[Some Thoughts] Derange + Malkavian Dementia
Jyhad_addict
and it is the only effect (combined with Derange played by a
Malkavian) that allows you to create a deck that can steal other
meths' minions during your master phase.
If you include in your deck Parthenons, Rumors of Gehenna and maybe
Anson, you can have multiple master phase actions.
You can include Anthelios to improve the frequency of your combo
and enough Master skill cards to be able to increase some minion's
capacity, Heidelburg can help, too.
I know that i am not talking about some new idea, Malkavian
Dementia + Derange is a well-known combo. My post is more something
like a small complain about how devastating an effect like this can
be.
When a combo like this, which is not difficult to make, gives you
control of another meth's minion in your own master phase you can
easily destroy the game of many meths to your own advantage and
significantly disrupt the peace of mind of many meth-players.
So, lets get down to business... Using the above mentioned cards,
you can have many master phase actions.
You start Deranging each and every minion, while increasing the
capacities of your own minions, if there are some high-cap vampires
that Esau cannot Derange. If your minions' capacity is high enough to
derange each minion on the table, then you start placing Master skill
cards on Deranged minions as to increase their capacities up to 8.
When possible, you do the combo: Malkavian Dementia on a Deranged
minion of capacity 8+. So, you gain control of the minion and then you
have 3 options:
a. Golconda on the minion, bad luck for his meth, pool for you.
b. Minion Tap + Golconda on the minion and you bload like the madman
you are.
c. Tap Heidelburg, transfer everything to
a minion of yours, then Golconda on the minion
All 3 cases, result in you getting 8-16+ pool and removing from the
game another meth's minion. This is why i believe that Malkavian
Dementia + Derange is a devastating, nearly over-powering combo.
Thank Caine that it can be dealt with...
Good thing: The Diamond Thunderbolt was a really important asset to
the group of "defense" cards.
Bad thing: There are many effects (cards, special abilities) that
can give you the benefit of having many master phase actions, so this
combined with Anthelios can really give you an "edge" to overcome the
Sudden Reversals and the Diamond Thunderbolts, when you play such a
deck.
Ralf
"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c6a50f81.04100...@posting.google.com...
XZealot
> Unless i am horribly wrong, Malkavian Dementia's text has not changed
> and it is the only effect (combined with Derange played by a
> Malkavian) that allows you to create a deck that can steal other
> meths' minions during your master phase.
You should see the Aleyea, Mind Rape, Clan Impersonation Deck with
Goratrix Advanced. Woo HOO!
> If you include in your deck Parthenons, Rumors of Gehenna and maybe
> Anson, you can have multiple master phase actions.
> You can include Anthelios to improve the frequency of your combo
> and enough Master skill cards to be able to increase some minion's
> capacity, Heidelburg can help, too.
>
> I know that i am not talking about some new idea, Malkavian
> Dementia + Derange is a well-known combo. My post is more something
> like a small complain about how devastating an effect like this can
> be.
Intercept?
Sudden Reversal?
> When a combo like this, which is not difficult to make, gives you
> control of another meth's minion in your own master phase you can
> easily destroy the game of many meths to your own advantage and
> significantly disrupt the peace of mind of many meth-players.
>
> So, lets get down to business... Using the above mentioned cards,
> you can have many master phase actions.
>
> You start Deranging each and every minion, while increasing the
> capacities of your own minions, if there are some high-cap vampires
> that Esau cannot Derange. If your minions' capacity is high enough to
> derange each minion on the table, then you start placing Master skill
> cards on Deranged minions as to increase their capacities up to 8.
That's alot of master cards. Sounds pretty fragile to me.
> When possible, you do the combo: Malkavian Dementia on a Deranged
> minion of capacity 8+. So, you gain control of the minion and then you
> have 3 options:
>
> a. Golconda on the minion, bad luck for his meth, pool for you.
> b. Minion Tap + Golconda on the minion and you bload like the madman
> you are.
> c. Tap Heidelburg, transfer everything to
> a minion of yours, then Golconda on the minion
>
> All 3 cases, result in you getting 8-16+ pool and removing from the
> game another meth's minion. This is why i believe that Malkavian
> Dementia + Derange is a devastating, nearly over-powering combo.
>
> Thank Caine that it can be dealt with...
>
> Good thing: The Diamond Thunderbolt was a really important asset to
> the group of "defense" cards.
> Bad thing: There are many effects (cards, special abilities) that
> can give you the benefit of having many master phase actions, so this
> combined with Anthelios can really give you an "edge" to overcome the
> Sudden Reversals and the Diamond Thunderbolts, when you play such a
> deck.
Sudden Reversal or Intercept solves these problems, but yeah it does
look fun. I'll have to build one. ;)
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, JR
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Matt Green
"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message
news:c6a50f81.04100...@posting.google.com...
> When possible, you do the combo: Malkavian Dementia on a Deranged
> minion of capacity 8+.
Which means that you are either going to have to hope your prey or predator
is playing with vampires >8cap or theat the strongest player on the table is
and you can stop her from sweeping or taking vps, or that the player most
likely to be ousted is and you can swoop in with a Dramatic Upheaval (DU).
OK, not bad so far, should be a target in there somewhere.
> So, you gain control of the minion and then you
> have 3 options:
>
> a. Golconda on the minion, bad luck for his meth, pool for you.
> b. Minion Tap + Golconda on the minion and you bload like the madman
> you are.
> c. Tap Heidelburg, transfer everything to
> a minion of yours, then Golconda on the minion
>
> All 3 cases, result in you getting 8-16+ pool and removing from the
> game another meth's minion. This is why I believe that Malkavian
> Dementia + Derange is a devastating, nearly over-powering combo.
You play a 3, 4 or 5 card combo...and it doesn't win you the game. If fact
if you cripple someone that bad, you'd better hope that you can generate vps
from it or you may just strengthen another player's game. You can generate
8+ pool a few ways with less cards, the advantage here is that you deprive a
player (that you are hopefully about to oust) of a minion.
The 'not winning you the game' part is the crucial bit. It's a nice combo,
but then so is Derange/PtO with Hannibal and Leandro. You also need to
Derange, then Dementia is the next master phase which gives the victim a
chance to move the Derange, unless you use a Network, but that's another
card in the combo. Albeit a good one, generally.
Over-powering? No way. Mind Rape/Heidelburg does a similar thing for less
work and doubles as an ousting mechanism. The best ousting mechanism you
have with Derange/Dementia is with votes as you need big guys to get teh
Dementias to stick. Lucian is waaaay better than Esau in that respect as he
allows you to use Zillah's Valley/Parity Shift and PtO and ToGP. I
understand these are all playable cards.
You should be able to get a vote lock with Derange, Mind Rape and the
Dementias, the rest is an excerise in brutal power card abuse....
Diamond Thunderbolt is a bad card in as much as it's a dead card in some
games. I am never willing to play those cards. Playing your Heidelburg is a
much better plan IMO.
Just my experienced opinion- it looks cool, but cool plays don't win games
(as often as they should do :o)).
Matt Green
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k3leicester
LSJ
news:ck6gl4$fd$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> Diamond Thunderbolt is a bad card in as much as it's a dead card in some
> games. I am never willing to play those cards.
?
You have games in which the only vampires to enter combat with an acting
minion do so only when they're at full capacity?
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
James Coupe
> "Matt Green" <ma...@rid0utass0ciates.c0.uk> wrote in message
> news:ck6gl4$fd$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> > Diamond Thunderbolt is a bad card in as much as it's a dead card in some
> > games. I am never willing to play those cards.
[minor point - Diamond Thunderbolt appears to be missing from the
online text web pages. I'm 99% certain I know the card text, but I'm
reading off monger.vekn.org if I've got it wrong!]
>
> ?
> You have games in which the only vampires to enter combat with an acting
> minion do so only when they're at full capacity?
I don't think that was Matt's point.
If you can use it to thwart a change of control then, yes, it's a
perfectly usable card. There might be other ways of doing similar
things, but it could work out well. (e.g. block the Corruption
action, Sudden the Hostile Takeover or whatever)
But, if you have no such decks on the table, all you can use it for is
the +1 blood before combat angle.
Now, it's quite common for cards to have one "good" ability and one
"poor" ability, or at least an ability which isn't as good as the
other. I'm a big fan of Distraction, but tend to find the discard
version of it significantly better than the tap version, say. It
works out quite nicely as a balance mechanism, though.
But, the "poor" ability on Diamond Thunderbolt is really very poor indeed.
Compared with Life in the City, this has an opportunity cost (the
vampire you want to use it on must be entering combat), it is a Master
Out of Turn (which prevents you playing any others) and it costs a
Master Phase Action (next turn).
Life in the City seems to be a valid comparison, since it gives a
vampire one blood but also lets you choose which one and, if you're
into that sort of thing, can be played cross-table to help out an
ally.
To my mind, the cost of a master phase action vs Life in the City is
pretty huge. Yes, you *can* play it. But if you have Diamond
Thunderbolt and, say, The Barrens or Blood Doll in hand, do you play
Diamond Thunderbolt? Chances are, no, you keep it, play the other,
better Master Phase card and discard it when you have a chance. (Or
just not include it in the first place.)
Which although maybe not quite dead in the strictest sense seems to be
at least slightly decaying.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
LSJ
news:3yd5zt5...@newred.gradwell.net...
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>
> > "Matt Green" <ma...@rid0utass0ciates.c0.uk> wrote in message
> > news:ck6gl4$fd$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> > > Diamond Thunderbolt is a bad card in as much as it's a dead card in
some
> > > games. I am never willing to play those cards.
>
> [minor point - Diamond Thunderbolt appears to be missing from the
> online text web pages. I'm 99% certain I know the card text, but I'm
> reading off monger.vekn.org if I've got it wrong!]
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist_T.html#The_Diamond_Thunderbolt
> > ?
> > You have games in which the only vampires to enter combat with an
acting
> > minion do so only when they're at full capacity?
>
> I don't think that was Matt's point.
>
> If you can use it to thwart a change of control then, yes, it's a
> perfectly usable card. There might be other ways of doing similar
> things, but it could work out well. (e.g. block the Corruption
> action, Sudden the Hostile Takeover or whatever)
>
> But, if you have no such decks on the table, all you can use it for is
> the +1 blood before combat angle.
"All"?
Yes, exactly -- it's not a "dead card".
That's the point I was responding to.
> But, the "poor" ability on Diamond Thunderbolt is really very poor
indeed.
>
> Compared with Life in the City, this has an opportunity cost (the
> vampire you want to use it on must be entering combat), it is a Master
> Out of Turn (which prevents you playing any others) and it costs a
> Master Phase Action (next turn).
>
> Life in the City seems to be a valid comparison, since it gives a
> vampire one blood but also lets you choose which one and, if you're
> into that sort of thing, can be played cross-table to help out an
> ally.
>
> To my mind, the cost of a master phase action vs Life in the City is
> pretty huge. Yes, you *can* play it. But if you have Diamond
> Thunderbolt and, say, The Barrens or Blood Doll in hand, do you play
> Diamond Thunderbolt? Chances are, no, you keep it, play the other,
> better Master Phase card and discard it when you have a chance. (Or
> just not include it in the first place.)
>
> Which although maybe not quite dead in the strictest sense seems to be
> at least slightly decaying.
Um, OK.
In context, though, dead means useless, implying that Matt missed one
of the uses of the card.
A card with uses, especially blood for a vampire about to enter combat
type of use, not dead (the point) and is in fact far from dead (to
add my own opinion to your new point).
James Coupe
[snip - URL to Diamond Thunderbolt text]
Is there a reason it's in the "wrong" place, when nearly all of the
other cards starting with "The" aren't alphabetised under "The"?
(There's about 40 of them, according to Monger.)
> Um, OK.
>
> In context, though, dead means useless, implying that Matt missed one
> of the uses of the card.
Many people use "Useless" about lots of cards that, in fact, have
"uses". It's just that they don't think the use is worth the cost.
Like "broken", "cheesy" and "overpowered", it's a term that different
people use in all sorts of different ways.
Like, if you made Temptation of Greater Power cost 10 pool, it
wouldn't be useless. But many people would call it that, just the
same.
> A card with uses, especially blood for a vampire about to enter combat
> type of use, not dead (the point) and is in fact far from dead (to
> add my own opinion to your new point).
This seems... weird. Since every card has some effect, every card can
have uses. Hence no card could be "useless".
And I think no-one would object to calling (say) Mummify useless
(though there were some weird uses for it exploiting other cards
etc.), even if it might protect you from massive damage/blood
loss/burning from aggravated damage. Yet it still has "uses".
They're just not very good for what the card costs you.
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
> Many people use "Useless" about lots of cards that, in fact, have
>
> This seems... weird. Since every card has some effect, every card can
> have uses. Hence no card could be "useless".
>
> They're just not very good for what the card costs you.
a "dead" card means "useless" in the sense that the card cannot
be used -- that it will only be discarded, regardless of what
some people use "useless" to mean.
I understand that you don't find it to be useful in the
broader sense, as well. That's fine. My experience is
different in that regard.
Emmit Svenson
> But, the "poor" ability on Diamond Thunderbolt is really very poor indeed.
>
> Compared with Life in the City, this has an opportunity cost (the
> vampire you want to use it on must be entering combat), it is a Master
> Out of Turn (which prevents you playing any others) and it costs a
> Master Phase Action (next turn).
The opportunity cost for Diamond Thunderbolt is pretty high. I've used
it to great effect in a multiple master phase deck with Anthelios,
however. My predator played a Fortitude skill card on Anson, then Mind
Raped him. I used a master phase action to trade a spare Parthenon for
a Diamond Thunderbolt in my ash heap. Of course, a Golconda would have
been good in that situation too. In other games, I traded the DT for
Minion Taps and Anarch Revolts.
Anthelios makes high opportunity cost masters like Diamond Thunderbolt
more useful. It's even better with Gambit Accepted and Momentum's
Edge.
Charles Lechasseur
geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote:
>Unless i am horribly wrong, Malkavian Dementia's text has not changed
>and it is the only effect (combined with Derange played by a
>Malkavian) that allows you to create a deck that can steal other
>meths' minions during your master phase.
>
>If you include in your deck Parthenons, Rumors of Gehenna and maybe
>Anson, you can have multiple master phase actions.
> You can include Anthelios to improve the frequency of your combo
>and enough Master skill cards to be able to increase some minion's
>capacity, Heidelburg can help, too.
>
> I know that i am not talking about some new idea, Malkavian
>Dementia + Derange is a well-known combo. My post is more something
>like a small complain about how devastating an effect like this can
>be.
I've been playing a deck that uses this combo for some time now. I
eventually won a tournament with it.
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4quebeccitysept
Reading the decklist, you'll notice that you forgot one possible use of
Derange/Dementia: Social Ladder. this card removes the victim from the
game, just like Golconda, and gives you pool directly on a new vamp to
boot. It's not necessarily better than Golconda, but works on all vampires
and can speed up your game by also helping you bring out more minions
faster.
Since I've been playing this deck for a while, I'll comment on your
assertion that states it is devastating.
I agree that most decks, when caught by that combo, will be heavily
crippled. But you make it sound easier than it is.
First, you need to play with big Malks. This means you can be hit pretty
hard by weenies before you even get out your first vampire.
Second, when you place the Derange on a potential victim, it can be moved
around. And chances are, it WILL be moved around to another vampire that
you don't necessarily want to kill (for example, one controlled by a
cross-table ally) before your next master phase. Believe me, hitting the
right target is not easy with Derange until later on when there are less
players in the game.
Third, the combo doesn't work so well on weenies since getting rid of one
of their vampires probably won't bother them too much if they're
disposable anyway.
And I'm not even talking about the possibilities to get your combo stopped
(the Derange can be blocked, and the masters can be Suddened).
All in all, I like the combo and think it is very strong, but not
overpowered. It takes time to start working and is very fragile early on.
It also takes a lot of space in the deck. Later in the game, it is very,
very strong, but you still need to survive up to that point.
--
charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca
Jyhad_addict
> I've been playing a deck that uses this combo for some time now. I
> eventually won a tournament with it.
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4quebeccitysept
>
> Reading the decklist, you'll notice that you forgot one possible use of
> Derange/Dementia: Social Ladder. this card removes the victim from the
> game, just like Golconda, and gives you pool directly on a new vamp to
> boot. It's not necessarily better than Golconda, but works on all vampires
> and can speed up your game by also helping you bring out more minions
> faster.
>
i agree, but only if you manage to steal one of your prey's vampires
and do the combo early in the game. Later in the game, Golconda or
Golconda+Minion Tap are better.
> Since I've been playing this deck for a while, I'll comment on your
> assertion that states it is devastating.
>
> I agree that most decks, when caught by that combo, will be heavily
> crippled. But you make it sound easier than it is.
>
maybe i do, maybe it is easier than you think in certain cases.
> First, you need to play with big Malks. This means you can be hit pretty
> hard by weenies before you even get out your first vampire.
>
no need to play with big Malks (i'll explain later), you can
include some Gehenna cards to help you deal with the weenies, like N
upon N.
Anyway, have you ever tried playing with a tricky mid cap derange
deck ?
I am talking about 6 Malkavians and 6 non malkavians-!malkavians, that
have obf for stealth and why not dom to bounce or auspex, your call.
The Malkavians can be mid-caps and the non-malk low cap.
So, you derange the younger non-malk and then the low-cap transfers
the Derange to any minion you want. I know that you need 2 actions to
get things done, instead of 1, but this allows you to use vampires of
a lower capacity.
You'll also need a lot of secret passages, to prevent the deranged
vampires to move the Derange back to you. I am not saying this will
surely work, but it can be a surprise and maybe work. Just an idea...
> Second, when you place the Derange on a potential victim, it can be moved
> around. And chances are, it WILL be moved around to another vampire that
> you don't necessarily want to kill (for example, one controlled by a
> cross-table ally) before your next master phase. Believe me, hitting the
> right target is not easy with Derange until later on when there are less
> players in the game.
>
in my opinion, when you use high-cap vampires, you should try to
derange as many vampires of the table as possible, causing them as
much confusion as you can, and then strike.
Additionaly, if you place a Derange on one of your prey's vampires
and he moves the Derange to someone else, this "someone" else during
his turn will possibly want to move the derange back, to avoid being
stolen and "removed" from the Game. This means stalling the Game and
this is to your advantage.
You can also include cards that stall the game, like Millicent
Smith.
Now, weenies can be a real pain, so you might also want to include
some cards to give them a hard time, like Aranthebes, Nightmare upon
Nightmares, e.t.c.
> Third, the combo doesn't work so well on weenies since getting rid of one
> of their vampires probably won't bother them too much if they're
> disposable anyway.
>
i know, pack 5-6 anti-weenie cards. like Domain challenge, e.t.c.
> And I'm not even talking about the possibilities to get your combo stopped
> (the Derange can be blocked, and the masters can be Suddened).
>
Yes, but it is not easy to block a Malkavian with sup obf and you can
always use your anthelios and your Parthenon, to overcome Sudden
reversals.
> All in all, I like the combo and think it is very strong, but not
> overpowered. It takes time to start working and is very fragile early on.
> It also takes a lot of space in the deck. Later in the game, it is very,
> very strong, but you still need to survive up to that point.
I am just saying that all the other cards that give you control of
another meth's minion for a short period of time, do so when it is not
your master phase. This "combo" makes it possible to control another
meth's minion in your master phase, so you can do pretty much anything
with him.
That is what i consider to be a little bit overpowering.
Reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:2so01qF...@uni-berlin.de...
> "Matt Green" <ma...@rid0utass0ciates.c0.uk> wrote in message
> news:ck6gl4$fd$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> > Diamond Thunderbolt is a bad card in as much as it's a dead card in some
> > games. I am never willing to play those cards.
>
> ?
> You have games in which the only vampires to enter combat with an acting
> minion do so only when they're at full capacity?
I must say that i use the diamond thunderbolt in a Gestalt/Blood Bros deck
and it works perfectly. 1 blood makes a huge difference. And being able to
counter a mind rape or temptation is HUGE when you rely on a circle, since
the loss of one member seriously hinders his packmates =)
See it like an out of turn "life in the city"
I'd say : hurrah for Diamond thunderbolt.
Reyda
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news:3ypt3tq...@newred.gradwell.net...
> This seems... weird. Since every card has some effect, every card can
> have uses. Hence no card could be "useless".
oh man, i'm tired =)
> And I think no-one would object to calling (say) Mummify useless
> (though there were some weird uses for it exploiting other cards
> etc.), even if it might protect you from massive damage/blood
> loss/burning from aggravated damage. Yet it still has "uses".
>
> They're just not very good for what the card costs you.
okay.
First the card has no cost, if a master phase action.
The card SAVES one of your vampire from being spirit marionetted, Tempted,
Hostile overtaken, mind raped, graverobbed. It's the only card that provides
such effect. And *as a bonus* you can play it to gain one blood so it is
easily cyclable.
It allows you to counter all those "i use you, then heidelberg you so you
can bleed at dawn" stuff as well as "i'll use your vamp to diablerize an
other one" stuff. It's the only card that does if efficiently.
So please stop complaining and try to actually *use* the cards in *real
decks*, during *real games*. I did and my conclusion is that The Diamond
Thunderbolt is pure gold.
now your mileage may vary, but i seriously doubt you considered the card
beyond rhetorics. =)
Jyhad_addict
at this point i would like to say that i completely agree with you.
Let the fools waste their pool on Hostile Takeovers, as i Diamond
Thunderbolt their asses! :)
James Coupe
> First the card has no cost, if a master phase action.
> The card SAVES one of your vampire from being spirit marionetted, Tempted,
> Hostile overtaken, mind raped, graverobbed. It's the only card that provides
> such effect. And *as a bonus* you can play it to gain one blood so it is
> easily cyclable.
Erm, perhaps you should re-read my posts.
I made no criticism of its theft prevention. If you read my posts,
you'll see I was clearly differentiating between the "good" and "poor"
abilities. (As was LSJ, for that matter.)
As an aside regarding "has no cost", the card also has a relatively
high opportunity cost, depending on your metagame. (This is not a
criticism of the card.)
So, if you're trying to explain to my why I'm wrong... I haven't said
what you appear to think I'm saying.
Frederick Scott
news:2so71fF...@uni-berlin.de...
> a "dead" card means "useless" in the sense that the card cannot
> be used -- that it will only be discarded, regardless of what
> some people use "useless" to mean.
>
> I understand that you don't find it to be useful in the
> broader sense, as well.
Hmmm. If we're going to get technical about semantics, then I
might point out that "not useful" == "useless" is a generally
accepted view of synonymity.
At least you'll have to forgive people if they define a
"useless card" as being one that they could never envision
"using" - as in, "even putting in any kind of a deck that was
intended to oust opponents".
Fred
Frederick Scott
news:41697fd1$0$12373$79c1...@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net...
Huh? Could you rephrase this? It's a critical statement and
it makes no sense.
A master phase action clearly _is_ a cost. For this reason,
it consumes a precious master slot in your deck.
Since I'm getting sucked into the thread, I'd say I agreed with
Matt that it's not a usable card. The ability to dramatically
save a player from a crushingly bad fate in a given situation is
never the less insufficient to think of it as being usable. It still
depends on how often you'd use it and what else you could be using
that card slot (and master slot) for.
Fred
LSJ
news:LEBad.26092$_a3.24401@fed1read05...
> At least you'll have to forgive people if they define a
> "useless card" as being one that they could never envision
> "using" - as in, "even putting in any kind of a deck that was
> intended to oust opponents".
Again:
The point is about what a "dead card" is -- it is one that
cannot be played, that serves as a blocker in your hand
until you can discard it.
Frederick Scott
> "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message
> news:LEBad.26092$_a3.24401@fed1read05...
>> At least you'll have to forgive people if they define a
>> "useless card" as being one that they could never envision
>> "using" - as in, "even putting in any kind of a deck that was
>> intended to oust opponents".
>
> Again:
> The point is about what a "dead card" is -- it is one that
> cannot be played, that serves as a blocker in your hand
> until you can discard it.
DOH! Call myself 15 yards for piling on. Sorry, for some
strage reason I thought you were maintaining that a card had
to be a "dead" card to ever term it a "useless" card. Probably
because of disputes we've had in the past about language and
semantics; I've come to perceive you as much more of a semantic
absolutist than I am.
Fred
Reyda
"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:8LBad.26136$_a3.2133@fed1read05...
> "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41697fd1$0$12373$79c1...@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net...
> > First the card has no cost, if a master phase action.
>
> Huh? Could you rephrase this? It's a critical statement and
> it makes no sense.
>
> A master phase action clearly _is_ a cost. For this reason,
> it consumes a precious master slot in your deck.
Oh man... A master card costs you most of the time a master phase action. If
you think this cost is too high, then don't play with master cards at all =)
Daneel
>> A master phase action clearly _is_ a cost. For this reason,
>> it consumes a precious master slot in your deck.
>
> Oh man... A master card costs you most of the time a master phase
> action. If
> you think this cost is too high, then don't play with master cards at
> all =)
Ascendance costs you 1 master phase action and 1 card and yields a pool.
Anything less useful is probably a waste of slots. Heck, even anything as
useful as Ascendance is considered to be a waste of slots by many. You have
a free MPA each turn, if you don't use it, it is wasted. But if you intend
to use it, you better use it well, because other players will use theirs
(and they may not settle for a gain 1 pool effect).
--
Bye,
Daneel
Charles Lechasseur
> > Derange/Dementia: Social Ladder. this card removes the victim from the
> > game, just like Golconda, and gives you pool directly on a new vamp to
> > boot. It's not necessarily better than Golconda, but works on all vampires
> > and can speed up your game by also helping you bring out more minions
> > faster.
> >
>
> i agree, but only if you manage to steal one of your prey's vampires
> and do the combo early in the game. Later in the game, Golconda or
> Golconda+Minion Tap are better.
If you steal a big-cap vamp that is low on blood, Golconda is better.
Otherwise, Social Ladder can be just as good. Social Ladder is more
"stable", I believe, because it doesn't rely on you stealing vampires
with capacity >= 8.
> > I agree that most decks, when caught by that combo, will be heavily
> > crippled. But you make it sound easier than it is.
> >
> maybe i do, maybe it is easier than you think in certain cases.
Maybe. I don't pretend to be the best player around. We all have our
strengths. But in my experience, the combo is hard to do early in the
game. As the game moves on and players are ousted, it becomes easier
and easier to do, and thus stronger and stronger.
Have you played a deck that uses this combo? Maybe you can share your
experiences with us on this point.
> > First, you need to play with big Malks. This means you can be hit pretty
> > hard by weenies before you even get out your first vampire.
> >
> no need to play with big Malks (i'll explain later), you can
> include some Gehenna cards to help you deal with the weenies, like N
> upon N.
I haven't played with N upon N yet. Aranthebes would certainly be good
in this deck; good point.
> Anyway, have you ever tried playing with a tricky mid cap derange
> deck ?
> I am talking about 6 Malkavians and 6 non malkavians-!malkavians, that
> have obf for stealth and why not dom to bounce or auspex, your call.
> The Malkavians can be mid-caps and the non-malk low cap.
> So, you derange the younger non-malk and then the low-cap transfers
> the Derange to any minion you want. I know that you need 2 actions to
> get things done, instead of 1, but this allows you to use vampires of
> a lower capacity.
> You'll also need a lot of secret passages, to prevent the deranged
> vampires to move the Derange back to you. I am not saying this will
> surely work, but it can be a surprise and maybe work. Just an idea...
I also had this idea. I have never built a deck that uses it. I think
it will be hard to pull off, because you need to have intercept to
stop the Derange being moved back to you... I think it is more stable
with big-cap Malks, because you can then use the combo cards to your
own advantage too (Golconda, Minion Tap).
If you try the deck, please share your experience with us. I am
curious to see if it can work.
> in my opinion, when you use high-cap vampires, you should try to
> derange as many vampires of the table as possible, causing them as
> much confusion as you can, and then strike.
You must be careful when you play this kind of game. If you play
Derange recklessly, everyone around the table will fear you. This is
not necessarily good.
> Additionaly, if you place a Derange on one of your prey's vampires
> and he moves the Derange to someone else, this "someone" else during
> his turn will possibly want to move the derange back, to avoid being
> stolen and "removed" from the Game.
In my experience, when you pull off the combo once, everyone goes
"ouch" realizing that just by leaving the Derange on one of their
vamps, it can get nuked and you can bloat in the process. Depending on
the players, you can then get a big red target painted on your head:
everyone will think you're the "end boss", so to speak, and may start
ganging up on you. This is not good. You must be careful with the
combo, not to draw too much attention to yourself.
> This means stalling the Game and
> this is to your advantage.
> You can also include cards that stall the game, like Millicent
> Smith.
In my experience, stalling the game is NOT to your advantage with this
deck. In fact, the deck can sometimes be slow, because killing
vampires doesn't win you games. If other players fear you, they might
play conservatively, sit on loads of pool, etc. and the game will time
out. This is not good for you: you must speed things up.
Another reason for you to speed things up is that, as I've mentioned
before, the less players are left in the game, the stronger the combo
is. This means that you WANT the game to go fast and you want some
player(s) to be ousted. As long as it's not you.
> Now, weenies can be a real pain, so you might also want to include
> some cards to give them a hard time, like Aranthebes, Nightmare upon
> Nightmares, e.t.c.
Aranthebes would be a good addition. As for the rest, I'm not yet sure
how to handle the weenies. I guess I haven't encountered enough of
them yet while playing the deck. Experience and time will probably
help me. I'll try N upon N once to see how it works out.
> > And I'm not even talking about the possibilities to get your combo stopped
> > (the Derange can be blocked, and the masters can be Suddened).
> >
>
> Yes, but it is not easy to block a Malkavian with sup obf and you can
> always use your anthelios and your Parthenon, to overcome Sudden
> reversals.
Don't forget that with Anthelios, a Sudden Reversal can become a
potent weapon in someone else's Ash Heap.
But I think you're right, it is hard to stop the combo completely.
Blocking a Malk with OBF is next to impossible with Forgotten
Labyrinth and Elder Impersonation.
> I am just saying that all the other cards that give you control of
> another meth's minion for a short period of time, do so when it is not
> your master phase. This "combo" makes it possible to control another
> meth's minion in your master phase, so you can do pretty much anything
> with him.
> That is what i consider to be a little bit overpowering.
It gives you control of the minion in your NEXT master phase. Sure,
you can pull off nasty combos because of the master phase thing, but
what about the cards that give you control of a minion RIGHT NOW, like
Spirit Marionette? The target doesn't even have a chance of moving the
card back to someone else, he's dead meat. That's pretty strong too.
As I said, I consider this combo strong, but not overpowered. Maybe
I'm just playing it wrong. In that case, I'd love to hear from someone
else with a different experience regarding this.
Reyda
> many master cards cost you a master phase action - that's what
> MPAs regulate: how many master cards you can play. It's the
> master cards THEMSELVES that are precious. So don't tell me a
> master card that costs an MPA has "no cost". It has a cost - it
> prevents you from playing some other master card that will be far
> more likely to do me some good than Diamond Thunderbolt.
It was on purpose =)
you were just nit picking instead of comparing some simple stuff.
take minion tap : it's one of the staple for regaining pool extremely fast.
but even that, you are not sure of. Sometimeyour big vamp get contested, get
rushed, or even migth be stolen by somme entombment/graverob monkey.
Temptation of Greater power is a very interesting master card. But sometime
you are the only one really low on pool and cannot afford to use it. Or you
don't have the justicar ready, he's stuck in the bottom of your crypt.
But no one would deny that the opportunity aspect of those two cards.
Again, i personnaly rate The Diamon Thunderbolt high, because it's one of
the only defense you have against cards that would probably ruin your game
AND give an advantage to someone else (most common : your predator or prey).
Having one's vamp burned is a problem, of course. But having a vamp stolen
is a huge swing, which oftentimes ruins your games beyond all hope. TDT
costs nothing, if a master phase, and a slot in your deck. If you have no
defence against graverob/hostile/marionette and stuff, i think you may want
to dedicate some slots to 2 or 3 TDT. The same way people with no vote
defense might wisely include 2 or 3 Delaying Tactics. No one plays vote ?
then, they'll discard them, and no fuss is made about it. TDT is not dead
since the odds you'll enter combat are high, and some people will even rush
the vampire depending on the blood they have on them, knowing that they will
not be able to afford a coma or entombment. That's a nice "bonus effect",
really.
I don't know why DTD should be considered bad : because it's a master card ?
A lot of strong master cards are also corner case yet they see play.
I'm just a bit disappointed people criticize the cards instead of trying to
use them.
The tone of the newsgroup is quite bitter, mind you, with everyone
complaining about this being too strong and this being too weak. If you try
DT you'll find it's perfectly balanced and never stays long in your hand.
This had to be said, period =)
Reyda
> > It was on purpose =)
> > you were just nit picking instead of comparing some simple stuff.
>
> value on the net. People often tend to think you're actually
> obtuse - especially when they already think your arguments are
> somewhat obtuse.
yes, i know but i'm not here to be popular myself =)
if people hate me on the behalf of what i say on this ng, then no big
deal...
i know it's now off topic, but i'd rather be considered stupid while saying
what i think instead of feigning i'm agreeing with everyone. Sometime you
cannot also avoid the "fatigue effect" that makes you say stupid stuff to
see people's reaction.
in general people in real life don't think i'm obtuse, and since i value irl
more than "net life" i'm quite happy with that =)
(snip end of Fred's message that perfectly makes sense)
i think we were attending the same tournament thrice or more in L.A. and i
didn't have the chance to play with you, isn't that a shame ? =)
James Coupe
> Oh man... A master card costs you most of the time a master phase action. If
> you think this cost is too high, then don't play with master cards at all =)
Erm, can I ask for a pint of whatever you're drinking? It's clearly
good stuff.
Master cards cost a master phase action, yes. (Though uncancelled
trifles can give you one back, etc.) And only one Master Out of Turn per
go round the table. This is not at issue, since this is basically how
the game works.
Now, a Master Card which said "You win the game" would clearly be
worth that master phase action. A Master Card that said "Toss a coin
five times. If you get 5 heads in a row, gain 1 pool." would clearly
not be worth that master phase action, as you could just play
Ascendance.
Figuring into a cost analysis that a card is costing you a master
phase action (or pool, or space in hand until the opportunity arises,
or requires a specific discipline, clan or minion, or....) which could
be spent on something else[0] doesn't mean that Master Cards aren't -
in general - worth playing. Just that an individual master card may
or may not be worth playing, when you could be spending that resource
on something else instead.
(Similarly, comparing pool costs of equipment does not mean that
equipment is not worth playing. It just means that some equipment
might be overly expensive, or extremely cheap, or just right.)
[0] Not just playing other Master Cards, of course. e.g. you might
decide you quite like Short Term investment, say.
Reyda
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> a écrit dans le message de
news:3yu0sz2...@newred.gradwell.net...
> "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > Oh man... A master card costs you most of the time a master phase
action. If
> > you think this cost is too high, then don't play with master cards at
all =)
>
> Erm, can I ask for a pint of whatever you're drinking? It's clearly
> good stuff.
Actually it was a very simple yet enjoyable Corbières 2002, red wine from
the roussillon. Not exactly a pricey wine, but good with sausages and
cheese. Hey, i could sen you a bottle of this if you want =)
> Master cards cost a master phase action, yes. (Though uncancelled
> trifles can give you one back, etc.) And only one Master Out of Turn per
> go round the table. This is not at issue, since this is basically how
> the game works.
yes, that's why my answer was so obviously stupid =)
Since you put TDT in your deck as a master card, you are already aware of
its "master slot cost". What i meant is, since it has no *pool* cost, this
master has no inherent cost, if a master card action. It also spares your
further mpa unlike say, secret hoard (incorrectly mispelled horde).
one could also argue that this card takes space in your deck. It is also a
cost, because you can't go over 90. We can go a long way like this =)
> Figuring into a cost analysis that a card is costing you a master
> phase action (or pool, or space in hand until the opportunity arises,
> or requires a specific discipline, clan or minion, or....) which could
> be spent on something else[0] doesn't mean that Master Cards aren't -
> in general - worth playing. Just that an individual master card may
> or may not be worth playing, when you could be spending that resource
> on something else instead.
Yes, but what is actually worth playing ? Endless debate. Some cards are
obviously a good addition to all decks (with some exception : who wants a
blood doll in the julius+allies army deck ?). I say that TDT has a high
opportunity cost since all in all, it's like a diminished Life in the City,
that can also have a hudge defensive effect. An effect you cant find
anywhere else, which prevents your game to be ruined.
Reyda
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> a écrit dans le message de
news:opsfuplz...@news.chello.hu...
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:10:58 +0200, Reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Your vampire can be lost in a manner of ways. It can be stolen, burned in
> combat, burned as an action or burned otherwise (like as a MPA).
as if i didn't know that =)
i rarely loose my vamps in combat, mind you, since i often play prevention.
look, in the past two tournaments, i had only one vamp decapitated in
combat, i had some fortitude in hand but beast with a master ANI (!) on him
played Trap + superior Terror frenzy, then maneuvered to long range to
strike me with a gate twice in a row. I decided to save the "for" cards for
my other minions. Facing a Ranged Beast deck, how unlucky is that ? i know
you don't give a damn, but you know figure the circumstances.
burned as an action ? it has never happened except for the one or two
occasional diablerie, and the last PtO hit me like two years ago. on the
other hand, i had far more vamps sacrificied going in diablerie after a mind
rape or temptation, or burning due to a spirit marionette/heidelberg/daring
the dawn. I also had vamps who willingly went to torpor to pull the vote i
needed, then were graverobbed. that's also losing a vampire to the enemy.
I suppose your mileage may vary but here is how it works here.
> You can thwart "stolen", give yourself a mostly insignificant edge in
> "burned
> in combat", and completely not affect burned as an action or burned
> otherwise.
Stealing a vampire gives you a huge edge in my book. Especially if you tend
to use vamps with nice specials like Ilyana Ravidovitch, Dominique and
others who can influence the game with intercept or built in actions.
But again you mileage may vary.
> This is not that effective when it comes to saving your minion in and of
> itself.
Please let me judge myself what is good to save my minions from being
stolen.
It seems you don't get robbed often from your minions, so your advice does
not sound genuine =)
> If you have... Diamond Thunderbolt, Vox Domini and Direct
> Intervention in your hand, you are safer
I don't play D.I.
I think D.I. is a bad answer for the flaws your deck has. A deck that can
survive without D.I. is stronger in my opinion. I'm happy that people rely
on D.I. though. If it's their only solution about grapples, parity shifts or
Banishments, odds are they'll get screwed sooner or later.
And D.I. does not really help agains the Hostile Takeover/Malkavian dementia
trick steal. nor does it prevent your opponent to play another temptation,
another mind rape, another graverobbin or another spirit marionette right
away from their hand. If your vamp is already tempted or if there is a form
of corruption in play D.I. cannot break the "take controle effect" the
serpent is counting on.
I value this surprise effect most than you do, maybe ? =)
> Secret Passage,
> Chanjelin Ward and San Nicolas de los Servitas on your vampire,
> you are even
> closer to safety
good options, but not in my decks, thank you.
May i add that a vampire with a changeling ward can still be the target of
Temptation of Greater power ? =)
> especially if the guy is Moncada or Hazimel, but even
> that is far from being certain. ;)
You can't be certain of anything, but what i want to be the most sure of,
it's keeping my vamps for me and not share them with other players.
Daneel
>> Your vampire can be lost in a manner of ways. It can be stolen, burned
>> in
>> combat, burned as an action or burned otherwise (like as a MPA).
>
> as if i didn't know that =)
Yeah, I kind of thought you would. ;)
> i rarely loose my vamps in combat, mind you, since i often play
> prevention.
This is a personal consideration. It supports why you prefer the card over
others, but helps little in assessing a "general" usefulness.
> look, in the past two tournaments, i had only one vamp decapitated in
> combat, [...]
That is a metagame issue. Seldom is the table I don't see at least one
combat-heavy deck at. My metagame is probably more combat-heavy.
> burned as an action ? it has never happened except for the one or two
> occasional diablerie, and the last PtO hit me like two years ago. on the
> other hand, i had far more vamps sacrificied going in diablerie after a
> mind rape or temptation, or burning due to a spirit marionette/
> heidelberg/daring the dawn. I also had vamps who willingly went to
> torpor to pull the vote i needed, then were graverobbed. that's also
> losing a vampire to the enemy.
>
> I suppose your mileage may vary but here is how it works here.
I think that this is less an issue of mileage and more of metagame. I see
far more burn vampire effects than steal vampire effects, probably because
there are more and easier ways to burn than to steal.
>> You can thwart "stolen", give yourself a mostly insignificant edge in
>> "burned
>> in combat", and completely not affect burned as an action or burned
>> otherwise.
>
> Stealing a vampire gives you a huge edge in my book. Especially if you
> tend
> to use vamps with nice specials like Ilyana Ravidovitch, Dominique and
> others who can influence the game with intercept or built in actions.
I like those vampires (especially Dominique, her special is often
underrated). She is in most typical "Made by Daneel" decks. ;) I had her
stolen twice in the last two years (both times by Graverobbing). I had
Lazverinus stolen another time (With Temptation of Greater Power). I saw
my minions burned about 50 times during the same interval, about 10 of
which were PTO, 10 was decapitate or excessive aggravated damage, and 30
were regular diableries, amaranths or blood hunts.
Guess this is a metagame thingy... ;)
>> This is not that effective when it comes to saving your minion in and of
>> itself.
>
> Please let me judge myself what is good to save my minions from being
> stolen.
I said general saving. You are free to judge that as well, by the way.
> It seems you don't get robbed often from your minions, so your advice
> does not sound genuine =)
Indeed.
> I don't play D.I.
Okay, this is an entirely different topic. Btw I don't usually play SR
for the reasons you don't play DI for (But I do play DI because of the
crippling effect it can have on many-card combos).
> And D.I. does not really help agains the Hostile Takeover/Malkavian
> dementia trick steal.
Indeed. I listed the three cards as providing some security in unison.
> nor does it prevent your opponent to play another temptation,
> another mind rape, another graverobbin or another spirit marionette right
> away from their hand.
Neither does Diamond Thunderbolt, by the way.
> If your vamp is already tempted or if there is a form of corruption in
> play
> D.I. cannot break the "take controle effect" the serpent is counting on.
Indeed.
> I value this surprise effect most than you do, maybe ? =)
Possible.
>> Secret Passage,
>> Chanjelin Ward and San Nicolas de los Servitas on your vampire,
>> you are even
>> closer to safety
>
> good options, but not in my decks, thank you.
;) I mostly included the last part as a semi-serious listing. True, the
cards
can help, but in most cases they are only good in special decks.
> May i add that a vampire with a changeling ward can still be the target
> of Temptation of Greater power ? =)
Oh yeah, I forgot Sudden Reversal! ;)
> You can't be certain of anything, but what i want to be the most sure of,
> it's keeping my vamps for me and not share them with other players.
That is a personal issue. I like decks that build heavily upon minions. I
dislike getting my vampires burned or stolen, so I like playing Diamond
Thunderbolt, Vox Domini and Direct Intervention. I don't play them in every
deck though. If my minions are more disposable, or just less focal, losing
them may be aggravating, but may not hinder my strategy enough to implement
countermeasures. I dislike PTO because my playstyle favors the more
investment
+ more security approach (I like my minions to be capable, even if that
means
a greater cost, and use the extra potential to defend better, thus in
effect
getting a return on my investment).
--
Bye,
Daneel
Reyda
> > nor does it prevent your opponent to play another temptation,
> > another mind rape, another graverobbin or another spirit marionette
right
> > away from their hand.
>
> Neither does Diamond Thunderbolt, by the way.
Actually it does, that's why it is superior for me.
The mind rape is played, put on your minion , and during your opponent's
next minion phase, he untaps it and takes control of it. You play TDT and
your minion is untapped, gains a blood and stays yours : talk about a nice
effect ;)
The spirit marionette action is succesful, you play TDT and the minion gains
a blood and does not switch to the marionetter. As the action was
successful, he cannot freak drive to play another one (NRA stuff). See what
i mean ? ;)
James Coupe
> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> a écrit dans le message de
> news:3yacuq5...@newred.gradwell.net...
>
>
> > Not true. All cards have inherent costs. Space in deck, space in
> > hand, opportunity cost, and so on.
>
> you mean like the stuff you sniped on purpose from my previous post =)
> "one could also argue that this card takes space in your deck. It is also a
> cost, because you can't go over 90."
>
> editing other people's post so you they appear even more stupid is funny
> hobby indeed =)
You said the card doesn't have a cost. I contradicted this, and
explained why. These things are all costs of including a card, and
this point needs to be clear.
I didn't dispute (or comment upon) your later mentions, so I didn't
include those in my follow-up.
> yes, i read your point, and am still perfectly convinced that the card is
> worth putting in a deck. It's that simple. It has a "master slot" cost, yes,
> it has an opportunity cost, sure, it has a pecuniar cost, yeah. But i think
> sparing 2 or 3 slots for a card that may avoid you to loose a key vampire is
> a good choice. If not, why would people keep playing with D.I. ?
D.I. is a very different card indeed.
One thing that D.I. offers is extreme flexibility.
Assume that any deck you face has at least one card in it which is key
to the deck's functioning. (This is not always true.) For a good
number of decks, this can be true. For instance, a Soul Gem deck
wouldn't appreciate having Soul Gem disappear. A Return to Innocence
deck (of old) hated having that disappear. Quite a few action
modifiers can be a pain in the ass, because the card is still played,
it just has no effect. So you can't repeat it. e.g. Day Operation.
That can be pretty critical, as many decks rarely have enough in hand
to repeat these with impunity, particularly with an alternative
source. e.g. a stealth deck may well have a lot of different stealth
cards lurking around (Lost in Crowds, Faceless Night, Swallowed by the
Night, etc.) But a lot of crucial plays with unusual cards can't be
repeated so easily.
Being able to jam a particular combo, or kill a crucial card, at the
right moment is a very useful thing indeed.
But you get the ability to play it against *any* type of minion card
you choose, assuming that they happen out of turn.
This means that you can include it in a deck and play it against an
Immortal Grapple. Or a Majesty. Or a Day Operation. Or a...
Interestingly, this means that a number of theft cards come under the
eye of Direct Intervention. You can stop, say, Temptation being
played in the first place (Diamond Thunderbolt only stops one theft
using it). You can stop Corruption (though that would only delay the
theft, of course). You can stop Mind Rape. You can stop
Graverobbing. And so on.
The main things you can't stop are Hostile Takeover, Malkavian
Dementia and Temptation of Greater Power.
ToGP's power is greatly reduced since the reprint, so it's less of an
issue (though still a pain if it happens). Malkavian Dementia isn't
much of an issue if you're not playing Malkavians - and you could DI
those Derange cards, if someone's going for that trick. Hostile
Takeover is a potentially large problem - it depends on your local
playgroup, of course.
Additionally, since DI works in a very different way (card
cancellation), you might find it better to draw out someone's stealth,
or whatever, and waste it on the action. This is particularly true
where pool costs (or blood costs, potentially) are concerned, or pool
bids. Hence TDT may be useful in such circumstances, if those are the
worries you have.
(You might find that careful use of Bleeding the Vine can cause some
difficulties, depending on the given decks.)
But, when you find that no-one is playing, say, Mind Rape or
Graverobbing (or whichever particular cards you fear), you can throw
it at the cards you do fear. That Dramatic Upheaval, say. Or that
Clan Impersonation to stall some weird cross-clan combo deck. Or
that... and so on.
When you find yourself at a table with TDT but no reason to use it,
you find yourself with the ability to spend a master phase and your
out of turn master phase for... one blood.
So DI has a much lower opportunity cost. Of course, some players may
well up the opportunity cost for themselves - saving it for what they
view as the critical key card. But you can almost always through DI
at something a deck has. (To be sat between *two* master only decks
would be unfortunate, since you can use DI against predator or prey
for obvious gain to yourself. (Cross table may be an option,
depending on what happens.))
> They could
> use the space for more Dreams of the sphinx and blood dolls !
> Choosing to put a card in a deck is a highly subjective matter, and all the
> demonstrations you would make cannot change a players conviction =)
*sigh*
No-one was saying - least of all me - that TDT can't be a playable
card. Of course it can.
What people were discussing is the fact that when you find you can't
play TDT for anti-theft (because it's highly other deck dependant),
whether or not the fallback version you get is going to be worth the
cost, and hence factor that into their thoughts about the card.
> If pure logic was behind deckbuilding, we would all play more or less the
> same archtypes and the games would become boring.
> Take a real life example : Remember when, as a judge, you read the turbo
> arika decklist ? If the authors exposed the stuff on the newsgroup, everyone
> would have foiund hundred reasons for the deck not to work. Yet it swept
> tables until the finals.
Would they? The Turbo-Arika deck is a very viable deck in many ways.
It relies on some careful crafting and some careful play, and there
*are* ways of causing it grief. But the deck is still very plausible
and viable, though it has the built in problem - people guess what
deck you're playing, and exactly what happened in the finals can
happen.
Of course, many, many decks can have holes found in them. That's one
of the beauties of being able to discuss things after games. You can
work out how to best utilise your defences in the heat of the moment,
or how to better construct your deck, or which deal you should have
taken or...
> I'm in favor of this variety, and i want to try new cards and new decks.
What's that got to do with, well, anything?
You appear to have almost entirely misread the discussion that was
being had. No-one is saying anything against trying new cards and new
decks that I've seen.
Why do you think otherwise?
Reyda
> "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Assume that any deck you face has at least one card in it which is key
> to the deck's functioning. (This is not always true.) For a good
> number of decks, this can be true. For instance, a Soul Gem deck
> wouldn't appreciate having Soul Gem disappear.
Since you like real life examples : I faced Soul gems decks, and they rely
either on Magic of the smith or Vast wealth to get the gem into play. How do
you counter that with a D.I. ? =)
> Quite a few action
> modifiers can be a pain in the ass, because the card is still played,
> it just has no effect. So you can't repeat it. e.g. Day Operation.
It may be the real thing D.I. is worth for in my opinion...
> Being able to jam a particular combo, or kill a crucial card, at the
> right moment is a very useful thing indeed.
never said it was not the case =)
> You can stop, say, Temptation being
> played in the first place
Lucky you, your setite friend plays with only a couple temptations in his
deck ? =)
setites here pack say 7 or 8 so it does not make any difference, you are
tempted on the same turn or the following.
> (You might find that careful use of Bleeding the Vine can cause some
> difficulties, depending on the given decks.)
On the opposite, i play Bleeding the Vine on a regular basis and this card
is a marvel.
> When you find yourself at a table with TDT but no reason to use it,
> you find yourself with the ability to spend a master phase and your
> out of turn master phase for... one blood.
And that's a choice i made when a built a deck. Think about an OOT life in
the city. Is it such a great sacrifice ?
> No-one was saying - least of all me - that TDT can't be a playable
> card. Of course it can.
Thank you, that's what i wanted to hear from you =)
James Coupe
> "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> a écrit dans le message de
> news:opsfuyqi...@news.chello.hu...
>
>
> > > nor does it prevent your opponent to play another temptation,
> > > another mind rape, another graverobbin or another spirit marionette
> right
> > > away from their hand.
> >
> > Neither does Diamond Thunderbolt, by the way.
>
> Actually it does, that's why it is superior for me.
Well, no. It prevents *that* minion playing a second, assuming
they're still tapped (and have a different action available, as you
note). If there's a lot of Dominate flying around - Mind Rape, Grave
Robbing - you could well be seeing a chunk of fortitude too, since it
turns up with the Ventrue and Ventrue Antitribu and - since Freak
Drive is such a good card - it's far from unheard of to see people
skew a deck to pick up a bit of fortitude for that reason.
(Similarly, you see people skew a deck to include some dom/DOM/AUS if
they want some form of bounce, say.)
Certainly, some of the Serpentis/Setite cards could be followed up
with a different card. Perhaps they can't get off a Corruption now,
to steal it permanently, but they can certainly try the Temptation.
On the other hand, the goodness of it burning all the counters with
e.g. a Corruption or causing your opponents to spend pool on a ToGP or
Hostile Takeover is highly amusing.
If there are sufficient Mind Rape or Spirit Marionette's flying
around, however, for them to be a problem... You get the fun of a
situation where they can come at you again from someone else. (Harder
in the case of Obeah, of course.) If there aren't sufficient of them
flying around to make it a problem for you (e.g. they're there, but
they're there in small quantities) you could find yourself holding a
TDT for a long time, blocking yourself seeing other cards/longer
combos which may well turn out to be worth it, though perhaps not
(since the deck could well suffer from a poor shuffle/destructive (to
that deck) predator/whatever). Or, you know there's a TDT in your
hand, and you can see that your grand-prey (say) is playing an Obeah
deck with vampire stealing goodness. You draw one of your, say, two
TDTs in your first hand (or first 15 cards, say). Do you keep it in
hand? It's a tough call. (And obviously, the situation here is open
enough that it could be the right decision or the wrong decision,
depending almost entirely on other things.)
Which doesn't detract from the card's potential power, but it does
make it a tricky card to decide on keeping in your hand or including
to start with.
James Coupe
> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> a écrit dans le message de
> news:3yoej54...@newred.gradwell.net...
> > "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > Assume that any deck you face has at least one card in it which is key
> > to the deck's functioning. (This is not always true.) For a good
> > number of decks, this can be true. For instance, a Soul Gem deck
> > wouldn't appreciate having Soul Gem disappear.
>
> Since you like real life examples : I faced Soul gems decks, and they rely
> either on Magic of the smith or Vast wealth to get the gem into play. How do
> you counter that with a D.I. ? =)
Vast Wealth - you can't. But no card should be a panacaea to all
problems, really.
Magic of the Smith - well, if they're playing MotS as a counter to the
fact that they don't have many Soul Gems (which is often possible),
you can always D.I. the MotS if you want, which would have the same
effect, give or take. (Assuming that, in the perfect case, all the
MotS-es would just be more Soul Gems.)
Of course, some people like MotS for the superior - getting +3 stealth
is nothing to be sniffed at. In this case, D.I.-ing here might well
be a good option anyway since at least that means that when they do
pull the Soul Gem, they only have a normal +1 stealth by default,
which may make it easier for you or your predator or whoever to block.
The third option is to not play D.I. against the Soul Gem. This may
seem counter-intuitive, but it doesn't have to be.
For instance, you brought up the concept of Turbo-Arika. Assume a
deck is doing something along those lines, be it with Arika or
Camarilla Vitae Slave Lasombra or whatever. You may find that what
you really want to do is screw up one of those actions instead, or
screw up the Daring the Dawn or whatever. In the case, though the
Soul Gemn is clearly a key component of the deck, it's not necessarily
the absolute key.
(This is similar to ToGP trouble of old. ToGP itself was a fantastic
card, but its Master Card status meant that going for it itself may
well prove to be too narrow an area to counter directly. A more
flexible form of defence, which went for the Justicar with secondary
resource manipulation - votes possibly, combat possibly - was a
possibility, as was denial of pool gain.)
> > Quite a few action
> > modifiers can be a pain in the ass, because the card is still played,
> > it just has no effect. So you can't repeat it. e.g. Day Operation.
>
> It may be the real thing D.I. is worth for in my opinion...
Well, yes and no. It's certainly good against action modifiers - due
to the play 1 per action thing, and it actually stopping the action
taking place in the first place if you play it against an action card,
and the fact that you can't play it against cardless actions - but I
think there are certainly other areas it's good against.
Quite a few players - particularly on the toolbox side of things, but
also with regards "prayer" cards in otherwise focused decks - can't be
relied upon to replace that REALLY NASTY CARD they've just played.
Obvious examples of such things are the one or two Dramatic Upheavals
floating around a lot of decks, and in a toolbox-y deck, it could well
stall their plans that turn.
Preventing people from cycling can be fun, too. e.g. I have in my
hand a Dramatic Upheaval and a Bewitching Oration. You could D.I. my
Bewitching Oration, but I really just want to get both out of hand.
(If it passes, that's a bonus, but I really just want to cycle.)
D.I.-ing the Dramatic Upheaval can be more fun, as it stops the
possibility of my cycling the Bewitching Oration out of my hand.
(Of course, this is less good against bleed decks, where an inherent,
cardless bleed could be attempted. But swings and roundabouts are
good for the game.)
> > You can stop, say, Temptation being
> > played in the first place
>
> Lucky you, your setite friend plays with only a couple temptations in his
> deck ? =)
> setites here pack say 7 or 8 so it does not make any difference, you are
> tempted on the same turn or the following.
Oh, sure, that's perfectly possible. But TDT gives you no real huge
defence here either. All that happens is you can prevent it for one
turn, but the card is still there ready to be used whenever the
conditions are met again.
It could turn out to be six and two threes. Stopping one copy of
Temptation now may work out to about the same, in the confines of how
many turns the game has, as stopping one theft with it later. But if
they're using, as you say, 7 or 8 Temptations and throwing them at
multiple vampires... Not having it at all on one vampire would be
quite nice, and in a 90 card deck, you'd need to work through 45 cards
to hit four copies of Temptation (on average) to get, say, the three
vampires I have out. (Which seems to be a fair enough number to base
a deck around.)
>
> > (You might find that careful use of Bleeding the Vine can cause some
> > difficulties, depending on the given decks.)
>
> On the opposite, i play Bleeding the Vine on a regular basis and this card
> is a marvel.
Sorry, my meaning was somewhat unclear. Bleeding the Vine can cause
some difficulties for the deck playing the ToGP, Malkavian Dementia or
Hostile Takeover.
Of course, it can cause problems for the player playing it, since its
"upkeep" cost, to borrow a magic-ism, is a difficult balance to
strike. I do tend to place it on the "Very good" pile, but with a
"Enough rope to hang yourself" caveat. (Which is a balance I
generally like in cards.)
> > When you find yourself at a table with TDT but no reason to use it,
> > you find yourself with the ability to spend a master phase and your
> > out of turn master phase for... one blood.
>
> And that's a choice i made when a built a deck. Think about an OOT life in
> the city. Is it such a great sacrifice ?
Out of Turn, plus a master phase action used (and none given in
return), and in limited conditions (you don't necessarily get to
choose who, for instance), and without the negotiation options. And
if you are getting to 'choose' who it was (e.g. you blocked), then you
need to have left the vampire untapped or included some sort of wake,
neither of which are needed for Life in the City. Or you're probably
being rushed. And if you're being rushed, any competent rush deck
should be able to rip through the amount of blood you have or ignore
it - multiple strikes, multiple rounds, aggravated damage etc., so
having one extra blood isn't that great. It was established long ago,
and remains true to my mind, that a good rush deck should care about
the defence you have, but not the blood on the vampire. It might work
out differently in bruise and bleed (say), but either way, you're
either being rushed (which is often a problem anyway) or you needed to
be able to block with the vampire you want the blood on.
Or... you play LitC for "free" in terms of MPAs (unless it's
cancelled) and it's one blood to any ready vampire, no ifs, buts or
maybes. (The ready distinction isn't an issue, since vampires in
torpor don't enter combat anyway.)
> > No-one was saying - least of all me - that TDT can't be a playable
> > card. Of course it can.
>
> Thank you, that's what i wanted to hear from you =)
Why? I'd never said it's not playable.
You appeared to be having this mild fit about something that was going
on entirely in your own imagination, even when I'd said several times
that I wasn't saying what it was you thought I was saying. :-/