Playing Outside the Box (Little Bit Long)
Tobias
> "Ped Xing" <ped_...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > does anyone out there find that some
> > clans more than others have more of a psychological impact?
>
> This will of course always depend on what kind of deck *I* am playing with,
> but in general:
<snip previously responded types>
> !Malkavian -- Noal has a really good one but other than that not very scary.
> I don't usually play with decks that are very vulnerable to Derange.
Generally, nasty, unpredictable decks, with a good SB core, mostly.
Coma is a surprise, Derange just a headache.
> Nagaraja -- Well, Le Dinh Tho scares me... but then I think we reached
> consensus that he sucks right Aaron? :)
Le Dinh Tho just begs to be beat into a pulp - but he can be a nasty
tool.
> Nosferatu/!Nosferatu -- Not usually very scary. I should be afraid of them
> but mostly they're less frightening than pure Potence.
Hmmm I find Nossie princes a handful - bloating, voting, and often
some bruising as well.
> Ravnos -- I am very afraid of Sensory Deprivation. That's about it. Like the
> Assamites I generally see them mess up a few vampires and then poof they're
> ousted. But I'm always afraid of being one of their chew-toys prior to that
> happening.
Hmmm, Week of Nightmares and Draba make Ravnos a tough nut. I hate
them when they sit next to me (as often seems to happen).
> Salubri -- Not frightening at all.
I've seen some nice use of Salubri in decks, but they are generally an
addition. Hate the marionette - daring the dawn constructions, though.
> !Salubri -- Do people actually play these guys?
Apparently there are some decks with Blessing of the Name put to good
use. Just wait till CW. Also, I still think a Blissful agony
(superior) deck could be nasty.
> Samedi -- Who?
These guys will take some time to come into their own. Until the
meantime, just block the action to equip with Soul Gem.
> Toreador/!Toreador -- I don't think I've ever really had much fear of these
> guys. Unless they start getting weapons and then I sweat a little. I hope
> they get better with Concealed Weapon's changes.
I used to laugh at them, until I had a Alexandra/Villon deck as
predator a while ago. Still, they're not in my top thing to fear list.
> Tremere/!Tremere -- Thus far, I have not been afraid of them. I suspect that
> after Camarilla Edition comes out I will learn to fear them. It looks like
> Thaumaturgy is going to be much more deadly than it has been.
Yes, the evolution will be interesting. Till then, I do not fear them.
> True Brujah -- Haven't seen too much of them. They have some neat tricks and
> seem to be pretty strong from recent tourney reports. But I have yet to be
> seriously threatened by a Trujah deck.
Likewise.
> Tzimisce -- I swear I get nervous every time I see that orangey-looking
> background come out of someone's uncontrolled region. No matter where they
> are on the table, at some point at least one of my vampires is going to be
> twisted into a fucking pretzel or something. VERY VERY SCARY!
Tzimisce are nasty customers. Definately a 'heads up' experience when
they hit the table.
> Ventrue -- Well, they're good at what they do but they're also very
> predictable for the most part. I'm not usually afraid of them though I do
> give them the respect they deserve.
Hostile takeover will be a bit less harsh, but Arika and cohorts make
Ventrue a handful. Smart people will also pack fortitude soak, so they
can be hard to destroy.
> !Ventrue -- Not really that threatening. Like the City Gangrel, their
> disciplines just don't mesh all that well to be a threat. I've seen some
> fairly good !Ventrue decks but mostly they do not scare me. Very
> predictable.
I know I should be wary of !ven vote decks, but not seen any in
opposition yet.
Grtz.
Tobias
Ped Xing
To a certain extent I ask this based on the CE reprint/update of the
Monocle of Clarity, which is somewhat confusing--you can't lie but you
aren't bound by your answer(I ask then, what's the point?)
Or, in general if a player asks me a question and my answer is an
outright lie, is that acceptable? (note that I'm not asking if it's
dishonest or not, it's by definition dishonest.)
Also, is directly making threats of retaliation/retribution acceptable
and/or legal? Can I say "Fatima is bums-rushing your sorry butt if you
don't stop bleeding me for a round?" Can I do this even if I don't
have the bums rush (see bluffing above)?
In general is there a strategy when offering a deal to another player?
Is there a presumption in deal making that the deal will be eventually
broken? Are there players out there who never break deals? How do you
avoid deal making that comes across as collusion? Or, more
specifically, how do you avoid collusion but maximize the effects of
the deal? I ask this since to me it seems like every really good deal
I have seen (ie: been on the receiving end outside of the dealmakers)
essentially splits up the table. Is it even legal to split the table?
Can two players say, "let's work together, don't bleed me and I'll
speed up and oust my prey, grand-prey, and great-grand-prey and then
withdraw and give you the table win?" (That to me seems like cheating,
but that's why I am asking).
What are some of your experiences with the card Succubus Club? It
seems like this is a hated card on these boards, but it never seemed
too fearsome to me. I include it in an Assamite rush deck I play to
gain pool/favors for contract killings, which is more of a concept and
flavor thing... But everyone else on threads here despises it. Is this
because of the card's potential for abuse? How does it impact
deal-making in the games it's played?
Thanks again,
Ped Xing
Derek Ray
ped_...@hotmail.com (Ped Xing) mumbled something about:
>Ok so to follow up, is bluffing acceptable and/or legal?
AND recommended.
(the "did you lie last game?" tip in ELDB is mine)
>To a certain extent I ask this based on the CE reprint/update of the
>Monocle of Clarity, which is somewhat confusing--you can't lie but you
>aren't bound by your answer(I ask then, what's the point?)
You aren't bound by answers about the future.
However, if I ask "Do you have any form of bleed bounce in hand?", you
still must tell the truth, as that's about the present.
>Or, in general if a player asks me a question and my answer is an
>outright lie, is that acceptable? (note that I'm not asking if it's
>dishonest or not, it's by definition dishonest.)
Again, it's recommended.
>Also, is directly making threats of retaliation/retribution acceptable
>and/or legal? Can I say "Fatima is bums-rushing your sorry butt if you
>don't stop bleeding me for a round?" Can I do this even if I don't
>have the bums rush (see bluffing above)?
Sure. Don't see why not. In fact, I prefer to do it when I don't have
the Bum's Rush, as otherwise it's probably better for me to just go
ahead and do it.
>In general is there a strategy when offering a deal to another player?
Lie, misdirect, and obfuscate.
>Is there a presumption in deal making that the deal will be eventually
>broken? Are there players out there who never break deals? How do you
There is currently a presumption that the deal will be stuck to in the
vast majority of cases. There are players who never break deals. These
players are becoming more rare, but in general most deals will be kept
unless a REALLY GOOD OPPORTUNITY comes up.
Foolish deals will be broken. Saying "You don't bleed me for a turn,
and I don't Rush Ozmo and Didi this turn", tapping out, and influencing
4 pool to an uncontrolled vampire who DOESN'T come out strikes me as one
of the more suicidal deals to make.
>avoid deal making that comes across as collusion? Or, more
>specifically, how do you avoid collusion but maximize the effects of
>the deal? I ask this since to me it seems like every really good deal
>I have seen (ie: been on the receiving end outside of the dealmakers)
>essentially splits up the table. Is it even legal to split the table?
No.
>Can two players say, "let's work together, don't bleed me and I'll
>speed up and oust my prey, grand-prey, and great-grand-prey and then
>withdraw and give you the table win?" (That to me seems like cheating,
>but that's why I am asking).
It was legal at one point -- these days, the VEKN tournament rules state
(succinctly paraphrased) that you must attempt to win the game.
In your example, two misconceptions are made; first, the person offering
the deal would get the table win, since he would have 3 VP. second, the
person accepting such a deal wouldn't be allowed to, since he by
definition gives up any chance of winning the game.
>What are some of your experiences with the card Succubus Club? It
Nothing so vile as the LA players have experienced, myself, but I can
see where some awfully bad shit could happen.
>seems like this is a hated card on these boards, but it never seemed
>too fearsome to me. I include it in an Assamite rush deck I play to
>gain pool/favors for contract killings, which is more of a concept and
>flavor thing... But everyone else on threads here despises it. Is this
>because of the card's potential for abuse? How does it impact
>deal-making in the games it's played?
It is because of the card's potential for abuse, yes. You might want to
search Google for threads related to it, as I haven't personally seen
any of the same abuse the LA crowd has.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Noal McDonald
To be honest, you're better off if you don't ever respond to James Coupe.
While he may be better versed in the rules than most, he tends to be an
irritating dink more interested in arguing semantics of the phrasing used
rather than discuss what the author was obviously intending to
communicate. If you want to know how to be a better card player, there
are far better people to discuss the issue with.
There are people that are very good at building decks and those that
are very good at playing the game, including the psychological aspect
of it. The type of decks and psychology used at a table vary based on
local metagame.
The L.A. game seems to favor long term deals for splitting table VPs,
while the Michigan/Ohio games seem to favor deals that last for a
single turn, two at most. Washington D.C. players seem willing to
break deals if it suits them (which I haven't actually witnessed) while
the players from Montreal found that to be a very alien concept when
I talked to them about it. I know some regions don't favor making deals
at all...although I couldn't tell you which ones.
To be honest, experience will be your best teacher. Try different things
to see what works for you best. Best of luck to you.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
Top Posting and Loving It Prince of Metro Detroit
ped_...@hotmail.com (Ped Xing) wrote:
>
> James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
> > Quote the bit, respond to that bit. Easy, huh?
>
> Great, now that we have all established that you can quote and
> respond, why not drop the bit we all obviously agree on and quote and
> respond to the other bits?
>
> James, I see your posts all over this board (and even beleive I have
> read some excellent articles by you on thelasombra's website, yes?) so
> I would genuinely appreciate your responses to the rest of my
> questions. Obviously you have a helluva lot more experience playing
> the game than I do. I didn't want this thread to be a semantics
> nitpicking phallus-comparison festival (but hey it's a newsgroup,
> maybe I had false expections?) I openly acknowledge that you have the
> bigger VTES willy, and apologize if the misunderstanding I created
> facilitated flacidity. Now whip it out (figuratively, please) and tell
> me how I can be a better player.
>
> Thanks,
> -Ped Xing
Noal McDonald
> Giovanni -- Well, I know they'll be concentrating on DOM/NEC because I
> rarely see Giovanni use Potence and therefore I am usually worried about
> being bled unblockably. The tricks they can pull do not usually frighten me
> though Noal's Raped, Raved and Raised (or something to that effect) is
> extremely vicious. It's also fun to watch though. When your vampires are
> being stolen and then burned as they bleed you out... well, sure it's scary
> but it's also fucking hilarious.
The name of the deck is "Raped, Raved and Razed." Razed means to be
burned to the ground and happens to fit the name of the deck quite well.
After I removed the Puppetteer angle, I found it flowed much better and
enjoyed greater success. It may see rotation in my tournament decks.
I've also thought about reviving the Uriah Winter, Trojan Horse angle.
Now that more Giovanni have Thamauturgy, it'll be easier to nail him
in place with Seeds.
> !Malkavian -- Noal has a really good one but other than that not very scary.
> I don't usually play with decks that are very vulnerable to Derange.
Well, the days of my Derange deck are over. Not only is the card being
reprinted in a new form, but my deck didn't enjoy much success at GenCon.
Had much worse card flow in three games than I ever recall happening.
Oh well.
> Nosferatu/!Nosferatu -- Not usually very scary. I should be afraid of them
> but mostly they're less frightening than pure Potence.
The !Nos are most frightening when you hear the sound of lots of bicycle
bells coming from your right. *grin*
Thanks for the kind words, Wes.
Regards,
Noal
Peter Oh
> The L.A. game seems to favor long term deals for splitting table VPs,
> while the Michigan/Ohio games seem to favor deals that last for a
> single turn, two at most. Washington D.C. players seem willing to
> break deals if it suits them (which I haven't actually witnessed) while
> the players from Montreal found that to be a very alien concept when
> I talked to them about it. I know some regions don't favor making deals
> at all...although I couldn't tell you which ones.
>
Has the reputation of D.C. players really degraded that badly? We're decent
folk, I promise! Sadly, I guess that's all in theme with our locale given
the politicians and such 'round here.
I know I have very few qualms about breaking deals, especially when they are
with my prey and I'm within ousting distance. Pretty sure that everyone in
D.C. understands that in game morals are totally separate from out of game
morals, otherwise we would have all decided that we hate Colin Riggs a long
time ago. :-)
Peteo
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