(LSJ) Heidleburg and Diablerie - Dreams of the Sphinx Questions
Ramsteiner
A question came up that I am unable to answer. Additionally, I am
unsure as to what the end result was of the "Atomic" Diablerie and
Blood Hunt ruling last year and whether or not it has any bearing on
the below question.
Minion 1 is in combat with acting Minion 2.
Minion 1 sends Minion 2 to torpor with a Wooden Stake.
Minion 1 plays Anathema to diablerize Minion 2 prior to combat's end
and regains the Wooden Stake.
Can the player controlling Minion 1 use Heidleburg Castle to move the
Wooden Stake to another controlled minion prior to the automatic Blood
Hunt Referendum being called.
As the online rules state that the BH referendum is not an action and
an automatic occurance after a successful diablerie, I am not entirely
certain as to whether or not the action that precipitated the combat
has ended or not to allow the use of Heidleburg.
I currently lean toward the answer of - No, Heidleburg can not be used
to move the Wooden Stake (or anything else) just prior to the Blood
Hunt Referendum - mainly due to the BH Referendum not being an action
and Heidleburg is only allowed between actions.
Question 2
During a recent tournament I noticed a player tap their Dreams of the
Sphinx at the beginning of another player's turn to increase their
hand size. Is this legal? I have looked at the card and it does not
state anything to indicate that the card must be used only during your
turn, but...
If it is legal, does the player lose the increased hand size at the
end of the other player's turn or do you lose the increased hand size
at the end of your turn?
Thanks
Michael Eichler
Prince of Spangdahlem
Timlagor
> Minion 1 is in combat with acting Minion 2.
> Minion 1 sends Minion 2 to torpor with a Wooden Stake.
> Minion 1 plays Anathema to diablerize Minion 2 prior to combat's end
> and regains the Wooden Stake.
Amaranth I presume.
> Can the player controlling Minion 1 use Heidleburg Castle to move the
> Wooden Stake to another controlled minion prior to the automatic Blood
> Hunt Referendum being called.
No. The BH is part of the diablerie (amaranth) resolution. The whole things
happens within the combat, which in turn happens within Minion 1's action
(blocked or toherwise entering combat with Minion 2)
> As the online rules state that the BH referendum is not an action and
> an automatic occurance after a successful diablerie, I am not entirely
> certain as to whether or not the action that precipitated the combat
> has ended or not to allow the use of Heidleburg.
The action has not ended.
> I currently lean toward the answer of - No, Heidleburg can not be used
> to move the Wooden Stake (or anything else) just prior to the Blood
> Hunt Referendum - mainly due to the BH Referendum not being an action
> and Heidleburg is only allowed between actions.
Not because it isn't an action but because it happens *within* an action -
if it was just an effect happening outside any action, I believe you could
use Heidelberg.
> Question 2
> During a recent tournament I noticed a player tap their Dreams of the
> Sphinx at the beginning of another player's turn to increase their
> hand size. Is this legal? I have looked at the card and it does not
> state anything to indicate that the card must be used only during your
> turn, but...
I can't see any reason why not.
> If it is legal, does the player lose the increased hand size at the
> end of the other player's turn or do you lose the increased hand size
> at the end of your turn?
end of the *current turn* - it doesn't matter whose turn that is. (iow other
player's)
(no confusing foreign words in this one ;-)
LSJ
>>Question 1
>>Minion 1 is in combat with acting Minion 2.
>>Minion 1 sends Minion 2 to torpor with a Wooden Stake.
>>Minion 1 plays Anathema to diablerize Minion 2 prior to combat's end
>>and regains the Wooden Stake.
> Amaranth I presume.
>
>>Can the player controlling Minion 1 use Heidleburg Castle to move the
>>Wooden Stake to another controlled minion prior to the automatic Blood
>>Hunt Referendum being called.
>
> No. The BH is part of the diablerie (amaranth) resolution. The whole things
The BH happens in sequence - it follows immediately after the diablerie.
> happens within the combat, which in turn happens within Minion 1's action
> (blocked or toherwise entering combat with Minion 2)
Correct.
>>As the online rules state that the BH referendum is not an action and
>>an automatic occurance after a successful diablerie, I am not entirely
>>certain as to whether or not the action that precipitated the combat
>>has ended or not to allow the use of Heidleburg.
> The action has not ended.
Correct.
>>Question 2
>>During a recent tournament I noticed a player tap their Dreams of the
>>Sphinx at the beginning of another player's turn to increase their
>>hand size. Is this legal? I have looked at the card and it does not
>>state anything to indicate that the card must be used only during your
>>turn, but...
> I can't see any reason why not.
It is legal, correct.
>>If it is legal, does the player lose the increased hand size at the
>>end of the other player's turn or do you lose the increased hand size
>>at the end of your turn?
>
> end of the *current turn* - it doesn't matter whose turn that is. (iow other
> player's)
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Timlagor
>>>Wooden Stake to another controlled minion prior to the automatic Blood
>>>Hunt Referendum being called.
>>
>> No. The BH is part of the diablerie (amaranth) resolution. The whole things
>
> The BH happens in sequence - it follows immediately after the diablerie.
I'm glad I answered that then. Is the BH not one of the steps that is part
of the diablerie resolution? (Victim burns, Diablerist gets
blood/equipment/skill, BH referendum)
If not, is there any way the distinction could matter?
LSJ
No. See 6.5.5 for the steps that are part of the diablerie resolution.
> If not, is there any way the distinction could matter?
Yes.
Ritual of the Bitter Rose, for example.
Timlagor
>> of the diablerie resolution? (Victim burns, Diablerist gets
>> blood/equipment/skill, BH referendum)
>
> No. See 6.5.5 for the steps that are part of the diablerie resolution.
>
>> If not, is there any way the distinction could matter?
>
> Yes.
> Ritual of the Bitter Rose, for example.
So the Diableie happens. Then the Combat ends *before* the BH referendum but
the action does not end until after thee referendum and BH if the Ref
passes?
LSJ
>>>I'm glad I answered that then. Is the BH not one of the steps that is part
>>>of the diablerie resolution? (Victim burns, Diablerist gets
>>>blood/equipment/skill, BH referendum)
>>
>>No. See 6.5.5 for the steps that are part of the diablerie resolution.
> So the Diableie happens. Then the Combat ends *before* the BH referendum but
> the action does not end until after thee referendum and BH if the Ref
> passes?
No. The BH referendum is conducted after diablerie, before combat ends (in the
case of Amaranth).
reyda
:: Timlagor wrote:
::::: I'm glad I answered that then. Is the BH not one of the steps
::::: that is part of the diablerie resolution? (Victim burns,
::::: Diablerist gets blood/equipment/skill, BH referendum)
::::
:::: No. See 6.5.5 for the steps that are part of the diablerie
:::: resolution.
::
::: So the Diableie happens. Then the Combat ends *before* the BH
::: referendum but the action does not end until after thee
::: referendum and BH if the Ref passes?
::
:: No. The BH referendum is conducted after diablerie, before combat
:: ends (in the case of Amaranth).
yeah... so, in the middle of the fight, at the moment you kill and destroy
your opponent, a bunch of angry justicars just teleport in front of you and
ask who's your daddy... Can't believe it...
LSJ
> yeah... so, in the middle of the fight, at the moment you kill and destroy
... middle? Sounds like the end of the fight, to me.
> your opponent, a bunch of angry justicars just teleport in front of you and
> ask who's your daddy... Can't believe it...
Is this the only instance of backstory incongruity that you've discovered?
XZealot
> yeah... so, in the middle of the fight, at the moment you kill and destroy
> your opponent, a bunch of angry justicars just teleport in front of you
and
> ask who's your daddy... Can't believe it...
I have always pictured a game of VTES as going over the span of several
years (20-200). It would not be unlikely that if you had a bloodhunt called
upon you from the Top of the Camrilla to the whole sect, that you would last
more than one year.
Average VTES game= 12 turns
Average VTES timescale 20 to 200 years
Average VTES 12= more than one year of time
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
reyda
:: reyda wrote:
::: yeah... so, in the middle of the fight, at the moment you kill
::: and destroy
::
:: ... middle? Sounds like the end of the fight, to me.
it is still combat by the rules, so it's effectively "in the middle of the
fight".
::: your opponent, a bunch of angry justicars just teleport in front
::: of you and ask who's your daddy... Can't believe it...
::
:: Is this the only instance of backstory incongruity that you've
:: discovered?
no but this is hudge =)
clever suggestion : why not postpone *all* the bloodhunts referendums at the
end (discard phase) of the current turn ? this would make sense and be quite
doable... This would reflect the small amount of time a vampire have before
he is judged. You could banish your own vampire to save him, or make him
commit diablerie again before the death sentence... It would still be
compatible with all the "anti diablerie" master cards already printed, and
require a small modification in the rulebook.
What do you all think about it ?
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
>>>>I'm glad I answered that then. Is the BH not one of the steps that is part
>>>>of the diablerie resolution? (Victim burns, Diablerist gets
>>>>blood/equipment/skill, BH referendum)
>>>
>>>No. See 6.5.5 for the steps that are part of the diablerie resolution.
>
>> So the Diableie happens. Then the Combat ends *before* the BH referendum but
>> the action does not end until after thee referendum and BH if the Ref
>> passes?
>
> No. The BH referendum is conducted after diablerie, before combat ends (in the
> case of Amaranth).
Maybe I'm being dense... but how does this affect Ritual of the Bitter Rose?
Is combat suspended during the diablerie resolution?
Timlagor
and the actual bruning at the end. Banishing shouldn't prevent burning
though -joining the Sabbat or Anarchs might though....
I rather doubt it's going to happen as, interesting though it would be, it
would have far-reaching consequences (not all of which youcould necessarily
predict) and isn't necessary (for gameplay). It would prrbably make
diablerie too good too -you could diablerise a bunch and then heidleberg all
the stuff off.
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> :: reyda wrote:
> ::: yeah... so, in the middle of the fight, at the moment you kill
> ::: and destroy
> ::
> :: ... middle? Sounds like the end of the fight, to me.
>
> it is still combat by the rules, so it's effectively "in the middle of the
> fight".
If everything in combat is in the middle of combat, sure.
But then "the middle of" is just superfluous.
> ::: your opponent, a bunch of angry justicars just teleport in front
> ::: of you and ask who's your daddy... Can't believe it...
> ::
> :: Is this the only instance of backstory incongruity that you've
> :: discovered?
>
> no but this is hudge =)
Not really that huge.
> clever suggestion : why not postpone *all* the bloodhunts referendums at the
> end (discard phase) of the current turn ? this would make sense and be quite
> doable... This would reflect the small amount of time a vampire have before
> he is judged. You could banish your own vampire to save him, or make him
> commit diablerie again before the death sentence... It would still be
> compatible with all the "anti diablerie" master cards already printed, and
> require a small modification in the rulebook.
> What do you all think about it ?
Unecessary complication. Empowering for repeat-action diablerists.
LSJ
RotBR can be played by the diablerist in combat before the diablerist is
burned by the Blood Hunt.
> Is combat suspended during the diablerie resolution?
The Diablerie is done in combat via the play and resolution of the Amaranth card.
The Blood Hunt referendum is conducted in isolation (effectively the same
as "combat is suspended during the Blood Hunt referendum).
Timlagor
>
> RotBR can be played by the diablerist in combat before the diablerist is
> burned by the Blood Hunt.
>
>> Is combat suspended during the diablerie resolution?
>
> The Diablerie is done in combat via the play and resolution of the Amaranth card.
>
> The Blood Hunt referendum is conducted in isolation (effectively the same
> as "combat is suspended during the Blood Hunt referendum).
So the distinction has no impact on RotBR. If combat was suspended then
RotBR could not be played. Anyway it doesn't really matter -I was jsut
wondering if there was anythign taht made the distinction important ;-)
LSJ
>>>Maybe I'm being dense... but how does this affect Ritual of the Bitter Rose?
>>
>>RotBR can be played by the diablerist in combat before the diablerist is
>>burned by the Blood Hunt.
> So the distinction has no impact on RotBR. If combat was suspended then
> RotBR could not be played. Anyway it doesn't really matter -I was jsut
> wondering if there was anythign taht made the distinction important ;-)
What distinction are you referring to?
The one for which the question of "what difference does that make?" was
answered with "RotBR"?
(That is, the distinction of handling the Blood Hunt referendum after
the diablerie instead of as a part of the diablerie.)
If so, then it does matter for RotBR. If the BH referendum were part
of the diablerie, then if a Blood Hunt is called on the diablerist
RotBR cannot be played (burned vampires cannot play cards).
As it is, the diablerist can play RotBR before the referendum is
conducted.
If some other distinction is on your mind, please state the distinction.
Timlagor
> answered with "RotBR"?
>
> (That is, the distinction of handling the Blood Hunt referendum after
> the diablerie instead of as a part of the diablerie.)
>
> If so, then it does matter for RotBR. If the BH referendum were part
> of the diablerie, then if a Blood Hunt is called on the diablerist
> RotBR cannot be played (burned vampires cannot play cards).
> As it is, the diablerist can play RotBR before the referendum is
> conducted.
>
> If some other distinction is on your mind, please state the distinction.
That's the one. So RotBR can't be played during resolution of the diablerie?
Or indeed after it is declared successful but before it resolves? (only
after resolution but before BH?)
LSJ
> That's the one. So RotBR can't be played during resolution of the diablerie?
No. There is no interrupt stack for diablerie.
You may play effects before or after doing the diablerie.
> Or indeed after it is declared successful but before it resolves? (only
> after resolution but before BH?)
I'm not sure what you mean by "declared successful."
RotBR can only be played after the diablerie in question, though.
Ramsteiner
> Timlagor wrote:
> >>Question 1
> >>Minion 1 is in combat with acting Minion 2.
> >>Minion 1 sends Minion 2 to torpor with a Wooden Stake.
> >>Minion 1 plays Anathema to diablerize Minion 2 prior to combat's end
> >>and regains the Wooden Stake.
> > Amaranth I presume.
My error. Yes, you are correct.
Thank you for the clarification.