Rules Q: Sire's Index Finger

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Cameron

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Feb 9, 2004, 4:41:46 PM2/9/04
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Fatima, equiped with Sires Index Finger Ambushs poor Bobby Lemon.

prerange:
Fatima gets an Assault Rifle
Bobby plays Drawing out the beast (for no effect)

manuver:
Fatima manuvers to long with the Assault Rifle (looks like the end of
poor Bobby)

Strikes:
Fatima stikes AR
Bobby plays Canine Horde at superior to destroy the Sires Index
Finger, with first strike.

Can Fatima strike with the Assault Rifle or does the DoTB take effect?
Or should Bobby have taken out the AR?

Cameron

Colin McGuigan

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Feb 9, 2004, 5:12:47 PM2/9/04
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Cameron wrote:
> Can Fatima strike with the Assault Rifle or does the DoTB take effect?
> Or should Bobby have taken out the AR?

Since the CH acts with First Strike, by the time Fatima's strike comes
to resolve, it's ineligible (much like manuevering with a weapon, but
still getting grappled), so she doesn't do anything.

Or so would be my reasoning.

--Colin McGuigan

Eric Simon

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Feb 9, 2004, 9:27:43 PM2/9/04
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Colin McGuigan <maguaSP...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message news:<i4ycnWel84o...@speakeasy.net>...

Hmm, I disagree. First strike simply means the strike RESOLVES first.
Fatima's strike is declared at the same time, and will still land.
The only way to prevent Fatima's strike from landing is to CH the gun
itself.

It's not like Immortal Grapple, because that happens before strike
declaration. This would happen after, during strike resolution. My
impression is that for the purposes of Sire's Index Finger vs. DotB,
Fatima "uses" the equipment during the maneuver phase and the strike
DECLARATION phase. During strike resolution, you are no longer
checking to see whether Fatima can "use" the equipment, only whether
she is still in possession of it.

IANLSJ, so I'm curious to hear the conclusion on this.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago

Daneel

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Feb 10, 2004, 4:17:20 AM2/10/04
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orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.04020...@posting.google.com>...

I think that Drawing otB is not a lingering effect in the sense that
it produces a one time effect (that affects the opposing minion for a
given length).

In this sense my take is this:

Bobby plays Drawing otB - Fatima is immune to it. Card is normally
placed in the ash heap, its effects unasserted.

Fatima moves to long with AR.

Bobby whacks sire's index finger - no effect, really.

Fatima fries Bobby.

Bye,

Daneel

LSJ

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Feb 10, 2004, 8:09:47 AM2/10/04
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Daneel wrote:
> orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.04020...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>Fatima, equiped with Sires Index Finger Ambushs poor Bobby Lemon.
>>Fatima gets an Assault Rifle
>>Bobby plays Drawing out the beast (for no effect)
>>Fatima manuvers to long with the Assault Rifle
>>Fatima stikes AR
>>Bobby plays Canine Horde at superior to destroy the Sires Index
>>Finger, with first strike.
>>
>>Can Fatima strike with the Assault Rifle or does the DoTB take effect?
>>Or should Bobby have taken out the AR?
>
> I think that Drawing otB is not a lingering effect in the sense that
> it produces a one time effect (that affects the opposing minion for a
> given length).
>
> In this sense my take is this:
>
> Bobby plays Drawing otB - Fatima is immune to it. Card is normally
> placed in the ash heap, its effects unasserted.
> Fatima moves to long with AR.
> Bobby whacks sire's index finger - no effect, really.
> Fatima fries Bobby.

Correct.

This is a REVERSAL of the ruling on Lucian stealing a Sire's Index Finger
to become immune to Terror Frenzy - LSJ 16-DEC-2003

The frenzy cards resolve when played. If the target is not immune, the
target gets frenzied and suffers the effect for the duration stated.
Acquiring the Finger in the middle of the frenzy will not snap one out
of it.

Similarly, if the target is immune because of the Finger, the target
doesn't frenzy. Losing the Finger before the frenzy effect would have
ended (had it been able to be applied in the first place) doesn't
cause the target to suddenly enter into frenzy partway through.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ

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Feb 10, 2004, 8:13:35 AM2/10/04
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Eric Simon wrote:
>>Cameron wrote:
>>>Can Fatima strike with the Assault Rifle or does the DoTB take effect?
>>>Or should Bobby have taken out the AR?
> Fatima "uses" the equipment during the maneuver phase and the strike
> DECLARATION phase. During strike resolution, you are no longer
> checking to see whether Fatima can "use" the equipment, only whether
> she is still in possession of it.
>
> IANLSJ, so I'm curious to hear the conclusion on this.

See my other post in this thread for the answer to the main question.

Use of a gun occurs when that gun is used to maneuver or when that gun
is used to strike (strike resolution, not strike declaration).

See various grenades for examples of this meaning of "use" of a weapon.

Unique Master

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Feb 10, 2004, 9:18:05 AM2/10/04
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:4028D81B...@white-wolf.com...

And if Bobby survives to press, and combat goes into a second round, what
then?

-Mike Ooi


LSJ

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Feb 10, 2004, 9:27:33 AM2/10/04
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The same.

Eric Simon

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Feb 10, 2004, 1:46:59 PM2/10/04
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<4028D8FF...@white-wolf.com>...

> Eric Simon wrote:
> >>Cameron wrote:
> >>>Can Fatima strike with the Assault Rifle or does the DoTB take effect?
> >>>Or should Bobby have taken out the AR?
> > Fatima "uses" the equipment during the maneuver phase and the strike
> > DECLARATION phase. During strike resolution, you are no longer
> > checking to see whether Fatima can "use" the equipment, only whether
> > she is still in possession of it.
> >
> > IANLSJ, so I'm curious to hear the conclusion on this.
>
> See my other post in this thread for the answer to the main question.
>
> Use of a gun occurs when that gun is used to maneuver or when that gun
> is used to strike (strike resolution, not strike declaration).
>
> See various grenades for examples of this meaning of "use" of a weapon.

Okay, that's clear, thanks.

Follow-up to the larger question, then (based on your ruling):

Scenario:
- Acting Minion (Gabrin) is blocked by Blocking Minion (Jaroslav) with
Sengir Dagger and Sire's Index Finger.
- No pre-range is played
- No maneuvers
- Gabrin plays Blessing of Durga Syn (sup) to steal the Finger
- Jaroslav declares strike as Sengir Dagger, and then plays Rotschreck

Question:
Does the "combat ends" nature of Rotschreck cause it to happen first,
or does the first-strike nature of Blessing of Durga Syn render Gabrin
immune to Rotschreck before it can be played?

LSJ

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Feb 10, 2004, 2:03:28 PM2/10/04
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Eric Simon wrote:
> Scenario:
> - Acting Minion (Gabrin) is blocked by Blocking Minion (Jaroslav) with
> Sengir Dagger and Sire's Index Finger.
> - No pre-range is played
> - No maneuvers
> - Gabrin plays Blessing of Durga Syn (sup) to steal the Finger
> - Jaroslav declares strike as Sengir Dagger, and then plays Rotschreck
>
> Question:
> Does the "combat ends" nature of Rotschreck cause it to happen first,
> or does the first-strike nature of Blessing of Durga Syn render Gabrin
> immune to Rotschreck before it can be played?

Rotschreck is played in the choose strikes phase, before any of the
strikes (S:CE, Dodge, First Strike, or other) resolve.

salem

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Feb 11, 2004, 1:41:39 AM2/11/04
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:03:28 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
scrawled:

>Eric Simon wrote:
>> Scenario:
>> - Acting Minion (Gabrin) is blocked by Blocking Minion (Jaroslav) with
>> Sengir Dagger and Sire's Index Finger.
>> - No pre-range is played
>> - No maneuvers
>> - Gabrin plays Blessing of Durga Syn (sup) to steal the Finger
>> - Jaroslav declares strike as Sengir Dagger, and then plays Rotschreck
>>
>> Question:
>> Does the "combat ends" nature of Rotschreck cause it to happen first,
>> or does the first-strike nature of Blessing of Durga Syn render Gabrin
>> immune to Rotschreck before it can be played?
>
>Rotschreck is played in the choose strikes phase, before any of the
>strikes (S:CE, Dodge, First Strike, or other) resolve.

also, superfluously, note that stolen equipment (ie: the finger)
cannot be used the round it is stolen (it's in the rulebook in the
desription of 'steal equipment').

salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

Daneel

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Feb 11, 2004, 6:39:34 AM2/11/04
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salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<fjjj205m6p3cmru9q...@4ax.com>...

True.

"Steal Equipment. This effect is like destroy equipment, except that
instead of being burned, the equipment card is moved to the striking
minion. The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during
the current round of combat. The equipment is retained by the stealing
minion after combat ends."

If the Finger is stolen from Jaroslav, who simply strikes Gabrin with
the Sengir (the damage of which Gabrin prevents), and Jaroslav gains
an additional strike, he can Rötschrek Gabrin with the Sengir Dagger,
because even though Gabrin has the Finger, he is prohibited from using
it that round due to the clause of Steal Equipment.

Bye,

Daneel

agzocgud

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Feb 11, 2004, 7:32:46 AM2/11/04
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>
> also, superfluously, note that stolen equipment (ie: the finger)
> cannot be used the round it is stolen (it's in the rulebook in the
> desription of 'steal equipment').
>
> salem

From the answer I got from LSJ regarding SIF (which resulted in the
ruling that is now reversed) it is never used. If a sabbat vamp steals
a writ of acceptance and being beaten by Joshua Tarnopolski, his
additional strikes would be at normal damage.

Am I correct, LSJ?

/Mathias

LSJ

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Feb 11, 2004, 8:07:25 AM2/11/04
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agzocgud wrote:
>>also, superfluously, note that stolen equipment (ie: the finger)
>>cannot be used the round it is stolen (it's in the rulebook in the
>>desription of 'steal equipment').
>
> From the answer I got from LSJ regarding SIF (which resulted in the
> ruling that is now reversed) it is never used. If a sabbat vamp steals

Citation, please?

Of the only two messages I can find that I authored containing both the
words agzocgud and finger, neither say that the Sire's Index Finger
is never used. They indicate that if the owner is prohibited from
using equipment (via DotB, in those examples) then it cannot be used.

One of them incorrectly allows the un-DotB'ed Lucian to use the
stolen equipment in the round in which it was stolen, but that error
was corrected in a follow-up after Archibald Zimonyi pointed it out.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3FDF0BCB.4030006%40white-wolf.com
(the ending post of your thread on SIF)

> a writ of acceptance and being beaten by Joshua Tarnopolski, his
> additional strikes would be at normal damage.
>
> Am I correct, LSJ?

Sabbat vampire cannot use the stolen Writ (or any other equipment) in the
round in which it is stolen.

If he cannot use it, he will not be changed to Camarilla (and will thus
remain Sabbat).
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D930EB1.D5CF7A86%40white-wolf.com

So Joshua will get +2 strength for his additional strikes against that
still-Sabbat vampire.

Jeff Kuta

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Feb 11, 2004, 2:48:45 PM2/11/04
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<402A290D...@white-wolf.com>...

> agzocgud wrote:
> > a writ of acceptance and being beaten by Joshua Tarnopolski, his
> > additional strikes would be at normal damage.
> >
> > Am I correct, LSJ?
>
> Sabbat vampire cannot use the stolen Writ (or any other equipment) in the
> round in which it is stolen.

Suppose Joshua Tarnopolski went Anarch, has the Eye of Hazimel, and is
in combat with Cynthia Ingold who has a Writ of Acceptance and Drum of
Xipe Totec. Suppose also that Cameron Domer is the third Methuselah
left in the game playing Arika PTO sleaze so everyone wants that Writ.
;)

Joshua's first strike is Blessing of Durga Syn at first strike,
targetting the Writ. Cynthia declares a hand strike. Strikes resolve,
Joshua gets the Writ, which he can't use immediately, so Cynthia
doesn't get the benefit of him becoming Camarilla until next round.
Joshua then Blurs and punches Cynthia twice. Cynthia also Blurs and
punches Joshua twice.

Are Joshua's strikes at +2 strength now that Cynthia lost the Writ
(has she reverted immediately to being Sabbat)?
Yet Cynthia's strikes aren't at +1 strength now that Joshua gained the
Writ?

Somehow this just doesn't seem quite fair that you pay the penalty for
losing equipment immediately, but don't gain the benefit for taking it
from someone until a future round. Is this really how it's supposed to
be?

Jeff

LSJ

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Feb 11, 2004, 3:19:11 PM2/11/04
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Jeff Kuta wrote:
> Somehow this just doesn't seem quite fair that you pay the penalty for
> losing equipment immediately, but don't gain the benefit for taking it
> from someone until a future round. Is this really how it's supposed to
> be?

It is explicitly stated in [6.4.5], and has been explicitly stated in the
corresponding section of every rulebook since and including the 1994 Jyhad
rulebook, yes. It is certainly a considered part of the current rules set.
It is most likely a considered part of the rules set as originally intended
as well, judging by the language in that original rulebook.

Replace the stolen Writ with a stolen Assault Rifle and ask: can either
minion use the Assault Rifle with his or her respective additional strikes?

agzocgud

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Feb 12, 2004, 4:15:44 AM2/12/04
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> Citation, please?
Archibald Zimonyi wrote:
> LSJ wrote:
>> agzocgud wrote:
>>> With his next action, Konstantin steals the finger back.
>>>
>>> Next time they enter combat K plays terror frenzy at superior and
once
>>> again Lucian steals the finger as a strike. When (if at all) does
he
>>> become immune to the TF?
>>
>> After combat ends (i.e., when the Drawing Out the Beast effect
which
>> prohibits him from using the Finger ends).
>>
> I think you answered the wrong question, what about Terror Frenzy at
> superior?

Ah. Well, if indeed the questioner meant to ask about TF at superior
(which does nothing to equipment use), then, of course, Lucian becomes
immune as soon as he has the Finger.

> Of the only two messages I can find that I authored containing both the
> words agzocgud and finger, neither say that the Sire's Index Finger
> is never used. They indicate that if the owner is prohibited from
> using equipment (via DotB, in those examples) then it cannot be used.

The prince of Gothenburg replyed with my question.
However, the new clarification (that frenzy cards are ignored and has
no effect) makes the finger quite clear to me.

/Mathias

Daneel

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Feb 12, 2004, 7:53:43 AM2/12/04
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<402A8E3F...@white-wolf.com>...

> Jeff Kuta wrote:
> > Somehow this just doesn't seem quite fair that you pay the penalty for
> > losing equipment immediately, but don't gain the benefit for taking it
> > from someone until a future round. Is this really how it's supposed to
> > be?
>
> It is explicitly stated in [6.4.5], and has been explicitly stated in the
> corresponding section of every rulebook since and including the 1994 Jyhad
> rulebook, yes. It is certainly a considered part of the current rules set.
> It is most likely a considered part of the rules set as originally intended
> as well, judging by the language in that original rulebook.
>
> Replace the stolen Writ with a stolen Assault Rifle and ask: can either
> minion use the Assault Rifle with his or her respective additional strikes?

Well, actually, I did that sort of thing once 'back then' (referring
to a less rules-enlightened VTES gaming phase).

My Blaise stole a Flamethrower with Fast Hands from Salinger, gained
an additional strike, swooshed, then played Amaranth. Didn't seem
out-of-place or over-the-top for me... ;) Kind of felt like what I did
in another game with Salinger to Regina Giovanni. Immortal Grapple,
Undead Strength, Disarm, Decapitate.

I think the prime reason for the rule could be that Fast Hands is a
Celerity card.

Bye,

Daneel

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