Waiting too long on Delaying Tactics....
mrjay1000
on my prey and one on my grand-prey. I have the votes to pass the
referendum after the edge and vote cards from other methuselahs have
been pitched. It is currently passing by, say, six votes. My prey has
a Delaying Tactics in hand, having seen my hand with its Awe and Voter
Captivation, waiting for the vote modifier to Delay it. I ask if there
are any other votes at the table that wish to be played. Shakes of
heads from around the table. I look at my prey and ask him
specifically if there was anything else. Again, he shakes his head no.
With that being done, and not having played my Awe, I call the
referendum passed by six votes and play my Voter Captivation. My
grand-prey loses his pool, I put four on Arika, I gain two pool, and my
prey sits there staring at his cards. I remind him to take his pool
damage. He then plays his Delaying Tactics saying he was waiting on me
to play vote modifiers.
Is it too late to play his Delaying Tactics since I asked the table if
there were any other votes to be played and him specifically if there
was anything else? Had he waited too long and allowed the window of
opportunity to pass to Delay the vote?
Should he have been allowed to play his Delaying Tactics after the vote
was declared as passed, even though he was just waiting to see if I was
going to play vote modifiers?
Thanks
Frederick Scott
"mrjay1000" <mrja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123268688....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Let's say Arika, with three blood, was to call a Con Agg, putting four
> on my prey and one on my grand-prey. I have the votes to pass the
> referendum after the edge and vote cards from other methuselahs have
> been pitched. It is currently passing by, say, six votes. My prey has
> a Delaying Tactics in hand, having seen my hand with its Awe and Voter
> Captivation, waiting for the vote modifier to Delay it. I ask if there
> are any other votes at the table that wish to be played. Shakes of
> heads from around the table. I look at my prey and ask him
> specifically if there was anything else. Again, he shakes his head no.
> With that being done, and not having played my Awe, I call the
> referendum passed by six votes and play my Voter Captivation. My
> grand-prey loses his pool, I put four on Arika, I gain two pool, and my
> prey sits there staring at his cards. I remind him to take his pool
> damage. He then plays his Delaying Tactics saying he was waiting on me
> to play vote modifiers.
>
> Is it too late to play his Delaying Tactics since I asked the table if
> there were any other votes to be played and him specifically if there
> was anything else? Had he waited too long and allowed the window of
> opportunity to pass to Delay the vote?
Yes. If you asked if there was anything else and he said no, then the
answer is no. There's no such thing as a "no-oops-I-mean-yes" answer to
that question. He can respond to you're playing Awe if he likes but if
he chooses to do it only in response to playing Awe then if you don't
play Awe, he doesn't play D.T.
Otherwise, this would be what I'd call an "anti-slap" situation - the
opposit of a "slap" situation giving advantage to the first methuselah
to respond to an event. In this case, you'd have players trying to
outwait each other, demanding that an issue which has been ended be
reopened so they can always get the last word in.
My $0.02 opinion. IANLSJ.
Fred
James Coupe
mrjay1000 <mrja...@yahoo.com> writes:
<A referendum passes, with requests for anyone playing any more votes>
>Is it too late to play his Delaying Tactics since I asked the table if
>there were any other votes to be played and him specifically if there
>was anything else? Had he waited too long and allowed the window of
>opportunity to pass to Delay the vote?
Once the referendum has successfully passed, he can't play it. The
sticky point is whether he understood you were about to go to passing
the referendum. (Most players I know would have interrupted you at the
point you declared the vote passed, and started asking people to burn
pool and the like, rather than staring at their cards.)
To avoid problems in the future, you might want to phrase things like:
"Anything more on the referendum from anyone? ... Okay then, the vote
passes? ... The vote passes."
Or just drop in a request for Delaying Tactics or Vox Domini or whatever
from players at some point. You don't have to do that as the acting
player, if you don't want to, but someone else on the table might.
Clarification (so long as it doesn't make people want to stab you in the
face) isn't a bad thing.)
>Should he have been allowed to play his Delaying Tactics after the vote
>was declared as passed, even though he was just waiting to see if I was
>going to play vote modifiers?
If it was understood by people that you were going to declare the vote
passed then, yes, it's too late. However, you can't force a person to
skip a phase by rushing. But if you're not rushing and he's had plenty
of time to play it and hasn't said "Hang on, I'm thinking" or anything
like that, it's pretty much too late to play it, yes.
However, if a player wants to throw in a card just before it's declared
passed then they *do* have that right - like they could play a bounce
card just before you declare a bleed successful etc. If he really is
just waiting to see if you play more vote push before he cancels the
vote, I personally would:
- let him get away with it once
- specifically refer to Delaying Tactics like effects on votes in the
future, until he plays more sensibly.
It's like playing master cards and asking for Sudden Reversals etc.
It's not specifically required, but it helps avoid having to ask these
questions in the first place.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Fabio "Sooner"
I guess the question here is that you didn't announce that YOU was
done with that referendum. Asking if *others* have any more votes does
not automatically end the referendum; *everybody* has to declare that
the referendum is over for them, including yourself.
On the other hand, it woud help if your fella asked for you if you're
finished with playing cards in that referendum. So then you would have
to make a decision of wasting Awe or not, and then he could play DT.
I usually ask "So has the referendum passed/failed?" before playing
anything that's after the referendum just because of Delaying Tactics.
People should have a window of opportunity to play it if you decide
not to waste action modifiers.
You can't just play Voter at the first chance and thus prevent anyone
from playing DT.
best,
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
----------------------------------------------------
V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor
echia...@yahoo.com
Fabio "Sooner" wrote:
> I guess the question here is that you didn't announce that YOU was
> done with that referendum. Asking if *others* have any more votes does
> not automatically end the referendum; *everybody* has to declare that
> the referendum is over for them, including yourself.
But then again, as the acting player, no one can play any other effects
until after you have had the chance to play yours. Thus by asking other
players if they want to play anything, you are already passing on the
chance to play your own. (Similarly, if you are acting and in combat
and you ask your opponent if he wants to manuever, that implicitly
means that you are choosing not to manuever and now the opportunity
passes to him).
The only minor flaw in the situation provided, is that the acting
player asked for any other *votes*, not any other effects in general.
It could be argued that the other player declined to cast other votes
but had not yet declined to use any other effects.
- Eric Chiang
LSJ
There is no order to the referendum -- it is free form.
Once everyone is done, then it is concluded.
It sounds as if everyone was not done.
--
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Johannes Walch
I am not sure. They allready started taking the blood on the vampires
and off their pool. It seems also that this was done not too hastily.
Therefore I would say the referendum is finished and it is too late to
play Delaying Tactics. What modifiers should he play anyway after Voter
Captivation.
To be sure however the player calling the vote should have asked after
the Voter Captivation if he wants to play something else.
--
johannes walch
LSJ
mrjay says above that he did not. He just sat there staring at his cards.
> It seems also that this was done not too hastily.
I didn't say it was. I said that, based on mrjay's original description,
not everyone was done.
> Therefore I would say the referendum is finished and it is too late to
> play Delaying Tactics. What modifiers should he play anyway after Voter
> Captivation.
Or rather, mrjay played the Voter Captivation before the referendum
was concluded. (i.e., before the effects had been resolved).
At least, according to the original description.
Sten During
>>
>> I am not sure. They allready started taking the blood on the vampires
>> and off their pool.
>
>
> mrjay says above that he did not. He just sat there staring at his cards.
>
>> It seems also that this was done not too hastily.
>
>
> I didn't say it was. I said that, based on mrjay's original description,
> not everyone was done.
>
>> Therefore I would say the referendum is finished and it is too late to
>> play Delaying Tactics. What modifiers should he play anyway after
>> Voter Captivation.
>
>
> Or rather, mrjay played the Voter Captivation before the referendum
> was concluded. (i.e., before the effects had been resolved).
> At least, according to the original description.
>
Or, at any rate. Let's assume that it was ok to get to the time-window
when Voter Captivation could be played. If so, then DT was moot anyway
as DT can't be played after VC.
As I see it, it was either too early to play VC or too late to play DL.
Sten During
Johannes Walch
> Or, at any rate. Let's assume that it was ok to get to the time-window
> when Voter Captivation could be played. If so, then DT was moot anyway
> as DT can't be played after VC.
> As I see it, it was either too early to play VC or too late to play DL.
Really? I always thought DT was playable after VC. Can you clarify on
this LSJ?
--
johannes walch
Johannes Walch
Of course Sten is right. VC is after the referendum. Got kinda confused
over all the timing things.
--
johannes walch
mrjay1000
*snip*
I ask if there are any other votes at the table that wish to be played.
Shakes of heads from around the table. I look at my prey and ask him
specifically if there was anything else. Again, he shakes his head no.
*snip*
So, after my prey saying he had nothing else, the referendum passed and
half of those affected lost their pool. It took him until after I had
put four in Arika, gained two pool, my predator lost his pool, AND
after I reminded him to lose his pool before he played his DT--almost a
full ten seconds afterward. He even stated that he was waiting for me
to play my Awe. He declined having anything else to play. Now, not
having asked anyone else specifically if there was anything else that
they wished to play, I could understand if one of the other players
played DT, but it wasn't one of the others. It was him. He declined
"anything else." Doesn't that decline DT and "anything else?"
LSJ
Yes.
Daneel
wrote:
> mrjay1000 wrote:
>> Actually, from the original description:
>>
>> *snip*
>> I ask if there are any other votes at the table that wish to be played.
>> Shakes of heads from around the table. I look at my prey and ask him
>> specifically if there was anything else. Again, he shakes his head no.
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>> So, after my prey saying he had nothing else, the referendum passed and
>> half of those affected lost their pool. It took him until after I had
>> put four in Arika, gained two pool, my predator lost his pool, AND
>> after I reminded him to lose his pool before he played his DT--almost a
>> full ten seconds afterward. He even stated that he was waiting for me
>> to play my Awe. He declined having anything else to play. Now, not
>> having asked anyone else specifically if there was anything else that
>> they wished to play, I could understand if one of the other players
>> played DT, but it wasn't one of the others. It was him. He declined
>> "anything else." Doesn't that decline DT and "anything else?"
>
> Yes.
Okay, just to make it clear: The acting player, by asking "are there any
more votes being played" basically states that unless someone plays
another vote effect, he is not going to use any more vote effects. By
asking "anything else [before the referendum passes]", he is basically
stating that he is not going to use any more effects [until the
referendum passes] unless someone is playing an effect.
Correct?
--
Bye,
Daneel
LSJ
> Okay, just to make it clear: The acting player, by asking "are there any
> more votes being played" basically states that unless someone plays
> another vote effect, he is not going to use any more vote effects. By
> asking "anything else [before the referendum passes]", he is basically
> stating that he is not going to use any more effects [until the
> referendum passes] unless someone is playing an effect.
>
> Correct?
No. Voting is free-form.
Once everyone agrees that's it's over, it's over.
In the example, everyone had been asked directly if they were done,
and each affirmed that he or she was done.
Daneel
wrote:
> Daneel wrote:
>> Okay, just to make it clear: The acting player, by asking "are there any
>> more votes being played" basically states that unless someone plays
>> another vote effect, he is not going to use any more vote effects. By
>> asking "anything else [before the referendum passes]", he is basically
>> stating that he is not going to use any more effects [until the
>> referendum passes] unless someone is playing an effect.
>>
>> Correct?
>
> No. Voting is free-form.
> Once everyone agrees that's it's over, it's over.
>
> In the example, everyone had been asked directly if they were done,
> and each affirmed that he or she was done.
So can the acting player, based on that information, choose to play further
effects of his choosing? That sounds a bit odd, as it seems to provide a
great benefit to the acting minion's controller without providing a
corresponding offset benefit to the other players (as provided by the
procedures for playing action modifiers and reactions, or handling
pre-range cards in combat, etc.).
--
Bye,
Daneel
James Coupe
writes:
>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:54:04 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>wrote:
>> Once everyone agrees that's it's over, it's over.
>>
>> In the example, everyone had been asked directly if they were done,
>> and each affirmed that he or she was done.
>
>So can the acting player, based on that information, choose to play further
> effects of his choosing? That sounds a bit odd, as it seems to provide a
> great benefit to the acting minion's controller without providing a
> corresponding offset benefit to the other players (as provided by the
> procedures for playing action modifiers and reactions, or handling
> pre-range cards in combat, etc.).
Anyone can choose to play effects at any time, until the referendum is
passed (or failed). The rulebook provides a handy way of dealing with
this, if necessary - a time limit - to avoid unseemly "No, you say",
"No, you say" fights.
The conduct of voting is entirely free-form. Anyone can use effects in
any order. Once everyone agrees it's over, it's done.
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6
740648dd3fee875?hl=en&>
The Shorbs
I remind him to take his pool
> damage. He then plays his Delaying Tactics saying he was waiting on me
> to play vote modifiers.
He should man up, lose his pool, then rush Arika into the ground. It
works well.
And maybe read the rulebook again.
best -
chris
--
ino...@ix.netcom.com
Tammy Shorb 5'7"
Alexander Shorb 3'10"
Benjamin Shorb 3'3"
Chris Shorb 5'11"