Mata Hari/Gargoyle question

[John Flournoy]

Want to verify:

When a Tremere plays 'Create Gargoyle', the resulting Gargoyle is
considered a slave to Clan Tremere - even if the acting Tremere later
Clan Impersonates to (arbitarily) Ventrue, because the card doesn't
look backwards to keep checking what clan it is a slave to.

So since that's the case, when Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle as a
Tremere with her 'as if she were a member of that clan' special, the
resulting Gargoyle is a slave to Tremere, and not Ravnos, because at
the point where the master-clan is checked for, she's counting as a
Tremere for the effects of the Create Gargoyle she's playing?

-John Flournoy

[jnew...@difsol.com]

Or !Tremere, whichever she plays it as. Yes.

John

[Jozxyqk]

jnew...@difsol.com wrote:

However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect.

So if Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle "as a Tremere", she should
create an Independent Tremere Slave (due to the fact that Create Gargoyle's
card text specifically gains the Sect of the acting vampire). Correct?

[Sten During]

Jozxyqk wrote:

>
> However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect.
>
> So if Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle "as a Tremere", she should
> create an Independent Tremere Slave (due to the fact that Create Gargoyle's
> card text specifically gains the Sect of the acting vampire). Correct?

I'd think yes, and no.

She'll create a Tremere Slave (or !Tremere Slave) of the same sect
as she currently belongs to. Eg, she Clan Impersonated to Lasombra
earlier and thus the Gargoyle would be Sabbat no matter if she chose
to make it Tremere or !Tremere.

Sten During

[vol...@yahoo.com]

>However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect.

Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or
!Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla
whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue.

So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can
always go anarch...

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago

[John Flournoy]

vol...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect.
>
> Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or
> !Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla
> whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue.

I don't think I agree with what you're saying here.

The arguments made about Kemintiri revolve around LSJ pointing out that
"'Requires a justicar' is shorthand for 'Requires a Camarilla vampire
with a justicar title'".

But 'Requires a Ventrue' is NOT the same thing as 'Requires a Camarilla
Ventrue'; nothing prevents Mata Hari from playing cards as an
independent Ventrue, nor does anything about playing a card as a
Ventrue inherently or by card text override the text on her card saying
"Independent" and force her to play cards as a Camarilla Ventrue.

If there was a hypothetical 'requires an Anarch Tremere' card, and Mata
Hari was Anarch, she could play it; choosing to play it as a Tremere
would not force her to also play it as a Camarilla Tremere.

> So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can
> always go anarch...

So she'd almost certainly be playing Create Gargoyle as either an
Independent Tremere or an Independent !Tremere, and the card text of
Create Gargoyle checks the creator's specific sect, not the default
sect of whatever clan the creator is.

And this sort of question is why I'm waiting for LSJ to step in with
Official answers.

> Eric Simon
> Prince of Chicago

-John Flournoy
-Underling of Chicago

[LSJ]

John Flournoy wrote:
> vol...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect.
>>Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or
>>!Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla
>>whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue.
>
> I don't think I agree with what you're saying here.
>
> The arguments made about Kemintiri revolve around LSJ pointing out that
> "'Requires a justicar' is shorthand for 'Requires a Camarilla vampire
> with a justicar title'".
>
> But 'Requires a Ventrue' is NOT the same thing as 'Requires a Camarilla
> Ventrue'; nothing prevents Mata Hari from playing cards as an
> independent Ventrue, nor does anything about playing a card as a
> Ventrue inherently or by card text override the text on her card saying
> "Independent" and force her to play cards as a Camarilla Ventrue.
>
> If there was a hypothetical 'requires an Anarch Tremere' card, and Mata
> Hari was Anarch, she could play it; choosing to play it as a Tremere
> would not force her to also play it as a Camarilla Tremere.

Correct. If she is Independent and plays a card that requires a Tremere
as a Tremere, she plays it as an Independent Tremere.

>>So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can
>>always go anarch...
>
> So she'd almost certainly be playing Create Gargoyle as either an
> Independent Tremere or an Independent !Tremere, and the card text of
> Create Gargoyle checks the creator's specific sect, not the default
> sect of whatever clan the creator is.

Correct.

> And this sort of question is why I'm waiting for LSJ to step in with
> Official answers.

If a correct answer is given and no incorrect ones are, there's no need
for me to step in.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

[Darky]

It's good to know the other people weren't just guessing, though.

-Bram Vink

[LSJ]

Darky wrote:
>>If a correct answer is given and no incorrect ones are, there's no
>
> need
>
>>for me to step in.
>
>
> It's good to know the other people weren't just guessing, though.

You'll know they're right because I don't step in to offer
a correction. :-)

If you absolutely have to have my word in it, put [LSJ] in
the subject.