (who shall remain nameless, 'cause I don't know
if they want to be on record as discussing the finances of the game)
and all indications are that VTES is totally profitable, relative to
it's cost--it has fairly minimal cost outlays, minimal staff costs,
and sells well. While likely not a huge moneymaker for CCP or
whatever, still, a solidly financially solvent mechanism for the
company.
-Peter
Atom Weaver
> FNORD!!!
Sheesh. Bernie comes back to post, but all there is is a few
exclamation points... What's up with that? :-)
DZ
AW
Wilsoros
I didn't see Bernie's post? where is it?
Hey White Wolf killed their amazing world and replaced it with an
inferior product. Given that we weren't replaced with Pimp Slapping,
I hope that phase is over for them...
Anyways, folks remember Vtes died once, 1996. It was dead until 2000,
it is now 2009, we've had 9 years of support(making new cards), why
would that change now, the game is profitable, no it isn't bringing in
loads of gold, but in this world where MMOs are consuming so much, I
can't see why a not MMO would be killed.
Raziel
>
> Hey White Wolf killed their amazing world and replaced it with an
> inferior product.
Nope, new World of Darkness is not inferior. It's different. True,
oWoD was good, but nWoD is also good.
Fact, that you like oWoD more does not make nWoD 'inferior'. Your
claim is stupid.
James Coupe
>Nope, new World of Darkness is not inferior. It's different. True,
>oWoD was good, but nWoD is also good.
>
>Fact, that you like oWoD more does not make nWoD 'inferior'. Your
>claim is stupid.
That a variety of features of the nWoD have mutated to be more like the
oWoD has tended to suggest that the nWoD has been "inferior" with
players. Certainly, I've heard anecdotes from store owners that their
sales of nWoD were really quite poor.
That players appear to have trouble migrating to it suggests that it is
inferior in the business sense, where cold, hard cash is needed at the
end of the day.
Raziel
Variety of features muteted to be different as well, so this is not
valid argument.
I also heard from story owners about poor sales, but i would rather
want to know this from WW. Or you, if you have hard numbers.
The majority of players seems to like nWoD more on some WoD forums
(old and new). Again you have knowlegle about that, or you simply
bluff ?
Daneel
wrote:
Please realise that you are posting on a newsgroup that is dedicated
to the last living OWoD game. :)
Anyway, I also think that NuWoD is inferior. I did give it the
benefit of doubt, and I actually found it to be more balanced, more
consistent and to have a better system. The cross-over was also
better supported. Everything meshed well together - all the things
that could NOT be said about the OWoD.
With all that said, the richness of the source material was somehow
missing. I felt that if I burn my shelf of OWoD books, and fill
that shelf with NuWoD books, the benefit would be marginal (if
positive at all). I've found that despite (irrespective of? because
of?) being unbalanced, clumsy and often controversial, OWoD was
better suited for the mystery / gothic horror / angst kind of game.
So learning from the many mistakes of Old WoD the authors of NuWoD
made absolutely sure to avoid those mistakes - and made a couple
of new mistakes instead that the old game eloquently didn't have.
--
Regards,
Daneel
Daneel
wrote:
> The majority of players seems to like nWoD more on some WoD forums
> (old and new). Again you have knowlegle about that, or you simply
> bluff ?
These two sentences look weird together.
However, if you wish to use arbitrary arguments (like your impression
of what players like based on some forums), why do you expect the
other party to do the legwork and come up with facts?
Please cite your sources, including statistics, about what portion
of players prefer the new WoD to the old one. Please account for
obvious potential flaws in the data (e.g. a moderated forum
dedicated to NuWoD won't have many Old Wod fans). Illustrate,
for completeness, with the net sales values and the before tax
profit figures the financial implications of the player
preferences.
Duh. :)
--
Regards,
Daneel
Brum
Really? This counts for nothing of course, but almost everybody I know
who RPG'ed VtM either still does it or quit. Never there was a
transition. And I don't know anyone doing nWoD here.
Personally I don't think its even possible to join the 2 backgrounds
together. When Gehenna came, we were told that VtES would go on with
the RPG background from 2004 back. I think it has been done in a good
way.
There is still lots of space for the game to grow, before call it a
day.
I was a VtM geek and I saw most of the books from VtM 1st Edition to
Gehenna, so I think IMHO there is a lot of things still to do, with
the source material.
And then they can start launching stuff from the cities that were not
big on the RPG (therefore don't have much source material), but are
big on VtES, with new Vampires, locations, etc.
Tiago
Vlad Chocul
of the nwod better it seems.
Regarding VTES, I'm of the opinion that the game doesn't have much
else to do unless they introduce some more drastic changes such as new
ways of ousting or something. How many more cards can be introduced
that raise/decrease bleed, stealth, intercept, and damage before every
discipline has access to everything? It just seems like new cards are
just variations on existing paired abilities at basic and superior.
I'd really like to see something really new that shakes up the game a
bit, not like Imbued level, but some cards that do something that no
existing card does now.
librarian
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT), Raziel <angel...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 27 Paź, 14:48, Wilsoros <davewilso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey White Wolf killed their amazing world and replaced it with an
>>> inferior product.
>>
>> Nope, new World of Darkness is not inferior. It's different. True,
>> oWoD was good, but nWoD is also good.
>>
>> Fact, that you like oWoD more does not make nWoD 'inferior'. Your
>> claim is stupid.
>
> Please realise that you are posting on a newsgroup that is dedicated
> to the last living OWoD game. :)
>
> Anyway, I also think that NuWoD is inferior. I did give it the
> benefit of doubt, and I actually found it to be more balanced, more
> consistent and to have a better system. The cross-over was also
> better supported. Everything meshed well together - all the things
> that could NOT be said about the OWoD.
>
> With all that said, the richness of the source material was somehow
> missing. I felt that if I burn my shelf of OWoD books, and fill
> that shelf with NuWoD books, the benefit would be marginal (if
> positive at all). I've found that despite (irrespective of? because
> of?) being unbalanced, clumsy and often controversial, OWoD was
> better suited for the mystery / gothic horror / angst kind of game.
>
>
This seems to sum up what I have heard from many - nuWoD has better
rules set, but oWoD is better background. When I owned a store, the new
WoD stuff sold not as well as the old stuff. But RPGs that aren't
called D&D were/are all on a downhill slide in stores anyway, so it's
hard to say if it was the nuWoD, or a general decrease in RPG sales.
best -
chris
XZealot
> I'd really like to see something really new that shakes up the game a
> bit, not like Imbued level, but some cards that do something that no
> existing card does now.
Play with events, lots of them
Brum
I always had the same thoughts. In fact I mused for a while to do a
campaign with the new rules and the old setting. But I digress.
Not liking the nWoD, I must say that the PDF advent has done real harm
to Pen & Paper RPGs. Everybody has laptops these days and in them you
can have all the books you might want in .pdf format.
That and online games, has given a blow in the head of tabletop games.
Tiago
Blooded Sand
Make combat a viable direct ousting mechanism.
Create something akin to diablerie on Meths, which if not prevented
against will oust said meth. Would have to be a D action to mesh with
current game set.
Raziel
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT), Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com>
I put impression to counter other people impression. If you have hard
facts, show them.
http://www.shadownessence.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5443&st=180
It's both nWoD and oWoD forum, so your irony is pointless.
I disagree that V:tM is more suited for this kind of game, both
systems are good in this - call it draw. And possibility to play with
the rules (due to better balance, and ability to play crossover game -
not really posible using oWoD) make nWOD better. Lack of metaplot (and
meths/ante who pull the string, true black hand, inconnu etc.) is
another thing that is done well. Decreased number of clans (and less
stereotypes about clans) is another good move. There are bad things,
but overall oWoD is inferior.
So why there was such outrage ? Well, right after V;tR release, there
was only 2 books of source material, which only glanced the issue.
James Coupe
>On Oct 27, 7:47�pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The majority of players seems to like nWoD more on some WoD forums
>> (old and new). Again you have knowlegle about that, or you simply
>> bluff ?
>
>Really? This counts for nothing of course, but almost everybody I know
>who RPG'ed VtM either still does it or quit. Never there was a
>transition. And I don't know anyone doing nWoD here.
It's actually plausible.
Thing is, as you say, a number of players just abandoned WoD wholesale
and went on to play other things. I'm sure many of us know some who did
that. They won't be on such forums. Similarly, those who stuck with
oWoD may well not hang out on the same forums. Why bother? Many of
them are full of nWoD stuff. Since there's no new canon to discuss, you
just get on with getting on.
This is the problem with cherry-picking sources without working out the
flaws and without presenting any actual data, then telling other people
(who were presenting anecdotes and said so) that *they're* bluffing.
Brum
Less clans is good? No story plot is good? Chaotic politics is good?
No social rules is good?
Storylines and Kindred Society are a big part of VtES. nWoD has
nothing of that. It's "lets role play Blade today and Underworld
tomorrow, because they are in diferent cities and with this game, we
can". There is no real connection between nothing.
Sorry, I need a good megaplot. It's a matter of taste.
So we would have a card game without a huge part of what makes VtES so
special.
I think this is a matter of taste. I know that nWoD expantions would
be ignored in Portugal. I think in the losts of other places too.
People like their Malkavians. And their law firms.
Meej
> By comparison on this board I'm one of the few that prefers the flavor
> of the nwod better it seems.
You're not alone, and I don't know whether it's "few" or not, except
that (probably) the majority will fall into the camp that they don't
give a hoot which flavor it follows, as long as it makes a better card
game. I've long felt that the old RPG was closed out because (IMHO)
it was starting to crumble under the weight of its own self-
contradicting, creativity-stifling, overblown cruft. oWoD VTM was
rarely about angst - it was "vampire superheroes" with an angst veneer
- and for true angst, I think the new system's city-specific, metaplot-
averse, paranoid feel plays up the angst much better.
That said, that's all only true for tabletop. And the oWoD had three
components: the tabletop RPG, the LARP, and the CCG. I think that a
lot of the drift folks have seen in nWoD has been pressure from the
LARP crowd, as that really does ask for a bigger, plot-heavy game with
more clearly defined roles and customs between cities, otherwise
players in the Camarilla organization don't have anything to do.
(That, and the fact that the nWoD as written in the books basically
*precludes* heavy travel, very old PCs that know their own history,
and many other things that Camarilla players seem to love.) So I
think that's where a lot of the changes come from.
Lastly, VTES probably is, to some extent, better served by the dense,
rich setting of oWoD; you're not really crafting a believable story,
on its own, so the fact that there's a bigger metaplot to tie into
helps. The huge, rich, diverse base of cruft and overblown, self-
contradicting detail that IMO so hampered the RPG (unless you were
into that) is exactly the sort of thing you want to use to build a
CCG.
So do I prefer nWoD to oWoD? Absolutely. For VTES? While I think a
nWoD VTES-2.0 or compatible could easily work (and provides a market
opportunity to address some other issues - draw in new audience,
provide a playable 2P version that's balanced, shorten the game
length, but still remain compatible with the 2-hour, 5-player, deep
strategy game we all love), I think oWoD's detail is actually a help
to VTES.
- D.J.
Raziel
> Less clans is good? No story plot is good? Chaotic politics is good?
> No social rules is good?
>
> Storylines and Kindred Society are a big part of VtES. nWoD has
> nothing of that. It's "lets role play Blade today and Underworld
> tomorrow, because they are in diferent cities and with this game, we
> can". There is no real connection between nothing.
> Sorry, I need a good megaplot. It's a matter of taste.
>
> So we would have a card game without a huge part of what makes VtES so
> special.
> I think this is a matter of taste. I know that nWoD expantions would
> be ignored in Portugal. I think in the losts of other places too.
> People like their Malkavians. And their law firms.
Less clans is good. no metaplot is good. More diversity in politic is
good. There are social rules, if you dont belive - read it again.
Cities are varied, it allows more freedom in creating one. There are
no Justicars who out of sudden want to investigate something - no
camarilla to draw forces from other towns to punish putsh.
There IS kindred society - i don't know how you missed it. There are
storylines - local storylines - this does not make them any worse. I
would say it's way better. No real connections allow storyteller to
personalise fractions, and add mistery - in oWoD nothing was really
secret - everybody and their mother known about true black hand,
abominations, inconnu, antedeluvians and caine, methusalehs who pull
the strings and stuff.
Metaplot is ****. Sure, it's mattern of taste - i hate it.
Not true. If we are talking about nuVtes, it could add more depth to
city politics. In my idea, player would be ancient from east coast of
usa, and he'll manipulate minions from that region. There will be more
diversity in city titles - in one tow there will be: Prince with 3/4
votes, Seneshal (missed in VtES entirely) with 2/3 votes, five
Primogens (each clan have one, so Daeva Primogen of Boston does not
contest with Daeva Primogen of New York or Mekhet Primogen of Boston)
worth 2 votes. There will be 1 vote worth title of Regent (city not
specified, or perhaps it should be - but it's not unique anyway). In
RPG, Primogen was position of power, in vtes it's garbage - nuVtes
have a chance to correct this error.
I do not want nuWoD expansion - do new game, or leave it alone -
mixing those would be horrible, even worse than hunters expansion (i
hate Imbued :>).
Vlad Chocul
Okay, but I've never really like ccg elements that have a good
potential to help other players via global effects. I've also always,
possibly incorrectly, presumed that events, Gehenna stuff, play best
off imbued which I hate.
Blooded Sand's suggestion of a viable combat oust is something more
like it. Consider this a very preliminary suggestion that I know would
never happen, but similar to a meth diablerie, something like a card
that sets up another oust like 'if you burn or diablerize in total x
number of minions where x is equal to something or other, oust your
prey.'
Also just to throw my two cents at the discussion, I have to admit
that I've always preferred the stage to be set, but like to write the
story from that point. The flavor and freedom the nwod offers seems
less as mentioned, stifling and also, to me, less cartoony, than owod.
It definitely has enough structure, politically, socially, and
thematically, but with a more streamlined and mature vibe. Not to say
I didn't like owod, because I do, but I'm definitely in favor of the
change to requiem. CCGwise however, I couldn't care less. The game is
good if a bit stale for me, but what might've been cool if ever there
were a nwod variant, would be for the players to really shape the
storyline with different story prizes, player designed cards for
winning, major choices, reflected in the sets, similar to l5r. But I
don't know how feasible that is.
Matthew T. Morgan
> Make combat a viable direct ousting mechanism.
> Create something akin to diablerie on Meths, which if not prevented
> against will oust said meth. Would have to be a D action to mesh with
> current game set.
Hah!
"I oust you as a (D) action."
"Uh...guess I'd better block."
Forgotten Labyrinth/Daring the Dawn/Horrific Contenance/etc.
"This new rule sucks."
Frederick Scott
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.0...@fnord.io.com...
(But at least we finish games more often.)
Daneel
wrote:
> On 27 Paź, 22:04, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT), Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The majority of players seems to like nWoD more on some WoD forums
>> > (old and new). Again you have knowlegle about that, or you simply
>> > bluff ?
>>
>> These two sentences look weird together.
>>
>> However, if you wish to use arbitrary arguments (like your impression
>> of what players like based on some forums), why do you expect the
>> other party to do the legwork and come up with facts?
>>
>> Please cite your sources, including statistics, about what portion
>> of players prefer the new WoD to the old one. Please account for
>> obvious potential flaws in the data (e.g. a moderated forum
>> dedicated to NuWoD won't have many Old Wod fans). Illustrate,
>> for completeness, with the net sales values and the before tax
>> profit figures the financial implications of the player
>> preferences.
>>
>> Duh. :)
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Daneel
>
> I put impression to counter other people impression. If you have hard
> facts, show them.
And again.
You seem to find it convenient to push the burden of proof on others.
> http://www.shadownessence.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5443&st=180
> It's both nWoD and oWoD forum, so your irony is pointless.
What irony?
> I disagree that V:tM is more suited for this kind of game, both
> systems are good in this - call it draw. And possibility to play with
> the rules (due to better balance, and ability to play crossover game -
> not really posible using oWoD) make nWOD better. Lack of metaplot (and
> meths/ante who pull the string, true black hand, inconnu etc.) is
> another thing that is done well. Decreased number of clans (and less
> stereotypes about clans) is another good move. There are bad things,
> but overall oWoD is inferior.
You are of course entitled to your opinion. With which I disagree, as
noted in the other post. Based on your posts, you seem to have an
incomplete understanding of the V:tM background material.
> So why there was such outrage ? Well, right after V;tR release, there
> was only 2 books of source material, which only glanced the issue.
--
Regards,
Daneel
Raziel
>
> And again.
>
> You seem to find it convenient to push the burden of proof on others.
>
> noted in the other post. Based on your posts, you seem to have an
> incomplete understanding of the V:tM background material.
He wanted to show that nWoD was selling worse than oWoD, i asked for a
proof. Quite simple, you know ?
You perhaps have complete understanding. May i ask you about gehenna
plots starring Lilith ? You don't know ? What a shame. My
understanding is quite good, better than majority of this group
members. So please, show my lack of knowledge.
James Coupe
>He wanted to show that nWoD was selling worse than oWoD, i asked for a
>proof. Quite simple, you know ?
I didn't want to show that it was selling worse. I said I'd heard
anecdotes from game stores that it was selling worse.
You seem to be leaping from someone presenting an anecdote (that was
explicitly noted as such) to demanding a rigorous spreadsheet of sales
over time. That's just dumb, you know?
James Coupe
>Make combat a viable direct ousting mechanism.
>Create something akin to diablerie on Meths, which if not prevented
>against will oust said meth. Would have to be a D action to mesh with
>current game set.
The problem with new ousting mechanisms is that the very simple balance
at the core of V:TES is between pool spent and pool left.
- If I spend too little pool, I won't be able to take enough actions to
oust my prey.
- If I spend too much pool, when someone can sneak a damaging action
through, I may be too vulnerable.
This is one of the core differences that was implemented into V:TES to
make it different from Magic (which has mana for paying costs, and life
for staying alive).
It's for this reason that I'm not a fan of Brinksmanship, nor the
similar change in rules in the old Sabbat rulesheet.
Wilsoros
Let me try your argument technique: Your claim is stupid.
There I win right?
Decreased number of clans, ok technically true, but are you aware of
Bloodlines? There are way more bloodlines than there ever were
clans. You can say that the new material is better, and I can say
that the old material is better and we can dance all day, and get
absolutely no where. The sales are the deciding factor, without sales
data we can't know which is selling better and therefore more
successful for WW, which is what Vtes is being challenged on in this
thread, how many sales does it generate. Good or bad, the back story
is much lighter, the epic feel to the world is minimal, those were by
design. The font used in the books is wretched, period. Try reading
it from beyond a foot, you can't.
Fact: Justin Achilli wrote many times that the NWOD was an all new
brand new game, he stated he started with a blank sheet of paper, yet
even Chicago by night just moved the vampires around a little bit and
copied Steve Brown's vision of the city. Don't believe me? check out
Chicago by Night 1st or 2nd Ed.
As to more material for Vtes? Dark Ages is untapped, Kindred of the
East is untapped, before you say they can't be mixed, see the Imbued.
There are many other card types like Villein and Vessel which can be
added to modify the meta game against Stealth Bleed and Bloat Boat.
Oh again, Raz Your claim is stupid.
Claim without merit on internet = FACTZ
Wilsoros
Also Shadowessence is a very niche board, the voting numbers are quite
small in your poll, 66 people for VtR, 25 VtM, the board originally
was a board devoted to WRAITH, that isn't Vampire the Masquerade. The
main focus of that site was WRAITH, not Vampire the Masquerade.
Internet Crappy Statistics = FACTZ
Oh your claim is stupid.
Wilsoros
> It's both nWoD and oWoD forum, so your irony is pointless.
irony
- 5 dictionary results
i⋅ro⋅ny
1 /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
Show IPA
Use irony in a Sentence
See web results for irony
See images of irony
–noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its
literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had
to work all weekend.
2. Literature.
a. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot
development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is
actually or ostensibly stated.
b. (esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as
to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses,
attitudes, etc., esp. as a means of indicating detachment from a
subject, theme, or emotion.
3. Socratic irony.
4. dramatic irony.
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been,
expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
7. an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.
8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition,
quality, etc.
so your claim is stupid.
Vlad Chocul
> As to more material for Vtes? Dark Ages is untapped, Kindred of the
> East is untapped, before you say they can't be mixed, see the Imbued.
> There are many other card types like Villein and Vessel which can be
> added to modify the meta game against Stealth Bleed and Bloat Boat.
There's plenty of thematic material for sure. My main concern with the
state of the game is the stagnancy of mechanics and rules. Imbued is a
controversial issue because while they did fit into the game, my
observation suggests that a notable portion of the players don't like
"how" they fit in. I hate them myself. I think the main thing I've
been finding is that new cards are reiterations of existing cards but
don't bring anything really new. The possibility of branching out
source material like east or dark ages is cool, except that it'd be
more of the same +1 stealth vampire, card that ups bleed, or card that
gives a maneuver or press. How many times can you repackage the same
things?
The game has the distinction of very little power creep which is good
in not making older cards obsolete. But because mechanics don't
change, no new relevant keywords are created, the game I feel, is
running in circles. Even spreading the mechanics across disciplines
doesn't help because eventually you have no clan distinction because
everyone has access to everything. There has to be a way to balance
the resource expenditure issue that James Coupe mentions, with some
new mechanics and decktypes with a new way to compete.
Kushiel
> Let me try your argument technique: Your claim is stupid.
>
> There I win right?
Not yet. First you have to ask him a question and then, before he has
a chance to respond, act as though he's answered. Then reply to that
made-up answer in the same post in which you asked the question. Like
this:
On Oct 28, 3:28 pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You perhaps have complete understanding. May i ask you about gehenna
> plots starring Lilith ? You don't know ? What a shame.
Until you do that, you won't have proven that you've mastered Raziel's
rhetorical techniques.
John Eno
Raziel
> Let me try your argument technique: Your claim is stupid.
>
> There I win right?
No, you lost.
> Decreased number of clans, ok technically true, but are you aware of
> Bloodlines? There are way more bloodlines than there ever were
> clans. You can say that the new material is better, and I can say
> that the old material is better and we can dance all day, and get
> absolutely no where. The sales are the deciding factor, without sales
> data we can't know which is selling better and therefore more
> successful for WW, which is what Vtes is being challenged on in this
> thread, how many sales does it generate. Good or bad, the back story
> is much lighter, the epic feel to the world is minimal, those were by
> design. The font used in the books is wretched, period. Try reading
> it from beyond a foot, you can't.
Sure we can dance all day. It could lead somewhere, if you would
listen actually. Or nowhere, if you keep your current stance.
Bloodlines in V:tR are still members of parent clans, and share their
flaw. There are way more bloodlines, but on the other hand they are
scarce. Infinite number of bloodlines is better for CCG as it allow
justify unusual discipline selection, and is better for V:tR as it
allow better customisation of the city players and unknown factor.
Less epic story is mixed blessing, but in no way it's flaw for V:tR,
for CCG it's better, as it allow focussing on the city's power
structure in detail (unlike current V;TES half-arsed approach in this
area).
Did i said it does not have flaws (font)? Sure it sucks.
> Fact: Justin Achilli wrote many times that the NWOD was an all new
> brand new game, he stated he started with a blank sheet of paper, yet
> even Chicago by night just moved the vampires around a little bit and
> copied Steve Brown's vision of the city. Don't believe me? check out
> Chicago by Night 1st or 2nd Ed.
Didn't read it, but it's possible. Even if, it does not make nWoD
worse - it's based on V;TR after all - here it seems literaly.
> As to more material for Vtes? Dark Ages is untapped, Kindred of the
> East is untapped, before you say they can't be mixed, see the Imbued.
> There are many other card types like Villein and Vessel which can be
> added to modify the meta game against Stealth Bleed and Bloat Boat.
>
> Oh again, Raz Your claim is stupid.
>
> Claim without merit on internet = FACTZ
DA are already mixed in - but not in the way you described it here.
KotE - sure, it could be done. I would not like it, but could be done.
Mage and Werewolves as crypt cards too.
Again, you dont bothered to reply to my claim. Try harder.
Read again about shadowessence. Try harder.
@John Eno: I was wrong about it ? I don't think so. He don't know a
**** about WoD, and dare to say that i dont understand the lore,
without any kind of proof. I just did the same to this punk.
Daneel
wrote:
> On 28 Paź, 20:00, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
Sigh. I'll humor you once more (perhaps the latent troll in me want
out... :) ).
The statement that got me to feel that you perhaps don't full "get"
the V:tM setting was in another post. It read:
> Cities are varied, it allows more freedom in creating one. There are
> no Justicars who out of sudden want to investigate something - no
> camarilla to draw forces from other towns to punish putsh.
>
> There IS kindred society - i don't know how you missed it. There are
> storylines - local storylines - this does not make them any worse. I
> would say it's way better. No real connections allow storyteller to
> personalise fractions, and add mistery - in oWoD nothing was really
> secret - everybody and their mother known about true black hand,
> abominations, inconnu, antedeluvians and caine, methusalehs who pull
> the strings and stuff.
The source material in V:tM really does have a lot of stuff about
elders pulling strings, about powerful kindred engaged in an endless
jyhad, etc. But while this is apparent to the *readers*, it is not
necessarily so to the *characters*. In fact, your average Camarilla
V:tM city looked probably quite like an independent fiefdom, where
the prince had all but absolute power.
The fact that there were story elements the storyteller could readily
draw on - e.g. invoking a powerful justicar figure if things got
awry; invoking an exotic sect or bloodline to spice things up; using
some material from another Storyteller game, e.g. Wraiths - gave the
storyteller ammunition, without severely limiting him.
I've always preferred to storytell / play fresh vampires, they are much
closer to humans, easier to understand, more angst and less kewlness.
From a neonate's point of view, the Prince is equal to the sole ruler
of the territory, and more powerful kindred - even if they pull the
strings from behind - are seldom more than a backdrop.
(By the way, in this sense, I don't particularly like the tone some of
the canon novels set. They went for "kewl" and "über" over going for
the more human side of the perils of the recently embraced, which is
IMHO much closer to the theme of the game. But this is a general issue
with published RPG noves, I can think of only a couple of examples to
the contrary, the Shadowrun novel 2XS and the AD&D novel Spellfire
being two of them - maybe clanbook Gangrel comes close from the V:tM
novels I've read.)
Of course, if you play elders, then basic knowledge of the sects, and
the hierarchies within the sects, will be known to you, plus you may
have a glimpse at some global conspiracy. But unless you want to play
Methuselahs, real knowledge would probably elude your character.
--
Regards,
Daneel
James Coupe
>@John Eno: I was wrong about it ? I don't think so. He don't know a
>**** about WoD, and dare to say that i dont understand the lore,
>without any kind of proof. I just did the same to this punk.
This isn't Twitter.
If you want to respond to a point someone makes, please hit "Reply" on
that post. It makes it significantly easier to follow a conversation.
Raziel
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:28:00 -0700 (PDT), Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com>
It's obvious it's linked to players and storytellers, and not to
vampires in this fictional world. In this world most people don't know
that vampires are real. About using other games to spice up things, in
V;TR you could do it too - but you can also use actual power, if you
want to. In V:tM crossovers are, as noted many times (if you want to
follow the rules) more or less awkard. Also about cities, you could
create similiar conditions (or drasticaly different) in V:tR, while in
V:tM you are more or less forced to play similiar ones.
> I've always preferred to storytell / play fresh vampires, they are much
> closer to humans, easier to understand, more angst and less kewlness.
> From a neonate's point of view, the Prince is equal to the sole ruler
> of the territory, and more powerful kindred - even if they pull the
> strings from behind - are seldom more than a backdrop.
>
> (By the way, in this sense, I don't particularly like the tone some of
> the canon novels set. They went for "kewl" and "über" over going for
> the more human side of the perils of the recently embraced, which is
> IMHO much closer to the theme of the game. But this is a general issue
> with published RPG noves, I can think of only a couple of examples to
> the contrary, the Shadowrun novel 2XS and the AD&D novel Spellfire
> being two of them - maybe clanbook Gangrel comes close from the V:tM
> novels I've read.)
>
> Of course, if you play elders, then basic knowledge of the sects, and
> the hierarchies within the sects, will be known to you, plus you may
> have a glimpse at some global conspiracy. But unless you want to play
> Methuselahs, real knowledge would probably elude your character.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Daneel
Many times in oWoD there are stories about vampire superheroes. What
more, rules support this kind of behaviour.
Even some beings with less than 1000 years have more than glimpse at
one of the global conspiracy. But that is not the point - point is -
in v:tm players more or less know metaplot. And it's always similiar,
there is most of the time camarilla vs sabbat animosity, clan vs clan
animosity, clans fill mostly the same niche.
Kushiel
> @John Eno: I was wrong about it ? I don't think so. He don't know a
> **** about WoD, and dare to say that i dont understand the lore,
> without any kind of proof. I just did the same to this punk.
You completely missed my point there.
John Eno
Blooded Sand
Would fairly obviously not be a single action. Something more akin to
if you get 6 successive d actions against your prey, he gets a counter
for each action, x counters oust you
echia...@yahoo.com
take a look at the recent article they put up on their web-site:
The Future of White Wolf from ICC 2009
http://www.white-wolf.com/index.php?line=news&articleid=1172
I can certainly see some parallels with their approach to VTES.
(Taking a more hands-off approach and letting the fans have more
control. Though that could also be seen as a savvy way to redirect
resources.)
They do state: "we’ll never lock into one form of delivering our books
to you—so you don’t have to worry about that." So it seems unlikely
that they're go 100% digital as some have surmised.
Another snippet: "We’re giving the reigns back to you. You will remain
the official World of Darkness fan club, but we’re not going to tell
you which of our games to LARP or how to do it. Some of you will
undoubtedly return to the Old World of Darkness. That is awesome."
And as a random bit of nostalgia, anyone else recall the old,
notoriously complex, ranking system for VTES? For those who didn't
play in that era, it was reminiscent of the point system for Chess
(where you gain or lose points based on the ranking of your opponents
every game). I can still vividly recall Robyn's continuous frustration
(under this system tournament results needed to be in sequentially,
since they would affect the rating of the player in following events).
Ah, the old days.... ;-)
Other things I almost miss:
- The constant trolling of Andrew Davidson (who'd always explain why
Shadowfist was so superior to VTES)
- Interesting threads like the ones about racial diversity and
stereotyped representations among crypt cards. (I think White Wolf has
actually done quite well on this front in recent years).
librarian
>
>
> - Interesting threads like the ones about racial diversity and
> stereotyped representations among crypt cards. (I think White Wolf has
> actually done quite well on this front in recent years).
There is the incidence of midgets in the US population is .00166 (about
1 in every 750 people??!?). And only 1 midget in 1273 cards...
Looks like we are due for another small kindred.
best -
chris
Brum
Of all 1288 vampire cards, many are Non US. :)
And I counted 41 ADV, so there really are 1247.
Tiago
Raziel
There are 43 advanced - Yazid Tamari and Menele have theirs too.
Also there are many european and african vampires. There are also at
least one asian vampire (Olivier Thrance), possibly more, i don't
remember others background. Dont be do so US centric.
echia...@yahoo.com
Ah! You sir, are incorrect.
In addition to Midget the Malkavian Antitribu, there is another! Lord
Ephraim Wainwright (whose nickname is the "Imp") is another little
person (though I think he's technically a dwarf, IIRC). So 2 / 1273
(or 1288) means that little people are slightly *overrepresented*....
suoli
> There is the incidence of midgets in the US population is .00166 (about
> 1 in every 750 people??!?). And only 1 midget in 1273 cards...
You forgot about the pygmy vampires, as illustrated by Leif Jones.
Daneel
<echia...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 10:34ï¿œam, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > - Interesting threads like the ones about racial diversity and
>> > stereotyped representations among crypt cards. (I think White Wolf has
>> > actually done quite well on this front in recent years).
>>
>> There is the incidence of midgets in the US population is .00166 (about
>> 1 in every 750 people??!?). ï¿œAnd only 1 midget in 1273 cards...
>>
>> Looks like we are due for another small kindred.
>
>
> Ah! You sir, are incorrect.
>
> In addition to Midget the Malkavian Antitribu, there is another! Lord
> Ephraim Wainwright (whose nickname is the "Imp") is another little
> person (though I think he's technically a dwarf, IIRC). So 2 / 1273
> (or 1288) means that little people are slightly *overrepresented*....
Does Fidus, the Shrunken Beast count?
--
Regards,
Daneel
XZealot
> So, the total lack of promotion on this new set seems to indicate that
> WW is finally starting to pull back support for VTES. Does this mean
> that they may in fact be considering winding the whole VTES line down?
>
> I mean, it's pure rumor mongering, but I find it *reeaaaly* strange that
> there is *NO* promo on WW's site, even though it is supposed to release
> in what, 3 weeks or less?
>
> On a related topic, how much longer can LSJ be the netrep/lead designer
> for the game? I don't think indefinitely.
I do :)
> If it was me, I would nominate James Coupe to be his replacement, if it
> ever came to that...
I think there are plenty of good candidates, but let's not worry about
that bridge until we have to cross it.
Lainn
special olympics of arguments.
< There are way more bloodlines, but on the other hand they are
scarce.>
This statement is false.
There are only a few bloodlines that actually constitute as rare, the
famed Bohagandhe as one of them. The TT game mechanic, in point of
fact makes it very easy to become a member of a bloodline, as you can
do so at BP 2 with a proper avus.
That leads my my final point, as far as the bloodlines statement is
concerned, read the source material, find the bloodlines that have the
word/s rare, few, not so many, etc etc. Use them in a new card game
designed by you to play with your friends. Have fun.
Leave the V:TES to the rest of us who may want to see change, but
change that conforms to the OWoD setting
Risen cards as Wraith allies FTW.
Raziel
Did you even care to notice, that i do not want incorporating nWoD to
V:tes. And while vamp can become member of any bloodline from BP 2+,
not many do this. Most vampires in fact are not from any bloodlines.
And bloodlines are scarce, many of them are local - and most vampires
know only few types of bloodlines at all. So this statement is true.
L2R.