Official VEKN Malkavian Antitribu NEWSLETTER, December 2004
Ector
VOLUME IV, Issue III
0. ERRATA
My previous newsletter was dedicated to anti-Malkavian combat
abilities (err... combat disabilities, for sure). Somehow I managed to
miss the best defensive card available for our clan disciplines,
Gemini's Mirror:
Name: Gemini's Mirror
[BH:C]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] Strike: dodge with an optional maneuver.
[OBF]Only usable before range is determined. When resolving each
strike against this vampire, flip a coin. If it's tails, the strike
has no effect on this vampire. This lasts until heads is flipped or
combat ends. A vampire can play only one Gemini's Mirror at superior
each combat.
If you look at the superior abilities first (as I always do), you're
going to repeat my mistake and overlook this card. Superior ability
isn't very good - just look at the expected results, assuming you
aren't cheating with the coin:
50% of the time it will do nothing (heads is flipped);
25% of the time it will prevent only one strike (tails and heads
flipped);
12.5% of the time it will prevent two strikes, and so on.
Average number of prevented strikes is close to 1, if number of
strikes is high enough, but who needs such "improved dodge" for 1
blood? Surely, this ability is better than Dodge, since it's not a
strike, you can strike with something else, and it's unaffected by
Immortal Grapple and Thoughts Betrayed. But if your opponent can
strike only once in a given combat (no additional strikes and no
presses), this card works only 50% of the time, which isn't good
enough for 1 blood. Obviously, this ability becomes much better if YOU
are planning to continue combat, and I guess that Gemini's Mirror
would shine in Nosferatu Trap/Carrion Crows decks (Gemini is
Nosferatu, you know). Malkavians antitribu can use this ability
against multiple-strike and multiple-round combat decks, when a single
maneuver+dodge won't be enough.
Nevertheless, the best part of this card is its inferior ability. You
get both maneuver and dodge in a single card, and this is generally
enough to save your vampire. Immortal Grapple deck will be forced to
play BOTH maneuver and IG to deal any damage in the first round.
Single-strike combat without IG, Thoughts
Betrayed or presses is completely hosed by this card. Moreover, if you
know that your opponent has no Grapples/Thoughts Betrayed, and he
chooses his strike first, you may dump maneuver to get sudden dodge...
this sometimes foils an expensive strike like Burning Wrath or Coma :)
Obviuosly, Gemini's Mirror isn't as good against multiple-strike and
multiple-round combat. When maneuver is useless, Dodge is better for a
non-combat deck, since it is free, but in this situation you can use
superior ability of Gemini's Mirror. If you were lucky with the first
strike, your opponents will think twice before playing their Blur or
press to continue combat, as your luck may stay with you until combat
ends.
Note that this card is very good even with INFERIOR Obfuscate, and
virtually all !Malkavian vampires (except for Boy Toy, Idalia and
Muriel Foucade) can play it. Unsurprisingly, all !Malkavian deck use
Obfuscate (a Malk who cannot hide is a dead Malk), so the mentioned
vampires aren't popular anyway.
This card would shine in any Obfuscate-based deck, including weenie
Obfuscate. Even 1-capacity Basil can play Gemini's Mirror... heck,
even Marijava Thuggee can do it! If you still remember Run Away Like a
Mad (a card that I invented in the previous newsletter), I've got a
good news for you: Gemini's Mirror allows you to defend without Run
Away, so the latter card was my mistake. This card is truly
outstanding.
1. INTRODUCTION
This newsletter is about voting decks. Most successful voting decks
are based on Presence, since this Discipline provides the best
supporting cards. Voter Captivation is the most important as it
provides a lot of blood and even 2 pool at superior. Bewitching
Oration and Awe provide a lot of additional votes and make a good
combo with Voter Captivation. As voting decks usually run huge
vampires to get a lot of votes, Voter Captivations allow them to
recover after Minion Tap.
Malkavians antitribu have no Presence, but they do have stealth, which
is extremely helpful for playing political actions. Each political
action has inbuilt +1 stealth, but there are decks capable of blocking
such actions, and having one intercepting neighbour is generally
enough to make your game extremely difficult... UNLESS you have
additional stealth.
Surely, Malkavians antitribu aren't the only vampires with votes and
Obfuscate. Setites have both Obfuscate and Presence, and Nosferatu
voting decks are well-known and strong enough, but !Malks also have
their advantages that can be wisely exploited.
2. HERE WE ARE
Building a voting deck without Presence is rather difficult. Though we
have some good cards to push our votes, there are no other Voter
Captivations. To push our votes we can use Private Audience, which
prevents Camarilla and Independent vampires from voting or Telepathic
Vote Counting that forces one vampire to abstain. Or just Bribe other
players to vote for us. Personally I prefer permanent sources of votes
like Powerbase: Madrid or Legendary Vampire. The latter card was
suggested by James Coupe, who has my gratitude: there are no cards
better suited for !Malkavian voting/bleeding deck, as you gain both
bleed modifier and votes.
The key for success in voting is having good vampires with votes and
be able to survive long enough. Voting decks aren't especially quick,
thus you have to pack serious amount of defense and bloat cards.
Speaking about stealth-voting deck, Nosferatu can pack some agressive
combat cards instead of defense, and they even
have access to Animal Magnetism , while we have absolutely no support
from our primary Discipline (Dementation), and surviving combat will
always be difficult for our clan. Fortunately, we have some very
efficient voting vampires, and we can play The Call to bloat/influence
vampires faster or Sibyl's Tongue to
find needed cards. We can also bounce bleeds (a serious advantage
compared to Nosferatu), and, of course, we can bleed ourselves!
3. CARDS OF THE MONTH
Name: Powerbase: Madrid
[SW:R, BH:PM]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood
bank if it has less than 4 counters. Tap to give a titled Sabbat
vampire X additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number
of counters on this card. Any vampire controlled by another Methuselah
can take a (D) action to burn all the counters on this card.
This is the best permanent source of votes for titled Sabbat vampires,
except for Regent or Power Structure, which aren't suitable to our
clan. This card doesn't require a Sabbat vampire, so you can play it
on the first turn and accumulate a few counters while influencing your
first vampire. If nobody would
burn counters from Powerbase, you will gain 4 extra votes for one
referendum per turn, which is even better than having a free
Bewitching Oration in your sleeve. You may tap Powerbase during
opponent's referendum to make the referendum fail; you may use it
during a Blood Hunt referendum (this can enable diablerie);
finally, you may give votes to a vampire controlled by another player.
Thus,
even if you'll have no titled vampires, you'll be able to "sell"
Powerbase votes to other Sabbat players.
Certainly, your opponents can burn Powerbase counters, but,
fortunately, not the Powerbase itself. The difference is huge, since
players are unlikely to waste precious actions to deny you the votes
for a couple of turns. After all, you'll gain the first counter on
your next untap phase anyway. If somebody sends a
little vampire (say, Embrace) to burn counters, you may easily block
the action, as it doesn't have inherent stealth. Most players will
leave the Powerbase to you, especially if they won't be playing voting
decks themselves.
Since Powerbase: Madrid is a rare card from Sabbat War, if would be
difficult enough to find it, but, fortunately, it's also included into
anti-Malkavian starter. Just purchase the starter, and you'll get your
Powerbase with a bunch of Kindred Spirits and other useful cards. Get
it!
Name: Private Audience
[SW:C/PV]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Requires a ready archbishop, priscus or cardinal. Only usable during a
referendum, before any votes are cast.
Non-Sabbat vampires cannot vote on the current referendum.
This card is worse than its Camarilla analogue (Closed Session), since
it isn't free, but metagame oddities actually make it a better card.
As Camarilla clans are generally better in politics than Sabbat clans
(for a multitude of reasons: access to Presence, Inner Circle
vampires, clan-specific cards etc), it's much more likely to encounter
a Camarilla voting deck than a Sabbat voting deck. Thus, Private
Audience is much more powerful, as it hoses more powerful Camarilla
voting decks.
Usefulness of this card, obviously, depends on your deck and the
metagame. If you have a lot of Sabbat votes, you may be able to push
your referendums even without this card. But if you have just a few
votes, other Sabbat players may have more votes than you. I believe
that Private Audience is most useful in decks with medium number of
votes (5-6 votes, for instance). Speaking about Malkavians antitribu,
you would like to use Private Audience in a deck with Korah, Marie
Faucigny and General Perfidio Dios, but a deck with Hannibals and
Maris Streck, like my "Deck of the Month" can probably work without it
(don't forget that Maris Streck is a Camarilla vampire!)
Name: Telepathic Vote Counting
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, SW:PV, CE:R2/PTo, Anarchs:PAB, BH:PM]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Auspex
Only usable during a referendum.
[aus] Cancel the referendum. If you played a political card to call
this referendum, take the card back into your hand (and discard back
down to your hand size). Any votes cast are lost.
[AUS] Force a vampire to abstain from voting. This can cancel that
vampire's votes.
This card isn't as powerful as Private Audience, but at least it's
free and universal - you may use its superior effect against any
vampire on the table. Forcing a vampire to abstain is very good,
especially against Inner Circles, and you can do it when all vampires
already cast their votes.
Inferior ability is going to be played rarely enough (unless you want
to cycle your cards), but it may be very useful sometimes. Imagine you
are trying to play a political card, but your opponents have
Powerbase:Madrid, Ventrue Headquarters or another vote-providing
location. He taps his location, somebody burns the Edge, and your
referendum is going to fail, but you play Telepathic Vote Counting,
return the political action into your hand and play it with a
different vampire! Nothing prevents you from doing this, as this card
isn't Delaying Tactics.
4. VAMPIRE OF THE MONTH
Name: Hannibal (advanced)
[Promo-20040409]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Malkavian antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 10
Discipline: cel dom AUS DEM OBF
Advanced, Sabbat cardinal:
Once during each Methuselah's minion phase, Hannibal may burn 2 blood
to untap.
Hannibal is the elder of our clan, a single cardinal we have. Ten
capacity is a lot, but there are no cardinals cheaper than nine. Such
vampires usually possess superior level of all clan Disciplines and
provide powerful abilities besides that - just look at Lambach or
Ambrosio Luis Moncada! Fortunately, advanced Hannibal also has some
tricks in his sleeve:
* Inferior Celerity. Not very useful at inferior, but can be upgraded
to superior level, which grants Blurs for your weapons and many other
things.
* Inferior Dominate. Hannibal can play Obedience, and that's wonderful
for such combat-lacking clan as !Malks. He can also play Deflection,
Redirection and other useful Dominate cards. Really helpful.
* Ability to untap during each minion phase for 2 blood. Wow, isn't it
wonderful? This ability allows Hannibal to perform two actions per
turn. The most devastating usage of this tactics involves bleeding,
untapping and playing a political action. If you manage to play
Legendary Vampire on Hannibal (the
brilliant advice of James Coupe), you will be able to finish opponent
in two turns without any other vampires: bleed for 3 (or more), then
untap and Kine Resources Contested, having 5 votes from the lone
Hannibal!
Obviously, paying 2 blood for untapping looks like a huge price, so
you can pretend that you aren't going to play two actions per turn
until your prey crosses the "red line". Meanwhile you can untap
Hannibal to block especially dangerous actions of your predator (and
play Obedience) or to bounce heavy bleeds. This should convince the
table that you're just another slow and peaceful voting deck... which
is certainly just a bluff, as there are no such thing as "peaceful
anti-Malks" :)
Did you notice the words "looks like a huge price" in the previous
paragraph? Just another false impression, I assure you. When a vampire
untaps with Freak Drive for 1 blood AND A CARD, this is considered
very good, though Freak Drive allows untapping only on your turn. When
you spend an action and 4 blood to
get Rutor's Hand, this is also considered good enough, though you get
a benefit compared to Hannibal's ability only on the fourth turn! Note
that you still have to find the Rutor's Hand, while Hannibal's ability
is always with him. Advanced Hannibal is really powerful, though
making use of his power is far more difficult than just block with
Lazverinus...
5. DECK OF THE MONTH
Deck Name : Hannibal the Restless
Author : Ilya Ginsburg
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.5
------------------------------------------------------------
4x Hannibal Adv 10 AUS DEM OBF cel dom cardinal !Malkavian:2
3x Maris Streck 9 AUS OBF ani dem dom justicar Malkavian:3
3x Korah 7 AUS DEM OBF ani priscus !Malkavian:2
2x Marie Faucigny 7 AUS OBF dem tha archbishop !Malkavian:3
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [11]
6x Call, The
1x Pulse of the Canaille
4x Sibyl's Tongue
Action Modifier [19]
4x Elder Impersonation
3x Faceless Night
3x Forgotten Labyrinth
4x Lost in Crowds
5x Spying Mission
Action Modifier/Combat [5]
5x Swallowed by the Night
Combat [2]
2x Coma
Equipment [2]
1x Aaron's Feeding Razor
1x Ivory Bow
Master [17]
1x Elysium: The Arboretum
1x Hungry Coyote, The
2x Information Highway
1x Institution Hunting Ground
1x Legendary Vampire
6x Minion Tap
1x Perfectionist
1x Powerbase: Madrid
1x Purchase Pact
2x Sudden Reversal
Political Action [17]
1x Ancient Influence
5x Banishment
1x Disputed Territory
1x Dramatic Upheaval
6x Kine Resources Contested
3x Parity Shift
Reaction [17]
6x Obedience
6x Telepathic Misdirection
5x Wake with Evening's Freshness
This deck is my humble attempt to build a voting deck with !Malks and,
specifically, to get the most of advanced Hannibal. The crypt is very
heavy, as I tried to get rid of the "vote-pushing" cards and to
replace them with "permanent votes" of my vampires. If you manage to
influence Hannibal, Maris Streck and Korah, you will have 9 permanent
votes for 26 pool, which is pretty realistic with a help from Minion
Taps, The Calls, Ancient Influence and Parity Shifts. If eight or nine
votes isn't enough, Powerbase: Madrid can provide even more votes!
This deck even doesn't need Cardinal Benediction, as the most you can
gain from this card is +1 vote for Marie Faucigny.
As you can see, bloating and acceleration occupy a solid number of
card slots, as the decks really wants to compensate for the size of
its vampires. Information Highway and The Call really speed things up,
and these two cards make a good combo when you just want to gain 3
pool, thus Information Highway never becomes useless for this deck.
The primary sources of pool gaining are Minion Taps, but you should
play them carefully, as Hannibal or Maris without blood cannot use
their abilities.
Unsuprisingly, blood management is one the most important parts of
this deck, as you need to refill your vampires prior to playing Minion
Tap or using expensive abilities. The Hungry Coyote is the best card
for all your vampires, except for Maris Streck, and there are Aaron's
Feeding Razor and Perfectionist. If you
have The Hungry Coyote, and your Hannibal has Perfectionist and AFR,
he can potentially get +4 blood with a single hunt action! Combine
double hunt per turn with Minion Taps, and you will get really good
bloating; alternatively, you can hunt, untap and do something else
until your Hannibal regains his blood back. Feel free to play your
Sibyl's Tongues for these cards, as they are really important. If you
get your Hunting Ground or steal opponent's HG with Disputed
Territory, this will definitely help.
Combat protection was my headache while building this deck. Finally, I
decided to lower the number of protection cards, but to keep the most
powerful of them. Obedience is really good, and it can be played by
Hannibal and Maris Streck (more than a half of the crypt). Even if
both Hannibal and Maris are tapped when
opponent rushes at +1 stealth, you still can untap Hannibal, let Maris
give him +1 intercept, block and play Obedience. As you have both
Sabbat and Camarilla vamps, you can use both Elysium: the Arboretum
and Purchase Pact, and it's very unlikely that someone manages to burn
these card with a referendum. Thus, you
may just choose a blocker of the attacker's sect and tap the
corresponding card. Again, both cards, when needed, are perfect
targets for Sibyl's Tongue.
You have also "aggressive combat cards" that are used as a threats:
Ivory Bow and two Coma. While the Bow goes without any doubts, Coma
needs serious considerations, and I must admit that this deck is a
much better place for Coma than a stealth-bleed deck. This deck has
really large vampires that can play Coma and still survive opponent's
strike without going into torpor, and it has a lot of votes to
diablerize all victims of Coma. In this deck Coma is really fearful.
As this deck has only 17 Political actions, you may consider this
number too low to call it a voting deck, but all these cards, except
for Ancient Influence, are very aggressive, so your opponents are
going to count them twice :) Core political actions are Banishment and
Kine Resources Contested that finely
accompany bleeding at stealth which, I guess, is a hallmark of all
anti-Malk decks.
Primary combo of this deck is Hannibal + Legendary Vampire or Pulse of
the Canaille. If you see Legendary Vampire in your starting hand,
influence Hannibal first. If you have Sibyl's Tongue, you may prefer
Korah or Marie Faucigny first to play Sibyl's Tongue for the Legendary
Vampire, but it's realy isn't that
crucial. You can spend your Sibyl's Tongue for an urgently needed card
(Elysium, Secure Haven etc) and still have a decent chance of getting
another Sibyl's Tongue or the needed bleed modifier later in the game.
If you fail to make Hannibal legendary, you can play Legendary Vampire
later on someone else, as ALL
your vampires have capacity 7 or more, and you will eventually find
your Pulse of the Canaille that will make Hannibal a terrifying
destruction engine.
It's hard to predict whether the deck is tournament-viable or not, but
IMHO it's at least worth trying. I will appreciate any comments and
improvements.
6. THE NIGHTMARES BECOMING REAL (previous "SWEET DREAMS")
I will review the ten new cards that are going to be printed in 10th
Anniversary Set. Each tin will contain these cards, so everyone will
be able to find them. Unsurprisingly, the cards are quite strong, at
least some of them, and they will radically change the metagame.
Rastacourere
+1 stealth Action
1 pool
(D) Put this card on a titled vampire. The vampire's title is worth 1
less vote during referendums, and he or she gets -1 stealth when
attempting political actions. This vampire's capacity is reduced by 1
(not going below 1). A vampire may have only 1 Rastacourere.
Very strong card against voting decks, especially against Prisci, as
Priscus with 1 less vote has no votes at all. This card was designed
primarily for combat-heavy decks without access to intercept (Brujah,
Assamites etc.) or not willing to pack intercept cards. All political
actions have +1 stealth by default, but Rastacouriere cancels this
bonus, allowing any vampire to block political actions performed by
vampire with this card. Obviously, this card would be useless for
intercept decks that can easily block any political action.
Overall: Combat-oriented decks are stronger, voting decks are weaker.
Powerbase: Los Angeles
Master: unique location
Tap during your discard phase to gain a discard phase action. If you
use that discard phase action to discard a card that requires an
anarch or a card that makes a vampire an anarch you may untap a ready
anarch. Any anarch controlled by another Methuselah may steal this
location for his Methuselah as a (D) action.
Very good card. Not as good as The Barrens if you have no anarch
cards, but really amazing in Anarch decks, especially
intercept-oriented ones. Intercept is needed to protect the Powerbase.
Looks like intercept decks would prefer this card to The Barrens, as
it's much less likely to become contested or stolen.
Expect the new generation of Anarch intercept decks with this card.
The Mole is a good card, and there is Ian Forestal that can play all
anarch cards...
Overall: Intercept and aharch decks are stronger.
Polaris Coach
Vehicle. Haven.
1 blood
During your untap phase, move 1 blood from this vampire to the Polaris
Coach or burn the Polaris Coach.
While this vampire is acting, he or she may burn one counter from the
Polaris Coach to get +1 stealth for the current action. During
undirected actions and actions that are not directed at this vampire,
he or she cannot block or play reaction cards. A minion may have only
one haven and only one vehicle.
This is a long-awaited "stealth for all" card. The price is so harsh
that I doubt it would see play. For the same price you can get Robert
Carter that provides +2 bleed! Please don't tell me that you're going
to play Repo Men to fetch your Polaris Coaches :) Some weird deck will
possibly use it, though...
Overall: Won't affect the metagame.
Orc of Ulain
Unique equipment
The ALLY with this equipment cannot be targeted by (D) actions that
require AUS, CHI, DOM, PRE, SER. Reactions that require any of those
disciplines cost an additional blood while this ally is acting.
To play such cards one should have a lot of allies, or at least some
precious allies like War Ghouls. Orc of Ulain protects your ally from
the most popular anti-ally cards like Entrancement or Far Mastery. It
also makes blocking your allies and bouncing their bleed much more
expensive, as most of needed cards are AUS and DOM-based reactions.
The most tricky usage of this card involves The Grandest Trick itself
:)
Overall: Offers minor improvement for ally-based decks.
Liquidation
Master. Do not replace until your next discard phase.
Burn seven cards from the top of your library to gain 3 pool.
Brilliant card! Who cares about cards in your library if you are going
to die? Name another Master card that immediately provides 3 pool
without draining blood of your vampires. This card will be most
effective combined with a lot of blood-requiring cards, when you
cannot drain blood of your minions. Tzimisce,
Assamites and Ravnos will appreciate this card. I guess it would be
amazing in Smiling Jack decks, Anarch Revolt decks and weenie decks,
as such decks don't expect a long game anyway, so they can dump extra
cards.
Liquidation makes a good combo with Anatole, Prophet of Gehenna. You
can look at the top five cards of your library and dump them if you
need someting else. Liquidation is also good when you can fetch cards
from your ash heap (i.e. Giovanni).
Overall: Decks with a lot of blood-expensive cards are stronger. This
mostly applies to combat-oriented decks based on Vicissitude, Quietus,
Chimerstry etc. New combo decks are possible.
Insurance Scam
Master
Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and
burn X locations you control to gain X pool.
The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can be
stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations
that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that use
such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly
unplayable.
Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations.
Channel 10
Master: unique location
2 pool
Tap to give a minion you control +2 intercept for the current action.
Not usable on the first action in a minion phase.
This card is just another intercept-providing location, but it's the
first location that provide whopping +2 intercept. Since the card has
NO requirements, it's available to any deck, and it really hoses any
decks based on stealth. It's still balanced and "fair" card
(especially compared to Bowl of Convergence), since you cannot "sell"
your intercept to other players, and you cannot use it on the first
action, but the card is very strong. Stealth-based deck needs +3
stealth or "cannot block" effect each turn (Elder Impersonation or
Seduction) each turn to compensate for this one card - otherwise you
will be limited to one action per turn.
Again, this card is best suited for combat-oriented decks that cannot
spend a lot of place on intercept cards or have no intercept
disciplines, like Brujah. Obviously, Brujah deck with Second
Traditions and Channels 10 is likely to block at least some actions
and pound the caught vampire hardly.
Overall: Combat-oriented decks are much stronger. Intercept decks are
stronger, too, as they can pack less intercept cards with Channel 10.
Stealth-based decks are seriously hosed.
Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
Unique mortal ally with 2 life
0 strength, 0 bleed.
2 pool
Carlton can strike for 1R. He may dodge as a strike once each combat,
Charlton has +1 intercept when blocking vampires. During your discard
phase you may burn Carlton to burn a vampire who has committed
diablerie since your last turn.
Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least +2
stealth for any action. A deck with decent combat abilities will
probably kill him, but such decks usually don't pack a lot of stealth.
Charlton provides a cheap protection against voting decks and even
against stealth decks. It makes Fast
Reaction much better, as you can block with expendable Charlton, dodge
and make the strong vampire "rush" with Fast Reaction. As the primary
benefit of Fast Reaction is the lack of response, this tactics is best
suitable for aggressive but fragile strategies like Quietus or
Vicissitude.
Charlton's second ability seriously hoses all diablerie-based decks,
even with Archons like Muaziz. You can suddenly summon him and
sacrifice him on the same turn, so any diablerie becomes much more
dangerous now.
Overall: Diablerie-based decks are seriously hosed. Voting decks
without stealth and offensive combat (additional strikes, presses
etc.) are hosed as well. Intercept decks are stronger. Combat decks
with Auspex and very aggressive strikes but low protection are much
stronger due to the Fast Reaction.
Caiaphas Smith
1 pool
Unique mortal with 2 life 1 strength 0 bleed
Caiaphas may strike for 1R damage. Caiaphas get an optional maneuver
each combat. Any vampire blocking Caiaphas is burned after the combat
(if any). Caiaphas cannot bleed. If he is untapped at the start of
your turn, your predator takes control of him.
This card is too hard to use. You cannot force opponent to block
Caiaphas (at least for now), and he can't perform really dangerous
actions to make opponents block it. I guess he can be used to equip
something, when you finally get him :)
Overall: Won't affect the metagame.
Bowl of Convergence
Unique equipment.
If the bearer is a vampire who has aus, the bearer gets +1 intercept.
If the bearer has AUS, he or she can burn 1 blood once during each
action to get an additional +1 intercept for the current action.
WHAT??? Take a vampire with AUS, play Bowl of Convergence, and the
vampire will get permanent +1 intercept with a possibility to get
another +1 for a blood? I simply can't believe my eyes. This card
doesn't simply "hose" stealth decks, it destroys them!
One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough to
completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2 permanent
intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and
Seduction can push your actions. And she WILL burn blood for +1
intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :( Moreover, she
can easily fetch the Bowl with Magic of the Smith.
Do you need other examples to call this card broken? Here you are.
Take Ladislas Toth, or Sascha Vykos, or Meshenka, or Lazverinus, play
Eternal Vigilance and the Bowl. Untap, block, then untap and block
again... Steal blood in combat with Theft of Vitae or Kraken's Kiss.
Just another Wall deck? No, since there would
be enough space for some "primary" cards like bleed modifiers, as the
deck would need much less intercept cards.
Now, imagine the dreaded Bowl on the Anneke that just played Alastor
for Assault Rifle. She would quickly intercept and dispatch all prey's
vampires... again, the key of improvement is increased space for
combat and bleed cards that would replace intercept cards. One Second
Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily
replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch,
Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it
would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks.
Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth
decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat
strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.
************************ RIP ****************************
time...@mail.com
[snip excellent NL]
Hi Ector,
Excellent read! Especially since I have myself been delving into the
political possibilities of the !Malkavians. But as for vote-pushing,
nothing beats Derange! In the deck I build a while ago after
liquidating a couple of decks I use it to strip camarilla Princes etc.
of their votes making them !Malks and Maris does it vice versa. As a
significant side effect it slows down the table which is a good thing
for this type of deck. I don't have the deck with me but it is
somewhere along the lines of this:
Sanctum Sanatorium
Crypt: 12
2 Hannibal
1 Hannibal Adv
3 Maris Schreck
1 Korah
1 Quenton King III basic
1 Marie Faucigny (whatsername?)
1 The Colonel
1 Uncle George
1 General Perfio Dios
Library: 90
Master:15
1 Gift of Experience
1 Direct Intervention
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Powerbase: Madrid
1 Giant's Blood
1 Hungry Coyote
1 Creepshow Casino
1 Church of the Order...bla bla
2 Blood Doll
4 Minion Tap
Reaction:16
7 Telepathic Misdirection
6 Wake with Evening's Freshness
3 Voice of Madness
Action: 18
2 The Call
3 Sybyl's Tongue
9 Derange
5 Madman's Quill
Political :13
7 Kine Resources Contested
2 Dramatic Upheaval
4 Parity Shift
Action mods : 14
2 Eyes of Chaos
4 Lost in Crowds
2 Faceless Night
2 Elder Impersonation
2 Forgotten Labyrinth
2 Spying Mission
Combat: 8
2 Behind You!
5 Gemini's Mirror
1 Reality Mirror
Combo:6
4 Swallowed by the Night
2 Deny
I haven't had the time to play it yet abd it'll probably die horribly
against heavy combat.
Whaddaya think....
John Flournoy
> 6. THE NIGHTMARES BECOMING REAL (previous "SWEET DREAMS")
>
> Rastacouere
As someone noted elsewhere, Rastacouere'ing Anson stops him from being
a legitimate Golconda target...
>
>
> Polaris Coach
> Vehicle. Haven.
> 1 blood
> During your untap phase, move 1 blood from this vampire to the Polaris
> Coach or burn the Polaris Coach.
>
> While this vampire is acting, he or she may burn one counter from the
> Polaris Coach to get +1 stealth for the current action. During
> undirected actions and actions that are not directed at this vampire,
> he or she cannot block or play reaction cards. A minion may have only
> one haven and only one vehicle.
>
> This is a long-awaited "stealth for all" card. The price is so harsh
> that I doubt it would see play. For the same price you can get Robert
> Carter that provides +2 bleed! Please don't tell me that you're going
> to play Repo Men to fetch your Polaris Coaches :) Some weird deck will
> possibly use it, though...
> Overall: Won't affect the metagame.
I heartily disagree. You can get _A_ Robert Carter for +2 bleed - but
you can give ALL your minions a Polaris Coach. I fully expect to see
some decks in the future to take full advantage of it - like a Tremere
deck that spends a couple of turns Magic of the Smithing coaches onto
all the minions and stockpiling counters, before swarm-bleeding with
every minion at Polaris-stealth.
Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I
expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial
Estates.
> Orc of Ulain
> The most tricky usage of this card involves The Grandest Trick itself
> :)
Heh! Hadn't thought of that.
> Insurance Scam
> Master
> Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and
> burn X locations you control to gain X pool.
>
> The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can be
> stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations
> that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that use
> such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly
> unplayable.
> Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations.
Other uses you missed:
Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy,
Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc.
Decks that want to include multiple copies of a cheap unique location,
like all the decks that include 4 or 5 Info Highways (to try to get
one out on the first turn). Subsequent drawings can now be disposed of
by Scamming the first copy and playing the next one, gaining a pool in
the process. (Yeah, it turns the extra copies into Ascendances, but
that's better than leaving them as dead-cards.)
Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool.
Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in an
environment that plays locations.
A nice counter to "My predator just brought out Arika and I'm playing
with locations" - that NEVER happens! :P
> Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least +2
> stealth for any action.
Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to
block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in
untapping them.
> Bowl of Convergence
> Unique equipment.
> If the bearer is a vampire who has aus, the bearer gets +1 intercept.
> If the bearer has AUS, he or she can burn 1 blood once during each
> action to get an additional +1 intercept for the current action.
>
> One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough to
> completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2 permanent
> intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and
> Seduction can push your actions.
Only Elder Impersonation and Seduction... and Beast Meld, and Horrific
Countenance, and Daring the Dawn, and Day Op, and Blanket of Night,
and Call the Hungry Dead, and Siren's Lure, and Flaming Candle, and
Sunrise Service, and Grandest Trick, and Psychomachia, and a whole
bunch of pre-arranged cards like Blood Bond, and (conditionally)
Approximation of Loyalty or Crocodile's Tongue or Deed the Heart's
Desire or Sleeping Mind.
Just to name a few.
Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many
stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the Ventrue
w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten
Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've got
more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my
intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth
on a vote called by my predator's vampire.
> And she WILL burn blood for +1
> intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :(
Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in
any way, sure.
> Now, imagine the dreaded Bowl on the Anneke that just played Alastor
> for Assault Rifle. She would quickly intercept and dispatch all prey's
> vampires... again, the key of improvement is increased space for
> combat and bleed cards that would replace intercept cards.
No argument here. Nasty, nasty deck.
> One Second Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily
> replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch,
> Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it
> would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks.
Cause stealth decks never win these days, huh?
> Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth
> decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat
> strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.
Or the !Malk deck can simply pack a Bowl or two of its own to plan to
contest it, just as many decks pack a Fame or two now to contest
against Rush decks. It is unique, after all.
-John Flournoy
Matthew T. Morgan
Deck yourself (Potchtli Twister, Liquidation, whatever) with Insurance
Scam and Waste Management Operation in play. Play Powerbase: Montreal
every turn and blow it up every turn after using it.
The fact that the card can be used any time during one's turn seems pretty
strong. Steal someone's Rack and burn it for a pool. No more "well,
he'll just steal it back."
Matt Morgan
Ec...@mail.ru
time...@mail.com wrote:
> [snip excellent NL]
>
> Hi Ector,
>
> Excellent read! Especially since I have myself been >delving into the
nothing beats
> Derange!
Never thought about Derange in a voting decks... thanks for the idea!
Unfortunately, the Princes will regain their titles when they move
Derange to another vampires. Thus, I don't think that the idea is
really good.
Ector
time...@mail.com
However with enough of them one can flood the table with them. And
while Princes can tuy to get rid of them, it takes them an action.
Succes in VTES is somewhat measured in the number of succesfull actions
a player can take. Derange reduces this number and is still blockable.
With 6-8 base votes of your own 1-2 deranges are going to hurt any
Cammie deck IMHO.
I'll try it sometime and let you know.
T
Ec...@mail.ru
John Flournoy wrote:
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message
news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>...
>
being
> a legitimate Golconda target...
> > Polaris Coach
> > Overall: Won't affect the metagame.
>
> I heartily disagree. You can get _A_ Robert Carter for +2 bleed - but
> you can give ALL your minions a Polaris Coach. I fully expect to see
> some decks in the future to take full advantage of it - like a
Tremere
> deck that spends a couple of turns Magic of the Smithing coaches onto
> all the minions and stockpiling counters, before swarm-bleeding with
> every minion at Polaris-stealth.
>
> Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I
> expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial
> Estates.
This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from
draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even
if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage.
Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just
to force you to burn it.
And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :(
> > Insurance Scam
> > Master
> > Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and
> > burn X locations you control to gain X pool.
> >
> > The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can
be
> > stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations
> > that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that
use
> > such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly
> > unplayable.
> > Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations.
>
> Other uses you missed:
>
> Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy,
> Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc.
With Liquidation to reduce library size, maybe. But I don't consider
the combo really powerful.
> Decks that want to include multiple copies of a cheap unique
location,
> like all the decks that include 4 or 5 Info Highways (to try to get
> one out on the first turn). Subsequent drawings can now be disposed
of
> by Scamming the first copy and playing the next one, gaining a pool
in
> the process. (Yeah, it turns the extra copies into Ascendances, but
> that's better than leaving them as dead-cards.)
You are completely right here. Even with 2 Info Highways Scamming it
when it isn't needed anymore is better than nothing. Four Info Highways
definitely justify one Insurance Scam in the deck.
> Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool.
And waste a master phase :) Not a good example, IMHO.
> Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in
> an environment that plays locations.
When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location,
not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important.
> A nice counter to "My predator just brought out Arika and I'm playing
> with locations" - that NEVER happens! :P
Well, you just get some extra pool for your locations, nothing more.
Arika will quickly negate the pool gain with her +2 bleed :)
> > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least
+2
> > stealth for any action.
>
> Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to
> block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in
> untapping them.
For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions
unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will
block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn
or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards.
> > Bowl of Convergence
<skipped>
> > One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough
to
> > completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2
permanent
> > intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and
> > Seduction can push your actions.
>
> Only Elder Impersonation and Seduction... and Beast Meld, and
Horrific
> Countenance, and Daring the Dawn, and Day Op, and Blanket of Night,
> and Call the Hungry Dead, and Siren's Lure, and Flaming Candle, and
> Sunrise Service, and Grandest Trick, and Psychomachia, and a whole
> bunch of pre-arranged cards like Blood Bond, and (conditionally)
> Approximation of Loyalty or Crocodile's Tongue or Deed the Heart's
> Desire or Sleeping Mind.
>
> Just to name a few.
Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK?
Beast Meld - need ANI and PRO, costs 2 blood.
Horrific Countenance - based on pro, costs 4 blood.
Daring the Dawn, Day Op, Sunrise Service - your vampire is going to
torpor
Blanket of Night - based on OBT.
Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC
Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway
Flaming Candle - only once per game
Grandest Trick - Kiasyd only & costs 2 blood
Psychomachia - needs dai.
Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of
these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do.
It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder
Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very
helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :(
> Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many
> stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the
Ventrue
> w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten
> Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've
got
> more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my
> intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth
> on a vote called by my predator's vampire.
Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth?
Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good
draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library).
Intercept deck with Bowl of Convergence and Channel 10 can get +4
intercept without any additional cards. Stealth can push one action
with a luck... then hunt for stealth cards for several turns.
> > And she WILL burn blood for +1
> > intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :(
>
> Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in
> any way, sure.
This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they
have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE
either.
> > One Second Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily
> > replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch,
> > Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it
> > would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks.
>
> Cause stealth decks never win these days, huh?
Cause stealth deck are doomed NOW, when Channel 10 and the Bowl are
available.
> Or the !Malk deck can simply pack a Bowl or two of its own to plan to
> contest it, just as many decks pack a Fame or two now to contest
> against Rush decks. It is unique, after all.
>
> -John Flournoy
Oh, it's probably the single hope. Pack a lot of Sibyl's Tongues just
to fetch the Bowl. And I should get it first, or the vampire already
having the Bowl will block it. Really hard times for the stealth
decks...
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
> Deck yourself (Potchtli Twister, Liquidation, whatever) with
Insurance
> Scam and Waste Management Operation in play. Play Powerbase:
Montreal
> every turn and blow it up every turn after using it.
Are you going to really use this combo? Playing without cards isn't too
pleasant.
> The fact that the card can be used any time during one's turn seems
pretty
> strong. Steal someone's Rack and burn it for a pool. No more "well,
> he'll just steal it back."
>
> Matt Morgan
This is probably the best usage of Insurance Scam, except for
sacrificing Info Highways. You cannot rely on opponent's locations,
though, but you can play the "fragile" locations yourself. Who would
steal your Rack if you are ready to sacrifice it for a pool? :)
Ector
John Flournoy
> > expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial
> > Estates.
> This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from
> draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even
> if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage.
> Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just
> to force you to burn it.
> And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :(
First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than
one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so
I'm not sure.
Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good
argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because
it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that
exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks.
Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless
lets you free up card slots for other things.
Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents
you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a
!Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks
don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first
place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table.
> > > Insurance Scam
> > > The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can
> be
> > > stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations
> > > that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that
> use
> > > such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly
> > > unplayable.
> > > Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations.
> >
> > Other uses you missed:
> >
> > Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy,
> > Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc.
> With Liquidation to reduce library size, maybe. But I don't consider
> the combo really powerful.
I never said it was powerful; I was just offering uses for the card
beyond the 'only' use you could find for it.
>
> > Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool.
> And waste a master phase :) Not a good example, IMHO.
Again, not claiming it's powerful, just a way that the card can be
used to some benefit. (I wouldn't use it this way, but someone else
suggested that they would and happily.)
> > Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in
> > an environment that plays locations.
> When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location,
> not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important.
And sometimes denying your opponent a powerful location is a good
thing even if you can't/don't intend to use it. DT'ing an Art Museum
away from a Toreador deck isn't a bad thing, for instance, even if you
don't play any Toreador yourself.
> > > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least
> +2
> > > stealth for any action.
> >
> > Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to
> > block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in
> > untapping them.
> For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions
> unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will
> block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn
> or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards.
Yeah.. alternately, a Loyal Street Gang on a Sport Bike does the same
thing for the same pool (in terms of making you generate 2 stealth;
obviously the combats are different) and I haven't heard people
wailing to the heavens that this was terribly broken before. He's
certainly not going to be substantially scarier than the existing
Auspex-weenie-with-a-Bike/Atonement deck archetype that occasionally
crushes games.
> > > Bowl of Convergence
>
> Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK?
> Blanket of Night - based on OBT.
> Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC
> Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway
> Psychomachia - needs dai.
Are you specifically saying these cards don't help !Malks? It's not
like !Malks can easily use Seduction..
> Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of
> these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do.
> It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder
> Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very
> helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :(
Again, I'm guessing you mean strictly for !Malks, as it's _trivial_ to
make a crypt that can use things like Call the Hungry Dead/Seduction
consistently - like every Giovanni don't block/bleed deck ever built
since CtHD was printed.
> > Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many
> > stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the
> Ventrue
> > w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten
> > Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've
> got
> > more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my
> > intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth
> > on a vote called by my predator's vampire.
> Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth?
> Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good
> draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library).
On an undirected action, like a vote, it requires only THREE CARDS:
any vote, Forgotten Labyrinth, Lost in Crowds. +6 stealth, done. +6
stealth out of an OBF vote deck is not just 'theoretically possible',
it's pretty easy to arrange.
(I do agree that +6 stealth is a lot harder to arrange for a
stealth-bleed deck that's using directed actions, but I wasn't
discussing those with my statement.)
> > > And she WILL burn blood for +1
> > > intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :(
> >
> > Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in
> > any way, sure.
> This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they
> have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE
> either.
As noted above: Things like the Polaris Coach reduce the number of
stealth cards you 'have' to pack, just as the Bowl reduces the number
of intercept cards.
Here's something else you might not have noticed. You specifically
mention Carna with the Bowl as a nightmare situation for you.
Ever see Carna with a Corpse Minion? Carna can actually already get
MORE intercept from a Corpse Minion than she can with the Bowl. Slap a
Sport Bike on her, and she's paid 1 extra pool and 1 extra card to be
BETTER equipped for intercept than what the Bowl provides, and the
Corpse Minion/Sport Bike combo has been available to Tremere for many
years.
Yes, the Bowl is a very nasty card. Yes, in a deck built around it,
it's pretty powerful. But it's not some magical card that does
something that has never been doable before that suddenly trumps a
whole strategy for the first time.
> Ector
-John Flournoy
LSJ
news:e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com...
[Polaris Coach]
> First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than
> one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so
> I'm not sure.
No.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4cf6d38e3881b381
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
Janne Hägglund
> Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action,
> but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary
> stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for
> them now.
Okay.
I will now predict:
<Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat>
"The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian
Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer."
<Takes off robe and hat>
If I'm found to be wrong, you have a right to complain about the death of
the Anti-Malks.
--
hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
Emmit Svenson
...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise
decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry
Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by
block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's
Tongue and Aching Beauty.
Scissors, meet rock.
> Stealth decks are doomed.
...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe.
> All decks should contain at least one combat
> strategy to be effective.
Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and
hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck.
> Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.
> ************************ RIP ****************************
Maybe they're just playing dead.
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>...
> > Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable.
>
> ...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise
> decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry
> Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by
> block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's
> Tongue and Aching Beauty.
>
> Scissors, meet rock.
such brilliant permanent intercept. Thus, they don't fear to block
most decks. Block-punishing cards don't seem to be efficient if the
intercept really can regain its blood (like Tremeres) or torporize the
acting vampire. And they are likely to do so now with increased number
of combat cards.
"Block-fails" are good, but they don't save against Channel 10 + Bowl.
You declare an action with Seduction on my Bowled vamp, then I'll
block you with another vampire and Channel 10. So, a stealth deck will
need BOTH "block-fail" cards and stealth cards, and they are going to
lose extra slots for it.
Now, what deck are you calling "rock"?
> > Stealth decks are doomed.
>
> ...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe.
deck with Auspex can use them. And I really don't see a reason NOT to
include these cards. The only hope is the fact that they are going to
be contested frequently.
> > All decks should contain at least one combat
> > strategy to be effective.
>
> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and
> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck.
block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do
anything.
Ector
> > > Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I
> > > expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial
> > > Estates.
> > This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from
> > draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even
> > if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage.
> > Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just
> > to force you to burn it.
> > And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :(
>
> First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than
> one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so
> I'm not sure.
ONE
counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this
was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card
than I thought, but the price is still too big.
> Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good
> argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because
> it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that
> exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks.
> Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless
> lets you free up card slots for other things.
So, your "slot gain" won't be significant.
> Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents
> you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a
> !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks
> don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first
> place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table.
aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs
to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed
an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use
Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you
anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now.
> > > Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in
> > > an environment that plays locations.
> > When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location,
> > not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important.
>
> And sometimes denying your opponent a powerful location is a good
> thing even if you can't/don't intend to use it. DT'ing an Art Museum
> away from a Toreador deck isn't a bad thing, for instance, even if you
> don't play any Toreador yourself.
> > > > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least
> +2
> > > > stealth for any action.
> > >
> > > Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to
> > > block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in
> > > untapping them.
> > For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions
> > unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will
> > block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn
> > or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards.
>
> Yeah.. alternately, a Loyal Street Gang on a Sport Bike does the same
> thing for the same pool (in terms of making you generate 2 stealth;
> obviously the combats are different) and I haven't heard people
> wailing to the heavens that this was terribly broken before. He's
> certainly not going to be substantially scarier than the existing
> Auspex-weenie-with-a-Bike/Atonement deck archetype that occasionally
> crushes games.
adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it
and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will
you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would
you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is
going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is
unplayable.
> > > > Bowl of Convergence
> >
> > Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK?
> > Blanket of Night - based on OBT.
> > Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC
> > Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway
> > Psychomachia - needs dai.
>
> Are you specifically saying these cards don't help !Malks? It's not
> like !Malks can easily use Seduction..
possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are
weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now.
> > Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of
> > these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do.
> > It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder
> > Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very
> > helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :(
>
> Again, I'm guessing you mean strictly for !Malks, as it's _trivial_ to
> make a crypt that can use things like Call the Hungry Dead/Seduction
> consistently - like every Giovanni don't block/bleed deck ever built
> since CtHD was printed.
aren't. The best available stealthing strategy now is Elder
Impersonation + Seduction + some stealth, which is really not
available to !Malks. Malks of 1-2 groups are still alive.
> > Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth?
> > Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good
> > draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library).
>
> On an undirected action, like a vote, it requires only THREE CARDS:
> any vote, Forgotten Labyrinth, Lost in Crowds. +6 stealth, done. +6
> stealth out of an OBF vote deck is not just 'theoretically possible',
> it's pretty easy to arrange.
>
> (I do agree that +6 stealth is a lot harder to arrange for a
> stealth-bleed deck that's using directed actions, but I wasn't
> discussing those with my statement.)
Surely, Forgotten Labyrinth is good. But Carna with the Bowl and
Channel 10 can get +5 intercept WITHOUT any additional cards. And
Anneke with the Bowl, Channel 10 and Second Tradition will block your
+6 stealth.
Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action,
but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary
stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for
them now.
> > This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they
> > have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE
> > either.
>
> As noted above: Things like the Polaris Coach reduce the number of
> stealth cards you 'have' to pack, just as the Bowl reduces the number
> of intercept cards.
As I mentioned above, you'll have to compensate for the blood loss.
And Malkavian without blood can be killed even by Embrace.
> Here's something else you might not have noticed. You specifically
> mention Carna with the Bowl as a nightmare situation for you.
>
> Ever see Carna with a Corpse Minion? Carna can actually already get
> MORE intercept from a Corpse Minion than she can with the Bowl. Slap a
> Sport Bike on her, and she's paid 1 extra pool and 1 extra card to be
> BETTER equipped for intercept than what the Bowl provides, and the
> Corpse Minion/Sport Bike combo has been available to Tremere for many
> years.
Corpse Minion can be killed, it costs 1 pool, and it cannot be fetched
with Magic of the Smith, so it can easily be blocked.
> Yes, the Bowl is a very nasty card. Yes, in a deck built around it,
> it's pretty powerful. But it's not some magical card that does
> something that has never been doable before that suddenly trumps a
> whole strategy for the first time.
It really kills !Malkavian stealth-bleed. Dom/Obf decks may still
survive with added Seductions, but Dementation provides only bleed.
Ector
J
> decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat
> strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.
>
> ************************ RIP ****************************
A bit melodramatic don't you think?
Stealth decks are NOT doomed.
Malkavian Antitribu are NOT dead.
Intercept decks are not Impenetrable.
The world is not flat, and the moon is not made of cheese!
--> J
"Fry crack corn, and I don't care,
Leela crack corn, I still don't care,
Bender crack corn and he is great;
Take that you stupid corn!"
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me
Matthew T. Morgan
> Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed.
Are you trying to make this group go crazy? There's never been any limit
to the number of Raven Spies a minion can have. It's always been true
that permanent intercept will overcome stealth in the long run. Stealth
decks get by with speed, block denial, running their prey out of Wake (not
intercept) and the fact that intercept is a hard strategy to win with so
it's not always played.
You seem to have come around on the ideas that !Malks have no combat
defense and can't vote well. Wait a while and watch. The Bowl will go in
many bad decks and a few good ones. Stealth bleed will still reign
supreme.
And put Elder Impersonation in your deck already!
Matt Morgan
John Flournoy
> The card text states: "While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn
> ONE
> counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this
> was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card
> than I thought, but the price is still too big.
LSJ has confirmed that it's use as many times as you can pay counters
for, so that helps. Yeah, if it was just once, it'd be weaker.
> > Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good
> > argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because
> > it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that
> > exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks.
> > Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless
> > lets you free up card slots for other things.
> Unfortunately, you will have to compensate the blood drain somehow.
> So, your "slot gain" won't be significant.
How about putting one or two Festivo's in? One thought I had was how
useful Capitalist would be. A hunting ground pays for a coach. Paying
for a singular coach should be relatively easy to offset.
If I'm going to pack _multiple_ coaches in a !Malk deck, I'm planning
to USE the vamps with them, preferably every turn, to swarm-bleed out
my prey and so on, more efficiently than I might without them, and for
that sort of deck, I'm trying to win as fast as I can.
> > Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents
> > you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a
> > !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks
> > don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first
> > place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table.
> AFAIK, each S&B deck has at least 4 Blood Dolls. It has to be
> aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs
> to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed
> an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use
> Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you
> anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now.
Let me direct your attention to the !Malk section of The Lasombra's
tournament-winning deck archive, where if you look at one of the decks
labelled 'Fast Eddie/y' or Kamel's "Kindred Spirit", which demonstrate
a fairly common !Malk pure-stealth-bleed deck type, you'll see that
these decks run with only 2 Blood Dolls and no other means of moving
blood on or off of vampires or gaining blood onto their vamps. And
they win. Other variations on this deck have made numerous final
tables in the last couple of years. These sorts of decks currently
throw 30-40 stealth cards to back up the 12-15 Kindred Spirits they
bleed with, and that IS generally enough to gain enough pool to
survive. (These decks obviously are pretty extremely focused.)
-------
(On to discussing Charlton):
> Look, you are far more experienced than me, so I wonder, why do you
> adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it
> and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will
> you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would
> you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is
> going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is
> unplayable.
My argument probably shouldn't have used a weak, specific example, so
I'll use a stronger generic one. Charlton is good, yes. Charlton is
not, however, The Most Shut-Down Thing Ever, as he'll be hard-pressed
to block more than one action a turn, generally won't ever hurt the
minion he blocks, and most importantly, is FAR from the only 'cheap
blocker that it's hard to hurt' that has ever been seen on a table.
Yes, he's good. Yes, he's a really good blocker. No, the existence of
Charlton doesn't suddenly make stealth-bleeding impossible.
But then, you are looking at him with an eye on !Malks specifically,
and yeah, for a !Malk point of view he's definitely pretty
intimidating.
> > > > > Bowl of Convergence
>
> !Malks can regularly use only Elder Impersonation and the Signet (and,
> possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are
> weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now.
Feel free. It'll definitely be interesting to see if people (or the
meta-game) proves you wrong.
> As I posted, "don't block" decks are still possible, but stealth decks
> aren't. The best available stealthing strategy now is Elder
> Impersonation + Seduction + some stealth, which is really not
> available to !Malks. Malks of 1-2 groups are still alive.
Again, I'll be interested to see if people can prove you wrong with
!Malk stealth decks.
> Surely, Forgotten Labyrinth is good. But Carna with the Bowl and
> Channel 10 can get +5 intercept WITHOUT any additional cards. And
> Anneke with the Bowl, Channel 10 and Second Tradition will block your
> +6 stealth.
>
> Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action,
> but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary
> stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for
> them now.
I disagree; perhaps I'll have to play !Malks some once my playgroup
gets 10th Box Sets to see how it works in practice.
> Ector
-John Flournoy
Ector
> I will now predict:
>
> <Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat>
>
> "The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian
> Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer."
>
> <Takes off robe and hat>
I'd be happy if this would really happen. I will gladly devote the
whole newsletter to the new deck, I will praise its creator etc. etc.
It's like the second coming of Messiah :) Many of us would be happy if
this would happen, but who really believes in this? :)
> If I'm found to be wrong, you have a right to complain about the death of
> the Anti-Malks.
Some things are just obvious. If you'd fall from the Eiffel's tower,
would you hope to learn flying?
Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed.
Ector
Derek Ray
Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>...
>> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and
>> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck.
>
>There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can
>block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do
>anything.
Oh, quit crying, for godsake.
Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be
used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!)
takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was?
[08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool
[08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment.
[08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1
bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding.
Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the
Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of
Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10
and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth
cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and
you're set against the rest of his vamps.
All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can
never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really
understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd
playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you,
but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of
the rest of the world, and act accordingly.
-- Derek
a host is a host from coast to coast
and no one will talk to a host that's close
unless the host that isn't close
is busy, hung, or dead
Peter D Bakija
> They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with
> such brilliant permanent intercept.
No, they don't. You *need* just as much transient intercept, 'cause a
permanent location and a unique equipment aren't reliable.
How many of Channel X are going to be in your deck? Unless there are, like,
5, whether or not you get one into play is a total crap shoot. The same with
the magic bowl. And if you have 5 of each, that is great, but how is that
any better than, like, having 10 Enahnced Senses instead? Really?
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Peter D Bakija
>>Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth
decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat
strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.>>
Yeah, see, again, you are making kind of crazy, hyperbolic statements based
on a strange meta game, or whatever.
Yeah, the 10 new cards include a lot of permanent intercept. Of those two:
-The bowl requires you to have aus or AUS. If you have AUS, you already
have, potentially, all the intercept in the world. Yeah, +1 permanent
intercept is good and all, or heck, even +2 permanent by spending a blood,
but so what? They could just as easily have a Sports Bike. Or a Sports Bike
and Mr. Winthrop. Or 4 Raven Spies. All of which are already possible. Along
with superior Enhanced Senses.
-Channel 10 is permanent +2 intercept. But not on the first action. +2
intercept is good, but not if the first action is "I bleed you for 6 at +3
stealth..."
Both of these cards are handy, sure. But they are hardly going to blasn a
nail in the coffin of S+B, which is *still* going to be one of the most
effective strategies.
Keep in mind that when VTES was printed (as opposed to Jyhad), the set
included 3 anti S+B magic bullets--Archon Investigation, Protected
Resources, and Elder Intervention (ooh, yeah, and that vote that burns
vampires who have permanent 3 bleed or more! That one too! So 4 magic
bullets). And yet S+B was still one of the most effective strategies. And
still is.
Bowl and Channel X are good permanent intercept objects. But there are
*already* good permanent intercept options, and these aren't, like, making
the Malkavians useless. You can *already* play a deck where a minion with 5
Raven Spies untaps constantly, blocks you, and then plays Trap, Carrion
Crows, and Drawing out the Beast. Which will *kill* any S+B deck dead. And
that is without the new cards. The new cards give some new options--guys
with Auspex have more access to intercept. Woo. They already have the option
of all the intercept in the world already. Channel X is really good for an
intercept location (of which there are already plenty--heck, if you are,
like, the Assamites, you can have, what, 5 individual intercept locations in
play at a given time already?), but if your predator is like "Well, they are
relying on Channel X. I'll make sure my best action is the first one or
third every time. They'll waste 2 pool! Score!", it is hardly going to have
much impact at all.
The Malkavian Antitribu are far from dead. Really.
Emmit Svenson
> emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote
> > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote
> >
> > ...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise
> > decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry
> > Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by
> > block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's
> > Tongue and Aching Beauty.
> >
> such brilliant permanent intercept. Thus, they don't fear to block
> most decks.
AUS decks will include the Bowl in place of a Sport Bike or Mr.
Winthrop, and maybe Channel 10 instead of another media outlet. These
decks will become more diverse, but they won't suddenly have tons more
room.
If you disagree, try picking a winning intercept deck from the
archive, and show how swapping in the Bowl or Channel 10 will allow
you to add many more bleed or combat cards.
> Block-punishing cards don't seem to be efficient if the
> intercept really can regain its blood (like Tremeres) or torporize the
> acting vampire.
...which they can't, because block-punishing decks use Change of
Target, Red Herring and the like to cancel combat and take another
action, running decks out of blood and wakes. Try it with the Colonel
& company sometime and see for yourself.
> "Block-fails" are good, but they don't save against Channel 10 + Bowl.
> You declare an action with Seduction on my Bowled vamp, then I'll
> block you with another vampire and Channel 10.
The moral of the story seems to be if you're going to play Kine
Dominance or bleed for six, make that your first action of your turn.
So, a stealth deck will
> need BOTH "block-fail" cards and stealth cards, and they are going to
> lose extra slots for it.
> Now, what deck are you calling "rock"?
Which deck is running out of Wakes and pool? That's the one in
trouble.
> > > Stealth decks are doomed.
> >
> > ...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe.
> If you call any deck with Channel 10 and the Bowl a "wall deck". Any
> deck with Auspex can use them. And I really don't see a reason NOT to
> include these cards. The only hope is the fact that they are going to
> be contested frequently.
The Bowl and Channel 10 together just aren't enough. You need plenty
of wakes to be a decent wall, and not having half your permanent
intercept available on your predator and prey's first actions is a
serious concern.
Honestly, if stealth-bleed survived the arrival of Maris Streck, it
will survive these new cards just fine.
> There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can
> block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do
> anything.
The card flow advantage for a stealth-bleed deck that includes no
combat cards beyond Swallowed by the Night and Deny is enormous.
I understand it's traditional for someone to shout "The sky is
falling!" every time a new set comes out, but I'm honestly surprised
these new cards provoked that reaction.
James Coupe
Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter
discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
Ector
> In message <1101971771.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Ec...@mail.ru writes:
> >Never thought about Derange in a voting decks...
>
> Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter
> discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed.
Derange was mentioned many times, but it was mostly used with
Malkavian Dementia, not to deny votes.
Ector
Ector
> On 3 Dec 2004, Ector wrote:
>
> > Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed.
>
> Are you trying to make this group go crazy? There's never been any limit
> to the number of Raven Spies a minion can have. It's always been true
> that permanent intercept will overcome stealth in the long run.
- most of the times you'll find good vampires with AUS for most clans
and disciplines set. You need two Raven Spies to get the Bowl's +2
intercept effect, and you generally cannot fetch the Spies. Turn 2
Carna, turn 3 Magic of the Smith is pretty realistic, so "the long
run" isn't needed anymore. No Thaumaturgy? Turn 3 Anneke, turn 4 Vast
Wealth and fetch equipment.
> Stealth
> decks get by with speed, block denial, running their prey out of Wake (not
> intercept) and the fact that intercept is a hard strategy to win with so
> it's not always played.
Intercept is NOT a hard strategy to win anymore, as it can now dump
some intercept cards for combat and bleed cards.
> You seem to have come around on the ideas that !Malks have no combat
> defense and can't vote well. Wait a while and watch. The Bowl will go in
> many bad decks and a few good ones. Stealth bleed will still reign
> supreme.
DOM/OBF S&B, maybe, as it has Seductions, but not DEM/OBF.
> And put Elder Impersonation in your deck already!
I already have them, thanks :)
Ector
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>...
> > carn...@gmail.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > The card text states: "While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn
> > ONE
> > counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this
> > was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card
> > than I thought, but the price is still too big.
>
> LSJ has confirmed that it's use as many times as you can pay counters
> for, so that helps. Yeah, if it was just once, it'd be weaker.
and break through the Bowl.
> > > Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good
> > > argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because
> > > it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that
> > > exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks.
> > > Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless
> > > lets you free up card slots for other things.
>
> > Unfortunately, you will have to compensate the blood drain somehow.
> > So, your "slot gain" won't be significant.
>
> How about putting one or two Festivo's in? One thought I had was how
> useful Capitalist would be. A hunting ground pays for a coach. Paying
> for a singular coach should be relatively easy to offset.
complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :) I
guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would
never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the
blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious
target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven.
I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks.
> If I'm going to pack _multiple_ coaches in a !Malk deck, I'm planning
> to USE the vamps with them, preferably every turn, to swarm-bleed out
> my prey and so on, more efficiently than I might without them, and for
> that sort of deck, I'm trying to win as fast as I can.
You'll have to assemble two counters on the Coach to compensate for
the Bowl... and this obviously counters your attempt to "win as fast
as you can".
> > > Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents
> > > you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a
> > > !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks
> > > don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first
> > > place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table.
> > AFAIK, each S&B deck has at least 4 Blood Dolls. It has to be
> > aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs
> > to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed
> > an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use
> > Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you
> > anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now.
>
> Let me direct your attention to the !Malk section of The Lasombra's
> tournament-winning deck archive, where if you look at one of the decks
> labelled 'Fast Eddie/y' or Kamel's "Kindred Spirit", which demonstrate
> a fairly common !Malk pure-stealth-bleed deck type, you'll see that
> these decks run with only 2 Blood Dolls and no other means of moving
> blood on or off of vampires or gaining blood onto their vamps. And
> they win. Other variations on this deck have made numerous final
> tables in the last couple of years. These sorts of decks currently
> throw 30-40 stealth cards to back up the 12-15 Kindred Spirits they
> bleed with, and that IS generally enough to gain enough pool to
> survive. (These decks obviously are pretty extremely focused.)
it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such
aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them.
> -------
>
> (On to discussing Charlton):
>
> > Look, you are far more experienced than me, so I wonder, why do you
> > adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it
> > and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will
> > you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would
> > you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is
> > going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is
> > unplayable.
>
> My argument probably shouldn't have used a weak, specific example, so
> I'll use a stronger generic one. Charlton is good, yes. Charlton is
> not, however, The Most Shut-Down Thing Ever, as he'll be hard-pressed
> to block more than one action a turn, generally won't ever hurt the
> minion he blocks, and most importantly, is FAR from the only 'cheap
> blocker that it's hard to hurt' that has ever been seen on a table.
> Yes, he's good. Yes, he's a really good blocker. No, the existence of
> Charlton doesn't suddenly make stealth-bleeding impossible.
>
> But then, you are looking at him with an eye on !Malks specifically,
> and yeah, for a !Malk point of view he's definitely pretty
> intimidating.
intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge,
then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur,
+2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and
Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you
had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes.
But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they
cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now.
> > > > > > Bowl of Convergence
> >
> > !Malks can regularly use only Elder Impersonation and the Signet (and,
> > possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are
> > weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now.
>
> Feel free. It'll definitely be interesting to see if people (or the
> meta-game) proves you wrong.
I'd be glad to.
> > Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action,
> > but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary
> > stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for
> > them now.
>
> I disagree; perhaps I'll have to play !Malks some once my playgroup
> gets 10th Box Sets to see how it works in practice.
Perhaps I will post some decks to test against !Malks :)
Ector
Ector
> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>,
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>
> >emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and
> >> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck.
> >
> >There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can
> >block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do
> >anything.
>
> Oh, quit crying, for godsake.
>
> Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be
> used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!)
> takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was?
>
> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool
> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment.
> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1
> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding.
action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action
per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :)
Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked
and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are
going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette,
Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once
per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce...
bounce... BOUNCE???
> Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the
> Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of
> Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10
> and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth
> cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and
> you're set against the rest of his vamps.
Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see
Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes
Artemis. Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE
ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well
as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1
intercept will also be quite popular... Even Charlton could block
Artemis in your example.
And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy
bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments.
> All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can
> never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really
> understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd
> playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you,
> but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of
> the rest of the world, and act accordingly.
yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only
decks to the various diversified metagame.
Ector
James Coupe
<Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
>James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<FLqScBnkkQsBFw
>f...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
>> In message <1101971771.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> Ec...@mail.ru writes:
>> >Never thought about Derange in a voting decks...
>>
>> Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter
>> discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed.
>
>Derange was mentioned many times, but it was mostly used with
>Malkavian Dementia, not to deny votes.
Uh. You even posted this!
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d6c82c73.0411100108.6e6a06c%40post
ing.google.com>
Which includes (in response to me):
> There are sufficient Princes/other titles lurking around, and a few
> vampires with Obf/Pre (Kite, Quentin, Evan) that a (!)Malkavian deck can
> have a good run at a stealth/vote deck, with a little bleed to fall back
> on. Stealth can always be thrown on vanilla bleed actions, if you have
> trouble. Combine with Derange to take out the opposing titles (this is
> why the clan cross-over works well) if you're feeling vindictive.
Again, most good vamps with Presence are Camarilla Malks.
Unfortunately, !Malks have much less options.
***
It's disheartening to know that the time the rest of us put in
responding to your points is actually ignored. You think the !Malks are
dead, and nothing we can say will convince you otherwise - because you
don't read it, even when you respond to it and quote it in the line
above your text. :/
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with
> > such brilliant permanent intercept.
>
> No, they don't. You *need* just as much transient intercept, 'cause a
> permanent location and a unique equipment aren't reliable.
>
> How many of Channel X are going to be in your deck? Unless there are, like,
> 5, whether or not you get one into play is a total crap shoot. The same with
> the magic bowl. And if you have 5 of each, that is great, but how is that
> any better than, like, having 10 Enahnced Senses instead? Really?
Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor.
Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this...
Ector
The Cadaverous Verger
> Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE
> ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well
> as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1
> intercept will also be quite popular...
Bollocks. It's not as if everyone is suddenly going to start playing
intercept wall decks just to piss off stealthbleeders. Maybe in your
metagame, but these two cards definitely won't cause a sudden change in
playstyles universally.
I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location
that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same
Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to
burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do
something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you
have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept
an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non?
--CV
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> >>Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth
> decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat
> strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.>>
>
> Yeah, see, again, you are making kind of crazy, hyperbolic statements based
> on a strange meta game, or whatever.
>
> Yeah, the 10 new cards include a lot of permanent intercept. Of those two:
>
> -The bowl requires you to have aus or AUS. If you have AUS, you already
> have, potentially, all the intercept in the world. Yeah, +1 permanent
> intercept is good and all, or heck, even +2 permanent by spending a blood,
> but so what? They could just as easily have a Sports Bike. Or a Sports Bike
> and Mr. Winthrop. Or 4 Raven Spies. All of which are already possible. Along
> with superior Enhanced Senses.
deck below :)
> -Channel 10 is permanent +2 intercept. But not on the first action. +2
> intercept is good, but not if the first action is "I bleed you for 6 at +3
> stealth..."
>
> Both of these cards are handy, sure. But they are hardly going to blasn a
> nail in the coffin of S+B, which is *still* going to be one of the most
> effective strategies.
CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds
can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding
with several minions, but for 3 max each.
> Keep in mind that when VTES was printed (as opposed to Jyhad), the set
> included 3 anti S+B magic bullets--Archon Investigation, Protected
> Resources, and Elder Intervention (ooh, yeah, and that vote that burns
> vampires who have permanent 3 bleed or more! That one too! So 4 magic
> bullets). And yet S+B was still one of the most effective strategies. And
> still is.
each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl.
> Bowl and Channel X are good permanent intercept objects. But there are
> *already* good permanent intercept options, and these aren't, like, making
> the Malkavians useless. You can *already* play a deck where a minion with 5
> Raven Spies untaps constantly, blocks you, and then plays Trap, Carrion
> Crows, and Drawing out the Beast. Which will *kill* any S+B deck dead. And
> that is without the new cards. The new cards give some new options--guys
> with Auspex have more access to intercept. Woo. They already have the option
> of all the intercept in the world already. Channel X is really good for an
> intercept location (of which there are already plenty--heck, if you are,
> like, the Assamites, you can have, what, 5 individual intercept locations in
> play at a given time already?), but if your predator is like "Well, they are
> relying on Channel X. I'll make sure my best action is the first one or
> third every time. They'll waste 2 pool! Score!", it is hardly going to have
> much impact at all.
thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B
deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven
Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my
sample deck:
Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres
Author : Ilya Ginsburg
Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59
------------------------------------------------------------
4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3
3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3
3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3
2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [18]
8x Govern the Unaligned
2x Graverobbing
6x Magic of the Smith
2x Pulse of the Canaille
Combat [26]
8x Blur
6x Pursuit
12x Theft of Vitae
Equipment [6]
1x Ivory Bow
1x Flamethrower
2x Sniper Rifle
2x Bowl of Convergence
Master [17]
2x Celerity
1x Giant's Blood
2x Information Highway
5x Minion Tap
3x Sudden Reversal
2x Zillah's Valley
2x Channel 10
Reaction [21]
5x Deflection
2x Fast Reaction
8x Second Tradition: Domain
6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Ally [2]
2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
------------------------------------------------------------
It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the
current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or
Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs as
usual. Use extra Magic to get other equipment. I probably should
include Sport Bike, but I just wanted to demonstrate the difference...
though one Bike would be nice here.
Get your Ivory Bow/Flamethrower and torporize vampires, then Graverob
them whenever possible. Vampires with a lot of attached cards (e.g.
Enchanted Marionette, Pulse of the Canaille etc.) are the best targets
:)
Eventualy you will get your Charlton and Channel 10. I guess
Neighbourhood Watch Commander would also be good here.
Finally, when you find your Pulse, just put it on the vamp with the
Bow/Flamethower and play bruise & bleed. Repeat with the second Pulse,
if needed :)
Obviously, this deck isn't a great interceptor, but it can intercept
most actions. Some cards may be far from optimal, but the main idea
is:
Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And
Therefore They Are Much Stronger.
If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
Ector.
The Lasombra
>Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3
>each.
No, YOUR idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 each.
Bleeding at stealth is nowhere near as limited as you make it out to
be.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
The Lasombra
>Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards"
>thread. But you cannot fetch them,
Yes, you can.
Muricia's Call
http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=1141
The Summoning
http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=999
There are tools available to decrease the falsity of your statements.
I would recommend you investigate them, as every argument you make
that contains falsehoods is easily (and rightly) discarded.
Monger
http://monger.vekn.org/
Vekn.NU
http://www.vekn.nu/search.php?page=search
Elder Library Deck Builder
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/eldb3/
Anarch Revolt Deck Builder
http://www.nongnu.org/anarchdb/
Vamp
http://home.insightbb.com/~ebina1/vtes/
V:TES Deck Maker
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/VTESDeckMaker/
Official Cardlists
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html
Official Rulings, Clarifications, and Errata
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html
The Lasombra
>If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
There exists multiple fixes for your complaint.
I will give you the easiest one, and let you start over.
Direct Intervetion.
-Target the Magic of the Smith or the Bowl of Convergence.
Second fix:
Disguised Weapon - Flamethrower/Ivory Bow/Blow Torch/Rowan Ring
plus a second disposible weenie, like Yorik to follow up with the
diablerie.
You have not been sufficiently creative if you feel your game is
destroyed by permanent intercept, especially permanent intercept
without damage prevention disciplines.
Sensory Deprivation destroys your stealth bleed game much more than
permanent intercept ever will.
Sten During
Exchange one for Mr. Wintrop. Why two uniques?
Where is Sire's Index Finger?
>
> Master [17]
> 2x Celerity
> 1x Giant's Blood
> 2x Information Highway
> 5x Minion Tap
> 3x Sudden Reversal
> 2x Zillah's Valley
> 2x Channel 10
Again replace one. KRCG, for example?
>
> Reaction [21]
> 5x Deflection
> 2x Fast Reaction
> 8x Second Tradition: Domain
> 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
>
> Ally [2]
> 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
Start praying you never see Kiss of Ra behind you.
Start praying your bleeding prey uses dementation as the
combination obf/dom, Stanislava bleed and, to some extent,
nec/dom kills your deck.
With four vamps you really, really don't want to face 'block
fails' in combination with Faceless Night.
What happens if you run into the more traditional weenie
bleed I think we don't even need to cover here as you're
going to take ten points of pool-damage on average before
you see your first vamp influenced.
A pre/obf deck bleeding you (and most probably packing the
occasional Form of Corruption/Temptation) is even worse until
it eventually gets ousted by its own predator. Majesty isn't
exactly your best friend here, or S:CE in any form as you'll
soon find your hand filled with useless Blur.
All that said, yes, I'll most probably replace one copy of
Sport Bike with one Bowl in a Tor gun deck - contestation
aside Bowl is a better card than Sport Bike.
I'd probably replace Rumor Mill with Channel Ten, but the main
point here is "replace", because decks using permanent intercepts
have that many slots available and no more, unless, of course,
I head in the direction of Anson "I promise this is no Anarch
Revolt deck" Parthenon decks to be able to slot in all the
"broken" masters to be able to retrieve the "broken" allies/
retainers/equipment looping with Freak Drive and Toreador Grand
Ball, which says less about the two cards discussed here and more
about fortitude combined with Tor Grand Ball.
Sten During
Peter D Bakija
> Channel 10 is fair, but the Bowl isn't. It can easily be fetched with
> Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor.
> Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this..
If you are worried about Bowl of Convergence, use your own. It is *unique*.
The Malkavians can even use Sibyl's Tounge to go get it quickly. Or you can
use Equipment hosers (Anarch Troublemaker?) that are incredibly useful in a
general sense, especially these days (what with all the Assault Rifles and
all). Or just use more stealth. Or block denial (Elder Intervention). Or
Coma them when they block you.
I'm sooooo not seeing where the problem is. It is only functionally better
than a Sport Bike on someone with AUS. And they already have the ability to
block you anyway with Enhanced Senses and some back up transient intercept.
Peter D Bakija
> If the Bowl couldn't be fetched, you'd be right, but... See my sample
> deck below :)
Fetch your own. You have Sybil's Tounge.
> If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B
> CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds
> can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding
> with several minions, but for 3 max each.
That is the whole idea of your S+B deck, apparently. S+B isn't going
anywhere at all. Neither is any other strategy that uses heavy stealth. The
ability to reliably block any action *already exists*. And it hasn't
hampered S+B even remotely, in a strategic sense.
> Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3
> each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl.
Hardly.
> Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards"
> thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B
> deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven
> Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my
> sample deck:
You don't need to fetch Raven Spies. You just play lots of them 'cause, see,
they aren't unique (like the bowl), so having 15 in a deck is actually
useful *and* it lets you build a strategy around having them. Heck, 3 or 3
weenie minions, someone with ANI, and Shepards Innocence, and you can have 4
Raven Spies on a single minion in a single turn.
> Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres
> Author : Ilya Ginsburg
> Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons
(deck snipped)
Ok. You have built an intercept wall deck that can stop actions a lot. Woo.
I could show you thirty of those in 4 minutes that will be just as effective
at stopping actions that don't use any of the new cards. But, see, the thing
is is that decks like that don't win. It has limited forward momentum (due
to lack of evasion of any sort--it's bleeds will be blocked easily). Limited
combat defense (it will be killed by decks that *want* to be blocked). And
even in the best of situations, it is going to get 2 VPs while its forward
inclined prey gets 3. Hardly something to worry about in a strategic sense.
Yeah, if a Malk S+B deck sitn next to it, it might be hosed. But then the
same thing happens if the Malk deck sits next to someone with 15
Deflections.
> Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And
> Therefore They Are Much Stronger.
No they don't. Unique forms of Permanent Intercept are unreliable. Even
*with* Magic of the Smith.
> If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
Just keep playing the game, and you'll prove yourself wrong eventually.
Derek Ray
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n2s0r0t6knrtdi0rf...@4ax.com>...
>> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>,
>> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>>
>> >emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>...
>> >> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and
>> >> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck.
>> >
>> >There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can
>> >block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do
>> >anything.
>>
>> Oh, quit crying, for godsake.
>>
>> Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be
>> used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!)
>> takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was?
I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better?
>> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool
>> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment.
>> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1
>> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding.
>
>How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first
>action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action
>per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :)
Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something?
>Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked
>and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are
Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted
Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually
oust your prey.
>going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette,
>Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once
>per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce...
>bounce... BOUNCE???
No, you can bleed more than once per turn. You just don't know how, and
you aren't willing to listen to the rest of us telling you.
Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically
Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all
good to go.
>> Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the
>> Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of
>> Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10
>> and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth
>> cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and
>> you're set against the rest of his vamps.
>
>Really, how convenient... Kindred Spirits, Eyes, FN, Elder
>Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see
>Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes
You know, dude, you really have a bad case of "my deck can do everything
and it will beat yours" disease. Above, I indicated "add a few more
stealth cards". I would assume you would add Lost In Crowds to this,
which allows you to bypass the 2nd tradition player, who will REMAIN
TAPPED. But at this point, you've got so much intercept in the deck
that it isn't capable of going forward, and won't win, so it's kind of
irrelevant -- I am not worried about facing this deck.
Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and
all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not
their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant.
>Artemis. Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE
>ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well
>as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1
>intercept will also be quite popular... Even Charlton could block
>Artemis in your example.
Not after the Lost in Crowds ("Add a few more stealth cards"). And
honestly, you are assuming a perfect draw on the part of the intercept
deck to have Channel 10, the Bowl, and everything else on the table by
turn 4. Again, have you ever played a stealth bleed deck? They move
FAST. If someone doesn't draw the Bowl or Channel 10 in the first 15
cards, they aren't likely to get a chance to.
>And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy
>bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments.
Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE
profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI.
I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block"
bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead
to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get
there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an
8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast.
Intercept decks HATE "Your Block Fails". Elder Impersonation and
Faceless Night are the way to fly; and did we overlook Blackmail, by any
chance, to deal with people who want to leave the Bowl-bearer untapped?
>> All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can
>> never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really
>> understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd
>> playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you,
>> but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of
>> the rest of the world, and act accordingly.
>
>Well, I won't explain what YOUR post reveals... Please think about it
>yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only
>decks to the various diversified metagame.
Yeah, I've thought about it, and what I see is you being a crying little
baby because you don't want to adapt your decks to deal with a changing
metagame. Suck it up, boy, figure it out, move on.
Derek Ray
>Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres
>Author : Ilya Ginsburg
>Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons
>
>Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3
>3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3
>3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3
>2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2
This crypt is way too big. Fast decks will cream you.
>Library [90 cards]
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Action [18]
> 8x Govern the Unaligned
> 2x Graverobbing
> 6x Magic of the Smith
> 2x Pulse of the Canaille
Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards.
You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer.
I removed the equipment, but if you ever paid 4 pool for a Flamethrower,
I would expect that to seal your doom instantly. Your guys are too
expensive and you have little way to get it back.
>Master [17]
> 2x Celerity
> 1x Giant's Blood
> 2x Information Highway
> 5x Minion Tap
Insufficient pool gain, because you have insufficient defense. You will
need 8x of these.
> 3x Sudden Reversal
> 2x Zillah's Valley
> 2x Channel 10
Only 38% chance of getting an influence accelerator in your first 10
cards. Talk about needing to get lucky... you're going to need a
miracle at this point.
>Reaction [21]
> 5x Deflection
Better hope you aren't relying on these; you don't have anywhere near
enough to bounce more than the occasional bleed, especially since you
won't cycle any of those combat cards.
> 2x Fast Reaction
You won't ever have more than two vampires, and you're going to tap both
of them just to steal some blood? Please, be my prey.
> 8x Second Tradition: Domain
> 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
You'll be stuck having to influence Zagreb or Yitzak, just to save your
ass against a fast deck -- leaving you with only one person to play 2nd
Tradition. Who will get the Bowl?
>Ally [2]
> 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck.
>It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the
>current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or
>Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs as
You'll get smeared by Elder Impersonation, Seduction, etc. I would
expect any decent stealth/bleed deck to oust this weak-ass thing JUST as
it was influencing its second vampire.
Your maximum intercept total on a single vampire is +6. You have only 8
cards of transient intercept, meaning that if you don't get the Bowl or
Channel 10 (a 50% chance of doing so early, remember), you are relying
totally on your 2nd Traditions. Channel 10 can't be used on the first
action, so your maximum intercept total on THAT action is +4, something
I routinely see stealth decks overcome with just transient stealth.
You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a secondary
minion. Faceless Night and Lost in Crowds beat that. Let's go back to
our above example, shall we?
You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out,
somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an
Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys.
Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10.
You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl.
Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood?
You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept.
Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else.
You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition.
Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please.
You: Damn, my deck sucks.
Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool.
You think you'll Deflect? You might do it once, but not with only 5 in
your deck; you'll have a hand full of combat cards before long. In
fact, in the above example I would go nuts bleeding you with all the
rest of my minions, because you've just wasted two untap cards to no
effect; the odds are HUGE that you don't have a third. I have great
chances of ousting you this turn, in fact, if I drew into more bleed
mods.
You know the best part? All those cards I played are found in MULTIPLES
in good stealth/bleed decks. Like, 8-of-each multiples. I can do that
every turn, easily. Your deck, on the other hand, will be ousted.
>Obviously, this deck isn't a great interceptor, but it can intercept
>most actions. Some cards may be far from optimal, but the main idea
No, it cannot intercept most actions. It in fact can get itself ousted
rapidly, making room for a REAL deck at the table; its !Malk
stealth/bleed predator, for example.
Perhaps it can get lucky and play against a "10-cap calls one vote a
turn" deck as its predator, so it has time to get set up. But then it
still can't oust anyone.
>Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And
>Therefore They Are Much Stronger.
>
>If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
Just did. Happy now?
Daneel
> Let's go back to our above example, shall we?
>
> You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out,
> somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an
> Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys.
That's like 20+ pool too. So your predator, who has Timothy Crowley and
two other Ventrue out will simply call Parity Shift and Conservative
Agitation before you even get a chance to bleed your prey, ousting you
right before the snipped scenario would occur. They do everything at +1
stealth (+2 with the Creepshow that was played to go to Parity Shift
range) and screw your !Malks with impunity.
There, happy? Examples are all plentiful. One less relevant than the other.
Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block"
cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry
Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear
for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need
a DI for the same thing the very next turn).
--
Bye,
Daneel
Derek Ray
Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about:
>On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:18:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Let's go back to our above example, shall we?
>>
>> You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out,
>> somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an
>> Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys.
>
>That's like 20+ pool too. So your predator, who has Timothy Crowley and
Except that my deck has room for Blood Dolls, and Kindred Spirits gains
me a pool every time. I've been using it while he's been fetching Lucas
and Zagreb; we're going to assume he has pulled at least one Minion Tap
to cover my own bleeds.
We can remove 2 of the dem/obf guys, and he can not have influenced
Zagreb yet, but then I just rape his deck silly and he can't do anything
about it. I was trying to be FAIR to him.
>There, happy? Examples are all plentiful. One less relevant than the other.
Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've
all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before.
>Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block"
Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI
is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you
won't have enough of them in your deck.
Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But
don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the
Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI
the opposing trump combat.
>cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry
>Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear
>for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need
>a DI for the same thing the very next turn).
By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite
germane to the situation at hand.
David Cherryholmes
> I wonder, why nobody plays Robert Carter, then? Why Gangrels are
> complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :)
He's popular as hell, as far as I can ascertain. And I don't recall
hearing "Gangrel players" (of which I would be one, I suppose)
complaining about much of anything. Because they win tournaments all
the time. Just like the !Malks. Oh wait....
> I
> guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would
> never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the
> blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious
> target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven.
> I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks.
Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection all "drain blood off your
vampires", for example. Yes, I'm aware that there are differences
between the two scenarios, but the overall effect when your deck is
working is "I transform this here blood into that there effect." Big
deal. Blood management has to be accounted for, but it's rarely going
to be the design hurdle holding you back.
> Maybe, you're right, but IMHO "Fast Eddie" is killed by the Bowl, as
> it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such
> aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them.
Oh they "have" the time. They have more time than most any other deck,
because they can take a turn completely off to tool up, then get right
back to the business of dishing out 10+ pool a turn. They just don't
bother, and probably rightly so.
It would help you in your analysis of what's good and what's bad, I
think, to widen the scope of your inquiry beyond "my one minion against
my prey's one minion." It sounds to me like that's sometimes as far as
you take it, with pronouncements like "Kindred Spirits is killed by the
bowl.
> Did you think about Charlton + Fast Reaction? This combo will
> intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge,
> then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur,
> +2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and
> Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you
> had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes.
Many of us have examined Fast Reaction, and I believe the consensus is
that it is not that good of a card. I don't see the existance of
Charlton significantly changing that, because when I say good what I
really mean is "can win tables", not beat the tar out of a vampire.
Blocking decks can certainly work, but they are far, far from being
"good" at it. Fast Eddie, now there's a deck that's good at it. Lucky
to be an !Malk, eh?
> But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they
> cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now.
You know, I've got a bit of a persecution complex when it comes to
Assamites. At the end of the day I think I'm right about the big happy
humping that they, ridiculously, continue to recieve set after set right
up until this day. But it is goddamn hilarious to hear that same song
coming from some guy about the Malkavian Antitribu. I just wanted to
take a moment to thank you for the excellent, *excellent* entertainment!
--
David Cherryholmes
James Coupe
Which I think is a big mistake, really.
This also ties into Ector saying:
>How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first
>action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action
>per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :)
I think not packing at least some rush in a largely intercept deck is a
big mistake, and part of the reason why intercept decks (as a class[0])
do badly and have a bad reputation.
Where I think intercept can do well is in keeping you around for a long
time to do shit, especially when teamed up with combat. Then you can
exploit, say, the power of permanent cards - Laptops, locations,
whatever it is that works for you.
Where it does badly is that you can't make people act - and there are
some kick ass decks that don't do it much, anyway. Anarch Revolt/Anson
decks, say. If Anson doesn't act, you can't block him and destroy him.
Ditto quite a few annoying vampires who are in there for kick-ass
specials, rather than cool actions they can take, or whatever. Some
people have suggested doing that with e.g. the Baali, for instance.
Leave them tapped, use the special on the particular vampire.
So, (some) rush in intercept decks is good++. I particularly like Nose
of the Hound, for the Auspex decks, though a mix of that and Bum's Rush
would probably be best.
[0] i.e. there are good ones out there but...
Ector
> It's disheartening to know that the time the rest of us put in
> responding to your points is actually ignored. You think the !Malks are
> dead, and nothing we can say will convince you otherwise - because you
> don't read it, even when you respond to it and quote it in the line
> above your text. :/
I apologize for this... but if you were me, you'd likely behave the
same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each
other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost
in the threads.
BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really
good?
Ector.
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > I wonder, why nobody plays Robert Carter, then? Why Gangrels are
> > complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :)
>
> He's popular as hell, as far as I can ascertain. And I don't recall
> hearing "Gangrel players" (of which I would be one, I suppose)
> complaining about much of anything. Because they win tournaments all
> the time. Just like the !Malks. Oh wait....
mentioned "Fast Eddie" deck. Seems strange for a card that's "popular
like hell"...
> > I
> > guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would
> > never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the
> > blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious
> > target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven.
> > I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks.
>
> Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection all "drain blood off your
> vampires", for example. Yes, I'm aware that there are differences
> between the two scenarios, but the overall effect when your deck is
> working is "I transform this here blood into that there effect." Big
> deal. Blood management has to be accounted for, but it's rarely going
> to be the design hurdle holding you back.
Deflections.
You decide whether the vamp can play these cards or he is already low
on blood, so you'd better play them with another vamp. Cards like
Robert Carter and Polaris Coach don't allow you to make any decisions:
you MUST spend one blood per turn, even if it's the last point of
blood on the vampire, or lose the card.
>
> > Maybe, you're right, but IMHO "Fast Eddie" is killed by the Bowl, as
> > it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such
> > aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them.
>
> Oh they "have" the time. They have more time than most any other deck,
> because they can take a turn completely off to tool up, then get right
> back to the business of dishing out 10+ pool a turn. They just don't
> bother, and probably rightly so.
doubt that ultra-agressive decks can play a lot of Coaches... And the
vamp needs to spend two blood to get ANY effect from the Coach, so it
probably won't be played on 4-5 capacity vamps that populate weenie
decks.
> It would help you in your analysis of what's good and what's bad, I
> think, to widen the scope of your inquiry beyond "my one minion against
> my prey's one minion." It sounds to me like that's sometimes as far as
> you take it, with pronouncements like "Kindred Spirits is killed by the
> bowl.
> > Did you think about Charlton + Fast Reaction? This combo will
> > intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge,
> > then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur,
> > +2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and
> > Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you
> > had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes.
>
> Many of us have examined Fast Reaction, and I believe the consensus is
> that it is not that good of a card. I don't see the existance of
> Charlton significantly changing that, because when I say good what I
> really mean is "can win tables", not beat the tar out of a vampire.
> Blocking decks can certainly work, but they are far, far from being
> "good" at it. Fast Eddie, now there's a deck that's good at it. Lucky
> to be an !Malk, eh?
way, but it isn't the easiest anymore. Speaking about Fast Reaction:
if you are going to play Charltons, a lot of combat cards and vamps
with Auspex anyway, why aren't you going to use almost safe way to
kill the opposing vampires? You won't need to pack extra intercept
(Charlton's +1 intercept can block many actions) - just play your Fast
Reaction and kill.
> > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they
> > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now.
>
> You know, I've got a bit of a persecution complex when it comes to
> Assamites. At the end of the day I think I'm right about the big happy
> humping that they, ridiculously, continue to recieve set after set right
> up until this day. But it is goddamn hilarious to hear that same song
> coming from some guy about the Malkavian Antitribu. I just wanted to
> take a moment to thank you for the excellent, *excellent* entertainment!
I've just posted a deck based on advanced Hannibal with a huge
vampires and Minion Taps to regain pool. As the deck has no Voter
Captivations and it wants to use blood-expensive abilities, it must
regain blood with the other methods. Surely, I could play Giant's
Blood (only one in a game), Fifth Tradition etc. etc., but
diablerizing the vampire after shooting from Ivory Bow or playing Coma
seemed attractive enough. But Charlton completely changes this - would
you dare to diablerie if you suspect that somebody plays him? And he
is going to be quite popular, since he is really good.
Now you can laugh if you wish - I am really glad to entertain you :)
Ector
Ector
I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults.
> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool
> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment.
> >> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1
> >> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding.
> >
> >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first
> >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action
> >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :)
>
> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something?
return?
> >Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked
> >and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are
>
> Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted
> Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually
> oust your prey.
tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette?
And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume
that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table
wrath.
> >going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette,
> >Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once
> >per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce...
> >bounce... BOUNCE???
>
> No, you can bleed more than once per turn. You just don't know how, and
> you aren't willing to listen to the rest of us telling you.
>
> Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically
> Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all
> good to go.
powerful "casual intercept" decks like Tremere Magic of the Smith/Bowl
decks. They can easily pack, say, 6 Telepathic Misdirections and 3
Deflections.
> >> Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the
> >> Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of
> >> Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10
> >> and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth
> >> cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and
> >> you're set against the rest of his vamps.
> >
> >Really, how convenient... Kindred Spirits, Eyes, FN, Elder
> >Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see
> >Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes
>
> You know, dude, you really have a bad case of "my deck can do everything
> and it will beat yours" disease. Above, I indicated "add a few more
> stealth cards". I would assume you would add Lost In Crowds to this,
> which allows you to bypass the 2nd tradition player, who will REMAIN
> TAPPED. But at this point, you've got so much intercept in the deck
> that it isn't capable of going forward, and won't win, so it's kind of
> irrelevant -- I am not worried about facing this deck.
>
> Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and
> all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not
> their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant.
stealth is needed, and would it make the deck absurd or not (i.e.
"what can I do with my 50 stealth cards if nobody blocks me"). Most
S&B decks already have 30 stealth cards or even more.
> >And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy
> >bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments.
>
> Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE
> profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI.
due to the lack of cards. I played the most traditional !Malk Kindred
Spirits S&B for a few months, including one tournament.
> I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block"
> bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead
> to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get
> there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an
> 8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast.
Surely, such decks can negate the new cards, but the traditional
Kindred Spirits deck isn't viable anymore. Elder Impersonations and
Faceless Nights are good, but you'll need them both (or Faceless
Nights + many other stealth cards) to tap the Bowling vampire. What if
you don't have all the needed cards? Cycle until you find them? But
S&B decks should be fast...
> >Well, I won't explain what YOUR post reveals... Please think about it
> >yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only
> >decks to the various diversified metagame.
>
> Yeah, I've thought about it, and what I see is you being a crying little
> baby because you don't want to adapt your decks to deal with a changing
> metagame. Suck it up, boy, figure it out, move on.
local Infernal Plague Storyline tournament with DOM/OBF Malks (1-2
groups) + Arika, and it would be quite easy to remake the deck with
Seductions. It was clear to me even prior to the discussion, as well
as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying.
Ector
Sten During
> as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying.
>
> Ector
Last time I saw KS S&B was during the EC. My grand prey, hunting
weenie dominate bleed, hunting weenie dominate bleed.
There was nothing we could to to prevent the Malk/!Malk from
grabbing 2 VP, and the only thing enabling me to force a
time out was my playing a dominate !bleed deck packing 16
wakes and 14 Deflection/Redirection.
Dying deck type? Nopes.
Sure, I would have preferred being his prey, but that's a
totally different story :)
Power bleeders are not, repeat, not, hosed by intercept. They
really dislike bounce though, especially the S&B type.
Playing S&B I'd be a lot less afraid of intercept compared to
weenie rush.
Playing S&B, which I usually avoid, I'd concentrate on vamps
capacity 4 - 7 rather than 6 - 10, which is a common mistake
I've been hunted by a number of times.
Sten During
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > Channel 10 is fair, but the Bowl isn't. It can easily be fetched with
> > Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor.
> > Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this..
>
> If you are worried about Bowl of Convergence, use your own. It is *unique*.
> The Malkavians can even use Sibyl's Tounge to go get it quickly. Or you can
> use Equipment hosers (Anarch Troublemaker?) that are incredibly useful in a
> general sense, especially these days (what with all the Assault Rifles and
> all). Or just use more stealth. Or block denial (Elder Intervention). Or
> Coma them when they block you.
>
> I'm sooooo not seeing where the problem is. It is only functionally better
> than a Sport Bike on someone with AUS. And they already have the ability to
> block you anyway with Enhanced Senses and some back up transient intercept.
>
intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots
for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept
cards. If they pack more combat cards, they will torporize my minions
each time they block it. If they pack more bleed & bounce cards, they
would be able to bounce some of my bleeds and oust their prey first.
And if they pack more intercept, they would block all my actions.
There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best
one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits
decks don't use the card. But I guess the deck would be quite
possible, as we can fetch anything, though it would never be as
effective as before. I can even try to build the deck.
Ector
kushiel
> > I will now predict:
> >
> > <Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat>
> >
> > "The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian
> > Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer."
> >
> > <Takes off robe and hat>
>
> I'd be happy if this would really happen. I will gladly devote the
> whole newsletter to the new deck, I will praise its creator etc. etc.
> It's like the second coming of Messiah :) Many of us would be happy if
> this would happen, but who really believes in this? :)
Given the responses to your hyperbolic cries that the sky is falling
onto the head of stealth/bleed, everyone who has posted in this thread
seems to believe it. Let it go.
Making sweeping generalizations ("Stealth/bleed is no longer a
viable strategy!" "The Bowl is broken, though I've never seen it
played!" "All stealth/bleed decks contain 4 Blood Dolls!") is incredibly
damaging to your credibility, given that you have no actual data of
any kind to back up these assertions. Quit it.
If you're truly, truly tearing out your hair at the thought that
you will no longer be able to bleed, without getting blocked, for
2-3 pool damage with 3-4 minions per turn (as all stealth/bleed decks
do, of course), change your strategy. Newsletters should be a forum
to discuss new ideas to suit the changing metagame and respond to new
cards released in new sets, both those usable by your clan and those
you know you're going to need to respond to. They are not personal
soapboxes for their authors to rant about how their clan is screwed
and why that clan needs more toys. Quit it already.
If the printing of the Bowl is giving you nightmares, start
using Blackmail, Change of Target, and Sleeping Mind at inferior
(plenty of the poor, defenseless, terribly weak, table-sweeping
vampires in your clan have inferior Dominate, which is all that
you need for this substrategy). Stop whining that your old strategy,
which you seem dedicated to increasing the effiency of despite the
fact that it is already easily the most efficient winning strategy
in the game, isn't working any more, and come up with a new strategy.
That's what the evolution of CCGs is all about, and is why they are
interesting to play.
James Coupe
>same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each
>other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost
>in the threads.
The trick is to post less, but make it count.
The other problem you're having, however, is that you're repeatedly
trying to defend things which make very little sense to the rest of us.
Posting things such as "Stealth bleed is dead", "The !Malks can only do
stealth bleed" and so on are likely to lead to many raised eyebrows when
the rest of us know the versatility they have.
Another trick is to, say, have a text file that you have easily
available (quick launch menu, short-cut from the desktop or whatever,
depending on your OS) for interesting ideas. Just cut and paste the
useful titbits from your news-reader into your text file, with a
reference back to where it came from.
>BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really
>good?
In the sense that you can plan for it? No.
However, the repeatedly suggested Malk/!Malk Derange/PTO deck is
potentially very strong - and uses big vampires, making Derange playable
across a lot of vampires. Since you're using Derange for that anyway,
it makes sense to use it to take out titles when you can as well -
should you need to.
The thing is, you really need the card to be there for something else,
since if you only include it for vote defence, you're screwed if no-one
is bothered by it. e.g. the Lasombra breed and power structure deck
that bleeds a lot but has a few votes around for icing on the cake, so
it doesn't matter that they lost a title (unless you played it early
enough to annoy a Creation Rites angle, say) since they still have 8
votes from their weenies and Power Structure. Ditto a Presence deck
that can still force things through with Bewitching Oration and Iron
Glare, say, even leaving out the Awes.
So, it's not an instant fix. But if you're having them around for some
other reason (say, Malkavian Dementia as another option), it's worth
considering.
James Coupe
>intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots
>for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept
>cards.
Much less? No.
Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is
unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out
(e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway -
with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you
necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2
Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0]
*All* unique equipment (and locations) suffer from the same problems -
how many to include to get it?, how few to include to avoid jamming on
them?, what to do if the deck which it will foil contests it?
Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just
this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires
capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for
block cancellation.
Sure, I'd probably put the Bowl in any reasonable deck that it might be
useful in. But trying to rely on it strikes me as foolhardy. It's a
bonus, not something you can guarantee sensibly.
[0] This is a largely random assortment of stuff. But I like both
Precognition and the Spirit's Touch.
James Coupe
>> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something?
>Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and
>return?
No, but it would help to temper your visions of the death of stealth
bleed with the fact that you *might* be missing something due to
inexperience.
gustavo iglesias
Lets see. We are giving the game an extra KRG news radio which is not,
imho, as good as the krg news radio, and then we are giving the game a
new Mr winthrop wich is great when you dont need it (/AUS/). Where is
the problem?
Plus: "Maybe" those cards *might* decrease S&B effectiveness. Ok.
Where is the problem there? S&B decks are the most powerfull decks in
the world once you set asside 300$/€ decks that pack 10 warghouls or
whatever other uberexpensive-ubereffective 20$ card. Out of the
tourneys, im pretty sure that every non-S&B player has just breathed
happily.
> If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B
> CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds
> can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding
> with several minions, but for 3 max each.
Oxymoron alert goes on. If vote decks dont pass their votes, they will
lose. If rush decks are constantly beaten in combat, they will lose.
If intercept walls decks cant block , they will lose. If warghoul
decks cant get a war ghoul, they will lose. If pool gain decks cant
gain pool, they will lose. So yes, if a S&B deck is constantly
intercepted, it will lose. It is just that S&B decks are intercepted
as often as rush decks lose their combats or vote decks lose their
referendums. Hardly ever.
> Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3
> each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl.
Charlton is nice against nonstealth decks (toreador voting or
whatever), but it is useless in a intercept wall against Stealth
decks, couse you DONT want to block him with charlton and you WILL
play intercept anyway, so he will be playing more than 1 stealth.
Chanel 10 is worst than KRG news radio and maybe worst than WMRH talk
radio or the rumor's mill, imho, becouse they can be used in the first
action. Bowl is good in AUS walls, but it is not THAT broken, really.
It is just marginally better than Mr Winthrop WHEN you have AUS.
> Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards"
> thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B
> deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven
> Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my
> sample deck:
They CANT be killed by S&B decks, unless of course you play a Govern
the Unalingned during Maneouver Step to go to long range, and then
kill him with a Faceless night. :P. It can be killed by combat decks,
but combat decks will be blocked with your wall deck anyway so who
cares?
I have a Lucas halton deck (but the rest are weenies in my deck). Mine
can play up to 11 intercept (yours can get 6, i think), and pack Eagle
sights to kill my prey vamps (something you should add to yours if you
want to get a VP ever). I dont need more intercept on it, really, with
eagle sights, enhanced senses, 2nd traditions, quicken sights, krg
radio, marcia -the giovani which gives+1 intercept- mr
wintrop,Telepathic misdirection. etc, it is more than enough. Really.
You dont need more intercept. At all. Your problem is not that they
pack enough stealth, becouse they wont. The problem is that they have
elder intervention, which hoses you badly, and that they have kiss of
ra, that directly kills you at all...
About your deck,*yours* might need more intercept. If you do have only
2nd traditions and the bowl you will get only +4 intercept (at best +6
against second action). So when Arika is going to call a banishment on
your lucas, or PTO on Yiytzak, or she is going to KRC/conservative
you, or whatever, she will out stealth you with Lost in the
crowds+forgotten laberinth. A bleeder can play lost in the
crowd+faceless night+spying mission+swallowed by night (which are
common cards in S&B decks anyway), even if they dont draw Elder
impersonation. +4 intercept is not enough for a deck that lives or die
when it blocks.
gustavo iglesias
>
know... becouse...damn...
*runs to pack a few bum rushes to his lucas halton deck*
:D
Daneel
> Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've
> all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before.
Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm
was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the
table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn.
>> Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block"
>
> Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI
> is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you
> won't have enough of them in your deck.
I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but
despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime
over a prey with 6 DIs.
> Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But
> don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the
> Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI
> the opposing trump combat.
Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks
with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved
against the Fast Hands or the Sideslip. If the deck can handle itself
in combat, though, putting in the DIs with the explicit intention of
getting around unblockability cards does not seem to be a bad idea to me.
>> cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry
>> Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear
>> for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need
>> a DI for the same thing the very next turn).
>
> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite
> germane to the situation at hand.
I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these
"VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Emmit Svenson
> > 6x Magic of the Smith
>
I'm not a huge fan of his deck either, but to be fair, he's got a
higher chance (approx. 60%) of getting MotS and/or a Bowl in the first
10. Having the Bowl is nearly as good as having MotS, though the
stealth would be nice.
> >Ally [2]
> > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
>
> He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck.
Not meaningless; any intercept deck could use a good ally to handle
DtDs and the like. Can't be KoR'd, either. Still, a deck with no
weenies can't really afford the recruit action.
(snip the points I agree with)
Derek Ray
emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<rfn3r05lc0pbkh5rq...@4ax.com>...
>> > 6x Magic of the Smith
>>
>> Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards.
>
>I'm not a huge fan of his deck either, but to be fair, he's got a
>higher chance (approx. 60%) of getting MotS and/or a Bowl in the first
>10. Having the Bowl is nearly as good as having MotS, though the
>stealth would be nice.
Nobody will let you equip the Bowl if they can help it, though.
Having the Bowl is NOT nearly as good as having MotS, because more often
than not, the stealth is going to be critical.
I do not build decks that rely on sitting next to people who can only
generate 0 intercept, because such decks lose. Therefore I do not
consider the "equip the Bowl manually" to be an acceptable option, and
therefore it does not merit consideration in the chances of whether he
will be able to get a Bowl early. (Most S&B decks CAN block a +1
stealth action; DEM/obf decks get a boost here from Persia.)
>> >Ally [2]
>> > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
>>
>> He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck.
>
>Not meaningless; any intercept deck could use a good ally to handle
>DtDs and the like. Can't be KoR'd, either. Still, a deck with no
>weenies can't really afford the recruit action.
He's meaningless for the purposes of comparison to a S&B deck, however.
Against Daring the Dawn, he's good. Against a lot of decks, he's not
half bad. Against S&B, he's irrelevant.
Peter D Bakija
> Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less
> intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots
> for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept
> cards.
But see, again, this isn't true. 'Cause the cards you are talking about a
unique. So if you have a lot of them to insure that you get them early
enough to actually rely on them, you are taking up whatever extra space you
could have gained by using these permanents. And then, what happens if they
are contested? Are you willing to include, what, 5 Bowl of Convergence as
your main intercept booster if someone might just contest it and totally
hose you?
> There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best
> one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits
> decks don't use the card.
???
What are you even talking about? "current Kindred Spirits" decks certainly
can and likely often do use Sybil's Tounge. And if they aren't, they very
well could if they are so worried about Bown of Convergence. Heck, a Malk
S+B deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Sybil's Tounge is going to be more viable and
robust than a Tremere deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Magic o the Smith, as Sybil's
Tounge is *way* more versitile.
> But I guess the deck would be quite
> possible, as we can fetch anything, though it would never be as
> effective as before.
'Cause you have 4 or 5 cards that you can turn into any other card you want?
Yeah, you're right. That'll never work.
Ector
> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector
> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
> >I apologize for this... but if you were me, you'd likely behave the
> >same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each
> >other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost
> >in the threads.
>
> The trick is to post less, but make it count.
>
> The other problem you're having, however, is that you're repeatedly
> trying to defend things which make very little sense to the rest of us.
> Posting things such as "Stealth bleed is dead", "The !Malks can only do
> stealth bleed" and so on are likely to lead to many raised eyebrows when
> the rest of us know the versatility they have.
way I can communicate with the professional players and get their
opinions. Do you think that somebody will waste his time writing a
private mails to me? But it's really funny to prove the overconfident
newbie (i.e. me) wrong. Don't you like to be a "devil's advocate"? :)
> Another trick is to, say, have a text file that you have easily
> available (quick launch menu, short-cut from the desktop or whatever,
> depending on your OS) for interesting ideas. Just cut and paste the
> useful titbits from your news-reader into your text file, with a
> reference back to where it came from.
enough. The previous discussuon provided material for TWO !Malk
newsletters :)
> >BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really
> >good?
>
> In the sense that you can plan for it? No.
>
> However, the repeatedly suggested Malk/!Malk Derange/PTO deck is
> potentially very strong - and uses big vampires, making Derange playable
> across a lot of vampires. Since you're using Derange for that anyway,
> it makes sense to use it to take out titles when you can as well -
> should you need to.
Ector
Derek Ray
>> I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better?
>Well' maybe the reason lies in "wonderful" teachers like you? At least
>I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults.
I held up two cards you hadn't even considered in your rant, nor
mentioned in your newsletter. I pointed out that there are many more
strategies available than the ones you'd considered.
Yep, I added some insults. You weren't listening to people when they
didn't; I figure if anything makes you listen at all, that might. And
look, it did!
I think the reason you aren't learning is because you aren't willing to
listen. Not everyone is going to present the education you are looking
for on a silver platter; this doesn't mean you don't need to bite your
tongue sometimes and seriously consider some of the positions presented.
>> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool
>> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment.
>> >> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1
>> >> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding.
>> >
>> >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first
>> >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action
>> >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :)
>>
>> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something?
>
>Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and
>return?
Stick around, do whatever, but you need to understand that this game is
not learned in only a few months of play, and certainly not in such a
combat-tilted playgroup as you describe yours. And I can assure you
with 100% confidence that you do NOT have enough experience, or enough
skill at the game, to make broad, sweeping statements like "stealth
bleed is dead".
Some of us have been playing for many, many years (7 for me; 10 for most
others). We have seen an awful lot of things and played in an awful lot
of environments, and as such have acquired an awful lot of experience,
and how certain changes affect the game. If you go look on Lasombra's
site, there's an interesting article on how to win with intercept walls
there you might consider reading.
>> >Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked
>> >and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are
>>
>> Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted
>> Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually
>> oust your prey.
>
>Can you explain to a newbie like me the fact that only one of the five
>tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette?
First: Skilled play can overcome poor deckbuilding choices.
There are two main reasons I expect those decks didn't include it.
1. They don't own the card. It's rare.
2. It's a 3-pool investment. It's a huge hammer for 3 pool, since it
allows you to bleed with Kindred Spirits for 3 at +1 stealth every turn,
but it's still a 3-pool investment and many people are hesitant to
invest that much in a non-bleeding action.
>And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume
>that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table
>wrath.
AI only affects people who bleed for more than 3, so a Pulse wouldn't
inherently hose most of the !Malks. You can control how much you bleed
for if you're THAT worried about AI; I personally figure if AI is your
last defense, you're boned anyway and it just costs me a vamp to get my
VP.
However, they don't use Pulse because of this:
[21:52] <beerbot> [5] results for "!malkavian AUS under 7"; General
Perfidio Díos (5); Idalia, Prophet of Guadalajara (4); The Colonel (5);
Quira, The Bitch Queen (6); Dolphin Black (6)
Of the five vampires with superior Auspex that are less than a 7-cap,
one of them doesn't have Obfuscate, one of them doesn't have
Dementation, and two of them have only inferior in both. Quira has OBF
but is highly vulnerable to AI as a +1 bleeder (can no longer control
her own destiny), leaving only Dolphin Black who can play the card and
make effective use of it.
Yuck.
>> Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically
>> Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all
>> good to go.
>
>Dedicated intercept deck, maybe. But the new cards enable very
>powerful "casual intercept" decks like Tremere Magic of the Smith/Bowl
No, Ector. This is where you are making statements that you just don't
have the experience to make. You don't really understand what a
powerful intercept deck is.
Tremere intercept decks have one key problem; getting the hell beaten
out of them by something that fights better than they do. They aren't
superstrong combat; they are risking a lot every time they go into a
fight. Those decks aren't as powerful as you think, and while you can
surely build a Tremere intercept deck that can trash a stealth/bleeder,
that same deck also has extreme difficulty winning.
Couple that with the Kiss of Ra problem (still alive and well on the
tournament scene due to the viability of the Tzimisce) the Tremere also
face, and you start to realize that building a deck that can both win
and beat up stealth bleed is a very, very difficult task.
>decks. They can easily pack, say, 6 Telepathic Misdirections and 3
>Deflections.
Or they could wisely pack 8 Deflections instead, throw out about half
that intercept, add some more Wakes, and focus all that free space on
stuff that ousts their prey.
Stealth bleed has a lot more to worry about from Deflection than from
intercept, honestly.
>> Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and
>> all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not
>> their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant.
>
>Maybe, you're right. It's really hard to predict how much additional
>stealth is needed, and would it make the deck absurd or not (i.e.
>"what can I do with my 50 stealth cards if nobody blocks me"). Most
>S&B decks already have 30 stealth cards or even more.
Many S&B decks double their additional stealth as maneuvers (swallowed),
and pack cards like Revelations to remove key components from their
prey's hand and allow them to play only ONE set of stealth cards per
turn... meaning they can put in more bleed.
The trick, as always, is to attack a deck where it's weak. Intercept
decks are rarely weak on intercept; but they have serious trouble with
untap at least once per game. Being prepared to take advantage of this
will allow you to dunk them.
>> >And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy
>> >bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments.
>>
>> Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE
>> profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI.
>
>Fortunately, I played some tournaments, though our metagame is strange
>due to the lack of cards. I played the most traditional !Malk Kindred
>Spirits S&B for a few months, including one tournament.
You do realize that "a strange metagame" is not an effective foundation
from which to make broad, sweeping, universal claims, right?
Chucking "bleed for 6!" in the pipe 3 times in a single turn will
typically net you a 12-pool score and either an immediate oust, or a
delayed oust next turn, at which point you no longer need to apologize
to your grandprey for the Deflected bleed.
Of course, if you run into someone with two Deflections in hand, it gets
less tidy.
>> I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block"
>> bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead
>> to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get
>> there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an
>> 8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast.
>
>You definitely have much more experience with "don't block" decks.
And with stealth/bleed, believe it or not. I don't play it anymore (at
least not the classic forms), but that doesn't mean I don't keep an eye
on it to understand what I might face.
>Surely, such decks can negate the new cards, but the traditional
>Kindred Spirits deck isn't viable anymore. Elder Impersonations and
>Faceless Nights are good, but you'll need them both (or Faceless
>Nights + many other stealth cards) to tap the Bowling vampire. What if
>you don't have all the needed cards? Cycle until you find them? But
>S&B decks should be fast...
Here you go again, making statements that you just don't have the
experience or skill to correctly evaluate. Elder Imp and Faceless Night
are more than enough to dunk the Bowl; and you only need to have it once
or twice for the oust. I'm certain you do not realize how quickly good
S&B moves, personally.
>Who said you that I cannot adapt? Surely I can! I've just won the
>local Infernal Plague Storyline tournament with DOM/OBF Malks (1-2
>groups) + Arika, and it would be quite easy to remake the deck with
>Seductions. It was clear to me even prior to the discussion, as well
>as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying.
But see, your "fact" is a crock of shit. =) Again, I refer you to
Maris Streck -- if that didn't kill Kindred Spirits S&B, nothing that is
only "tons of intercept" will. A minion like Maris who could burn a
blood to untap another one of your minions once per action, now, THAT
might have a chance to break S&B decks, if only for the Deflection
potential.
Derek Ray
>On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 12:02:48 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've
>> all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before.
>
>Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm
>was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the
>table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn.
You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat.
Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying
Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for
awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just
sit idly and let you oust someone.
>> Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI
>> is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you
>> won't have enough of them in your deck.
>
>I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but
>despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime
>over a prey with 6 DIs.
I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the
fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and
DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects
you in combat where DI doesn't.
And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use
correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase
people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill.
>> Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But
>> don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the
>> Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI
>> the opposing trump combat.
>
>Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks
>with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved
Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail
truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked.
>against the Fast Hands or the Sideslip. If the deck can handle itself
>in combat, though, putting in the DIs with the explicit intention of
>getting around unblockability cards does not seem to be a bad idea to me.
No deck is perfect in combat. Typically ranged agg is exactly what the
wall deck's fear is -- because its own vampires are precious, and it
cannot afford to have them dunked out-of-turn. Especially those that
use tasty permanents like a Sniper Rifle and Bowl of Convergence...
>>> cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry
>>> Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear
>>> for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need
>>> a DI for the same thing the very next turn).
>>
>> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite
>> germane to the situation at hand.
>
>I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these
>"VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO.
Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game
enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to
understand how things tend to flow in a game.
Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is
the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow,
because you're never looking at it from a position of strength.
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> > Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE
> > ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well
> > as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1
> > intercept will also be quite popular...
>
> intercept wall decks just to piss off stealthbleeders. Maybe in your
> metagame, but these two cards definitely won't cause a sudden change in
> playstyles universally.
My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can regularly
block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use
Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much
more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having
too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, I
doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable.
> I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location
> that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same
> Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to
> burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do
> something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you
> have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept
> an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non?
Channel 10 is a fair card (the Bowl isn't). But S&B decks cannot pack
a lot of Arsons or wait for Arson. They should act quickly or lose.
Ector
Daneel
>> Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm
>> was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the
>> table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn.
>
> You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat.
>
> Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying
> Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for
> awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just
> sit idly and let you oust someone.
Why not let a Law Firm oust? I'm offended. No, really. ;)
Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings
the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in
as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels
some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to
cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found
the cards Anarchist Uprising and Ancilla Empowerment to be somewhat
crude but highly effective.
>> I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but
>> despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime
>> over a prey with 6 DIs.
>
> I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the
> fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and
> DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects
> you in combat where DI doesn't.
Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include
6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other.
> And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use
> correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase
> people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill.
I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing
mediocre,
average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too
great
for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made
almost
painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of your
guys will be kept in bay.
>> Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks
>> with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved
>
> Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail
> truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked.
Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think
even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that
won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two
and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not
feasible. ;)
>>> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite
>>> germane to the situation at hand.
>>
>> I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these
>> "VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO.
>
> Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game
> enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to
> understand how things tend to flow in a game.
If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need
examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see
how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll
need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient
Intercept is few, etc.
> Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is
> the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow,
> because you're never looking at it from a position of strength.
I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over.
That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a
knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is
not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best
for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a
deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic
POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Ector
> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector
> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
> >Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less
> >intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots
> >for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept
> >cards.
>
> Much less? No.
>
> Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is
> unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out
> (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway -
> with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you
> necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2
> Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0]
provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one of
your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2
one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget
about +3 stealth from Magic.
> *All* unique equipment (and locations) suffer from the same problems -
> how many to include to get it?, how few to include to avoid jamming on
> them?, what to do if the deck which it will foil contests it?
> Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just
> this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires
> capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for
> block cancellation.
without blockers. And if I get my equipment first (which is likely
with MotS), I can try to block the vampire that's trying to contest my
equipment.
>
> Sure, I'd probably put the Bowl in any reasonable deck that it might be
> useful in. But trying to rely on it strikes me as foolhardy. It's a
> bonus, not something you can guarantee sensibly.
> [0] This is a largely random assortment of stuff. But I like both
> Precognition and the Spirit's Touch.
You can serve it as you wish. It may be uber-intercept deck with
Precognition, Spirit's Touches AND Bowls/Channels, or it may be just
casual intercept like my sample deck... The problem is that even the
"casual" intercept is a huge problem to all stealth decks now. I may
suggest the "uber-intercept" deck with Carna, Aisling and others, if
you wish, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about :) But I afraid
that the "uber-intercept" deck isn't needed nowadays, as stealth deck
are going to be much less popular.
Ector
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less
> > intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots
> > for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept
> > cards.
>
> But see, again, this isn't true. 'Cause the cards you are talking about a
> unique. So if you have a lot of them to insure that you get them early
> enough to actually rely on them, you are taking up whatever extra space you
> could have gained by using these permanents. And then, what happens if they
> are contested? Are you willing to include, what, 5 Bowl of Convergence as
> your main intercept booster if someone might just contest it and totally
> hose you?
even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for the
Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with
!Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce
and play Tongues.
> > There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best
> > one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits
> > decks don't use the card.
>
> ???
>
> What are you even talking about? "current Kindred Spirits" decks certainly
> can and likely often do use Sybil's Tounge. And if they aren't, they very
> well could if they are so worried about Bown of Convergence. Heck, a Malk
> S+B deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Sybil's Tounge is going to be more viable and
> robust than a Tremere deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Magic o the Smith, as Sybil's
> Tounge is *way* more versitile.
Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots. I
use one Tongue to increase chances of getting Info Highway/Secure
Haven in time, but the reason of this os a lack of Kindred Spirits, as
I have only 12 :)
Ector
Ector
> On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote:
>
> >Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3
> >each.
>
>
>
> Bleeding at stealth is nowhere near as limited as you make it out to
> be.
>
OK, let's say that Kindred Spirits deck bleeds with 3-4 minions for
2-3 each, right? :) At least it tries to NOT playing its Eyes of Chaos
with Kindred Spirits if it can play it on different bleed action. This
minimizes risk of bounce and Archon Investigation.
Ector
Ector
> >thread. But you cannot fetch them,
>
>
> Muricia's Call
> http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=1141
>
> The Summoning
> http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=999
>
> There are tools available to decrease the falsity of your statements.
> I would recommend you investigate them, as every argument you make
> that contains falsehoods is easily (and rightly) discarded.
Oh yes, yes, these cards exist, but who cares? Fetch cards are useful
only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of
the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards.
If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't
playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call? The Summoning
requires Presence (superior Presence is needed to be effective), and
do you know a lot of good vampires with ANI and PRE? If there were
good cards to fetch Raven Spies, they would be popular :)
Ector
Ector
>
>
> I will give you the easiest one, and let you start over.
>
> Direct Intervetion.
> -Target the Magic of the Smith or the Bowl of Convergence.
The silver bullet, and universal solution. They have more Magics and
Bowls, so I should pack Anarch Troublemakers and Direct Interventions.
I guess I'll be forced to get rid of other master cards to find place
for them (i.e. remove Sudden Reversals), so it would be slower. And
slow S&B deck is going to lose.
>
> Second fix:
> Disguised Weapon - Flamethrower/Ivory Bow/Blow Torch/Rowan Ring
> plus a second disposible weenie, like Yorik to follow up with the
> diablerie.
Again, I should find a place for all these cards, and they won't make
my deck "bruise & bleed". If I put a lot of combat cards, I'll just
get a pointless deck.
> You have not been sufficiently creative if you feel your game is
> destroyed by permanent intercept, especially permanent intercept
> without damage prevention disciplines.
Celerity has Sideslip to prevent damage from Ivory Bow. Well, I *may*
be "not suffuciently creative", but permanent intercept is really
dangerous for any stealth deck.
> Sensory Deprivation destroys your stealth bleed game much more than
> permanent intercept ever will.
ONE Sensory Deprivation? Surely not. Kindred Spirits deck usually has
3-4 minions.
Ector
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> > 2x Bowl of Convergence
>
> Exchange one for Mr. Wintrop. Why two uniques?
> Where is Sire's Index Finger?
Look, it's just a SAMPLE deck to demonstrate new cards usage. I placed
Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T kill
the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be unable
to play another Troublemaker :)
> > 2x Channel 10
>
> Again replace one. KRCG, for example?
Maybe. But, again, this is a demo deck. And the first Channel can be
destroyed.
> Start praying you never see Kiss of Ra behind you.
> Start praying your bleeding prey uses dementation as the
> combination obf/dom, Stanislava bleed and, to some extent,
> nec/dom kills your deck.
> With four vamps you really, really don't want to face 'block
> fails' in combination with Faceless Night.
>
> What happens if you run into the more traditional weenie
> bleed I think we don't even need to cover here as you're
> going to take ten points of pool-damage on average before
> you see your first vamp influenced.
This deck was NOT claimed to be the "best deck in the universe". But
it really hoses Kindred Spirits decks, and it even isn't true
intercept deck!
> All that said, yes, I'll most probably replace one copy of
> Sport Bike with one Bowl in a Tor gun deck - contestation
> aside Bowl is a better card than Sport Bike.
> I'd probably replace Rumor Mill with Channel Ten, but the main
> point here is "replace", because decks using permanent intercepts
> have that many slots available and no more, unless, of course,
> I head in the direction of Anson "I promise this is no Anarch
> Revolt deck" Parthenon decks to be able to slot in all the
> "broken" masters to be able to retrieve the "broken" allies/
> retainers/equipment looping with Freak Drive and Toreador Grand
> Ball, which says less about the two cards discussed here and more
> about fortitude combined with Tor Grand Ball.
OK, then please, try to build or proxy Kindred Spirits deck and play
it against your decks with the new cards included. You will get
precious testing information, and I'd like to know your feelings :) I
bet you'd like to put extra copies of the Bowl/Channel after the
testing.
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
> Ector wrote:
>
> > If the Bowl couldn't be fetched, you'd be right, but... > > See my
sample deck below :)
>
> Fetch your own. You have Sybil's Tounge.
I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip it.
And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become
weaker?
> > If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B
> > CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy
bleeds
> > can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is
bleeding
> > with several minions, but for 3 max each.
>
> That is the whole idea of your S+B deck, apparently. S+B isn't going
> anywhere at all. Neither is any other strategy that uses heavy
stealth. The
> ability to reliably block any action *already exists*. And it hasn't
> hampered S+B even remotely, in a strategic sense.
Oh, it seems that you are missing my primary argument. It was really
possible to create a deck that would block all actions, but the deck
would have no ways to win. Please look at my sample deck: it is NOT an
intercept deck. It has just a light intercept module (2 Bowls, 2
Channels, 2 Charltons and Second Traditions). It can play bruise and
bleed from the very beginning, if you wish, BUT it still can regilarly
block Kindred Spirits deck. And that's really bad for !Malks.
> > Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3
> > each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the
Bowl.
>
> Hardly.
Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it provide
at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not. And
the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth.
> > Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards"
> > thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B
> > deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven
> > Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my
> > sample deck:
>
> You don't need to fetch Raven Spies. You just play lots of them
'cause, see,
> they aren't unique (like the bowl), so having 15 in a deck is
actually
> useful *and* it lets you build a strategy around having them. Heck, 3
or 3
> weenie minions, someone with ANI, and Shepards Innocence, and you can
have 4
> Raven Spies on a single minion in a single turn.
Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6
MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge.
> > Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres
> > Author : Ilya Ginsburg
> > Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons
>
> (deck snipped)
>
> Ok. You have built an intercept wall deck that can stop actions a
lot. Woo.
> I could show you thirty of those in 4 minutes that will be just as
effective
> at stopping actions that don't use any of the new cards. But, see,
the thing
> is is that decks like that don't win. It has limited forward momentum
(due
> to lack of evasion of any sort--it's bleeds will be blocked easily).
Limited
> combat defense (it will be killed by decks that *want* to be
blocked). And
> even in the best of situations, it is going to get 2 VPs while its
forward
> inclined prey gets 3. Hardly something to worry about in a strategic
sense.
> Yeah, if a Malk S+B deck sitn next to it, it might be hosed. But then
the
> same thing happens if the Malk deck sits next to someone with 15
> Deflections.
Intercept wall deck? Are you joking? This deck is just a sample of
flexibility provided by the new cards. If your predator is S&B, fetch
the Bowl first. If he plays Rush or Bruise & Bleed, fetch Ivory Bow.
This deck can play BOTH intercept and bruise&bleed. I could even
include Laptops.
I can agree that it's far from optimal, but it should demonstrate that
even non-dedicated intercept decks can block Kindred Spirits decks most
of the times now.
> > Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And
> > Therefore They Are Much Stronger.
>
> No they don't. Unique forms of Permanent Intercept are unreliable.
Even
> *with* Magic of the Smith.
What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less
reliable.
> > If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
>
> Just keep playing the game, and you'll prove yourself wrong
eventually.
Definitely, I'll try :)
Ector
salem
>James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<gK+LcIa3...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
>> Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is
>> unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out
>> (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway -
>> with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you
>> necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2
>> Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0]
>Really? If you get one of my 8 cards, you effectively get a Bowl that
>provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one of
>your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2
>one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget
>about +3 stealth from Magic.
yes. in your deck, once you have one of your cards, the rest of them
are dead draws that just clog your hand. with james's, it's all
useful.
>> Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just
>> this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires
>> capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for
>> block cancellation.
>If I have Magic of the Smith, or Vast Wealth I may get my equipment
>without blockers.
not seeing how vast wealth acheives that, but anyway...
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Derek Ray
>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:22:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm
>>> was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the
>>> table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn.
>>
>> You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat.
>>
>> Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying
>> Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for
>> awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just
>> sit idly and let you oust someone.
>
>Why not let a Law Firm oust? I'm offended. No, really. ;)
>
>Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings
Bzzt. This indicates you have not reached the threshold of knowledge to
understand how what you just said is completely false, or to realize
just how far in advance skilled players can and do look at a game.
>the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in
>as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels
>some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to
>cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found
You won't have all those in hand every turn, and the !Malk pool gains
pretty darn well and moves faster than you do.
>> I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the
>> fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and
>> DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects
>> you in combat where DI doesn't.
>
>Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include
>6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other.
If nothing else, because you only get 12 Master phase actions in a game,
and I'm sure you want to play something besides OOT Masters.
>> And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use
>> correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase
>> people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill.
>
>I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing
>mediocre,
>average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too
>great
>for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made
Lack of discipline = weak player.
>almost
>painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of your
>guys will be kept in bay.
Not all decks have the capacity to leave one guy in the bin.
Know that Rotschreck requires aggravated damage. Do not be surprised
when that damage reappears in a normal fashion against your deck.
>>> Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks
>>> with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved
>>
>> Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail
>> truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked.
>
>Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think
>even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that
>won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two
>and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not
>feasible. ;)
Didn't both of those carry a number of Sniper Rifles and Magnums, too?
That doesn't qualify as "absolutely no combat" to me. I think you
better be careful what words you use in the future; maybe think before
posting?
>>>> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite
>>>> germane to the situation at hand.
>>>
>>> I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these
>>> "VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO.
>>
>> Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game
>> enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to
>> understand how things tend to flow in a game.
>
>If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need
>examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see
>how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll
>need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient
>Intercept is few, etc.
You are foolish if you think that examples like those are not the best
way to teach someone. I gave him the best possible setup for his deck
(his favorite two vamps, one with a bowl, and channel 10 all in play),
and then gave myself an average setup for mine (dem/obf weenies instead
of all OBF or all DEM).
When using examples like this, it is important to carefully arrange your
test case so that your opponent has his ideal configuration, while you
have an average one. Anyone who has played enough can easily identify a
true "average" run for a deck, and the ideal config is usually what your
opposition is trying to hold up as "average".
>> Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is
>> the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow,
>> because you're never looking at it from a position of strength.
>
>I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over.
>That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a
>knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is
>not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best
>for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a
>deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic
>POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that.
First: What makes you think I haven't looked at Big Tremere Walls with
permanents and 2nd Tradition in the past?
Second: You're wrong, plain and simple. There's plenty of point, but
only if you use meaningful test cases (as I did).
David Cherryholmes
>>I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location
>>that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same
>>Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to
>>burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do
>>something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you
>>have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept
>>an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non?
>
> Channel 10 is a fair card (the Bowl isn't). But S&B decks cannot pack
> a lot of Arsons or wait for Arson. They should act quickly or lose.
What I'm about to say is, I think, fairly obvious. But I haven't seen
anything like it crop up in your analysis of your clan and, by
extension, stealth bleed. S+B does pool damage very quickly. Quick
pool damage inhibits what your prey is even going to be able to put on
the table. This results in an across the board weakening of *whatever*
strategy they are using. In other words, if you are running these
thought experiments with ideas like "I have 3 minions and he has 3
minions", then that may be a fundamental flaw that leads you to reason
your way along to your (faulty, IMO) conclusions.
Anyway, just a thought. I'm still trying to wrap my head around your
POV, and thought maybe this oversight could be a cause.
--
David Cherryholmes
David Cherryholmes
> Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think
> even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that
> won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two
> and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not
> feasible. ;)
I wouldn't count the latter as a wall deck. It may block every bit as
well as a wall deck, but it can swarm bleed when it chooses to.
Hhhmmm... I can be a wall *and* I can be a swarm bleed deck. Nope,
nothing excessively good to see here, move along.
--
David Cherryholmes
Daneel
...
...
...huh?
Did I miss the point?
--
Bye,
Daneel
David Cherryholmes
> ...
>
> ...huh?
>
> Did I miss the point?
I guess so. Derek asserted low combat wall decks don't oust, and you
said they did, and cited a weenie deck as an example. To which I
replied that you can't properly classify those as wall decks, as they
have properties, i.e. the ability to bleed effectively for large
amounts, that wall decks don't possess, making your example a poor one.
--
David Cherryholmes
Daneel
>> Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings
>
> Bzzt. This indicates you have not reached the threshold of knowledge to
> understand how what you just said is completely false, or to realize
> just how far in advance skilled players can and do look at a game.
It's not about seeing. It's about getting ousted _now_ and not having to
worry about the next menace or using all it takes to thwart the immediate
danger and perhaps live to see the next.
>> the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in
>> as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels
>> some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to
>> cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found
>
> You won't have all those in hand every turn, and the !Malk pool gains
> pretty darn well and moves faster than you do.
Well, that's not my experience. The DEM SB may gain a pool or two each
turn, but LF can steal that all with one Parity Shift. Been there and
done that from both sides, and the Law Firm almost always has gotten
the SB prey. Especially since you can give Parity Shift pool to your
grandprey... ;)
>> Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include
>> 6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other.
>
> If nothing else, because you only get 12 Master phase actions in a game,
> and I'm sure you want to play something besides OOT Masters.
You have a remarkable way of sounding disapproving even when you basically
restate what I wrote. I like that... ;)
>> I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing
>> mediocre,
>> average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too
>> great
>> for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made
>
> Lack of discipline = weak player.
But, when a good opportunity comes you need to assess whether it is an
opportunity worth taking, or just a bait. It all comes down to player
skill in the end. Unless, of course, one deck completely trumps the
other.
>> almost
>> painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of
>> your
>> guys will be kept in bay.
>
> Not all decks have the capacity to leave one guy in the bin.
>
> Know that Rotschreck requires aggravated damage. Do not be surprised
> when that damage reappears in a normal fashion against your deck.
Also note that Rötschreck is a form of defence as well as a way to
circumvent prevention and S:CE. A deck that relies on Rötschreck
may not be strong enough without it.
>> Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I
>> think
>> even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that
>> won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two
>> and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not
>> feasible. ;)
>
> Didn't both of those carry a number of Sniper Rifles and Magnums, too?
> That doesn't qualify as "absolutely no combat" to me. I think you
> better be careful what words you use in the future; maybe think before
> posting?
Check the rulebook for definition of combat cards. By the way, Stefan's
deck was pretty light on combat equipment too - in fact, it won the EC
finals with numbers, bounce, intercept and punches for 1.
>> If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need
>> examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see
>> how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll
>> need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient
>> Intercept is few, etc.
>
> You are foolish if you think that examples like those are not the best
> way to teach someone. I gave him the best possible setup for his deck
> (his favorite two vamps, one with a bowl, and channel 10 all in play),
> and then gave myself an average setup for mine (dem/obf weenies instead
> of all OBF or all DEM).
Are you talking about illustrating a point to an experienced player who
has a grasp of the game flow, or are you talking about teaching noobies?
You seemed to refer to the former before, and now you seem to refer to
the latter. I'm just curious because if you keep jumping issues you seem
like dodging my argument.
> When using examples like this, it is important to carefully arrange your
> test case so that your opponent has his ideal configuration, while you
> have an average one. Anyone who has played enough can easily identify a
> true "average" run for a deck, and the ideal config is usually what your
> opposition is trying to hold up as "average".
Your draw was good. An average draw would not have had Enchanted
Marionette.
Still, these examples do not (and can not) consider seating - which is of
high importance in a real example.
>> I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over.
>> That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a
>> knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is
>> not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best
>> for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a
>> deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic
>> POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that.
>
> First: What makes you think I haven't looked at Big Tremere Walls with
> permanents and 2nd Tradition in the past?
I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about the person you try to
instruct.
He needs to build the deck and try it, because otherwise all is just
speculation.
Sure, after so many years of gaming you probably tried some concepts and
toyed with a lot others, but that does not make you an excellent aouthority
on all deck types - maybe a mediocre one at best.
> Second: You're wrong, plain and simple.
No, you're wrong! It's plain and simple. ;)
> There's plenty of point, but only if you use meaningful test cases (as I
> did).
What is meaningful in taking a good draw for a deck, and then placing a
virtual predator behind it that is selected especially for its ability to
kill it? Please, do others a favor and urge them to try their decks
instead of presenting iffy examples designed to prove that their decks are
poor. I think that if you really wish to instruct, you'll do just that,
because given your style the people who would listen to you instead of
dismissing you outright are probably least in need of being instructed.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Daneel
I see.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Ec...@mail.ru
switching tactics in a moment is really wonderful. And I should use
lower-capacity vampires for my example, and dump Celerity. I just
wanted to show that each caught !Malk is going to die from all that
multiple Thefts and Bows.
I should use Aisling, Hannigan, Richard Tauber, Selena and Carna. The
same Magics of the Smith can fetch Laptops and weapons for several
minions. Unfortunately, this deck won't be able to play Second
Traditions, but it WILL block !Malks and drain their blood. Do you
think that I should provide another decklist?
Ector
X_Ze...@cox-internet.com
>Well' maybe the reason lies in "wonderful" teachers like you? At least
>I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults
Well, maybe you should try insults. Then we might not be confused that
you are trying to insult us.
>> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something?
>Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and
>return?
You should definantly play for a few more years, but you don't have to
leave to do so.
>Can you explain to a newbie like me the fact that only one of the five
>tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette?
>And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume
>that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table
>wrath
The primary reason is that they don't need to. Using Pulse and
Enchanted Marrionette in S&B is as contrived as Goldfinger using the
overly elaborate LASER OF DEATH on James Bond when he could have just
shot him.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Ec...@mail.ru
salem wrote:
> On 5 Dec 2004 23:44:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) scrawled:
>
> >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:<gK+LcIa3...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
>
> >> Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence
is
> >> unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring
them out
> >> (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway
-
> >> with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you
> >> necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced
Senses, 2
> >> Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0]
>
> >Really? If you get one of my 8 cards, you effectively get a Bowl
that
> >provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one
of
> >your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2
> >one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget
> >about +3 stealth from Magic.
>
> yes. in your deck, once you have one of your cards, the rest of them
> are dead draws that just clog your hand. with james's, it's all
> useful.
draws". I have six Magics and six equipments. Second Bowl may be a dead
draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm going
to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways...
> >> Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions
(not just
> >> this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires
> >> capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target
for
> >> block cancellation.
>
> >If I have Magic of the Smith, or Vast Wealth I may get my equipment
> >without blockers.
>
> not seeing how vast wealth acheives that, but anyway...
OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked
only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the
action. Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the
action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try to
equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic
Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the ultra-powerful
card.
Ector
Matt Green
"Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com...
> Fetch cards are useful
> only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of
> the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards.
> If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't
> playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call?
Maybe because you want to 'recruit' twice in one turn? Jack of Both sides?
That's three times. 3 permanent intercept in one turn. Not so bad.
Hang on though....what if you did that with Raptors....?
Think about things a bit more.
Matt Green
Ec...@mail.ru
Derek Ray wrote:
> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>,
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>
> >Author : Ilya Ginsburg
> >Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3
> >3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3
> >3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre
!Toreador:3
> >2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2
>
> This crypt is way too big. Fast decks will cream you.
I agree with this - just wanted to use Celerity for better
demonstration. And Second Traditions require at least Princes.
> >Library [90 cards]
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Action [18]
> > 8x Govern the Unaligned
> > 2x Graverobbing
> > 6x Magic of the Smith
> > 2x Pulse of the Canaille
>
> Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards.
>
> You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer.
As someone posted, I *CAN* attempt to equip the Bowl itself, so the
percentage is higher. Why should my prey attempt to block it if he
knows that I have decent combat abilities, but no Eagle's Sights to
block his directed actions? My S&B predator can have Persia or Kite,
but it I don't see them on the table, I can try.
> I removed the equipment, but if you ever paid 4 pool for a
Flamethrower,
> I would expect that to seal your doom instantly. Your guys are too
> expensive and you have little way to get it back.
I have 5 Minion Taps and 8 Governs. This may be little against S&B in
bad situation, but generally it's OK.
> > 3x Sudden Reversal
> > 2x Zillah's Valley
> > 2x Channel 10
>
> Only 38% chance of getting an influence accelerator in your first 10
> cards. Talk about needing to get lucky... you're going to need a
> miracle at this point.
Oh, this is NOT an "anti-S&B deck". This is an example of deck that can
play both intercept and bruise & bleed.
> >Reaction [21]
> > 5x Deflection
>
> Better hope you aren't relying on these; you don't have anywhere near
> enough to bounce more than the occasional bleed, especially since you
> won't cycle any of those combat cards.
What a self-confidence! You must be World Champion, not less...
> > 2x Fast Reaction
>
> You won't ever have more than two vampires, and you're going to tap
both
> of them just to steal some blood? Please, be my prey.
Fast Reaction are just to demonstrate combo with Charlton. Even if I
have Charlton without Bowl, my S&B predator will run out of stealth,
and if he will bleed just to tap the Charlton, Fast Reaction will
punish this. It would also good against rushes: I block the rush with
Charlton, dodge if I can, then my vamp with the Bow plays Fast
Reaction, Theft, Blur, Theft and shoots with the Bow (ideally).
> > 8x Second Tradition: Domain
> > 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
>
> You'll be stuck having to influence Zagreb or Yitzak, just to save
your
> ass against a fast deck -- leaving you with only one person to play
2nd
> Tradition. Who will get the Bowl?
I really plan to have Lucas + Zagreb at least. Maybe I should add more
Info Highways to get them?
> >Ally [2]
> > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
>
> He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck.
I wonder, what S&B deck are you speaking about? If you mean a deck with
infinite stealth and infinite bleed modifiers, then Charlton is
probably meaningless.
> >It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the
> >current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or
> >Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs
as
>
> You'll get smeared by Elder Impersonation, Seduction, etc. I would
> expect any decent stealth/bleed deck to oust this weak-ass thing JUST
as
> it was influencing its second vampire.
I have played Kindred Spirits S&B for a two months, and my deck (just a
standard KS deck you may find in TWDA) won't be capable of this. I
guess you possess a supernatural knowledge about deckbuilding! Please,
share it!
> Your maximum intercept total on a single vampire is +6. You have
only 8
> cards of transient intercept, meaning that if you don't get the Bowl
or
> Channel 10 (a 50% chance of doing so early, remember), you are
relying
> totally on your 2nd Traditions. Channel 10 can't be used on the
first
> action, so your maximum intercept total on THAT action is +4,
something
> I routinely see stealth decks overcome with just transient stealth.
I don't need more intercept. More Minion Taps, maybe. How much stealth
cards would you pack into your S&B deck? You may pass a couple of
actions, then your vamps will be catched and drained.
> You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a
secondary
> minion. Faceless Night and Lost in Crowds beat that. Let's go back
to
> our above example, shall we?
>
> You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb
out,
> somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with
an
> Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys.
>
> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10.
> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl.
> Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood?
> You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept.
> Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else.
> You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition.
> Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please.
> You: Damn, my deck sucks.
> Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool.
Funny, very funny example indeed. But did you notice that you played
Kindred Spirits, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation, Lost in Crowds
and Eyes of Chaos (five cards total), and I played only one Second
Tradition? And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do
you have?
And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and LinC
in your hand? Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey
cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you
Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh?
> You think you'll Deflect? You might do it once, but not with only 5
in
> your deck; you'll have a hand full of combat cards before long. In
> fact, in the above example I would go nuts bleeding you with all the
> rest of my minions, because you've just wasted two untap cards to no
> effect; the odds are HUGE that you don't have a third. I have great
> chances of ousting you this turn, in fact, if I drew into more bleed
> mods.
I really think that I could pack Telepathic Misdirections in addition
to deflections. But, again, that was just a quick sketch, not
pretending to be "the best deck in the world".
> You know the best part? All those cards I played are found in
MULTIPLES
> in good stealth/bleed decks. Like, 8-of-each multiples. I can do
that
> every turn, easily. Your deck, on the other hand, will be ousted.
No. Most decks avoid packing more than 5-6 copies of an action
modifier. I want to see your super-mega-winning S&B deck even more than
earlier.
> Perhaps it can get lucky and play against a "10-cap calls one vote a
> turn" deck as its predator, so it has time to get set up. But then
it
> still can't oust anyone.
Most Kindred Spirits decks have average cap between 5 and 5.5. They
aren't weenies. And some of their vamps even has inferior Obfuscate, so
you cannot play those brilliant Elder Impersonations at superior...
> >Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And
> >Therefore They Are Much Stronger.
> >
> >If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :)
>
> Just did. Happy now?
I'd like to look at your decklist first. Then I'll test the decks and
tell you whether I'm happy or not. The testing will probably show a lot
of not-so-funny examples involving "Cowardly !Malks are doing nothing,
cycling for stealth modifiers" or even "poor Malkavian, drained to
dust" :)
Ector
X_Ze...@cox-internet.com
>> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl.
You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card and
1st action
>> Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood?
>> You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept.
Burn 1st blood
>> Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else.
>> You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition.
3rd card 2nd blood
>> Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please.
>> You: Damn, my deck sucks.
>> Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool.
>Funny, very funny example indeed. But did you notice that you played
>Kindred Spirits, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation, Lost in Crowds
>and Eyes of Chaos (five cards total), and I played only one Second
>Tradition?
Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful
action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into play
or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood.
These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more
into the pipe.
And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do
you have?
The same amount as you have bowls. ;)
And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and LinC
in your hand?
This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 redraws)
if you have built your deck correctly.
>Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey
>cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you
>Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh?
Who cares what your prey has? You can't block decks that generate 3+
stealth then make your block fail and still have a viable offense,
other than AR or Smiling Jack which are prayerish at best. There is
not enough room in a 90 card deck.
Otto Koskinen
>
>Derek Ray wrote:
>> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>,
>> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>> You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a
So, lets take this just one more step up. You've used 5 turns to bring
out two vamps, provided no speed (likely), and your preda has used his
5 turns to bring out 3 minions, at least.
After this action, you are down to 2 pool (likely, you'd be dead but
for the sake of drama..) completely tapped out, and your pred still
has 2 ready minions to suck those 2 away from you.
GG.
Peter D Bakija
> No. Two Bowls and several Magics of the Smiths would be enough. I can
> even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for the
> Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with
> !Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce
> and play Tongues.
Right. You can have two bowls and several Magics. So you can give one minion
+2 intercept for 1 blood. Which might be contested, stolen, or destroyed.
This doesn't strike me as any more effective (less effective, really, in an
absolute sense) that replacing all those cards with Sports Bikes and Mr.
Winthrops. At leats then, you can have multiple minions with intercept, to
avoid getting completely hosed by single minion hosers.
> Just look into TWDA. Current Kindred Spirits decks don't use Sibyl's
> Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots.
There are, like, 7 !Malk decks in the TWD archive from the time span that
Sybil's Tounge was play legal. Of those, only 4 are S+B decks, and all of
them are sufficiently mixed crypts such that Sybils Tongue would be
unreliable, at best. Looking at the TWD archive for evidence of use of
Sybil's Tongue is, apparently, not really a good idea.
This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue. Especially
if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that Bowl of
Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it
isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to get it.
And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some bleed
bounce when you need it.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Peter D Bakija
> I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip it.
> And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become
> weaker?
I thought Bowl of Covergence was so powerful as to render S+B decks
pointless. Given this, how could it possible make your deck weaker to
include them?
> Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it provide
> at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not. And
> the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth.
Then they need to change their decks so they can. That is one of the
wonderful things about CCGs--the strategies keep evolving and changing, so
it doesn't become stale. The Bowl might make S+B decks have to tweak their
deck design some. How is that bad?
The same thing happened when Archon Investigation entered the game. Decks
changed and evolved. How was that bad?
> Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6
> MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge.
6 MoTS and 2 Bowls aren't going to protect the deck from S+B. You could just
have, like, 8 Enhanced Senses and get mostly the same effect without taking
an action, without spending blood, and without making a single vampire a
target.
> What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less
> reliable.
Wha? If I have 10 of a transient card in my deck, I'm likely to have one
when I need it. That is what we like to call reliable. On the other hand,
having a single piece of unique equipment (that can be blocked, stolen,
contested, or destroyed) is incredibly unreliable. Using, as we have been
looking at, 2 Bowls and 6 Magics is more reliable. But no more effective
than just having 8 Enhanced Senses instead.
salem
erm, the premise i read was 6 magics and 2 bowls. i didn't see any
other equipment. in that instance, yes, the other magics aren't dead
draws. i'll happily concede that.
>Second Bowl may be a dead
>draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm going
>to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways...
and some people pack 1 info highway and 3 Dreams of the Sphinx. or 2
info 2 zillahs. or maybe a tomb. why? because the extra infos will be
dead draws.
>OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked
>only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the
>action.
umm..or blocked if your neighbour is pretty sure:
a) you put vast wealth in for a reason
b) the reason is probably bad news for someone.
> Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the
>action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try to
>equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic
>Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the ultra-powerful
>card.
or, he'd happily play with elder impersonation and let you have your
silly bowl.
or just bleed you out while you're tapped after taking the vast wealth
action.
salem
<pd...@lightlink.com> scrawled:
>This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue. Especially
>if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that Bowl of
>Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it
>isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to get it.
>And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some bleed
>bounce when you need it.
and as a bonus if your prey uses a vast welath action to get a sport
bike (as he would, instead of a silly bowl), you can block it with
your bowl. but then of course you're going to suffer in combat.
or you could just let him have the bike and bleed him out while he's
tapped.
James Coupe
<Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
>My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can regularly
>block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use
>Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much
>more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having
>too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, I
>doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable.
Sure, but how many do you pack?
Any current deck with Auspex could be using Sport Bike, KRCG and Mr
Winthrop and get to +2 pretty easily, +3 on the action you use the KRCG
on. The Sport Bikes are non-unique, so you can scatter them to taste in
your deck knowing they won't contest.[0] You can't contest their Sport
Bikes - though you can contest the other two.
I think concerns about Carlton (re: death of stealth and bleed) are
*way* over-rated. He's cute, and I think he's a good ally. But he's
not about to kill stealth and bleed dead. For a start, if a stealth and
bleed deck is sensible about it, it can be including other flexible
actions to taste - Dominate gets some fun stealing actions if you're
finding allies to be a problem by way of Far Mastery. Oh, and allies
can't Wake.
Also, any stealth deck can sit down and think "Fuck, what do I do about
all those intercept locations?" And when it finds that locations are
pretty common in the sort of decks it's facing, it can head for Arson.
Or Unnatural Disaster, if that floats your boat. If you pick to play
them, head for the first action. Ignore Channel 10. :)
Also also, stealth and bleed in many decks has a lot of tricks up its
sleeves when played cunningly. Head for action modifiers. Let them tap
Channel 10 and "waste" it on an action that wasn't using an action card.
Then throw down an action modifier when they let it through. Action
modifiers are extremely useful for such territory.
[0] They have the problem of being 'unique' per vampire - but that's a
lot less problematic than the Bowl, even if it is a pain.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
James Coupe
>only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of
>the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards.
For some values of "combo", that might be true.
Having a highly flexible set of allies or retainers, where you draw the
appropriate ones, may be another aim. e.g. if you find yourself with a
combaty predator, you head for the combat oriented cards. If you find
yourself with a vote predator, you might head for intercept instead.
And so on.
>If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't
>playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call?
Selection.
Also, on The Summoning, it gives you options for retainers and allies.
There are plenty of good allies out there.
J
placed
> Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T
kill
> the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be unable
> to play another Troublemaker :)
Yes, they will be able to play another Troublemaker. Why? Because
when it is used it goes to your prey.
If your prey, or your grandprey, or anybody other than you has the
Troublemaker, then you no longer control it - they do. Thus, you are
freely able to play another one, contesting him. It's unlikely that
people are going to contest him with you, so therefore you get it back.
If your prey has got it, and they won't relinquish it, then great,
contest the troublemaker with them for a bleed of 1 per turn.
Intercept decks generally don't rake in the pool that much. They
survive, they don't bloat or get out of control. Therefore, if you're
doing them pool damage that they can't prevent (ie can't block or
flick), it will eventually oust them more often than not.
What I think would be of greatest benefit here to Ector is if he posted
the deck that he uses most, and then perhaps the 'old heads' of the
list can possibly help him out.
--> J
"Fry crack corn, and I don't care,
Leela crack corn, I still don't care,
Bender crack corn and he is great;
Take that you stupid corn!"
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me
salem
>
>Derek Ray wrote:
>> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>,
>> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about:
>>
[snip]
>> >Action [18]
>> > 8x Govern the Unaligned
>> > 2x Graverobbing
>> > 6x Magic of the Smith
>> > 2x Pulse of the Canaille
>>
>> Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards.
>>
>> You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer.
>As someone posted, I *CAN* attempt to equip the Bowl itself, so the
>percentage is higher. Why should my prey attempt to block it if he
>knows that I have decent combat abilities, but no Eagle's Sights to
>block his directed actions?
ummm....how the hell does your prey know this if you're trying to get
the bowl as your first action?
Ec...@mail.ru
X_Ze...@cox-internet.com wrote:
> >> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10.
> >> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl.
>
> You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card and
> 1st action
Marionette. He played five cards that action, and I played only two.
> Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful
> action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into
play
> or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood.
>
> These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more
> into the pipe.
Most of the time I WILL catch the !Malk and regain the blood.
> And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do
> you have?
>
> The same amount as you have bowls. ;)
And the same amount of Magic of the Smiths? :)
> And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and
LinC
> in your hand?
>
> This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 redraws)
> if you have built your deck correctly.
Most of Tournament-Winning Kindred Spirits decks have no more than 5
copies of any stealth card. If you have 5 FN, 5 EI and 5 LinC, what are
your chances to get them ALL in the first 10 cards??? Less than 10%, I
guess.
> >Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey
> >cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you
> >Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh?
>
> Who cares what your prey has? You can't block decks that generate 3+
> stealth then make your block fail and still have a viable offense,
> other than AR or Smiling Jack which are prayerish at best. There is
> not enough room in a 90 card deck.
My general point is that Kindred Spirits deck cannot perform the
demonstrated feats of stealth REGULARLY, as it can use only Elder
Impersonation to avoid blocks.
And my last statement you cited should mean that situation is very
dangerous for !Malks anyway. What if Zagreb played Enhanced Senses and
blocked? (I know there are no Enh.S in my deck, but does !Malk player
know this?)
What if Zagreb didn't attempt to block and just played Deflection? KS
deck just wasted his KS, FN and EI to bleed my prey for 3 at +2
stealth. Yes, I know that bounce was enemy of all bleeders before the
new cards, but the new cards force the bleeder to pull all his
modifiers into the single action, which is very dangerous. Just put
some additional Telepathic Misdirections into my sample deck, and it
will squash any Kindred Spirits deck.
Here's the modified example:
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59
------------------------------------------------------------
4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3
3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3
3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3
2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [18]
8x Govern the Unaligned
2x Graverobbing
6x Magic of the Smith
2x Pulse of the Canaille
Combat [26]
8x Blur
6x Pursuit
12x Theft of Vitae
Equipment [6]
1x Ivory Bow
1x Flamethrower
2x Sniper Rifle
2x Bowl of Convergence
Master [17]
1x Celerity
1x Giant's Blood
2x Information Highway
6x Minion Tap
3x Sudden Reversal
2x Zillah's Valley
2x Channel 10
Reaction [21]
4x Deflection
5x Telepathic Misdirection
8x Second Tradition: Domain
4x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Ally [2]
2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
------------------------------------------------------------
I just replaced one Celerity with an additional Minion Tap, lowered
number of Wakes and Deflections and dumped Fast Reactions in favor of
Telepathic Misdirections.
Now the deck has NINE bounce cards, and Misdirections can be used to
intercept if nobody bleeds heavily. Does anybody want to say that
Kindred Spirits deck has decent chances against it? And remember, this
is NOT a total intercept deck, and it will eventually play bruise &
bleed with Pulses and weapons.
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
Seems like a strange math. Lucas and Anastaszi are 18 pool total. Even
if I had no accelerators (there are four of them) and no Minion Taps
(there were five), I should have 12 pool left. And if I was seriously
bled, I simply won't influence the second vampire without Governs
(there are eight of them).
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Ector wrote:
>
> > No. Two Bowls and several Magics of the Smiths would be enough. I
can
> > even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for
the
> > Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with
> > !Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce
> > and play Tongues.
>
> Right. You can have two bowls and several Magics. So you can give one
minion
> +2 intercept for 1 blood. Which might be contested, stolen, or
destroyed.
> This doesn't strike me as any more effective (less effective, really,
in an
> absolute sense) that replacing all those cards with Sports Bikes and
Mr.
> Winthrops. At leats then, you can have multiple minions with
intercept, to
> avoid getting completely hosed by single minion hosers.
And having one minion with +2 intercept is far better than two minions
with +1.
> > Just look into TWDA. Current Kindred Spirits decks don't use
Sibyl's
> > Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots.
>
> There are, like, 7 !Malk decks in the TWD archive from the time span
that
> Sybil's Tounge was play legal. Of those, only 4 are S+B decks, and
all of
> them are sufficiently mixed crypts such that Sybils Tongue would be
> unreliable, at best. Looking at the TWD archive for evidence of use
of
> Sybil's Tongue is, apparently, not really a good idea.
What? There are non-S&B !Malk decks? Where?
> This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue.
Especially
> if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that
Bowl of
> Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it
> isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to
get it.
> And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some
bleed
> bounce when you need it.
The Bowl would be useful in Kindred Spirits deck, but would you dare to
block a deck with serious combat abilities? Combat decks are obviously
stronger now. And YOU have no means of regaining the blood spent on the
Bowl... So the primary goal of including it is contesting, which
definitely makes the deck weaker.
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> Ec...@mail.ru wrote:
>
> > I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip
it.
> > And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become
> > weaker?
>
> I thought Bowl of Covergence was so powerful as to render S+B decks
> pointless. Given this, how could it possible make your deck weaker to
> include them?
blocking. Bowl and Sybil's Tongues would harm the primary strategy
(bleed at stealth as fast as possible).
> > Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it
provide
> > at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not.
And
> > the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth.
>
> Then they need to change their decks so they can. That is one of the
> wonderful things about CCGs--the strategies keep evolving and
changing, so
> it doesn't become stale. The Bowl might make S+B decks have to tweak
their
> deck design some. How is that bad?
>
> The same thing happened when Archon Investigation entered the game.
Decks
> changed and evolved. How was that bad?
Some decks have the proper tools (i.e. cards) to change, other don't.
As I posted, DOM/OBF decks will survive, as they have Seductions and
Elder Impersonations. Kindred Spirits decks will die, as they have only
Elder Impersonations, and nobody can pack 12 of them.
> > Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6
> > MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge.
>
> 6 MoTS and 2 Bowls aren't going to protect the deck from S+B. You
could just
> have, like, 8 Enhanced Senses and get mostly the same effect without
taking
> an action, without spending blood, and without making a single
vampire a
> target.
The effect would be far from the same. If I get the Bowl, I can block
+2 stealth actions for the rest of the game. If I have Enh.Senses, I
can block ONE +2 stealth action. Even if I manage to torporize the
catched !Malk, there are more.
> > What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less
> > reliable.
>
> Wha? If I have 10 of a transient card in my deck, I'm likely to have
one
> when I need it. That is what we like to call reliable.
Against S&B deck you will need MUCH MORE that one. And you'll never get
more than, say, three of your 10.
> On the other hand,
> having a single piece of unique equipment (that can be blocked,
stolen,
> contested, or destroyed) is incredibly unreliable. Using, as we have
been
> looking at, 2 Bowls and 6 Magics is more reliable. But no more
effective
> than just having 8 Enhanced Senses instead.
But they'll have to find these cards, which requires time, and I can
try to block them.
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
> >draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm
going
> >to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways...
>
> and some people pack 1 info highway and 3 Dreams of the Sphinx. or 2
> info 2 zillahs. or maybe a tomb. why? because the extra infos will be
> dead draws.
card is simple as important to them, as the Bowl is to my deck.
> >OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked
> >only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the
> >action.
>
> umm..or blocked if your neighbour is pretty sure:
> a) you put vast wealth in for a reason
> b) the reason is probably bad news for someone.
But in most cases I'm sure to explain to my prey that:
a) I have enough combat cards to punish him if he blocks, so he's just
going to make my action a Bum's Rush :)
b) I will use Vast Wealth anyway on the next turn.
> > Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the
> >action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try
to
> >equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic
> >Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the
ultra-powerful
> >card.
>
> or, he'd happily play with elder impersonation and let you have your
> silly bowl.
Maybe once. Nobody can afford playing a lot of EI.
> or just bleed you out while you're tapped after taking the vast
wealth
> action.
Please don't tell me that tapped vamp cannot block. My sample deck had
8 Second Traditions and 6 Wakes. Now I dropped two Wakes, but total
number is still 12 :)
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
James Coupe wrote:
> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector
> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
> >My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can
regularly
> >block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use
> >Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much
> >more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having
> >too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus,
I
> >doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable.
>
> Sure, but how many do you pack?
Impersonations, as I simply have no more :)
> Any current deck with Auspex could be using Sport Bike, KRCG and Mr
> Winthrop and get to +2 pretty easily, +3 on the action you use the
KRCG
> on. The Sport Bikes are non-unique, so you can scatter them to taste
in
> your deck knowing they won't contest.[0] You can't contest their
Sport
> Bikes - though you can contest the other two.
You did need a lot of time to find all these cards, and Kindred Spirits
deck had a chance to kill you. It can get past a minion with +1
intercept (i.e. Bike), but not +2 intercept. Now you can fetch your
Bowl quickly, and Kindred Spirits decks won't have time to kill.
> I think concerns about Carlton (re: death of stealth and bleed) are
> *way* over-rated. He's cute, and I think he's a good ally. But he's
> not about to kill stealth and bleed dead. For a start, if a stealth
and
> bleed deck is sensible about it, it can be including other flexible
> actions to taste - Dominate gets some fun stealing actions if you're
> finding allies to be a problem by way of Far Mastery. Oh, and allies
> can't Wake.
Dominate is FAR better than Dementation. Kindred Spirits deck will need
to provide +2 stealth for each action to get past the Charlton or get
one action per turn blocked. Imagine that I have Persia and Dolphin
Black, and my prey has Charlton and Zoe (probably more, but...) I have
two Kindred Spirits, one Lost in Crowds, one Swallowed by the Night and
one Eyes of Chaos (other cards are irrelevant now - they may be
masters, Wakes, Telepathic Misdirections etc).
Without Charlton I should play Kindred Spirits with Doplhin Black (no
Telep. Misdir. from Zoe?), then second Kindred Spirits with Persia +
Eyes of Chaos. Now I should play like this:
a). Kindred Spirits with Dolphin Black (not with Persia, as Charlton is
likely to block, and Persia has inferior Obfuscate). Charlton attempts
to block, I play Lost in Crowds (Persia would require both my precious
stealth cards). My prey refuses to block. Hourrah!!!
b). Now I should decide whether to play Eyes of Chaos. If I don't, I
will bleed only for two this turn, as Persia will be unable to get past
Charlton. If I do, I risk to get Telepathic Misdirection from Zoe. But
I will replace a card, and I may get more stealth... So I play my
Eyes... Damn it, no more stealth!
c). Zoe plays Telepathic Misdirection. Ouch! I've just bled my
grandprey for 4 at +2 stealth, and I cannot bleed anymore...
> Also, any stealth deck can sit down and think "Fuck, what do I do
about
> all those intercept locations?" And when it finds that locations are
> pretty common in the sort of decks it's facing, it can head for
Arson.
> Or Unnatural Disaster, if that floats your boat. If you pick to play
> them, head for the first action. Ignore Channel 10. :)
Again, Kindred Spirits deck cannot limit itself to one action per turn.
How many Arsons do you suggest? Remember, Arson fixes only Channel 10,
not the Bowl, and not Charlton.
>
> Also also, stealth and bleed in many decks has a lot of tricks up its
> sleeves when played cunningly. Head for action modifiers. Let them
tap
> Channel 10 and "waste" it on an action that wasn't using an action
card.
> Then throw down an action modifier when they let it through. Action
> modifiers are extremely useful for such territory.
Just look at the abovementioned example. One Channel 10 can be dealth
with. One Charlton can be passed most of the time. But the whole
package of Bowl + Channel 10 + Charlton is deadly, and ANY deck with
AUS can use it. If you pack Delaying Tactics against voting decks, why
can't you put these cards against all stealth decks, even if you have
no ways to fetch them?
Ector
Ec...@mail.ru
J wrote:
> > Look, it's just a SAMPLE deck to demonstrate new cards usage. I
> placed
> > Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T
> kill
> > the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be
unable
> > to play another Troublemaker :)
>
> Yes, they will be able to play another Troublemaker. Why? Because
> when it is used it goes to your prey.
to play second Troublemaker, but not practically (see below).
> If your prey has got it, and they won't relinquish it, then great,
> contest the troublemaker with them for a bleed of 1 per turn.
> Intercept decks generally don't rake in the pool that much. They
> survive, they don't bloat or get out of control. Therefore, if
you're
> doing them pool damage that they can't prevent (ie can't block or
> flick), it will eventually oust them more often than not.
Ok, so you are my S&B predator. You played the first Troublemaker and
killed my first Bowl. I got the second one. Now you are going to play
the second Troublemaker to contest mine. Will I pay for the contest?
Surely I will, since your Troublemaker is going to destroy my last
Bowl.
Now, is it profitable to you to contest with me? You deal me 1 pool
damage per turn, but you suffer it yourself. And my Bowl is probably
keeping you at bay, while NOTHING protects you from your predator.
> What I think would be of greatest benefit here to Ector is if he
posted
> the deck that he uses most, and then perhaps the 'old heads' of the
> list can possibly help him out.
Well, let's take a well-known deck from TWDA, not just my humble
creation. What about Ben Peal's "Cheesequake"?
CRYPT [avg = 5.25]
1 x Adelaide Davis (4): obf dem aus
1 x Jeremy Talbot (4): obf dem
1 x Persia, the Beautiful Statue (5): DEM obf aus
1 x Evan Klein (5): OBF dem aus pre
1 x Tony (6): DEM AUS obf dom
1 x Dr. Douglas Netchurch (6): OBF AUS dem dom
1 x Yorik (3): dem obf
1 x Claven (4): dem obf aus
1 x Artemis (6): OBF DEM aus cel for
1 x Dolphin Black (6): OBF DEM AUS
1 x Kite (7): DEM AUS obf pre
1 x Korah (7): OBF DEM AUS ani
LIBRARY
1 x Institution Hunting Ground
1 x Muddled Vampire Hunter
1 x The Barrens
1 x The Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper
1 x Anarch Troublemaker
1 x Misdirection
4 x Blood Doll
1 x Life Boon
2 x Sudden Reversal
1 x Auspex
1 x Dementation
1 x Change of Target
8 x Wake with Evening's Freshness
5 x Elder Impersonation
5 x Lost in Crowds
5 x Spying Mission
5 x Cloak the Gathering
5 x Faceless Night
3 x Swallowed by the Night
2 x Domain of Evernight
18 x Kindred Spirits
6 x Confusion
8 x Telepathic Misdirection
3 x Enhanced Senses
1 x The Call