[LSJ] Flicking Bleeds
Juggernaut1981
I have previously, in tournaments, had ruled that Flicks cannot be
played once you begin to remove pool even if modifiers are later
played.
I understand the base situation is that a player can react to any
action modifier. But is there a point where they can declare they are
not flicking a bleed that cannot be retracted (like the No Blocks
point)
JH
You've ruled wrong. When we get to phase where no Deflections can be
played, no action modifiers to increase the bleed can be played
either. Not flicking is not a binding decision. Not flicking is not a
decision in itself, it's more like declaring "I'll pass", which always
leaves a window to play additional reactions after something changes
the situation.
John Flournoy
As noted elsewhere - the 'I am done making block attempts' is a
binding decision, that doesn't prevent further modifiers.
There is no 'decide if you are redirecting a bleed' step in the rules.
In fact, if the acting player has let it get to the 'remove pool'
stage, they actually cannot then add another modifier to it.
Because the sequencing is this (once blocks have been declined):
1) Acting player plays any and all modifiers he wants to. Then passes
priority.
2) Reacting player either a) passes or b) plays a single reaction
(including bounce).
If 2a), then both players have passed, neither player can play further
modifiers or reactions and it resolves.
If 2b), then priority passes back to the acting player; go to 1)
again.
So if the acting player says "do you bounce it", he must be passing
priority to the next player; if that person says "no", they do not get
to then go back and play more bleed-increasing action modifiers,
because we're in an "all-pass" (assuming no other player wants to
react either.)
(LSJ addresses this in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/baa358cfa16945c3/e489b6a5a3fcbf6?q=pass+modify+bounce+author:lsj#0e489b6a5a3fcbf6)
-John Flournoy
Dasein
This is a silly question, and one which gets asked too many times. It
revolves around the fact that people seem to think of "reaching for
pool" or "picking up pool counters" as some kind of game event. It is
not and never has been.
The fundamental concept is priority. If someone is acting, they have
priority. If they do nothing and pass priority, their prey has
priority. If they do nothing and pass priority, other players receive
priority (in case someone wants to Eagle Sight or Folderol or
whatever). If nobody does anything with that priority, that's it.
Bleed resolves. (or block resolves, or whatever is currently
happening).
E.g.
acting: "I bleed you."
prey: "Not blocking. Anybody else blocking? No? Ok, action is
unblocked."
acting: "ok not playing anything." (here he has *passed priority*)
prey: "not playing anything." (if you want to be proper you should
then check if any other players are playing reaction cards but it is
extremely rare especially after blocks are resolved)
Bang! Action resolves. Nobody gets to do squat. Nobody gets to pump,
nobody gets to flick.
"Reaching for pool" or "picking up counters" is completely irrelevant.
What is relevant is whether people have A) played cards or B) not
played cards. If you pass priority, you are saying "I am not playing
any cards." If nobody else does, you don't then get to. If you have
cards you want to play, play them.
In the above scenario, the prey "reaching for pool" doesn't reset
priority to the acting player, allowing them to play a conditioning.
If he had a conditioning he wanted to play, he should have played it.
If he is "fishing" or "searching" for a flick to see whether to pump
or not, and the player doesn't play any reaction cards, too bad. No
pump for you.
Juggernaut1981
JH, not to sound rude, but I'd like to hear from LSJ on this.
XZealot
>
> I have previously, in tournaments, had ruled that Flicks cannot be
> played once you begin to remove pool even if modifiers are later
> played.
You have ruled wrong.
If action modifiers can be played then the action has not resolved,
and reactions may be played.
Juggernaut1981
I didn't rule this myself, others made this ruling.
I want confirmation from LSJ, thanks.
XZealot
The way you wrote it was "I have <edit> had ruled that Flicks cannot
be played...", which makes it look like you are the one doing the
ruling.
Juggernaut1981
It's okay Norm, not offended. Got other people to get angry at, like
the local phone company.
Eliseu Angelo
IMHO if you are removing pool and other player decides to do something
about it then the action has changed... if they modified the action
then you can react to it.
If your predator/player bleeding you, etc, decides to play a AM to
suck more pool, then you can bounce, unless if you refused to do so
for that action.
If someone else decides to mess with the action with Anneke, or
someother minion with folderol, eagle sight, you are not binded to
remove pool. You started to do so based on your hand, you cannot
evaluate all the variables on the table (you may try).
Now if I ask how much and get the answer "only one for now", and I say
"in that case I will not deflect", its for the bleed of one, not for
something different...
and if I start to remove the counters and cannot flick the bleed, then
its only fair that the other player cannot play action modifiers as
well...
Dasein
He may not reply, because the original question doesn't even make
sense from a rules point of view. As I stated above, there are no VTES
rules regarding what does or does not happen upon the event of
"reaching for pool counters" or "touching / picking up pool counters",
because those are not described game events; more specifically, there
are no rules around those events. There ARE rules around priority and
the passing of priority. If you ask a question around that then he
might answer, but once you understand that it is in fact all about
priority and the passing thereof, not about whether your hand is or is
not touching pool counters, you probably don't need to ask the
question.
ira...@gmail.com
Perhaps the case that you're describing is this:
Acting Meth bleeds for 1.
Defending Meth says "no blocks."
Acting Meth says "no modifiers."
Defending Meth reaches for pool and is in the process of putting it in
the blood bank.
Acting Meth plays Freak Drive.
At that point, if the Defending Meth says, "Actually, I changed my
mind, I'm going to bounce the bleed," I can understand why a judge
might rule that the defending Meth must take the bleed, since the
acting meth believed that the defender tacitly declared "no reactions"
by taking the pool. The acting meth revealed additional information
(like the fact that he was going to play a freak drive), which changed
the mind of the defender. The situation I just described is different
from the situation related to "before the bleed resolves" Action
Modifiers, below.
I think the more likely case that you're describing, is this:
Acting Meth bleeds for 1.
Defending meth says "no blocks", reaches for 1 pool and puts it in the
blood bank.
Acting Meth says, "I play Conditioning."
At this point, the defending Meth can certainly bounce the bleed
(IANLSJ, but I'm certain.) The defending meth could also be warned
about rushing through the steps, which are correctly:
a) Acting Meth bleeds for 1.
b) Defending meth says "no blocks. Do you modify it any?"
c) Acting Meth plays conditioning or not.
d) Defending meth bounces or not.
e) Acting Meth plays Freak Drive.
I hope this helps!
Ira
LSJ
Correct. (Otherwise, reaching for your pool would preclude other bleed modifiers
as well).
Juggernaut1981
> as well).
Thanks LSJ. That's what I wanted to know primarily.
Clearly that has been ruled incorrectly around my playgroup at
tournaments in the past, I'll make sure to try correct around other
players it in the future.
Meej
Note that there are a *few* adjustments to the bleed amount that
happen *as the bleed is resolving*, though - Dis Pater, a resolving
Spying Mission, Andre LeRoux (an increase if it's happening on his own
bleed), possibly some other vampire abilities - that DO take place
after reactions can be played.
- D.J.
squidalot
> Note that there are a *few* adjustments to the bleed amount that
> happen *as the bleed is resolving*, though - Dis Pater, a resolving
> Spying Mission, Andre LeRoux (an increase if it's happening on his own
> bleed), possibly some other vampire abilities - that DO take place
> after reactions can be played.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
And of course AI to reduce the bleed to zero.....