Salubri/!Salubri deck, with spoilers! Endless bleed! Righteous Unstopable Combat Vengeance!!
Matt
would like some input. We have a fairly different metagame, the
results of which mean we're all making decks entirely out of the
vampires in bloodlines. The one I'm working on is a Salubri/!Salubri
deck.
I wasn't expecting this before the cards came out, but it looks like
it's going to be an endless bleed deck. Strangely enough both Valeren
and Obeah give you minor bleed bonuses, and great ways to untap.
Valeren gives,
Burning touch:
Thaum
Strike: 1 damage. This damage cannot be prevented by cards that
require Fortitude
val
If this action is blocked, the blocking minion burns one blood or life
before combat begins. Any minion currently attempting to block may now
choose not to block.
VAL:
+1 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another action
modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.
and
Rayzeel's Song:
ani
Burn 1 blood to untap an ally.
val
(D) Bleed with +1 bleed.
VAL
+1 stealth action. Add 1 life from the blood bank to an ally that has
fewer life than his or her starting amount
Obeah gives
Spirit Marionette:
dom
(D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
obe
(D) Bleed at +1 bleed, and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey
(even if the target of the bleed is changed).
OBE
+1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion until
the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he
or she must hunt.
Panacea helps you untap: great with freak drive
+1 stealth action
aus
This vampire burns 1 blood to untap a younger vampire.
obe
Add 1 life to an ally who has fewer life than his or her starting
amount.
OBE
As above, and untap that ally at the end of the turn.
Neutral Guard is an ok power with a few effects
cost 1
Only usable when this vampire announces an action
for
Vampires must pay 1 blood to attempt to block this action.
obe
For the remainder of this action, when this vampire is in a combat,
the range is automatically long; skip the Determine Range step of each
round.
OBE
As above, and allies and younger vampires cannot block this action.
Repulsion is permanent, one time stealth,
pre
Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. If this
action is blocked, the acting vampire gets 1 optional maneuver; only
usalbe to maneuver to long range during the resulting combat.
obe
+1 stealth.
OBE
Put this card on this vampire. This vamipre gets +1 stealth. Burn this
card if this vampire goes to torpor. This vampire cannot have or play
another Repulsion.
There is also a !Salubri action, good for three more bleeds.
+1 stealth action
Usable by a tapped Salubri antitribu. You may not play this card if
you have a Blessing of the Name in play. Put this card in play and
choose this acting vampire and up to 2 other minions you control.
Untap the chosen minions. The chosen minions have +1 intercept and
inflict +1 damage with melee weapons while this card is in play.
During your next untap phase, burn this card and tap the chosen
minions.
Auspex helps greatly with pulse, fortitude with freak drive.
That deals with the bleed aspect of the deck. The deck will also be
something of a toolbox, I'm expecting to use wake etc. to untap and
block as needed. Fortitude gives that all needed survival in combat.
Both Valeren and Obeah also give good combat cards, or good combat
repercusion cards, getting back blood or saving vamps.
Valeren combat starts with
Sword of the Righteous
cost 1
Only usable before range is determined
ani
Choose a melee weapon on this vampire. This vamipre inflicts an
additional point of damage each strike with that weapons for the
remainder of the combat. A vampire can play only one Sword of the
Righteous each combat.
val
As above, and the damage inflicted by the weapon is aggravated.
VAL
As above, and prevent 1 damage this round.
Followed by
Vengeance of Samiel
cost 1
pot
Strike: use your hand or melee weapon at +1 damage.
val
As above, and this strike cannot be dodged.
VAL
As above, but this strike is at +2 damage.
A valeren card I proably won't use is
+1 stealth action
for
This vampire gains 2 blood.
val
Rescue a vampire from torpor (this action costs 2 less blood than the
normal rescue action).
Val
As above, and move one blood from the blood bank to the rescued
vampire.
Obeah combat, still effective but less painful starts with
Vitae Block
Play before range is determined. Only usable if the opposing minion is
a vampire. A vampire can play only one Vitae Block each combat.
ani
Gain 1 optional press this round.
obe
Put this card in play, and move up to 2 blood from the opposing
vampire to this card. During your untap phase, return the blood
counters to that vampire and burn this card.
OBE
As above, but move up to 3 blood to this card.
Then you hit them and leave them with.
Anesthetic Touch
Only usable at close range
aus
Strike: dodge.
obe
Strike: make a hand strike. Combat ends immediately after the
resolution of this strike.
OBE
As above, with First Strike.
Obeahs backup for combat, before and after includes
Renewed Vigor
cost 1
+1 stealth action
for
Put this card on this acting vampire. During your untap phase, if this
vampire is in torpor; you can burn this card to move him or her to
your ready region. A vampire can have only one Renewed Vigor.
obe
Move a vampire in torpor to his controller's ready region, or restore
an ally or retainer to his or her starting life (with counters from
the blood bank).
OBE
Choose any other vampire. That vampire gains enough blood from the
blood bank to reach full capacity.
The other !Salubri card, which I'll mention but probably not use is
Play when the opposing minion burns blood or life due to damage. Put
this card on the opposing minion. This Salubri antitribu gets +1
intercept when attempting to block the minion with this card. If the
vampire with this card is Tremere, or Baali, this Salubri antitribu
can enter combat with the vampire with this card as a (D) action. The
minion with this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action. A vampire
can play only one Tracker's Mark each combat.
To not be remiss I also mention there is the good Salubri master:
Sight Beyond Sight
Unique master - Burn option.
Put this card on a Salubri you control. The Salubri with this card
gets +1 intercept.
The Salubri vampires are
Miriam Benyona
Clan: Salubri
Capacity: 5
Independent
Ability: Rescuing a vampire from torpor costs Miriam 1 less blood.
During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from Miriam to any ready
vampire. Scarce.
Disciplines :
Superior Auspex
Inferior Fortitude
Inferior Obeah
Blanche Hill
Clan: Salubri
Capacity: 6
Independent
Ability: Once per turn, when Blanche successfully hunts, untap her at
the end of the action. Scarce. Disciplines :
Inferior Auspex
Superior Fortitude
Superior Obeah
and my personal favorite,
Matthias
Clan: Salubri
Capacity: 7
Independent
Ability: While Matthias is ready, Baali and Followers of Set get -1
bleed when bleeding you. Scarce.
Disciplines :
Superior Auspex
Superior Fortitude
Inferior Necromancy
Superior Obeah
The Salubri Antis include
Doris McMillon
Clan: Salubri-Antitribu
Capacity: 2
Sabbat
Disciplines :
Inferior Valeren
Kervos, The lieutenant
Clan: Salubri-Antitribu
Capacity: 3
Sabbat Disciplines :
Inferior Auspex
Wolf Valentine
Clan: Salubri-Antitribu
Capacity: 4
Sabbat
Ability: Wolf gets 1 optional press per combat, only usable to
continue combat, when in combat with a Tremere
Disciplines :
Inferior Fortitude
Superior Valeren
Thomas Steed, The Angry
Clan: Salubri-Antitribu
Capacity: 4
Sabbat
Ability: Thomas may search your library for a melee weapon and move it
to your hand as a +1 stealth action. Discard down to your hand size
and shuffle your library afterward.
Disciplines :
Inferior Animalism
Inferior Auspex
Inferior Valeren
and the ugly but much beloved founder
Adonai
Clan: Salubri-Antitribu
Capacity: 7
Sabbat
Ability: Adonai can enter combat with a ready Camarilla vampire
controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action. He gets +1 strength
when in combat with a Tremere. +1 bleed.
Disciplines :
Superior Auspex
Inferior Fortitude
Superior Valeren
These are from the great card list page
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/
There are some cards I remember, my deck is actually a few miles away,
that weren't found here. A good one is a Val card that lets you untap
after equipping, or lets you equip a melee weapon even if blocked.
There is also a lesser sensory deprivation with Obeah, and some at
least one Auspex/ Fortitude cards
I would appreciate a response on any Sal, !Sal, Obeah, Valeren cards
not listed here. Otherwise I hope you enjoy this nearly complete Sal
!Sal spoiler.
Now here my ideas for my deck. The crypt will include one each of the
above vampires. The crypts in our group are pretty much dictated by
our metagame, clan based decks, no duplicates. We've run into
something of a problem with bloodlines, not enough vampires to make
legal decks that way. Our solution was to combine several of the
clans, and tear apart our pander/caitiff deck, mixing them in to these
new ones as appropriate.
To further define the metagame we use a four-card limit, and a
bloodpool of 10 per methuselah.
This does make for a very different game, and I'm well aware this
doesn't make for the strongest of possible decks. In defense of our
metagame, we have a huge variety of decks we play. We have over 20
decks. If all were played at once I think we would have every vampire
in the game, minus one or two. The competition among the decks for
good cards is minimized. My main problem with it is it's not very
balanced, and I have difficulty playing some deck concepts I'd like to
try. I'm hoping to loosen some of our deck construction limits for
these bloodlines decks. If possible, I would take a few low capacity
!Ventrue, which would give access to some !Ventrue master cards, and
let me use a hunting ground.
There is a lot that could be discussed about our metagame, but what
I'm looking for in this thread is a discussion of the Salubri deck I'm
trying to make.
So lets assume the remaining vampires in my crypt are a few caitiff,
hopefully with obeah or fortitude.
The first problem is that 3 of my vampires are scarce, yet they are a
real focus of part of the deck. They could be made less of a focus,
or the cost could just be paid. Clan impersonation is another answer,
however we don't have any of those to spare, and I expect them to be
in some demand. Ideally I would have the Salubri impersonate
!Salubri, and they would then begin teaching each Valeren and Obeah
with that cool new skill card. However, that isn't going to be
happening for this deck for awhile, and I can live with it.
Equipment will likely become a real focus of the deck, melee weapons
especially. We've got a guy who can search for them, Valeren enhances
them, and they would let the Salubri do some real damage. All the
zero cost ones look good, knuckles, meat hook. The garrote could be
given agg damage with Val, to burn vampires as a strike! The
gas-powered chainsaw is another choice weapon. We don't need to use
these more than once per combat. Laptops and Scotland will also take
a real part.
Pulse will be a much sought addition, but right now we only have one
to allocate to it.
Maneuvers are going to be another real problem. I'd love to get my
hands on some IR goggles, but we've actually used all ours up. I'm
likely to be pretty dependent on fortitude for maneuvers.
Master cards will include a whole bunch of Fortitude and Valeren skill
cards. The !Salubri are small, Adonai doesn't even have mastery in
all three of his disciplines.
What is going to be a real problem is balancing the cards. My hopes
for all the things the deck we'll be able to do are pretty ambitious,
bleed with all my vampires every turn repeatedly, equip all sorts of
weapons, untap and block, with intercept, beat up non-combat decks,
hold my own against combat decks.
Fortunately I have a few storage annex, and barrens, so I'll be able
to do a fair amount of mid game hand adjustment.
You ever find yourself saying more than you meant? Or just realizing
what you are asking after you ask it?
Anyway ideas about the deck, or our metagame if we got no takers on
the deck, would be greatly appreciated.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
Mark Allen
in conjunction with Anestetic Touch. Suprise your Immortal Grappling foe
with that one. In this case, avoid Neutral Guard because you WANT them to
block. I would use pulse of the Canaile or even Rushes for this
encouragement.
On the other hand, try Day Op and Daring the Dawn for unblockable actions
and then rescue with Renewed Vigor (obe) OR Sense Vitatlity (VAL) to avoid
combat. What would be really funny is to use Panacea (aus) to untap a
prey's vampire (if you need to) and then use Spirit Marrionette (OBE) to use
his own vampire to bleed himself. This is really good if he is a combat
monster. HA!
IMHO, I think the !Sal Vamps suck except for the 4 cap with VAL and Adonis.
The rest chuck. Very difficult to play those crappy ones. I think you will
find that everything you will need for the toolbox deck you propose is right
there in the Salubri vamps. Stealth, intercept, bleed, blood gain, damage
prevention, agg damage. unblockable actions. They have it all.
Derek Ray
"Mark Allen" <alle...@home.com> mumbled something about:
>IMHO, I think the !Sal Vamps suck except for the 4 cap with VAL and Adonis.
>The rest chuck. Very difficult to play those crappy ones. I think you will
Doris McMillon gets a pair of Brass Knuckles.
She untaps with Gift of Bellona.
Doris McMillon now plays Bum's Rush and jumps on your ass.
Before range, she plays Sword of the Righteous -- and strikes with
Vengeance of Samiel for 4 aggravated damage.
She goes to torpor, but who cares? Kervos, the Lieutenant will be
playing Sense Vitality immediately afterwards ... and rescuing her from
torpor for free.
The !Salubri are going to be nasty, nasty, nasty. Who cares if you
S:CE? They're weenies; they've got plenty of actions, and you'll run
out.
--
Derek
...Vampire Squirrel has come to bite your nuts!
James Coupe
<mathi...@hotmail.com> writes:
>+1 stealth action
>Usable by a tapped Salubri antitribu. You may not play this card if
>you have a Blessing of the Name in play. Put this card in play and
>choose this acting vampire and up to 2 other minions you control.
>Untap the chosen minions. The chosen minions have +1 intercept and
>inflict +1 damage with melee weapons while this card is in play.
>During your next untap phase, burn this card and tap the chosen
>minions.
Bring out a !Salubri weenie. Or Clan Impersonate your first Infernal
minion to !Salubri. Or mix and match getting a !Salubri from your
Setite friends using CI, or something.
Then use quite a few of this to untap your Baali and go on a killing
spree. Hmm...
You could even give your Great Beast Valeren, if you were so inclined.
--
James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D It's been a long road, getting from there to here
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA213D7E It's been a long time, and my time is finally near
668C3695D623D5D I will see my dream come alive at last, I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind
Halcyan 2
>
>She untaps with Gift of Bellona.
>
>Doris McMillon now plays Bum's Rush and jumps on your ass.
>
>Before range, she plays Sword of the Righteous -- and strikes with
>Vengeance of Samiel for 4 aggravated damage.
I was talking about this with someone else earlier but what's scarier is Sword
of the Righteous + Garrote. As you said, you can use Gift of Bellona to untap
and attack right after equipping. And Thomas can go through your library to
find the Garrotes too.
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray
halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) mumbled something about:
>I was talking about this with someone else earlier but what's scarier is Sword
>of the Righteous + Garrote. As you said, you can use Gift of Bellona to untap
>and attack right after equipping. And Thomas can go through your library to
>find the Garrotes too.
Or screw it -- get 'em all out and let 'em Computer Hack like maniacs.
Use their AUS to defend via intercept (backed up with an occasional
well-timed Blessing of the Name), and be sure you include plenty of "get
Bob out of torpor free" cards.
Derek Ray
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about:
>You could even give your Great Beast Valeren, if you were so inclined.
OBF/DOM/VAL.
Bleed for lots. Disguised Weapon/Crimson Sentinel in the first combat,
Thoughts Betrayed/Sword of the Righteous/Taste as necessary -- after the
Sword gets 3+ counters, it's going to get ugly.
Matt
some pretty awesome rares.
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/
Obeah
Unburdening the Bestial Soul, here is that lesser sensory dep.
Ani
+1 stealth action. Move 1 or more blood from this vampire to any other
vampire.
obe
As above, and untap this acting vampire
OBE
(D) Put this card on an ally or a younger vampire. The minion with
this card cannot take actions, block or play reaction cards. During
this minions untap phase, this card is burned unless this acting
vampire burns 2 blood.
By default I wouldn't use this one, but with the right alies...
Resurrection
+1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally has been burned
since your last turn.
val
Move the retainer or ally card your ash heap to your hand.
obe
Move the retainer card from it's Methuselah's ash heap to this acting
vampire, with life from the blood bank equal to it's starting life.
Use the normal version if it requires a discipline.
OBE
As above, but move the ally card to your ready region.
Heres two other valeren powers
this oneis great, use it whenever you equip, successful or not
Gift of Bellona
aus
If this action is blocked, your hand size is increased by 1 during the
resulting combat.
val
Only usable when an action to equip with a weapon is successful. Untap
this acting vampire.
VAL
Only usable when an action to equip with a weapon from your hand is
blocked. Before combat begins, equip this vampire with the weapon
instead of placing it in your ash heap (pay cost as normal). During
the first round of combat, that weapon cannot be used.
with dawn operation, this sends a vampire to torpor if at close, if at
long go make them fight someone someone elses minion
Blissful Agony
cost 1
ani
Strike: strength +1 damage.
val
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion
takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this
combat if the range is close.
VAL
Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by another Methuselah
other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire
enters combat with that minion.
I've tried an early version of this deck out, and it didn't do too
well. My problem was I had a real combat deck behind me each time,
and I got distracted from my prey. They've been greatly retooled now,
so they should be able to bleed without lowering defense.
What seems to work well is getting one of the Salubri out, preferably
Matthias. Then bring out all the !Salubri you want. The Sal end up
real figure heads, they've already got the discipline mastery, and
they get permanent intercept cheap. The !Sal quickly become tanks,
when they get their weapons and IR goggles. Depending on the cards in
hand, you can block or act with !Sal or Sal.
One issue is, even if you untap you can't bleed twice. So the other
actions have to be equiping, saving, or discipline actions. I was
thinking of adding free states rant in, since it a vote worth one
vote, titles are worth 1 less vote, and the edge is worth one more.
It's a vote you can win without votes.
The auspex action to untap other vampires is useful, especially if you
freak drive that action.
I've looked at the master cards again and here is what I'm thinking of
using. With all these actions, and paying some blood to untap, the
hungy coyote would be real nice for the !Sal, even the inbase discotek
would be worth it. I was thinking of using the hunter guy that feeds
your vamps one time, and smiling jack since general tapping is good.
There are a lot of good Salubri cards for helping allies or , but no
specific to Salubri.
Superior resurection is awesome with those allies you deliberately
burn. You could continue to burn and resurect Jake Washington( the
hunter that gives blood) or the ghoul escort. Wendell Delburton is an
awesome combat ally, that admittedly does 2 damage to your vampires,
but heck we can afford that. The Arcunum investigator is not unique
and could burn equipment. Akhenaton and the hermes cabal can both
bleed, however they cost 4, and you can't resurect Akhenaton since he
goes to your library. Mehemet can burn blood and discipline cards.
These guys all could be used if you have plenty of resurections, or
are just looking for more actions after you've tapped out our prey.
I'm not actually planning on doing this, but it's a thought.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
Chris Berger
>
> Now here my ideas for my deck. The crypt will include one each of the
> above vampires. The crypts in our group are pretty much dictated by
> our metagame, clan based decks, no duplicates. We've run into
> something of a problem with bloodlines, not enough vampires to make
> legal decks that way. Our solution was to combine several of the
> clans, and tear apart our pander/caitiff deck, mixing them in to these
> new ones as appropriate.
>
> To further define the metagame we use a four-card limit, and a
> bloodpool of 10 per methuselah.
>
describe the additional game played in predicting how individual games
will be played. A metagame is essentially the strategy that goes into
building your deck and is always descriptive as opposed to
prescriptive. What you are describing is a play variant. It's
probably useless to ask for help in creating a deck for this variant,
as you and your playgroup are the ones with the most experience in
that arena (don't take that the wrong way, I'm not telling you to go
away, just that experience with VTES is not necessarily relevant to
the game that you're playing which uses VTES cards but with an
unmistakably different ruleset).
I won't really tell you what I think of that ruleset, although I don't
really understand how you can afford to play with any vampires larger
than 4 capacity. Or how your games ever last more than about 4 turns.
It's just weird, is all. 10 pool??? 8)
Flux
news:5287ede4.01120...@posting.google.com:
> mathi...@hotmail.com (Matt) wrote in message
> news:<589ebf00.01120...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> To further define the metagame we use a four-card limit, and a
>> bloodpool of 10 per methuselah.
<snip>
> I won't really tell you what I think of that ruleset, although I don't
> really understand how you can afford to play with any vampires larger
> than 4 capacity. Or how your games ever last more than about 4 turns.
> It's just weird, is all. 10 pool??? 8)
I think he meant 10 pool per Methuselah *for each Methuselah*. So if they
have a 5 player game they each get 50 pool.
That probably turns out in favor of big vampires:
- the number of transfers become more important in bringing out vampires
and weenie decks are at a disadvantage there when they get want to bring
their 5th minion out.
- with more pool to eat through, Elder decks have more time to set up
their defenses.
Flux
Derek Ray
mathi...@hotmail.com (Matt) mumbled something about:
>Now here my ideas for my deck. The crypt will include one each of the
>above vampires. The crypts in our group are pretty much dictated by
>our metagame, clan based decks, no duplicates. We've run into
>something of a problem with bloodlines, not enough vampires to make
>legal decks that way. Our solution was to combine several of the
>clans, and tear apart our pander/caitiff deck, mixing them in to these
>new ones as appropriate.
Being locked into "clan-based decks" is going to make things very
complicated for you. Bloodlines was designed to be played as support
for existing clans -- with roughly 5 different vamps per Bloodline, it
will be extremely difficult to fill up a 12-card crypt.
To use your example below, 3 Salubri plus 5 !Salubri is only 8 -- you'll
need to find 4 "filler" vamps, which is just going to be painful.
>To further define the metagame we use a four-card limit, and a
>bloodpool of 10 per methuselah.
I don't understand the starting pool of 10 per Methuselah. I suspect we
are using different terminology.
In the official rules, Methuselahs start with 30 *pool* that they then
spend as transfers to vampires, according to capacity. When a vampire
reaches its capacity in pool, it is turned right-side up and is
"controlled".
Controlled vampires have *blood* on them that they may spend to activate
disciplines and/or play cards.
Do you mean that Methuselahs start with 10 pool, or...?
>This does make for a very different game, and I'm well aware this
>doesn't make for the strongest of possible decks. In defense of our
>metagame, we have a huge variety of decks we play. We have over 20
>decks. If all were played at once I think we would have every vampire
>in the game, minus one or two. The competition among the decks for
There are currently 486 unique vampires in the game. 20 decks
containing no duplicate vampires would equal 240 ... approximately half
the vamps available for use.
>good cards is minimized. My main problem with it is it's not very
>balanced, and I have difficulty playing some deck concepts I'd like to
Well, odds are it won't BE very balanced, as some deck concepts require
specific vampires and/or discipline sets -- working with a crypt of "no
duplicates" means that you'll be lacking a lot of consistency, and often
possibly end up with vamps who can't play the cards in your deck.
It sounds like you all have pooled your cards and are using a communal
"deck pool". How does one manage to create new decks in this sort of
environment... especially if some of the "necessary" cards are tied up
in other decks?
>try. I'm hoping to loosen some of our deck construction limits for
>these bloodlines decks. If possible, I would take a few low capacity
>!Ventrue, which would give access to some !Ventrue master cards, and
>let me use a hunting ground.
>
>There is a lot that could be discussed about our metagame, but what
>I'm looking for in this thread is a discussion of the Salubri deck I'm
>trying to make.
I'm afraid that most of us are going to be completely unable to give
much advice, but I'll try as I can. Your ruleset (as someone else has
pointed out, NOT metagame) is sufficiently different from the actual
rules that most of our advice would be prohibited anyway.
>So lets assume the remaining vampires in my crypt are a few caitiff,
>hopefully with obeah or fortitude.
No Caitiff has Obeah.
Only Uriah Winter and March Halcyon have Fortitude.
>The first problem is that 3 of my vampires are scarce, yet they are a
>real focus of part of the deck. They could be made less of a focus,
This is probably best, as the odds of getting any of those 3 vampires in
your opening crypt of 4 are only about 75%. That sounds like a lot
until you realize that 25% of the time, all the Obeah cards you have in
will be completely useless to you. This will result in Bad Things
happening.
>or the cost could just be paid. Clan impersonation is another answer,
Clan Impersonation is being touted a lot as the be-all, end-all for
these decks. I don't see it happening, myself -- a two-blood action at
a measly +1 stealth, and you still won't have any of the in-clan
disciplines? I would look elsewhere besides Clan Impersonation if I
were you. =)
>however we don't have any of those to spare, and I expect them to be
>in some demand. Ideally I would have the Salubri impersonate
>!Salubri, and they would then begin teaching each Valeren and Obeah
>with that cool new skill card. However, that isn't going to be
>happening for this deck for awhile, and I can live with it.
That is probably best. Sanguine Instruction is an excellent card, but
trying to mix it with Clan Impersonation is not going to be a happy
thought -- especially under a 4CL, where you will have no reliable
chance whatsoever of drawing either of them early on in the game.
>Pulse will be a much sought addition, but right now we only have one
>to allocate to it.
Pulse is nice, but your guys are fairly small and even with an Auspex
skill card, most won't be able to afford it. Laptops and free bleed
retainers (Tasha, JS Simmons) are going to be a more effective way to
go, especially backed up with a Heidelberg Castle. I would also include
some Computer Hacking for transient bonuses.
>Maneuvers are going to be another real problem. I'd love to get my
>hands on some IR goggles, but we've actually used all ours up. I'm
>likely to be pretty dependent on fortitude for maneuvers.
I suggest Fake Out, Trap, or both. Fake Out is more versatile, while
Trap will guarantee close range at SOME point in the combat (assuming
you survive the first round and barring the appearance of Cailean or
Fear of the Void Below).
Unflinching Persistence is cute, but only two of your 8 vamps have
superior Fortitude, and three of them don't even have Fortitude at all.
Skill cards can only go so far.
>Master cards will include a whole bunch of Fortitude and Valeren skill
>cards. The !Salubri are small, Adonai doesn't even have mastery in
>all three of his disciplines.
There are no Valeren skill cards.
>What is going to be a real problem is balancing the cards. My hopes
>for all the things the deck we'll be able to do are pretty ambitious,
>bleed with all my vampires every turn repeatedly, equip all sorts of
>weapons, untap and block, with intercept, beat up non-combat decks,
>hold my own against combat decks.
Both beating up non-combat and holding your own against combat are going
to be difficult for you, given your 4CL. I would make extensive use of
any disciplineless cards providing dodges, maneuvers, or presses, and I
wouldn't discount Lucky Blow as a surprise option. Flak Jackets are
also an excellent choice, as it will protect your vampire during those
"punch for 1" exchanges and give you a little extra flexibility.
The card you quickly discounted above (Sense Vitality) is going to end
up being one of your best resources, as it allows you to rescue a
vampire from torpor for free. This will let you stop worrying so much
about how to protect your smaller vamps in combat, and let you start
killing things more -- it's very annoying to have to deal with a vampire
who isn't concerned about its own safety, especially when that vampire
is prepared to play Undead Persistence.
Wes
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> Or screw it -- get 'em all out and let 'em Computer Hack like maniacs.
> Use their AUS to defend via intercept (backed up with an occasional
> well-timed Blessing of the Name), and be sure you include plenty of "get
> Bob out of torpor free" cards.
I've been trying to come up with a way to get a Force of Will/Rescue/Force
of Will/etc. cycle going with FOR and VAL.
Imagine, if you will, a horde of !Sal weenies, each with 'FOR val'. 'The
Embrace' is a bit problematic due to the lack of a 'Valeren' skill card, so
you'd need to give certain key vampires at least inferior Valeren using
Sanguine Instruction. When you have enough vampires ready and your prey is
sufficiently tapped out:
!Sal A -> Sanguine Instruction (Val) on B
!Sal A -> Force of Will to bleed
!Sal B -> Sense Vitality on A
!Sal B -> Force of Will to bleed
!Sal C -> Sense Vitality on B
!Sal C -> Force of Will to bleed
And so on and so on...
Add liberal doses of Daring the Dawn, Burning Touch, Rapid Healing, Freak
Drive, prevention cards, FOR masters...
Kind of scary, ne? Granted, it has lots of potential holes and it would
probably require too much preparation time to really get something like this
going adequately, but if it works... ouch.
Cheers,
WES
....salem christ....
You rush and torpor them with, like, melee weapons doing agg. You then
rescue them, at stealth, suing that valeren card. (play at val, not VAL,
so they don't gain a blood) Then rush them again. repeat. use nose of the
hound for your rush (at aus, it's a stealth ambush).
how could it fail? O:)
salem.
Matt
> containing no duplicate vampires would equal 240 ... approximately half
> the vamps available for use.
That would be true if we only used 12 per deck. We do use all of the
clans
vampires in the deck. Also, if I'm counting right we have 25 decks.
Seems you guys have also worked out how we're playing. It is a total
pool of 10 * the number of methuselah, per methuselah. We have pooled
our cards, and there is competition among the decks. However, with a
4-card limit, we had extras for the discipline cards, until we started
making decks for bloodlines. Now we are cutting back some of the
older decks to make sure we have enough to go around.
To bring the Salubri up to 12 we even used caitiff/pander without
disciplines. So far it hasn't been too critical a problem. They are
virtually free, and they are one more bleed after the opponent is
tapped out. It's true that it is going to be very difficult not to
glut the hand if there is too much focus on Valeren or obeah. That is
why I have 2 storage annex and the barrens in there, plus plenty of
aura reading.
Martyr's resilience has also been useful in keeping the caitiff alive.
There are several expensive vamps in the deck, Adonai, all the
Salubri, and it is basically up to them to do the expensive actions.
All the !Salubri have basic Valeren, and basic is really all you need.
I'm curious how other people are trying to make use of the Salubri or
!Salubri.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
James Coupe
<mathi...@hotmail.com> writes:
>I'm curious how other people are trying to make use of the Salubri or
>!Salubri.
By including them in decks with cross-over disciplines or where they're
useful, rather than trying to force them into decks where they don't
belong, ham-stringing them.
Sten During
Matt wrote:
>
>
> I'm curious how other people are trying to make use of the Salubri or
> !Salubri.
>
> Wisefool
> Mercuriel
>
I got a skewed distribution of vampires and decided to try making fun
use of it. Deck with the seven Salubris I have (2,3,2) and one each of
the Harbingers.
Basically it's a "How would the Ventrue Antitribu work with 5 Trad?"
A four-discipline deck with focus on For, Obe and Aus sprinkled with
Nec. Dawn Op, damageprevention, Force of Will, Freak Drive, bloat,
Repulsion and Telepathic Misdirection. Add some Nec stealth and
Daemonic Possession and you have it.
Of course the crypt is prohibitively expensive and buildup takes
too long time, even with Zillahs Valley. The extra three pool
for the second Salubri is paid with a happy smile but a third
one proved hopeless. Only tested at two fourplayer tables with
1 and 3 VP as result. One (1) deck during those games didn't have
For inclan, so Kiss of Ra was discardfood :)
I got good use of the 6-cap special though ;) Also found out that
combining the 2 "play with preys library" and "burn preys uncontrolled"
vampires actually makes sense. A Daemonic Possession later you're
actually interested in playing your preys library for more than
discard. Yes, yes, it was probably constructed this way, but it was
still an eyeopener for me to find out :)
Sten During
Derek Ray
>> There are currently 486 unique vampires in the game. 20 decks
>> containing no duplicate vampires would equal 240 ... approximately half
>> the vamps available for use.
>
>That would be true if we only used 12 per deck. We do use all of the
>clans vampires in the deck. Also, if I'm counting right we have 25 decks.
This is even more disturbing, as most clans have 20+ vampires. It adds
enormously to the complete randomness of the game, as you have a less
than 20% chance of seeing any given vampire in your opening crypt.
While your large amount of starting pool helps offset the tragedy of
getting all 9-caps or higher in your opening crypt, it also would almost
tend to indicate that games would last 4 or more hours... especially
when combined with a 4CL. There just ain't enough ways to do pool
damage.
>To bring the Salubri up to 12 we even used caitiff/pander without
>disciplines. So far it hasn't been too critical a problem. They are
You mean Smudge? =/
>virtually free, and they are one more bleed after the opponent is
>tapped out. It's true that it is going to be very difficult not to
>glut the hand if there is too much focus on Valeren or obeah. That is
>why I have 2 storage annex and the barrens in there, plus plenty of
>aura reading.
Using Aura Reading to cycle cards will require superior Auspex,
something only four vamps in your crypt have. Adding in more Auspex
skill cards will make things very difficult.
>There are several expensive vamps in the deck, Adonai, all the
>Salubri, and it is basically up to them to do the expensive actions.
>All the !Salubri have basic Valeren, and basic is really all you need.
Right. But the guys with superior in your crypt are the only ones with
superior in ANYTHING. Barring unreasonable use of Freak Drive, how can
you manage to get them to do anything consistently? I suppose the 50+
starting pool helps in getting out a bunch of "expensive" vamps, but I
would also expect to see quite a bit of combat targeting those vamps.
>I'm curious how other people are trying to make use of the Salubri or
>!Salubri.
I've "sidelined" the Salubri into a couple Ravnos decks already, making
use of Renewed Vigor/Spirit Marionette/Repulsion for a little extra
tap-and-bleed, and also to refill the poor Ravnos. I expect to run them
alongside several Sabbat/independent clans as necessary.
I also have a !Salubri deck currently built (makes use of a few !Ventrue
like Juan Cali, and duplicates of most !Salubri in the crypt) -- it
relies largely on intercept/combat via Bang Nakh, with the occasional
Computer Hack bleed to liven things up. Vengeance of Samiel works
nicely with Bang Nakh to strike for lots -- and Sword of the Righteous
can be added in against vampires who are low on blood and ready to be
burned. Some Telepathic Tracking and Auspex skill cards are in, as
well.
Chris Berger
>
> > I won't really tell you what I think of that ruleset, although I don't
> > really understand how you can afford to play with any vampires larger
> > than 4 capacity. Or how your games ever last more than about 4 turns.
> > It's just weird, is all. 10 pool??? 8)
>
> I think he meant 10 pool per Methuselah *for each Methuselah*. So if they
> have a 5 player game they each get 50 pool.
> That probably turns out in favor of big vampires:
> - the number of transfers become more important in bringing out vampires
> and weenie decks are at a disadvantage there when they get want to bring
> their 5th minion out.
> - with more pool to eat through, Elder decks have more time to set up
> their defenses.
>
>
at first. Although "clan-based" decks seem kind of a silly
restriction, and, of course, 4CL makes my skin crawl.
We used to play with 40 pool around here when we first started (back
when Jyhad was all there was), because we thought that 30 pool made
you too vulnerable if you wanted to get out a big vamp. In our group,
this soon led to interminably long games, with IC's coming out all
over the place, and too many minions per side to allow for much
strategizing. But it was kinda fun while it lasted.
Xian
> That would be true if we only used 12 per deck. We do use all of the
> clans vampires in the deck. Also, if I'm counting right we have 25 decks.
Woog. So you mean that if I wanted to play a Tremere deck with
Gargoyles protecting them, I couldn't? Or have you allowed the
Gargoyles to be in with the Tremere due to backstory reasons?
Kind of chilling. :)
> I'm curious how other people are trying to make use of the Salubri or
> !Salubri.
I'm planning on (once I get my cards, hopefully tomorrow) making a
!Salubri/!Ventrue deck, and working it around Pulse, Masochism, and
some other stuff. Actually, for my purposes, the Salubri will
probably work better, but we'll see where that goes. I like Halcyan's
idea of using the Garotte with that one Valeren card that does bad
things with weapons.
Xian
Matt
Franciscus
Smudge the Ignored
Dan Murdock
March Halcyon
I'm not sure what's so difficult about skill cards, but Sanguine
Instruction works very well. Especially after the Salubri have begun
impersonating !Sal.
Most of the Sal/!Sal have basic Auspex, and most have basic fortitude.
So while you might not be getting the superior use, they won't be
clogging the hand. All the !Salubri have Valeren, and basic is all
you need. The Salubri and Adonai have great disciplines, so they can
do all the difficult stuff.
It is true the big guys are going to be more targeted. There really
isn't anything else worth targeting. That is kind of the idea though.
The Salubri quickly get permanent +1 stealth and intercept. They'll
act first, saving last round's vamps or what not. Hopefully this will
weed out the blockers. This deck doesn't fear combat. There are
combat decks that will rip it apart, but that's true of any deck.
After all the big boys have acted hopefully some of them will have
freak drived to act again. One of the !Salubri will then act,
probably equipping, hopefully untapping after that. Once all the big
guys are tapped, and one of the !Sal, we then call blessing of the
name. Bam, 3 more vampires of choice untapped. If you haven't been
blocked in anything this might not be the turn to do this. If you
have, call the blessing then bleed, big guys first. Go ahead and tap
out, we plan to leave enough wakes in there to keep the predator
guessing, and paying for it when he guesses wrong.
That's the strategy so far.
I'll be giving the deck some thorough testing so I'll tell you how it
works out.
I already understand how difficult the deck is to play, I don't need
to be told that. What I am interested in is what can be done with it.
There have been some great suggestions so far, dawn operation, Force
of Will, Fame.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
Halcyan 2
>Franciscus
>Smudge the Ignored
>Dan Murdock
>March Halcyon
Works better with Caitiff IMHO, because you can then use Revelation of the
Sire, which takes care of the clan requirement for Sanguine Instruction.
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray
>Good caitiff/pander for a Salubri deck include:
>Franciscus
>Smudge the Ignored
>Dan Murdock
>March Halcyon
>
>I'm not sure what's so difficult about skill cards, but Sanguine
>Instruction works very well. Especially after the Salubri have begun
>impersonating !Sal.
With a 4CL, it will be difficult to rely on ANY card turning up early...
and Sanguine Instruction is extremely risky, what with it being only a
+1 stealth action and obviously a "key" to your deck.
>It is true the big guys are going to be more targeted. There really
>isn't anything else worth targeting. That is kind of the idea though.
> The Salubri quickly get permanent +1 stealth and intercept. They'll
Sight Beyond Sight is unique.
Repulsion is not unique, but with a 4CL, you have less than a 2/3 chance
of getting one in the top 20 cards of your deck. This, to me, is not
"quickly"... especially if you happen to be sitting next to a guy who
wants to intercept things.
>act first, saving last round's vamps or what not. Hopefully this will
...assuming nobody got diablerized. I'd rather be picking up the bodies
with Sense Vitality at superior, which means using a !Salubri.
>weed out the blockers. This deck doesn't fear combat. There are
>combat decks that will rip it apart, but that's true of any deck.
>After all the big boys have acted hopefully some of them will have
>freak drived to act again. One of the !Salubri will then act,
...with only 4 Freak Drives.
>probably equipping, hopefully untapping after that. Once all the big
...a +1 stealth action that has "TARGET" painted on its head. Once
people know what to expect from the !Salubri, expect very few "i equip a
melee weapon!" actions to go uncontested.
>guys are tapped, and one of the !Sal, we then call blessing of the
>name. Bam, 3 more vampires of choice untapped. If you haven't been
A +1 stealth action that people *will* be blocking, whether or not it
costs them a vampire to do so. The action is simply that powerful.
I realize I sound a bit nitpicky here, but you've got many, many +1
stealth actions in a clan that cannot generate stealth to save its life.
And ALL your actions need to get through -- it's easy for a good player
to simply stick a wrench in the works by selectively blocking one.
Even 4x Creepshow Casino would still leave things difficult, although it
will go a long way.
>blocked in anything this might not be the turn to do this. If you
>have, call the blessing then bleed, big guys first. Go ahead and tap
>out, we plan to leave enough wakes in there to keep the predator
>guessing, and paying for it when he guesses wrong.
...with only 4 Wakes and 4 Forced Awakening, tops? And you'll be
staying tapped for an entire turn after that (Blessing of the Name card
text), and your predator will know it and take no actions until your +1
intercept is gone.
>I already understand how difficult the deck is to play, I don't need
>to be told that. What I am interested in is what can be done with it.
Please don't take this personally, it's not meant that way.
I believe that your chosen environment forces you to build decks in such
a way that the lack of reliability makes certain concepts prohibitive.
For example, I would build a Salubri/!Salubri crossover deck using the
following crypt:
3x Adonai
2x Matthias
2x Blanche Hill
2x Wolf Valentine
1x Doris McMillon
1x Kervos, the Lieutenant
1x Thomas Steed, the Angry
...and I would have a LOT better chance of making things happen. I
would have an 85% chance of getting a Salubri in my opening crypt, which
would provide me superior Obeah. I have a 99.8% chance of getting a
!Salubri in my opening crypt, and a 93% chance of it being one with
superior Valeren. These are GREAT odds to me, and even if my library
was restricted to 4CL, I would be in WONDERFUL shape as far as playing
my deck goes. Someone would be able to play all my cards, no matter
what. I wouldn't need Clan Impersonation or Sanguine Instruction at
all, and while I'd still use a few skill cards, I wouldn't need to worry
about getting one early.
And even with all that added reliability, none of the +1 stealth "key"
actions suddenly gain any more stealth. They're STILL a weak point in
my deck, and there isn't much I can do about it other than try to
misdirect people into not blocking, use Dawn Ops/Gift of Bellona,... you
get the idea.
GreySeer
that should be fun. War Ghouls, Wendel, Ambriosius and anyone else who looks
fun. I'll probably end up having to do a fair bit of CI though.
Matt
we're just putting them in a deck by themselves. We're using clan
impersonation to make up for being slaves. Ironically, it often ends
up with the slave vampires themselves impersonating the clan they
protect. As good as the vampires are, they don't seem like they would
much help a Tremere deck to just be added in. The deck would really
have to be altered to be able to except them.
Better yet would seem to be to make a deck focused on Gargoyles.
Adding Ian Forestal, some normal cheap Tremere and !Tremere. Could
then focus more on teaching the gargoyles Thaumaturgy.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
James Coupe
<mathi...@hotmail.com> writes:
>As good as the vampires are, they don't seem like they would
>much help a Tremere deck to just be added in. The deck would really
>have to be altered to be able to except them.
You say that like it's a problem.
They're supposed to supplement other clans. No-one has said you could
take a fully working deck and just drop 3 new vampires with a new set of
disciplines in and expect it to work. It seems odd that you would even
begin to expect this.
Frederick Scott
>
> Frankly our group has no idea what to do with the gargoyles. So far
> we're just putting them in a deck by themselves. We're using clan
> impersonation to make up for being slaves. Ironically, it often ends
> up with the slave vampires themselves impersonating the clan they
> protect. As good as the vampires are, they don't seem like they would
> much help a Tremere deck to just be added in. The deck would really
> have to be altered to be able to except them.
Geez, how about trying to bleed with Tremere dominate and using Gargoyle's
for combat defense when blocked?!? Use the gargoyle slave block rule.
There's definitely some reasonable decks in there, if nowhere else. Use
things like Bond with the Mountain, Collapse the Arches, Flow within the
Mountain and Stone Quills as combat cards that will work well with either
clan. Flight also has some nice combat cards, also an intercept and a
stealth card. Rock Cat, Stone Dog, and Razor Bats are stellar allies
and retainers, and set them up (esp. Cat & Dog) with Soul of the Earth.
Fred
Matt
that is why I brought it up. One option is just to drop a few of the
new cards in. In fact that would be a good idea with some of the
cards. The tremere/!tremere card to just create a slave gargoyle
springs to mind. You are allowed to give the gargoyle any discipline,
so you could grow your own using Thaumaturgy, Auspex or Dominate. You
could also make use of the visceratika cards with a good thaumaturgy
power. These cards would make good additions to a Tremere deck.
Your other options are to play the Gargoyles by themselves, or
including them in decks with cross-over disciplines. Unfortunately,
no clan has more than 1 crossover discipline with them, except the
blood brothers.
You could find more individual vampires with potence and fortitude and
add them to a Gargoyles deck.
We ended up using a few of those, in our Gargoyle deck. Jimmy Dunn
has for and POT. Uriah has for and pot. These two have some
significant penalties though. Tom, the blood brother has for and pot
as well, costs 3, and his penalty only applies if he uses Sanguinus.
Off topic, if you are going to mix tremere and gargoyles, and all
their disciplines, one vampire I really should mention is
Vincent Day, Paladin and Paragon.
Clan: Ventrue-Antitribu
Capacity: 5
Inferior Auspex
Inferior Dominate
Inferior Fortitude
Inferior Potence
Inferior Thaumaturgy
So like most of the other things I said, I brought it up because I was
curious how others were making use of the gargoyles.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
James Coupe
>that is why I brought it up. One option is just to drop a few of the
>new cards in.
Sure. Alternatively, you could put some thought and effort in and craft
a deck that utilises them well. Just dropping cards in is rarely
helpful.
>Your other options are to play the Gargoyles by themselves,
This is clearly a somewhat dubious option, given the restrictions and
benefits the Gargoyles have.
James Coupe
<freds64_at_...@removethis.com> writes:
>Geez, how about trying to bleed with Tremere dominate and using Gargoyle's
>for combat defense when blocked?!? Use the gargoyle slave block rule.
>There's definitely some reasonable decks in there, if nowhere else.
Beyond the useful split discipline cards, which you mention, there's
also Fidius, who has inferior Thaumaturgy. His +1 stealth on undirected
actions isn't terrible, and with Thaumaturgy being an option, his -1
strength isn't too problematic.
Pugfar has Auspex, and the !Tremere press ability. Luma also has aus.