Results of Crusade: Atlanta (22 Nov 97)
LSJ
I had the pleasure of serving as judge for the Crusade: Atlanta
tournament (the last event in the "Cruasde: World" series). Here's a
brief run down of the results of that event:
With just enough VPs to get him into the finals, Danny McGrul emerges
victorious with a Govern the Unaligned/Mask of a Thousand Faces deck,
which is listed below.
Also in the finals were:
David Tatu (who finished second)
Cami Freeman
John Freeman
David Castles
All of the participants were from Atlanta, with the exception of the
Freemans (who drove in from Rock Hill, SC).
The tournament coordinator, Stu Pieloch <stu...@mindspring.com>, is
currently coordinating the Jyhad On-Line tournament as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny's Library: Danny's Crypt:
12 Govern the Unaligned 3 Justine, Elder of Dallas
10 Deflection 2 Agrippina
10 Mask of a Thousand Faces Dimple
7 Cloak the Gathering Duck
6 Dodge Etrius
6 Obedience Laurent de Valois
5 Lost in Crowds Normal
5 Secure Haven Regilio, The Seeker of Akhenaten
5 Wake with Evening's Freshness Tansu Bekir
4 Conditioning
3 Blood Doll
3 Bonding
2 Information Highway
2 Labyrinth
Academic Hunting Ground
Arcane Library
Archon Investigation
Elder Impersonation
Elysium: the Arboretum
Giant's Blood
Major Boon
Slum Hunting Ground
Sudden Reversal
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
Lupo
> Danny's Library: Danny's Crypt:
>
> 12 Govern the Unaligned 3 Justine, Elder of Dallas
> 10 Deflection 2 Agrippina
> 10 Mask of a Thousand Faces Dimple
> 7 Cloak the Gathering Duck
> 6 Dodge Etrius
> 6 Obedience Laurent de Valois
> 5 Lost in Crowds Normal
> 5 Secure Haven Regilio, The Seeker of Akhenaten
> 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness Tansu Bekir
> 4 Conditioning
> 3 Blood Doll
> 3 Bonding
> 2 Information Highway
> 2 Labyrinth
> Academic Hunting Ground
> Arcane Library
> Archon Investigation
> Elder Impersonation
> Elysium: the Arboretum
> Giant's Blood
> Major Boon
> Slum Hunting Ground
> Sudden Reversal
>
Far be it from me to critique tournament players but... Doesn't this
deck seem a tad... Dull? "Bleed" "attempt to block" "stealth" "bleed"
"attempt to block" "steath"... ad infinitum.
Anyone got any houserules regarding Stealth and Bleed? I am thinking of
suggesting no more than say... 10 cards which increase bleed? At the
moment, it's merely frowned upon and I have to put together an even
cheezier S&B deck to show the guy how it feels. *sigh*. We know it
works, you know it works... Why? It's just a game. Have fun!
--
Lupo (Someone who's been on the recieving (and dealing) end of one two
many +6 stealthed, lap topped, Inveraried, Inner-Circled,
Pulse-of-Canailled, unaligned-governing conditionings and really hates
S&B.)
Celt
You said it borther!
I was there and over 50% of the decks were some form of S&B. What
happened to people coming up with creative and imaginative decks? I
for one would like to see more well rounded and challening decks, not
this monotinous one minded rut that a lot of players have gotten into.
No offense intended, it is a good deck, just not my style.
Thanks
Celt
To email me take out the *'s
tir*na*n...@mindspring.com
Lupo <lu...@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks
Celt
tir*na*n...@mindspring.com
To email me remove the two **
PDB6
Lupo wrote:
"Anyone got any houserules regarding Stealth and Bleed? I am thinking of
suggesting no more than say... 10 cards which increase bleed? At the moment,
it's merely frowned upon and I have to put together an even cheezier S&B deck
to show the guy how it feels. *sigh*. We know it works, you know it works...
Why? It's just a game. Have fun!"
Yes. Either play with deflections or build a good Rush combat deck. Both Josh
Duffin and myself looked at the deck that was the winner of Crusade: Atlanta
and immediately thought "Wow. How that deck would have been demolished by any
good combat deck." If there had been a single good rush deck at any of the
games involving that deck, it would have been destroyed. 6 Obediance, 6 Dodge,
and an Elisium simply will not deter a well designed combat deck. The Secure
Havens are handy, but they are unique and killed by the Rampages that Potence
Rushe decks pack. If someone were to drop a Haven Uncovered on Justine,
attacked her, Immortally Grappled her, and beat her into torpor, that deck
would have been just plain over.
Not to say that it wasn't a well designed deck and clever deck, as it was, but
S+B decks are generally very easily put down by a single good Rush deck as
either its predator or prey. S+B decks are historically low on combat defense.
Dodge is useless against decks using Immortal Grapple or Presses or additional
strikes or Psyche!, and Obediance only works if you are untaped/woken and you
can intercept the attack (Haven Uncovered gives you +1 stealth to attack...).
S+B decks are easy to build and generally tend to dominate play circles until
someone either builds a deck with many deflections or someone brings a good
Rush deck to the table. Build a good Rush deck, and kill all your opponents
stealthy vampires, and chortle. There are plenty of good Rush decks posted on
the verious Jyhad web page (try Mark Langsdorf's), or I'm sure we could post
some here if there is intrest.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"Come on baby, papa needs a new Sword of Wounding!"
-Langley
Robert Goudie
[clip S&B Deck]
>
> Far be it from me to critique tournament players but... Doesn't this
> deck seem a tad... Dull? "Bleed" "attempt to block" "stealth" "bleed"
> "attempt to block" "steath"... ad infinitum.
>
> suggesting no more than say... 10 cards which increase bleed? At the
> moment, it's merely frowned upon and I have to put together an even
> cheezier S&B deck to show the guy how it feels. *sigh*. We know it
> works, you know it works... Why? It's just a game. Have fun!
>
Hi Lupo,
The concern you are voicing here is a very common one. Underlying your
complaint is the belief that S&B is too powerful and an almost automatic
winner. You afford the player of such a deck with very little respect
because you feel that he accomplished something very simple.
I believe that S&B is not too powerful. Over the last couple of years
there have been many discussions on this subject. The most common S&B
defenses are:
1. Don't block! With 1/4 of the winning deck being stealth, the
Methuselah might end up with a nastly hand jam. I've used this many
times in tournaments to great effect. I've also seen rookies attempt to
block a massive stealth bleeder on every single action, helping them
cycle their cards.
2. Heavy Intercept. The S&B deck listed was actually a little lighter
on stealth than some other S&B decks.
3. Bleed Bounce. Some form of this is available to most clans. For the
ones lacking it I use major boons and Archon Investigation.
4. **RUSH COMBAT** The S&B deck listed above would have died a horrible
death to a rush combat deck. Look at all the options the combat deck
would have. Immortal Grapple to prevent dodges. The deck had no
maneuvers and no damage prevention. Additional strikes alone would have
killed it.
I don't know what you're playgroup is like Lupo, but in my group when the
meta-game moves us away from combat decks for a time, there is a golden
opportunity for the player who is first to notice the trend and take
advantage of it. I have maybe fifteen decks ready to play at any one
time. I always rotate them. But a short time ago I played the same rush
combat deck over and over again, week-in and week-out. I won every time!
I forced a change in the meta-game. That same deck loses whenever I
play it now because there is so much damn damage prevention and maneuvers
that I can't kill anyone. There is also a massive intercept revival
right now.
All this to say that whenever a deck style is dominant it is because
someone has either consciously or unconsciously found a "hole" in the
prevailing style of play. Being able to analyze what is hot and what is
not is the challenge for the deckbuilder. Eventually, some sort of
equilibrium is reached where decks are more "balanced". Meaning, they
have more of a "little of everything" approach. No one will want to play
a deck that only has one gear because the "anti-deck" to what you're
playing may sit next to you. It becomes a game of the luck of seating.
At least with a balanced deck you'll have some options in your hand.
-Robert Goudie
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Alexander Racher
Lupo wrote:
> Far be it from me to critique tournament players but... Doesn't this
> deck seem a tad... Dull? "Bleed" "attempt to block" "stealth" "bleed"
> "attempt to block" "steath"... ad infinitum.
>
> Anyone got any houserules regarding Stealth and Bleed? I am thinking of
> suggesting no more than say... 10 cards which increase bleed? At the
> moment, it's merely frowned upon and I have to put together an even
> cheezier S&B deck to show the guy how it feels. *sigh*. We know it
> works, you know it works... Why? It's just a game. Have fun!
>
> --
> Lupo (Someone who's been on the recieving (and dealing) end of one two
> many +6 stealthed, lap topped, Inveraried, Inner-Circled,
> Pulse-of-Canailled, unaligned-governing conditionings and really hates
> S&B.)
Hi Lupo!
In my group (especially in our league) the phenomenon stealth and bleed also
caused much discussion.
We play (as mentioned) in a league in our club and in private rounds, where
the decks are "friendly" , i.e. fewer bleeding cards, less stealth for bleed
and fewer vote pushing decks. So combat decks are very often seen in a
friends-game.
In our league we use all the nasty cards and styles as long the bring
success.
I started playing in the league in 1996 (only V:TES-Basic and Dark
Souvereigns) and my first deck (a birthday present) was called SNEAKERS.
It consisted of many small (max. cap. 3) vamps mostly with obfuscate and/or
dominate. My library was full of stealth and bledding cards, some dodges,
Elysium, Information Highway ...
It was quite successfull, at least in the beginning, although I was on of the
least experienced players.
As fast as my position got better as many other gamers (mostly those who had
problems with loosing at all) got angry.
I missed the final because I had most powerful blood-support deck as my
predator (Toreadors with Masika...).
I continued playing it in the beginning of the next season but the deck got
boring so I changed to another one. Apart from this, many players copied my
deck, mostly those who most messed about me in the previous season.
Now a classical S&B deck with small vamps isn´t really successful any more
(Many deflection cards, Archon Investigations, Muddled Vamp. Hunters against
small vamps, ...in league-decks).
To come to an end, I think I can be happy to be able to play in
friends-games, so I haven´t to bother about such decks. FUN RULEZ !!!!
Xandl from Austria
:-O
Danny McGurl
Well, as the winner of the Atlanta Crusade, I'd like to agree with most
of the
complaints about my winning Deck. It's not the most interesting one
ever
and it has it problems against many of the deck combinations listed, but
I'd
like to address at least a few of the points listed.
But first, I'd like to give Dave Castles (one of the other players in
the finals)
for idea for the deck design that I played.
> 1. Don't block! With 1/4 of the winning deck being stealth, the
> Methuselah might end up with a nastly hand jam. I've used this many
> times in tournaments to great effect. I've also seen rookies attempt
> to
> block a massive stealth bleeder on every single action, helping them
> cycle their cards.
Part of the reason that I designed the deck as I did was to avoid the
hand jam problem.
The deck is designed to be able to use a fair amount of its cards
regardless of whether
people blocked or not. Mask is a great card because you can cycle them
without
using stealth.
> 2. Heavy Intercept. The S&B deck listed was actually a little
> lighter
> on stealth than some other S&B decks.
Might have worked, but my gaming group has never had a lot of luck with
thehigh intercept decks. Unless it is intercept from retainers, you
have to hold a
fair amount of intercept cards at any time and then you have to worry
about
what to do when you intercept. If it's retainer/permanent based
intercept it
will be pretty slow.
> 3. Bleed Bounce. Some form of this is available to most clans. For
> the
> ones lacking it I use major boons and Archon Investigation.
My prey had some reasonable amount of bouncing, but had the problem
thatthey had to be able to deflect both me and the bleed deck to my
right. When
I realized that my RHO had a bleed deck, I kepy my hand cycled to have a
lot of deflections handy. As for Archon Investigations, part of the
plan was to
only have wennie vamps do the actual bleed, so it would expensive for
them to
burn the vamp.
> 4. **RUSH COMBAT** The S&B deck listed above would have died a
> horrible
> death to a rush combat deck. Look at all the options the combat deck
>
> would have. Immortal Grapple to prevent dodges. The deck had no
> maneuvers and no damage prevention. Additional strikes alone would
> have
> killed it.
Well, I did have the Secure Havens in there to try to protect Justine,
and the
obediences, dodges and the Elysium. You really have to make a trade
off.
Each combat prevention card is one less bleed modifier, deflection or
stealth card...
All in all, I found myself wishing I'd brought any kind of vote deck to
the table. It
would have cleaned up!
Thanks for Stu and LSJ for a great tourney!
> -Robert Goudie