Summary of last Fall's rules team rulings

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Thomas R Wylie

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Oct 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/7/95
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/*
** In the thread on house rules, Scott listed the official rulings lists
** he had available. That list was in synch with my records, except for
** the June 22 rulings (already covered), and the rulings from last fall.
** Here are the rulings from Oct. 6, Nov. 1, and Nov. 28 of 1994, with
** some minor corrections, and reversed or obsolete rulings taken out.
** (I suspect what Scott calls the Nov 9 rulings are what I call the Nov 1.)
*/


October 6, 1994
===============

1) If a Primogen, Prince, or Justicar is given a new office by a Praxis
Seizure or a Justicar card, does she keep the original title as
well? Does she get the votes for both titles, for only her original
title, for only the new title, or for whichever gives the higher
number of votes?

Any vampire given a new office, relinquishes their old office in favor of
the new, even if this is a demotion (from Justicar to Prince).

2) If a vampire with 1 blood is hit by a 3-point-or-greater aggravated
damage strike, does the vampire go to torpor and then to the
ash heap, or does it just go straight to the ash heap? (This is
a critical difference if the vampire has Fame...)

The vampire goes straight to the ash heap.

3) Chainsaw and Talbot's Chainsaw aren't ranged but don't say Melee
Weapon. Are they a special class of non-ranged non-melee
weapon, or should they have errata adding "Melee"?

/* The chainsaws are not melee weapons. */

4) When, exactly, can and can't Action Modifiers be played?

They can be used both before and after an action is blocked, so you can
wait until after they decide to not block to play Conditioning.

5) Wolf Companion (all of these apply to Murder of Crows except [c]):

a) The Wolf's damage is not a strike, and therefore cannot be dodged.
b) Combat Ends will stop it, since you never reach the damage-dealing step.
c) It can only do damage at close range.
d) The Wolf does its damage each round of combat, but not during
"additional strike" strikes.
e) Its number of lives depends only on the skill of the recruiting
vampire at the time it is recruited; if the skill changes later, the Wolf
doesn't change.
f) If the vampire goes to torpor due to a First Strike with aggravated
damage, the Wolf does not do its damage.

6) Kine Resources Contested: Can you divide the points by giving
4 points to one and zero points to the other?

At least one point must be allocated to each Methuselah chosen.

7) The rules say "You may only use hand damage modifiers on melee-type
weapons (such as knives, clubs, etc.)." Does "hand damage
modifiers" refer only to +N Hand Damage effects, or does it include
other modifiers such as those that make hand damage aggravated?

It only includes the +N Hand Damage. You cannot use Wolf Claws to make
the Bastard Sword aggravated.

8) Can you choose "no strike" as your strike, or must you choose one
of "normal hand attack, weapon, or strike card"?

You cannot choose "no strike" as your strike.

9) Vast Wealth: If you use this ability, are you forced to purchase
the weapon you locate or can you look at what it is and then
decide whether to purchase it or not? If the latter, what happens
when the weapon costs 5 blood and you only have 4 blood left in
your pool?

If you choose to use the ability, then you must use the equipment you
pull out. If you do not have enough blood to pay, then you are ousted.

10) "The Third Tradition: Progeny" allows a Prince or Justicar to create
a new 2 blood vampire with 1 skill. Is this new vampire a member of
the same clan as the Prince or Justicar or is it clanless?

(Note: This is errata) It is a member of the clan that created the
Progeny. This applies to The Embrace also.

11) Is Caitiff a "clan" for the purposes of cards where you choose
a clan (such as Consanguineous Boon)?

Caitiff are clanless.

12) When a player is ousted or withdraws, do they take all their cards
all their cards with them, including those which might have been
under the control of some other player?

They take all of their cards with them.

13) /* obsolete */

14) Pulled Fangs: "Any vampire may burn this card by taking two
actions, which would be at +1 Stealth." Must they be two actions
in the same turn, or can they be done on two separate turns? Can
they be done by two different vampires, or must they be both done
by the same vampire?

It takes two actions. They can be by different vampires on different turns.

15) In the list of official rulings that Tom got from Jeff, it said
that Sudden Reversal could be used to burn a card in play as well
as one being played. Can you confirm or (preferably) deny this ruling?

You cannot use it to burn a card in play.

16) If you do an action, no one blocks, and you play an action modifier
to make it nastier, can they then decide to block after all?

No. The decision to block or not is final.

17) If something gives control of a vampire to a different player, do
all cards played on that vampire stay on it? (I assume yes.) What
if it's a Blood Doll -- does the original controller get to draw
blood from it, or the new controller?

Yes. And the new controller can use the blood doll.

18) Vampire "Astrid Thomas": is "abstain" a vote? i.e. must all Tremere
vote with her, or can they abstain?

You can abstain from the vote, but if they do vote, them must vote in her
favor, and if they already voted against, they must change their vote.

19) /* obselete */

20) Is the "Cat Burglary" card messed up?

Yes. It will be fixed in the next version.

21) Vampire "Sabine Lafitte": can you transfer blood onto an
uncontrolled Tremere, or does "in the game" mean "in play"?

Not to an uncontrolled vampire, but you can to a vampire in torpor. It
should read "in play."

22) /* obsolete */

23) What's the deal with contested cards?

You cannot affect contested cards in any way. The FAQ is incorrect in
this respect.

24) What happens if Peace Treaty is played and I want to keep a free weapon,
such as a Grenade?

You can keep free weapons for free, including 1 cost weapons on Black cat.

25) Suppose a vampire is in torpor, has no blood, but has Charnas on it.
The vampire untaps; does anything bad happen to the vampire? Jeff thought
not, since Charnas' damage is non-aggravated, but was going to get back
to me and never did.

Charnas does nothing to a minion with no blood that untaps in torpor.

26) Can Gird Minions be used to put blood on a vampire in torpor? It sorta
seems like one shouldn't be able to, but there's nothing in the rules or
on the card stopping this. Can this be done, and if not, exactly where
does it say that it can't be done? Same question would apply to
Minion Tap.

Yes for both Gird Minions and Minion Tap.

27) /* reversed */

28) Maybe I'm just missing something in the rules, but what happens if
one person wants to use Elysium, and another person wants to use Trap?
Who goes first? Would it be acting player then blocking/victim player
than all other players in the game, or what?

The order is: acting player, blocking player, all others.

29) /* incorrect */

30) Can this be used if the Masking vampire couldn't legally perform the
current action? For example, can I attack a vampire with my Muddled Vampire
and then take over with another vampire using the Mask? Part of me says that
it shouldn't be able to, but I think that's just the part trying to envision
how this all works in "reality", and I think the card would allow the vampire
to Mask an "illegal" action in this manner.

You can use the Mask of 1000 Faces to make a minion perform an action
that they normally couldn't.

31) Also, are action modifiers applied to the acting vampire, or to the
action itself? For example, suppose a vampire used Earth Control to increase
its stealth, then a vampire takes over with the Mask. Does it still enjoy the
increased stealth? Does it matter whether the new vampire has Protean?
(I don't think whether it has Protean should be relevant, but am unsure about
whether the stealth would still apply.) I can really see arguments for
both sides on this one.

Modifiers are applied to the action itself.

32) Charming Lobby: "Call a vote. If it passes, then the next vote
passes automatically." Does this mean:
d) Charming Lobby does nothing unless you use another minion
action to call a vote. If that vote passes, then the next
one will automatically pass as well.

This is correct.

33) Dragon Breath Rounds in a Zip Gun: do the rounds add +2 aggravated
damage to just the strike, or do they also add it to the damage
done to the bearer of the zip gun?

Just to the strike damage.

34) Cloak the Gathering:
The rules, in section 7.2.2., say "The same action modifier card
type cannot be used twice by a minion during the same action."
Cloak the Gathering is an odd action modifier which can be used
either by the acting minion on itself, or (with superior
Obfuscate) can be used by a non-acting minion on the acting
minion. I believe that it is legal for two different minions
to use Cloak the Gathering during the same action, but not for
the same minion to use it twice. Is this correct?

Two different minions can use Cloak of the Gathering to modify the same
action.

35) Can you play a Reaction after your opponent plays an Action
Modifier, or only directly after they play the Action? (Specific
situation: Foo bleeds Bar. Bar declines to block, but plays
the reaction Telepathic Counter. Foo plays the action modifier
Conditioning. Bar plays the reaction Telepathic Misdirection.
Foo claims that this is illegal, that Bar passed her chance to
play additional Reactions and so can't play one now.)

It is legal to play reaction cards both before and after action modifiers.

36) Anarch Troublemaker: this card creates timing problems. Here's
the answer I gave on JYHAD-L; please confirm or refute it.
"Jyhad hasn't defined anything like MTG's "in response" and
corresponding timing issues. Jyhad cards have their effect
immediately upon use, not delayed until after reactions are
declared. I haven't seen any official rulings on these
questions, but my opinions would be:
* If you use AT on a vampire after its controller declares that
it is attempting to block, the vampire is still attempting to
block (just as if its controller had used one of the special
cards that allow a tapped vampire to attempt to block).

This is incorrect. The block is not solid until after all effects are
resolved. For example if you attempt to block, the acting minion can
increase stealth. They can also remove the blocker with the AT.

* If you use AT on a vampire before its controller declares that
it is blocking, then the vampire is tapped and therefore cannot
declare a block.

This is correct.

* If you use AT on a vampire before its controller declares that
it is bleeding (or any other action), then the vampire is tapped
and therefore cannot take an action.

This is correct for the most part, but the acting player should be
allowed to declare their first action before you use the AT. Conversely
you could just use the AT during their master phase.

37a) Also about the Anarch Troublemaker: if you're down to two
players, and one uses the Troublemaker, the other gets it and
can promptly use it right back on the first player, just sending
it back and forth until it can't tap anything more. Several
players have asked if the Troublemaker is going to have errata
saying it taps when used or something similar. Any comment?

This works just fine.

38) Another "slap" situation. One player has Elesium, and another
has the vampire Mariel. Each of these must be used at the
beginning of combat, before range is determined, and each of
them ends the combat immediately. So using one makes using the
other illegal. What if both players try to use them
simultaneously -- who gets priority?

Prioroty is: acting player, blocking player, and then clockwise from the
acting player.

39) If a vampire receives both aggravated and normal damage at the
same time, which is applied first?

Regular damage is applied first.

40) Uriah Winter will still defect (if appropriate) if he's in torpor, right?
And I assume that if so, he will go to the new controllor's torpor region.

This is correct.


November 1, 1994:


1) /* obsolete */

2) Betrayer again: I have been understanding "guess who the betrayer
is among your uncontrolled vampires" as meaning to *name* a vampire,
not to point at a particular card in your uncontrolled area.

Betrayer requires you to name a vampire. If the guessed name is
correct, then the Betrayer is burned.

3) Drawing Out the Beast (superior) does a point of damage after the
round ends. Does this happen no matter what causes the round to end?

Yes.

4) Malkavian Madness Network allows a vampire to take an action
during another player's turn. If an opposing vampire uses this
to take an action during my turn, can I play reaction cards or
am I forbidden to since it's my turn?

Unfortunately, the rules are quite clear that you cannot play reaction
cards during your own turn.

5) Malkavian Madness Network uses the phrase "finished with action"
without clearly defining it. Should this be read as "finished
with the Minion phase" or "finished with a minion action"?

It should be treated as "finished with the Minion phase."

6) Major Boon allows you to "force the rescued Methuselah to take a
loss due to a bleed against you." Does this count as that
Methuselah being bled (in which case, he could legally play a
Deflection) or are you being bled and simply transferring the
loss after the bleed takes place?

You are still the one being bled. They just take the loss of pool.

7) Assuming that neither strike is a first strike (or both are), the two
strikes *are* resolved simultaneously, right? For example, I strike with
my Shotgun; the other vampire is Lucian, who opts to steal my shotgun.
I assume the damage and the theft will resolve simultaneously, so I could
use Dragon Breath Rounds just as the gun was being stolen, doing the
aggravated damage and burning the shotgun?

This is correct. It is simultaneous.

8) Chainsaw and Talbot's Chainsaw aren't ranged but don't say Melee
Weapon. Are they a special class of non-ranged non-melee
weapon, or should they have errata adding "Melee"?

They are not melee weapons. Yes, we know that the Shotgun is better
than the Chainsaw.

9) Can a vampire which is already tapped vote if Disarming Presence is used?
Normally vampires can vote anyway, but since tapping appears to be the
cost of voting in this case, it's unclear.

Yes. Tapping is not the cost of voting, it is a side effect. Any
that are already tapped may still vote.

10) Can superior Form of Mist be used by a blocking vampire? It does
say something like "this vampire continues its action", not "the
current action continues..."

Yes. It cannot however, continue the action.

11) If I have no skill cards to give a Progeny or Embrace, does the
action "fizzle"?

No. You simply have a one blood vampire. The Embrace does happen to
say what to do, but Progeny doesn't.

12) There's some card that says the reacting minion "remains untapped",
or something like that... I think it's Obedience. In any case, would this
card be usable at all by a vampire which had used Wakey Wakey to block, and
thus was not untapped at the time?

Yes, but it does not untap it.

13) If I use superior Psyche to restart the combat, do I replace
"do not replace until after combat" cards then, or do I wait
until after the new combat and any further restarts have finished?

Replace cards before going on to the restarted combat.

14) How does Rotschreck work with non-vampire minions?

It doesn't. This card will only work if a vampire is attempting to do
aggravated damage.

15) If a vampire such as Lydia uses Pulse of the Canaille in its superior
mode, would the vampire's bleed become 3, or 3+1 = 4?

Lydia would have a 4 bleed. Her base would become 3 and she gets
+1 bleed.

16) Does a vampire have to be actively using an aggravated strike (e.g. Wolf
Claws, Walk of Flame) for Rotschreck to be usable, or would any damaging
strike made during a Dawn Operation automatically qualify?

Any strike that will deal aggravated damage counts, including during
a Dawn Operation.

17) If I use Dread Gaze or Disarming Presence or something to gain votes,
do I *have* to use those votes, or can I abstain anyway?

You must use those votes.

18) /* obsolete */

19) Dodging is always a strike, right? So Crusher's special ability and
Read Intention's superior ability count as strikes even though they
forgot to say so?

These special abilities should be considered strikes.

20) Mariel ("Tap Mariel before range is chosen to end any combat
that does not involve her. All participating minions and retainers
suffer 1 damage.") is used to end a combat during a Dawn Operation
("If blocked, all damage dealt to all vampires in the resulting
combat is aggravated.") Is the damage from Mariel considered to
be a part of the combat (and hence aggravated) or is it instead
of the combat (and hence not aggravated)?

The damage would be aggravated.

21) Freak Drive: can the superior form of this action modifier
("Untap this vampire. Only usable immediately after this vampire
performs a successful action. SUPERIOR: As above, but usable
even if the action is blocked.") be played after the combat
ends, or must it be played before combat?

You can play it after combat.

22) Can action modifiers can be played if they don't match the action
being performed?

You cannot play a modifier that does not match the action
being modified.

23) Contested titles. Section 8 describes contested cards and describes
all that stuff, and section 17.2 just says that contested titles "are
similar to contested cards but with the following differences:" and
then lists two differences. Neither of the differences says that
the card isn't turned over, or isn't considered out of play.

The cards are not turned over, and remain in play.

24) Charnas the Imp states "Charnas cannot be damaged by the minion he
is placed on." What if the minion attempts to use Body of Sun:
"Strike: 3 aggravated damage if at close range, 1 aggravated damage
if at long range, to both combatants and all retainers in combat
(including yours)."?

The minion can use it, but Charnas is immune; everyone except
Charnas takes the damage.

25) Card "Betrayer": this is supposed to cause them to lose 1 pool each
turn until it's burnt, right? (It doesn't say "each turn".) What
if you have two or more uncontrolled vampires that other Methusulahs
control -- does it do damage to both, or do you pick just one? What
if the vampire you picked leaves play -- is Betrayer burned? What
if the vampire you picked becomes contested? goes to torpor?

One damage per turn for each Betrayer card. If the vampire that you
choose is burned, then the Betrayer card is burned. If it becomes contested,
Betrayer ceases functioning until it returns to play.

26) /* obsolete */

27) /* obsolete */

28) If I have a titled vampire in play, am I casting those votes, or is the
vampire, or are we both considered to be casting them? Cards such as
Disarming Presence and Astrid Thomas imply that the vampires are casting
the votes, but then this brings up the question: If Scorn of Adonis is
used and a player on uses titled vampires to vote against, does that
player lose a pool or not?

You are both casting the votes from the titled vampire.

November 28, 1994
=================

1) Is using a retainer at the appropriate time mandatory?

You cannot usually choose to not use a retainer. For example, if
a retainer gives a vampire +1 Hand damage, then you cannot choose to not
get that bonus.

2) Vampires A and B are in combat. Vampire A chooses strike, and
declares that he's using weapon X. Vampire B chooses strike, and
uses special abilities to do a First Strike: Steal Weapon on
weapon X. According to the rules, B can't strike with X until
the following round. But what happens to A's strike?

A's strike is completely lost; A gets no strike this phase.

3) Charming Lobby and Cryptic Rider: the next vote "passes automatically."
Does this mean that no votes may be cast, or does it mean that
votes are cast as normal but the vote passes regardless of the
number of votes against? (I.e., can players burn vote cards,
play Bribes, etc. on the second vote?)

You cannot burn cards or votes during the second vote.

4) /* obsolete */

5) If the vampire selected for Betrayer changes controllers, is the new
controller now the one taking the pool loss?

Whoever controls the vampire takes the pool loss.

6) Will putting the vampire into contention shut down the Betrayer
for the moment as the contended vampire is not being controlled by anyone?

This is correct.

7) Does combat tap or just acting or blocking?

Being in combat does not tap a minion. Acting or blocking does
tap the minion.

8) /* reversed */

9) Can the blood gained from diablerie fill the vampire to its full
new capacity, or only to its pre-diablerie capacity?

You can only fill to the pre-diablerie capacity.

10) Vampires A and B are in combat. Vampire A has
unique weapon X, and declares a strike with it. Vampire B then
uses Disguised Weapon with superior Obfuscate to bring out the
same unique weapon, making the weapons contested. B can't declare
a strike with weapon X, since it's gone immediately, but what happens
to A's strike?

A's strike is completely lost; A gets no strike this phase.

11) Can Telepathic Counter ("Reduce a bleed against you by 1. Note that
bleeds ending up at 0, or less, are not considered successful.")
be played just like any other reaction -- i.e. both before and
after attempting to block?

It can be played either before or after the block.

12) If a Malkavian finds itself untapped and out of blood at
the end of a turn, is it required to take advantage of the Madness
Network in order to hunt?

No. It is not required to take that action, but if it chooses to
act, the only act that it can take is to hunt.

13) Does "Only usable when minion is blocked" mean "once it's been
established that the action will be blocked, but before combat begins"?

Yes.

14) I assume multiple Traps would be cumulative in the sense that multiple
presses to end would be required during a round continued by the Traps?
But they would not cause the combat to drag on for six, nine, etc.
rounds for free.

This is correct. It only makes multiple presses.

15) Suppose I take control of a Malkavian via the Dementia. Next untap, I
have to give it back, but I will also be losing enough pool to be
ousted (Anarch Revolts, contention, whatever). Can I put off the return
of the Malkavian long enough to be ousted, in which case it is burned
and never returned, or do I have to give back the Malkavian as soon as
it's untapped?

You will have to give the Malkavian back first. You lose control
of it at the very beginning of your untap phase.

16) Suppose a vampire starts the minion phase empty and untapped, so hunts;
this action is blocked and undone with Obedience. Is the vampire free
to take another action that turn, or will it have to wait until the next
turn to try hunting again?

It will have to wait until its next turn. The only action that
a vampire with no blood can take is to hunt.

17) What happens if the vampire pulled off the crypt is neither younger
nor older than the vampire who had the Soul Gem?

Errata: Treat the same age as being the same as if the vampire were
older. It does not come into play at full capacity.


L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Oct 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/10/95
to
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:

>/*


>** Here are the rulings from Oct. 6, Nov. 1, and Nov. 28 of 1994, with
>** some minor corrections, and reversed or obsolete rulings taken out.
>** (I suspect what Scott calls the Nov 9 rulings are what I call the Nov 1.)
>*/

>36) Anarch Troublemaker: this card creates timing problems. Here's

<bobbit>


>37a) Also about the Anarch Troublemaker: if you're down to two

<bobbit>

Should be /* obsolete */ yes? (New errata makes the AT only usable during
controller's untap).


>21) Freak Drive: can the superior form of this action modifier

<bobbit>


>
> You can play it after combat.

This was /* reversed */ yes?


>15) Suppose I take control of a Malkavian via the Dementia. Next untap, I
>have to give it back, but I will also be losing enough pool to be
>ousted (Anarch Revolts, contention, whatever). Can I put off the return
>of the Malkavian long enough to be ousted, in which case it is burned
>and never returned, or do I have to give back the Malkavian as soon as
>it's untapped?

> You will have to give the Malkavian back first. You lose control
>of it at the very beginning of your untap phase.

This was /* reversed */ yes? It now happens after untapping, at whatever
time the new controller wishes to order it among other untap effects.


>17) What happens if the vampire pulled off the crypt is neither younger
>nor older than the vampire who had the Soul Gem?

> Errata: Treat the same age as being the same as if the vampire were
>older. It does not come into play at full capacity.

It this errata just for Soul Gem, or in general (Obedience, etc.)? I think
it does not matter for game play, I'm just curious.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

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