Five New Sabbat War Card texts
ChickLewis
in this release. I got them at the Pre-release event at Third Planet in
Southern California, which was really big fun. Please forgive me, but I’m
not conversant with the "official" way to do card data, so I hope this format
may suffice:
San Nicolas de los Servitas
Equipment Location
Requires Lasombra
Cost, Two blood
This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as
equipment while in play. Actions directed at this Lasombra cost an additional
pool. If this location is burned, the Lasombra with this card takes two damage
(damage not preventable). This card cannot be contested. Any card that would
contest this location is immediately burned before contesting begins.
Eternal Vigilance
Action
(no symbols)
Cost, One blood
Requires a ready Archbishop, Priscus, or Cardinal. +1 stealth
Put this card on the acting vampire. During an action, the Sabbat vampire with
this card can pay a blood to untap and attempt to block. Burn this card if
this Sabbat vampire goes to torpor.
Oubliette
Combat strike
Requires Otenebration
Cost, One blood
inf: Strike, Combat ends
sup: As above, and the opposing minion burns one blood (or life) after combat.
Templar
Political action
(no symbols)
(no cost)
Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Bishop, Archbishop, Priscus or
Cardinal at +1 stealth.
Choose a Sabbat vampire. Successful referendum makes the vampire a templar. A
templar may enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another Methuslah
as a +1 stealth D action. Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to remove
this ability as a +1 stealth political action.
Waste Management Operation
Master
Requires Brujah Antitribu
Cost , one pool
Master: unique location. Tap during your discard phase to move a card from
your ash heap to the bottom of your library.
"Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true."
- Lord Dunsany
Chick...@aol.com
3930 Cody Road
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 USA
day 818-718-1221
eve 818-784-8476
madma...@my-deja.com
salute you.
San Nicolas de los Servitas
Actions directed at this Lasombra cost an additional
pool. If this location is burned, the Lasombra with this card takes
two damage
> (damage not preventable).
Not very exciting.
> Eternal Vigilance
> Requires a ready Archbishop, Priscus, or Cardinal. +1 stealth
> Put this card on the acting vampire. During an action, the Sabbat
vampire with
> this card can pay a blood to untap and attempt to block. Burn this
card if
> this Sabbat vampire goes to torpor.
Nice, if you play with the older Sabbat vampires.
> Oubliette
> Cost, One blood
> inf: Strike, Combat ends
> sup: As above, and the opposing minion burns one blood (or life)
after combat.
OK, I guess.
> Templar
> Political action
> (no symbols)
> (no cost)
> Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Bishop, Archbishop,
Priscus or
> Cardinal at +1 stealth.
> Choose a Sabbat vampire. Successful referendum makes the vampire a
templar. A
> templar may enter combat with a ready vampire controlled by another
Methuslah
> as a +1 stealth D action. Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to
remove
> this ability as a +1 stealth political action.
Hey, this can be called by Bishops too. Good way to add +1 stealth
rush.
> Waste Management Operation
> Master: unique location. Tap during your discard phase to move a
card from
> your ash heap to the bottom of your library.
Hey, this must be abusable somehow. ;)
Thanks again,
Madman
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Noal McDonald
>> Waste Management Operation
>> Master: unique location. Tap during your discard phase to move
>> a card from your ash heap to the bottom of your library.
>
> Hey, this must be abusable somehow. ;)
It would be very handy in Black Cat/Vast Wealth/Saturday Night
Special/Dragon Breath Rounds decks as it puts the weapons back into your
library where you can use them. I can also see it coming in handy in
decks that go through their entire deck rather quickly. The limitation
to !Brujah keeps it from being too popular in Ravnos Horrid Reality
decks and Tzimisce Bauble decks.
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
cantila
James Coupe
> madma...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> Waste Management Operation
> >> Master: unique location. Tap during your discard phase to move
> >> a card from your ash heap to the bottom of your library.
> >
> > Hey, this must be abusable somehow. ;)
>
> It would be very handy in Black Cat/Vast Wealth/Saturday Night
> Special/Dragon Breath Rounds decks as it puts the weapons back into your
> library where you can use them.
If a Horrid Reality deck could get a !Bru in there (weenie or Clan Imp),
it could also be fun there. Helps you not get bothered about running out
of weapons too early, and allows you to recycle both of them, since it's a
"place on the bottom" not "exchange".
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him.
I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin
with him and the way he makes me feel?"
Marko Saari
cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:8thl6h$ob9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Could anyone post more card/vamps to drool over? :)
Sure.
Powerbase Madrid
Master: Unique Location. 1 pool
During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood bank if
it has less than 4 counters. Tap to giva a titled Sabbat vampire X
additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of counters on
this card. Any vampire controlled by another methuselah can take a D: action
to burn all the counters on this card.
Shadow Strike
Obtenebration Combat card. 1 blood
Strike: strenght ranged damage, with an optional maneuver
SUPerior: as above, with an optional press
Kindred Manipulation
!Ventrue Action Modiefier. 1 blood
Only usable during a referendum. Change the votes of a younger vampire to
votes of your choice.
I think all of these 3 cards are quite good.
- Guzmo
cantila
>
> > Could anyone post more card/vamps to drool over? :)
>
> Sure.
>
> Powerbase Madrid
> Master: Unique Location. 1 pool
> During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood
bank if
> it has less than 4 counters. Tap to giva a titled Sabbat vampire X
> additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of
counters on
> this card. Any vampire controlled by another methuselah can take a D:
action
> to burn all the counters on this card.
I have a feeling this card is going to be included in most Sabbat decks.
>
> Shadow Strike
> Obtenebration Combat card. 1 blood
> Strike: strenght ranged damage, with an optional maneuver
> SUPerior: as above, with an optional press
I like this one a lot because it's cool. Hmmm Art of Pain and Depravity
on a !Toreador with Obt/OBT :)
>
> Kindred Manipulation
> !Ventrue Action Modiefier. 1 blood
> Only usable during a referendum. Change the votes of a younger
vampire to
> votes of your choice.
Not bad at all, !Ventrues might not have many votes on their vampires,
but they surely have nice cards to disrupt any vote deck hehe. I like
it.
>
> I think all of these 3 cards are quite good.
>
How many new vamps are there in a starter deck (and there's 12 vamps
right?) and are there any vamps from the sterer deck clans in the
boosters as well? Anyone know how many vamps outside the 4 PCD clans
that has been printed of each clan?
oaflord
Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows
Nosferatu Antitribu
6 Capacity
ANI, OBF, POT
No special, but all three superior for 6, plain simple to the point!
Rave
Action Card
+1 Stealth Action
Move any amount of blood (or life) and/or equipment from the acting minion
to any ready vampires you control.
This card has HUGE possibilities ie. Black Cat...
Storage Annex
Master: Location
Put a card from your hand facedown (out of play) on this card when you play
it. You may look at the card at any time. During your master phase, you
may exchange a card in your hand for the card on this Storage Annex. If the
Storage Annex is stolen or burned, the card on it is stolen or burned as
well.
I'd like to know what other people think of this (I like it for reasons I'll
keep to myself until I try the deck and post a report), and if your hand
size is affected by the Annex or multiple Annex...(LSJ?)
Courier
Nosferatu Antitribu Ally
2 Blood from the recruiting vampire
Ally with 1 life. 0 Strength. 1 bleed.
Courier gets -1 intercept when attempting to block a vampire. When a minion
you control successfully bleeds, you may look at the top card of the library
of the Methuselah being bled, and you may tap the Courier to discard that
card.
Do I hear Steam Tunnels, Dirty Little Secrets getting a friend? ABUSE!!!
Once again, I would like to thank White Wolf for a great time!!
oAFLORD
aka
Thomas Kuster
Prince of Caledon
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste
Brought death into the world, and all our woe."
John Milton Paradise Lost. Book i. Line 1.
cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:8thl6h$ob9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
mik...@a_van_a.net
pre-release jam) --Thanks and congrats go out to Todd for setting up
and running the day's operations, to Steve for the confidence to
undertake the project, and to LSJ for all the rulemonging :)
Caliban
(Tzi, 6-cap, Art: Christopher Shy)
ANI AUS VIC.
Comments: Ox (as posted by Oafloard) isn't the only 6-cap with all
superior skills. I get a headache thinking of what Derek is going to
do with this vamp. Contest with me, probably. :)
Idalia, Prophet of Guadalahara
( !Malk, 4-cap, Art: Christopher Shy)
AUS dem. If Idalia successfully performs an equip action, untap her
at the end of the turn.
Comments: wow.
Peter Blaine
( !Ven, 4-cap, Art: William O'Connor)
aus dom for
Comments: One more gear for the Crypt Machine; except now there are
just enough (at least 5) vamps with aus/dom to throw some Telepathic
Counters into the library.
Wren
( !Gan, 4-cap, Art: Leif Jones)
cel obf pro
I also picked up an Art Scam, a Precognition, and a Command of the
Beast, so there are some nice cards that made it into reprint.
Speaking of reprints, one thing I noticed about the set is that most
of the art has a brighter, more vibrant look, that shows up nicely on
the reprinted cards. I don't know if that's a result of printing or
publishing, but it looks good.
Also in response to Oaflord's reply...Storage Annex is entirely fun.
Burn it or steal it (with the card it contains), or use it as a an
extra discard. I think someone mentioned Powerbase:Montreal, which is
another entirely fun card.
cantila
> Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows
> Nosferatu Antitribu
> 6 Capacity
> ANI, OBF, POT
>
> No special, but all three superior for 6, plain simple to the point!
I like plain and simple vamps like this, they're needed too.
>
> Rave
> Action Card
> +1 Stealth Action
> Move any amount of blood (or life) and/or equipment from the acting
minion
> to any ready vampires you control.
>
> This card has HUGE possibilities ie. Black Cat...
I don't know if you can call it HUGE possibilities. But surely it has
it's uses. If you use it with Black Cat the disadvantage is that it
takes 3 turns to equip her twice, while if you let another vamp takes
her equipment you do it in two turns. The good thing is that if you
want, you can always have an untapped vampire ready to block with an
equipment Black Cat has brought out. In some cases this can be a very
good thing. Too bad you cannot transfer blood to allies and turn it
into life ;) Hmm I wonder how usable this card can be as a secondary HG
sort of. Like using this card on Renegade Garou that heals himself
anyway. But it probably not worth the risk.
>
> Storage Annex
> Master: Location
> Put a card from your hand facedown (out of play) on this card when
you play
> it. You may look at the card at any time. During your master phase,
you
> may exchange a card in your hand for the card on this Storage Annex.
If the
> Storage Annex is stolen or burned, the card on it is stolen or burned
as
> well.
Wow THIS was a cool card! Awesome.
>
> I'd like to know what other people think of this (I like it for
reasons I'll
> keep to myself until I try the deck and post a report), and if your
hand
> size is affected by the Annex or multiple Annex...(LSJ?)
>
> Courier
> Nosferatu Antitribu Ally
> 2 Blood from the recruiting vampire
> Ally with 1 life. 0 Strength. 1 bleed.
> Courier gets -1 intercept when attempting to block a vampire. When a
minion
> you control successfully bleeds, you may look at the top card of the
library
> of the Methuselah being bled, and you may tap the Courier to discard
that
> card.
>
I like this card a lot too. Pretty nasty that it doesn't cost any pool
to play and it isn't even unique. This opens up for some real nasty
tactics with Night Moves :)
> Do I hear Steam Tunnels, Dirty Little Secrets getting a friend?
ABUSE!!!
>
> Once again, I would like to thank White Wolf for a great time!!
>
> oAFLORD
> aka
> Thomas Kuster
> Prince of Caledon
>
Thanks for your contribution :)
cantila
mike_p@a_van_a.net wrote:
> Here are some new vamps I drew from boosters (from the Atlanta
> pre-release jam) --Thanks and congrats go out to Todd for setting up
> and running the day's operations, to Steve for the confidence to
> undertake the project, and to LSJ for all the rulemonging :)
>
> Caliban
> (Tzi, 6-cap, Art: Christopher Shy)
> ANI AUS VIC.
> Comments: Ox (as posted by Oafloard) isn't the only 6-cap with all
> superior skills. I get a headache thinking of what Derek is going to
> do with this vamp. Contest with me, probably. :)
Sweet vampire, alhought I think the existing cap 6 Tzi is still very
competitive and maybe generally more tempting to include, at least I
think it will be for me.
>
> Idalia, Prophet of Guadalahara
> ( !Malk, 4-cap, Art: Christopher Shy)
> AUS dem. If Idalia successfully performs an equip action, untap her
> at the end of the turn.
> Comments: wow.
>
> Peter Blaine
> ( !Ven, 4-cap, Art: William O'Connor)
> aus dom for
> Comments: One more gear for the Crypt Machine; except now there are
> just enough (at least 5) vamps with aus/dom to throw some Telepathic
> Counters into the library.
Good to see some low cap vamps, they're always needed.
>
> Wren
> ( !Gan, 4-cap, Art: Leif Jones)
> cel obf pro
I like this one, cel and pro can be quite nasty. But it costs mucho
blood, so Feral Heart is certainly useful here.
>
> I also picked up an Art Scam, a Precognition, and a Command of the
> Beast, so there are some nice cards that made it into reprint.
Although I'm not sure about Command of the Beast (a card I'd like to
have more of, but I think in general there's probably more useful dom
cards to reprint that wasn't) the other cards are nice to see reprinted.
>
> Also in response to Oaflord's reply...Storage Annex is entirely fun.
> Burn it or steal it (with the card it contains), or use it as a an
> extra discard. I think someone mentioned Powerbase:Montreal, which is
> another entirely fun card.
What does Powerbase:Montreal do?
LSJ
> Storage Annex
> Master: Location
> Put a card from your hand facedown (out of play) on this card when
> you play it. You may look at the card at any time. During your
> master phase, you may exchange a card in your hand for the card on
> this Storage Annex. If the Storage Annex is stolen or burned, the
> card on it is stolen or burned as well.
>
> size is affected by the Annex or multiple Annex...(LSJ?)
No. It says nothing about your hand size.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
hamd...@my-deja.com
> Rave
> Action Card
> +1 Stealth Action
> Move any amount of blood (or life) and/or equipment from the acting
minion
> to any ready vampires you control.
>
> This card has HUGE possibilities ie. Black Cat...
I thought that if weapons were equipped by Black Cat and passed on to
another minion, the outstanding 1 pool has to be payed - i.e. the
special only applies if Black Cat uses the weapon.
The Lasombra
hamd...@my-deja.com wrote the second part:
> > Rave
> > Action Card
> > +1 Stealth Action
> > Move any amount of blood (or life) and/or equipment
> > from the acting minion to any ready vampires you control.
> >
> > This card has HUGE possibilities ie. Black Cat...
>
> I thought that if weapons were equipped by Black Cat and passed on to
> another minion, the outstanding 1 pool has to be payed - i.e. the
> special only applies if Black Cat uses the weapon.
Wow, where'd you get that one?
You only pay for equipment when it comes into play, or when
required by another card, ie Peace Treaty. Moving/Transferring
equipment cards has nothing to do with paying costs.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://lasombra.tripod.com
http://legbiter.tripod.com
James Coupe
> > Powerbase Madrid
> > Master: Unique Location. 1 pool
> > During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood
> bank if
> > it has less than 4 counters. Tap to giva a titled Sabbat vampire X
> > additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of
> counters on
> > this card. Any vampire controlled by another methuselah can take a D:
> action
> > to burn all the counters on this card.
>
> I have a feeling this card is going to be included in most Sabbat decks.
*pfeh*
Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
relatively intercept heavy deck.
James Coupe
> Speaking of reprints, one thing I noticed about the set is that most
> of the art has a brighter, more vibrant look, that shows up nicely on
> the reprinted cards.
It is.
Anam, were she around, would be able to confirm exactly what went wrong
where but, basically, the printing of Sabbat under Wizards ended up with a
*lot* of pictures (perhaps all) coming out very dark indeed.
> Also in response to Oaflord's reply...Storage Annex is entirely fun.
> Burn it or steal it (with the card it contains), or use it as a an
> extra discard.
Rob Treasure has already started making noises about its abusive
potential.
Be Afraid. (tm)
> I think someone mentioned Powerbase:Montreal, which is
> another entirely fun card.
Not entirely fun, but potentially so, yes. It does have sensible uses.
Myself, I rate the Museum of High Art, Atlanta, as mostly fun, except for
heavy intercept decks. I might be tempted to throw it in a few decks,
just because.
James Coupe
> > Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows
> > Nosferatu Antitribu
> > 6 Capacity
> > ANI, OBF, POT
> >
> > No special, but all three superior for 6, plain simple to the point!
>
> I like plain and simple vamps like this, they're needed too.
There are a lot of them. Myself, I'd have preferred a *little*
variation. Maybe a Gitane clone for the Lasombra (give them a Bishopdom,
say) at 7. A few sixes for the harder clans, a 7 with a special for some
of the others.
The Cookie Cutter Sixes are useful but kinda boring.
Frederick Scott
James Coupe wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, cantila wrote:
>
> > > Powerbase Madrid
> > > Master: Unique Location. 1 pool
> > > During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood
> > > bank if it has less than 4 counters. Tap to giva a titled Sabbat vampire
> X
> > > additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of
> > > counters on this card. Any vampire controlled by another methuselah
> > > can take a D: action to burn all the counters on this card.
> >
> > I have a feeling this card is going to be included in most Sabbat decks.
>
> *pfeh*
>
> Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
> popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
> relatively intercept heavy deck.
I think the answer is that if folks want to spend minion actions going
and raiding your votes and you don't have the minion free or the
intercept in hand to stop them, then just let them. If you're running
a heavy vote deck, presumedly this card isn't your only source of
votes so you can sustain its temporary loss and still advance your
position. On the other hand, if it's your only source, that should only
be because you're not depending that heavily on your votes, so just
do other things while you're waiting for the votes to regrow.
It really is a good card, IMHO. I can it being contested frequently.
Fred
Derek Ray
wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, cantila wrote:
>
>> > Powerbase Madrid
>> > Master: Unique Location. 1 pool
>> > During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood
>> bank if
>> > it has less than 4 counters. Tap to giva a titled Sabbat vampire X
>> > additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of
>> counters on
>> > this card. Any vampire controlled by another methuselah can take a D:
>> action
>> > to burn all the counters on this card.
>>
>> I have a feeling this card is going to be included in most Sabbat decks.
>
>*pfeh*
>
>Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
>popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
>relatively intercept heavy deck.
(shrug) Because you burn the counters, not the card, and it doesn't
take any effort to put the counters on the card? :) Especially if
you have a few cheap Bishops floating around.
-- Derek
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
LSJ
> I thought that if weapons were equipped by Black Cat and passed on to
> another minion, the outstanding 1 pool has to be payed - i.e. the
> special only applies if Black Cat uses the weapon.
No. The cost is only paid when the card is played.
The cost increases when passed along, but the increased cost is not
paid, since the card is not being played at that time.
The increased cost is only interesting for cards that care what the
cost of the card is - like Peace Treaty and Illegal Search and Seizure.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
aley...@my-deja.com
> Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows
> Nosferatu Antitribu
> 6 Capacity
> ANI, OBF, POT
> No special, but all three superior for 6, plain simple to the point!
There are actually 2 others I've seen so far just like that, a 6 cap
all superior disc (3 of them).. One for !Malkavian (Dolphin.. something
like that), and one for the Tzimisce (Caliban).. I'm assuming, but
maybe there's now one all sup, 6 cap for each clan.. Who knows..
good stuff though.. Rave is definitely a notable card...
Adam
mik...@a_van_a.net
>What does Powerbase:Montreal do?
It's a clanless, zero-cost, stealable Eco-Terrorists: During your
influence phase, you may move one blood from blood bank to one of your
uncontrolled vamps. Any vamp can steal the location as a D action.
Since influence comes after minion phase, the theiving methuselah
should be able to use it in the influence phase of the same turn.
James Coupe
> > Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
> > popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
> > relatively intercept heavy deck.
>
> I think the answer is that if folks want to spend minion actions going
> and raiding your votes and you don't have the minion free or the
> intercept in hand to stop them, then just let them.
However, if you are pretty sure you're deck isn't going to be able to
defend it, why bother in the first place?
Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
James Coupe
> >Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
> >popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
> >relatively intercept heavy deck.
>
> (shrug) Because you burn the counters, not the card, and it doesn't
> take any effort to put the counters on the card? :) Especially if
> you have a few cheap Bishops floating around.
Yeah, but a pool, a deck slot, a hand slot.... a lot of decks won't really
want to have to waste those (e.g. the PDB6 rush decks, done Sabbat
War-stylee [sic]).
Derek Ray
wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Derek Ray wrote:
>
>> >Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
>> >popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
>> >relatively intercept heavy deck.
>>
>> (shrug) Because you burn the counters, not the card, and it doesn't
>> take any effort to put the counters on the card? :) Especially if
>> you have a few cheap Bishops floating around.
>
>Yeah, but a pool, a deck slot, a hand slot.... a lot of decks won't really
>want to have to waste those (e.g. the PDB6 rush decks, done Sabbat
>War-stylee [sic]).
But those are awful rare these days. Most decks on your side and on
our little corner of the pond DO have the spare slot - and certainly a
bruise-and-bleed deck would have a spare pool for this sort of thing,
just to give itself a little help in the voting world.
Also, as someone else pointed out, people taking an action to burn the
counters off the card is an action that they aren't taking to bleed
you or beat up your guys or actually do something USEFUL. =) Even if
a hostile vote deck stops to burn the counters off your card so it can
pass its next vote, it's better than it being able to drop TWO of that
next vote with the other action. And if they never burn the counters
off the card, well, look! you have some votes!
Frederick Scott
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Frederick Scott wrote:
> > > Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
> > > popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying a
> > > relatively intercept heavy deck.
> >
> > I think the answer is that if folks want to spend minion actions going
> > and raiding your votes and you don't have the minion free or the
> > intercept in hand to stop them, then just let them.
>
> However, if you are pretty sure you're deck isn't going to be able to
> defend it, why bother in the first place?
Because you cost them multiple minion actions for only one pool
and one M.P.A. That's not too bad for being the worst that could
(normally) happen.
> Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
Are we talking about the same card? There's no such escape
clause built into Power Base: Madrid. Sure, if you have a Kine
Dominance or something, by all means use it. But choosing to
steal PB:M (vs. any other location) is the same kind of judgement
you'd use to put one in your deck in the first place.
Fred
James Coupe
> > Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
>
> Are we talking about the same card? There's no such escape
> clause built into Power Base: Madrid.
I didn't say there was.
> Sure, if you have a Kine
> Dominance or something, by all means use it.
Disputed Territory works just as well, and PB: Madrid is likely to be a
prime target for a political deck.
Or just burn it. Arson etc. are frequently found cards, IME.
cantila
cantila
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Frederick Scott wrote:
> > > Why waste a pool, a deck slot and a possible contest (if it's that
> > > popular) on a card you probably can't defend unless you're paying
a
> > > relatively intercept heavy deck.
> >
> > I think the answer is that if folks want to spend minion actions
going
> > and raiding your votes and you don't have the minion free or the
> > intercept in hand to stop them, then just let them.
>
> However, if you are pretty sure you're deck isn't going to be able to
> defend it, why bother in the first place?
>
> Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
With defend,, do you mean defend against Disputed Teritory or against
the raids to brun the blood? If the latter, it's not really abig deal.
My experience is that people rarily bother to take actions to burn a
card unless it's really having an impact on the game. And the raids on
this card only burns the counters that will automatically be renewed
anyway, I think people will be pretty reluctant to waste an action on
that. If they do, that's only good for you since most likely it was a
your predator/prey that made the action and that means a tapped minion
for them. And the best thing is, that they'll have to do it all over in
a few turns.
cantila
> > > Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
> >
> > Are we talking about the same card? There's no such escape
> > clause built into Power Base: Madrid.
>
> I didn't say there was.
>
> > Sure, if you have a Kine
> > Dominance or something, by all means use it.
>
> Disputed Territory works just as well, and PB: Madrid is likely to be
a
> prime target for a political deck.
>
> Or just burn it. Arson etc. are frequently found cards, IME.
>
IMO I think this is a flawed argument. If you think like this you could
never include a useful location in your deck "out of fear for having it
stolen". If you're so worried about it, then get intercept so you can
block it or just never play with useful locations....
cantila
> Also, as someone else pointed out, people taking an action to burn the
> counters off the card is an action that they aren't taking to bleed
> you or beat up your guys or actually do something USEFUL. =) Even if
> a hostile vote deck stops to burn the counters off your card so it can
> pass its next vote, it's better than it being able to drop TWO of that
> next vote with the other action. And if they never burn the counters
> off the card, well, look! you have some votes!
It amazes me how we *can* think alike sometimes ;)
cantila
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, cantila wrote:
>
> > > Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows
> > > Nosferatu Antitribu
> > > 6 Capacity
> > > ANI, OBF, POT
> > >
> > > No special, but all three superior for 6, plain simple to the
point!
> >
> > I like plain and simple vamps like this, they're needed too.
>
> There are a lot of them. Myself, I'd have preferred a *little*
> variation. Maybe a Gitane clone for the Lasombra (give them a
Bishopdom,
> say) at 7. A few sixes for the harder clans, a 7 with a special for
some
> of the others.
>
> The Cookie Cutter Sixes are useful but kinda boring.
>
Yes but before SW they were pretty rare (I think only 2 vamps). I don't
think they should make many more of these though, if all clans had them
it would be boring.
James Coupe
> > However, if you are pretty sure you're deck isn't going to be able to
> > defend it, why bother in the first place?
> >
> > Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
>
> With defend,, do you mean defend against Disputed Teritory or against
> the raids to brun the blood?
Either is possible.
> If the latter, it's not really abig deal.
Not really. A weenie deck could really cause you havoc and whilst they're
tempered by the new environment, they're still playable.
> My experience is that people rarily bother to take actions to burn a
> card unless it's really having an impact on the game.
If it's good, it *will* have an impact on the game.
If it's bad, why put it in your deck?
James Coupe
> > > Dominance or something, by all means use it.
> >
> > Disputed Territory works just as well, and PB: Madrid is likely to be
> a
> > prime target for a political deck.
> >
> > Or just burn it. Arson etc. are frequently found cards, IME.
> >
>
> IMO I think this is a flawed argument. If you think like this you could
> never include a useful location in your deck "out of fear for having it
> stolen". If you're so worried about it, then get intercept so you can
> block it or just never play with useful locations....
Which is exactly what I've been saying. If you can't defend it with
intercept, you don't want to hand a card that is useful to all decks onto
the table. Something like, say, Backways is a different matter - it's
specific to one clan, they may not be on the table, you balance the
probabilities.
There is no deck to which PB: Madrid can't add some benefit, since it is
very, very rare not to have a political deck (that is, a deck with even
minor politics in it) on the table.
If you can defend it, cool. But I think any player just putting it in a
deck because they can, as was suggested at the start, would be very, very
foolish indeed.
James Coupe
> think they should make many more of these though, if all clans had them
> it would be boring.
To the best of my knowledge, and the number of boosters I've opened
suggests this to be likely, there is one for all of them.
This is why I believed them "boring".
cantila
100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, cantila wrote:
> > > However, if you are pretty sure you're deck isn't going to be
able to
> > > defend it, why bother in the first place?
> > >
> > > Just steal someone else's if it's that popular.
> >
> > With defend,, do you mean defend against Disputed Teritory or
against
> > the raids to brun the blood?
>
> Either is possible.
>
> > If the latter, it's not really abig deal.
>
> Not really. A weenie deck could really cause you havoc and whilst
they're
> tempered by the new environment, they're still playable.
Yes but it's *still* a wasted action. If a weenie deck would try burn
the counters I'd be only happy to let them (unless I desperately need
the counters for a vote that I plan to call), because it means a mnion
less to bleeed me with.
>
> > My experience is that people rarily bother to take actions to burn a
> > card unless it's really having an impact on the game.
>
> If it's good, it *will* have an impact on the game.
>
> If it's bad, why put it in your deck?
It's not bad. But the effect on the game isn't as easily perceived as
Strained Vitae Supply for example, because you can't know what votes I
intend to use the PB for (if any at all, I might use it only as a
defence against other people's votes).
cantila
100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
Why would it be? If you play a political deck you're not likely to have
it votes away through a Disputed Territory, so then they'll have to
take actions to burn the blood, which are more or less wasted actions.
Only problem would be Arson, but there's usually tons of other
locations that people rather consider to burn. The prey of a Meth using
Backways would for example like to get rid of that one (esp if the
Gangrel is playing with Dominate and the prey doesn't have that much
intercept) than to try burn my PB if I were his prey since I could pull
through my most critical votes even without my PB (because my deck is a
political one). If I don't have a vote deck thenthe PB can be used to
try disrupt votes directed against me, Disputed Territory included. If
I still don't succeed, he's at least wasted an action to take control
over my PB (an action he'd otherwise possibly use to take another of my
locations like Elder Library. Thanks to PB he now needs to first take
my PB or at least burn the vounters on it, in order to get the votes to
take my EL). In a worst acse scenario he wasted an action and a DT
(that he could have used for better purposes, since if he plays a
political deck any actions trying to uphold his vote lock are wasted
actions). If my PB helps him to get a vote lock then he could possibly
have achieved it anyway through other means, and it should also be hard
for him to pull through a DT when I have my PB to vote agaisnt it.
Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
into play, and political decks usually can't pull out that much stealth
for an Arson. In conclusion, you can never be safe. But that applies to
every location, and IMO PB isn't powerful enough in *other* people's
view to have them try get rid of it asap, whilst the PB is deifnately
good enough to be included in most decks.
When I said location having an impact I used the word "really" to
emphasize that people don't bother to burn even good locations unless
it affects them so much that they lose the game if they don't burn it.
The PB could be such a card in *some* cases but in many other not,
since when it comes to votes people tend to think "I block the
political action instead when he tries to play it, instead of burning
the blood on the PB all the time", a thought that's not so dumb either.
Why waste actions trying to get rid of a card if you're not even sure
the card will have an impact on the game? (i.e. if I inlcude it in a
non-political deck, only a political deck would be interested in trying
to get rid of it, adn even then it's quite doubtful since they will
have BO's etc to help them get through their votes, PB or not).
Frederick Scott
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, cantila wrote:
> > > > Sure, if you have a Kine
> > > > Dominance or something, by all means use it.
> > >
> > > Disputed Territory works just as well, and PB: Madrid is likely to be
> > > a prime target for a political deck.
> > >
> > > Or just burn it. Arson etc. are frequently found cards, IME.
> >
> > IMO I think this is a flawed argument. If you think like this you could
> > never include a useful location in your deck "out of fear for having it
> > stolen". If you're so worried about it, then get intercept so you can
> > block it or just never play with useful locations....
>
> Which is exactly what I've been saying. If you can't defend it with
> intercept, you don't want to hand a card that is useful to all decks onto
> the table. Something like, say, Backways is a different matter - it's
> specific to one clan, they may not be on the table, you balance the
> probabilities.
Still a poor argument. Or at least, I don't know about your metagame,
but if I was paranoid about Arsons, Unnatural Disasters, theivery, and
the like, I'm pretty sure my play would suffer more than if I just lived
with it. It just doesn't happen enough and I don't expect it to happen
very often. (Not that it isn't irritating when it does happen. Especially
Disputed Territory, that really sucks.)
Fred
Xian
"cantila" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:8tp9nj$toi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
> into play,
No.
Xian, jack-booted thug
--
I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold.
A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart.
--_Shellshock_, New Order
www.waste.org/~xian
Derek Ray
>
>"cantila" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
>news:8tp9nj$toi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
>> into play,
>
>No.
>
>Xian, jack-booted thug
I have stationary intercept cards in all my decks. In a lot of them,
they look just like the vampires.
"Hugo, here, would like to take an action to intercept Sir Walter Nash
before he gets to call any votes."
Which makes me curious: how many jack-booted thugs do we HAVE around
here, anyway?
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
Noal McDonald
>> Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept
>> cards to put into play,
>
> No.
> Xian, jack-booted thug
I agree with Xian. That's absolute hogwash.
Noal,
(another) Jack-booted thug
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
James Coupe
> >> Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept
> >> cards to put into play,
> >
> > No.
> > Xian, jack-booted thug
>
> I agree with Xian. That's absolute hogwash.
Mostly hogwash. As an all round defence, intercept is useful against
votes, against bleed etc.
However, many decks have alternative and preferred ways (for that deck) to
achieve the same ends.
Xian
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7hn00tkms31vn2mbu...@4ax.com...
> "Hugo, here, would like to take an action to intercept Sir Walter Nash
> before he gets to call any votes."
Hahaha!!! That made me smile.
> Which makes me curious: how many jack-booted thugs do we HAVE around
> here, anyway?
I'm not sure. I believe the term was originally applied a couple of years
ago, before I took my sabbatical from the newsgroup. At the time, I believe
included in the roll-call was Peter (of course), James Hamblin, myself, Josh
Duffin, and a few of you Atlanta Crew, IIRC.
I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained that many full
converts since then, but I believe that we are more feared...
Xian
Robert Goudie
news:Jb_L5.689$q81.2...@news.uswest.net...
> > here, anyway?
>
> I'm not sure. I believe the term was originally applied a couple of years
> ago, before I took my sabbatical from the newsgroup. At the time, I
believe
> included in the roll-call was Peter (of course), James Hamblin, myself,
Josh
> Duffin, and a few of you Atlanta Crew, IIRC.
>
> I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained that many
full
> converts since then, but I believe that we are more feared...
At GenCon I've traditionally made my championships deck choice based on
whether James Hamblin or Peter were playing in the event. Let's just say I
wouldn't have played a deck with 20 majesties in it if they were at the
event.
-Robert
James Coupe
> I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained that many full
> converts since then, but I believe that we are more feared...
I think the fear is more of you destroying my vampires than sweeping a
table. :)
Joshua Duffin
Dammit! Why do I always get left out of these namedrops?
Xian remembered me, which is some consolation. But I was
playing the industry standard Bru/!Bru pot/cel rush deck at
Nationals at GenCon this year... okay, so I totally sucked
in terms of getting VPs for some reason, but still... never
break up the Trinity; the Holy Ghost will get upset. ;-)
Hey, while we're here: anyone have any luck with potence-only
rush decks lately? I threw something together in an attempt
to make my crypt even smaller and faster, but so far it hasn't
been working all that well. It's only got a few Fake Outs for
maneuvers, which could be a problem, but I'm not really sure
that that's it... any ideas?
Josh
jack-booted blasphemer
Noal McDonald
>> Which makes me curious: how many jack-booted thugs do we
>> HAVE around here, anyway?
>
> I'm not sure. I believe the term was originally applied a couple
> of years ago, before I took my sabbatical from the newsgroup.
> At the time, I believe included in the roll-call was Peter (of
> course), James Hamblin, myself, Josh Duffin, and a few of you
> Atlanta Crew, IIRC.
I wear jack boots, too. I guess that makes me one since we all know how
much of an asshole I can be when I don't get my coffee. *grin*
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Noal McDonald
> I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained
> that many full converts since then, but I believe that we are
> more feared...
Hrm. The closest thing I've come at a big tournament was that Brujah
Amaranth Pitch Deck I played at Origins a few years back. I'm more of a
Bruise & Bleed or Bruise & Graverob person. Maybe I'll make a pure-rush
deck for Ravnos.
With the new cards, I'm forseeing some great Lasombra Pitch Decks using
Thoughts Betrayed, Potence pre-range and that Obtenebration card that
does "strength ranged damage". Telepathic Tracking is going to be great
for Tzimisce and Tremere decks.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
cantila
100...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, cantila wrote:
> > Yes but before SW they were pretty rare (I think only 2 vamps). I
don't
> > think they should make many more of these though, if all clans had
them
> > it would be boring.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, and the number of boosters I've opened
> suggests this to be likely, there is one for all of them.
>
> This is why I believed them "boring".
>
One for all Sabbat clans or just one for each of the PCD-clans? Of what
I saw at Ethan's site there's not one for all clans I think (although
the list isn't complete) but if that's the case then it's not fun at
all. Even 4 such vamps is starting to get a bit too much since they're
all sabbat. I think there should be a few for the Camarilla (say 2 or
3) and as many for Sabbat and then maybe one for each Independent
(since they need it (but Ravnos have one already so they don't need
another) unless they get spiced up a lot in the Final Nights.
But too late to change now I guess.
cantila
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote:
> > I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained
> > that many full converts since then, but I believe that we are
> > more feared...
>
> Hrm. The closest thing I've come at a big tournament was that Brujah
> Amaranth Pitch Deck I played at Origins a few years back. I'm more of
a
> Bruise & Bleed or Bruise & Graverob person. Maybe I'll make a pure-
rush
> deck for Ravnos.
>
> With the new cards, I'm forseeing some great Lasombra Pitch Decks
using
> Thoughts Betrayed, Potence pre-range and that Obtenebration card that
> does "strength ranged damage". Telepathic Tracking is going to be
great
> for Tzimisce and Tremere decks.
>
> Regards,
> Noal
Yeah I'm still excited over Telepathic Tracking! I can't wait to try it
out with Tzimisce and Tremere (who happen to be my favourite clans as
well (but I suspect Lasombra will be one now too)).
Robert Goudie
news:8tq0ov$jh7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[clip]
> > At GenCon I've traditionally made my championships deck choice
> > based on whether James Hamblin or Peter were playing in the event.
Let's
> > just say I wouldn't have played a deck with 20 majesties in it if they
> > were at the event.
>
> Dammit! Why do I always get left out of these namedrops?
> Xian remembered me, which is some consolation. But I was
> playing the industry standard Bru/!Bru pot/cel rush deck at
> Nationals at GenCon this year... okay, so I totally sucked
> in terms of getting VPs for some reason, but still... never
> break up the Trinity; the Holy Ghost will get upset. ;-)
Oh, I remembered you. I just don't think of you as being synonymous with
Potence Rush. I'll be sure to get you in my next namedrop.
-Robert
Mathieu
deck, in boosters, or both?
Mathieu
Joshua Duffin
Thank you. ;-)
For the record, the Ithaca Jyhad group (at the Cornell games
club) that developed the heavy-Immortal Grapple POT/CEL, POT/
OBF, POT/ANI, etc. rush combat theory (not to imply that we
were necessarily the first, but it certainly didn't seem very
prevalent at the time - back then we still had to repeatedly
explain what Immortal Grapple did at most tournaments) included
me, Peter Bakija, and James Hamblin. James actually didn't start
playing POT rush until after I did (and long after Peter did -
Peter was by far the first and put together his collection of
Grapples by convincing us all to trade them to him because they
were useless), but has since become a devoted rush guru and
clearly has done a better job of staying in the public eye than
I have. ;-) Maybe it's because I haven't been as bloody-minded
in playing the deck all the time and everywhere, and instead
using other things that I think might be better at winning. heh.
I've heard that you West Coast types have had a fair amount
of POT rush from time to time, but do you know what the
history looked like out there? Did it develop independently
of our versions, or was it inspired by them, or something else?
I think the old Madison Wisconsin crew probably came up with
the concept at least as early as we did too - that Adrian
Sullivan has an impressive talent for deck design.
later on,
Josh
Steve Bucy
>In article <Ew_L5.10307$Pw6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
(snip)
>Hey, while we're here: anyone have any luck with potence-only
>rush decks lately? I threw something together in an attempt
>to make my crypt even smaller and faster, but so far it hasn't
>been working all that well. It's only got a few Fake Outs for
>maneuvers, which could be a problem, but I'm not really sure
>that that's it... any ideas?
Interestingly we have not seen much since our last Los Angeles tournament
with Alex Harmon. I have been messing with a nasty potence/protean thing,
Robert had an increased strength Burning Wrath deck a while back, and I
believe Robyn Merril has been throwing some gates & sewer lids, but that's
about it. I haven't even seen Robert's weenie potence deck recently. I think
the revival of Obedience and the good amount of fortitude that is still
hanging around our group has really has really killed the potence-only
stuff.
Steve Bucy
--
"The only human commander to survive combat
with the Minbari fleet is behind me. You are in front of me.
If you value your lives be somewhere else!" - Delenn
Check out http://vtesinla.org/ for all V:TES information in Los Angeles
area.
cantila
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/decks.htm the card ins't in any of
the pre-cons.
James Hamblin
cantila wrote:
>
> > If you can defend it, cool. But I think any player just putting it
> > in a deck because they can, as was suggested at the start, would be very,
> > very foolish indeed.
>
> Why would it be?
Because not every deck needs this card.
> If you play a political deck you're not likely to have
> it votes away through a Disputed Territory, so then they'll have to
> take actions to burn the blood, which are more or less wasted actions.
If you don't care that people are coming and taking the counters off of
it, why are you playing with it in the first place?
> Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
> into play,
Wrong.
You're saying "every deck needs this PB" and "every deck needs
intercept" but you're just wrong. A rush combat deck has no use for
either of these things, for example. A weenie presence bleed deck
couldn't care less about having intercept or voting power.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"She does raindances and she knows the score /
All the back alley banjo boys lie down and die on the floor."
-- Shivaree
James Hamblin
Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> At GenCon I've traditionally made my championships deck choice based on
> whether James Hamblin or Peter were playing in the event. Let's just say I
> wouldn't have played a deck with 20 majesties in it if they were at the
> event.
Aha! So I must have fooled people by playing with a dubious Gangrel
deck instead of my tried-and-true rush deck. I'll know better next
time.
James Hamblin
Joshua Duffin wrote:
>
> Dammit! Why do I always get left out of these namedrops?
> Xian remembered me, which is some consolation. But I was
> playing the industry standard Bru/!Bru pot/cel rush deck at
> Nationals at GenCon this year... okay, so I totally sucked
> in terms of getting VPs for some reason, but still... never
> break up the Trinity; the Holy Ghost will get upset. ;-)
I guess Peter is The Father and I'm The Son? Besides, Josh. Everybody
knows I invented the rush combat deck. :)
> Hey, while we're here: anyone have any luck with potence-only
> rush decks lately? I threw something together in an attempt
> to make my crypt even smaller and faster, but so far it hasn't
> been working all that well. It's only got a few Fake Outs for
> maneuvers, which could be a problem, but I'm not really sure
> that that's it... any ideas?
I think that such a deck needs Disarms, Disarms, and more Disarms. That
way it can be a lot more focused.
For example, in my !Bru deck, a model combat looks like:
Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Immortal Grapple, Undead Strength, Blur,
Taste of Vitae, Decapitate
In a weenie Pot deck, you can dispense with the Blur, the US, and the
Decapitate.
I really want to make a deck with like 12 Disarms and see what kind of
havoc I could wreak.
Peter D Bakija
>>Which makes me curious: how many jack-booted thugs do we HAVE around
here, anyway?>>
Yeah, I'm still here, and my Pot Rush deck, completely devoid of untaps,
intercept, vote defense, bleed bounce (and doesn't have any spare deck slots to
spare...), and anything other than pure, unadulterated pre-emptive violence is
still winning occasionally (heck, it swept the last time I played it :-)
I figure the fewer people understand that pure Rush combat works, the better
chance I have to win...
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"Why so many swords?"
"I must kill many."
-Kikuchiyo
Ian Lee
What do people think of Disarm? Personal opinion - the card is cheesy (too
easy relative to its power or too powerful relative to its ease, whichever).
Xian
James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
[first of multiple replys in this thread...bored at work]
[weenie potence]
> I think that such a deck needs Disarms, Disarms, and more Disarms.
> That way it can be a lot more focused.
Yeah, Disarms are soooo good. I finally have four now, and I'm
thrilled. Although my weenie potence deck is almost Peter's
exactly...very very minor variations (Watenda, 2x Rampage, Hand of
Conrad), the Disarms are so much nicer than PF or anything else.
> For example, in my !Bru deck, a model combat looks like:
>
> Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Immortal Grapple, Undead Strength, Blur,
> Taste of Vitae, Decapitate
>
> In a weenie Pot deck, you can dispense with the Blur, the US, and the
> Decapitate.
Hmm. I don't know. I'd say weenie potence only should go:
Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, [Increased Strength/Fists of Death],
Immortal Grapple, Undead Strength, Disarm, Decapitate. The IS/FoD are
completely optional, and I suppose if you had enough Disarms to replace
them, you'd be fine. But still, dishing out 7 or 9 damage in one
strike is always intimidating.
> I really want to make a deck with like 12 Disarms and see what kind of
> havoc I could wreak.
holy god. That would be sheer madness. And fun.
I'm planning on confusing everyone for the next couple of weeks and
their all Sabbat decks with a Brujah Princes deck a la Josh (and to do
so, I must disassemble the tried and true Nos/!Nos potence rush
deck...oh well), but my next project is making as good a Lasombra
Rush/GtU deck as can feasibly be managed. A few GtUs to bring in
vampires, or as added bleed scare, but mainly Bum's Rush, Monomacy,
Templar, and Political Struggle. Hmm. 6 BR, 2 Monomacy, 2 Templar, 4
Political Struggle, and 2 Haven Uncovered? Unfortunately a little less
focused than I'd like, but the vote defense is likely to be better.
Especially if I give up a master card slot or two for a Power
Structure. And I need to play Black Metamorphosis in there. Yum.
All I really have to say, though is...mmm...Talley-licious. He's what
I've been waiting for...for ages...
Xian
Xian
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Xian wrote:
> > I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained
> > that many full
> > converts since then, but I believe that we are more feared...
>
> I think the fear is more of you destroying my vampires than sweeping a
> table. :)
Eh...six of one, half a dozen of the other. Out of the last 4 times
I've played the deck, I've got one sweep, one game with 2 of 3 VPs
because I misjudged it, two games that were utter failures...one due to
a well-timed Dramatic Upheaval, and the other because I rushed my
predator too hard. I got a little too worried about the Setites and
didn't consider my grand-predator until it was too late. I almost
thrashed the last of my grand-predator's Tzimisce, but forgot to play
IG at a critical juncture, thus tipping the balance of "vampires in
torpor" in his favor instead of the other way around. This was, of
course, on 3 hours of sleep and after 7 hours of playing. So, that's 6
out of 15 VPs...hmm...not great, but not awful either. I'll attribute
it to getting readjusted to playing the deck.
Xian
Gomi no Sensei
Peter D Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote:
>Yeah, I'm still here, and my Pot Rush deck, completely devoid of untaps,
>intercept, vote defense, bleed bounce (and doesn't have any spare deck slots to
>spare...), and anything other than pure, unadulterated pre-emptive violence is
>still winning occasionally (heck, it swept the last time I played it :-)
So how does this happen? I'm asking not because I doubt you but out
of sheer frustration. My combat decks come out, kill two to six vampires,
and get ousted with 0 to 1 victory points. Do I just suck at table
management, or is there some Deep Juju to playing combat I'm
just totally oblivious to?
gomi
wants to start a regular ASK DR CARNAGE section in the newsgroup
--
you say they taught you how to read and write
yeah, they taught you how to count
i say they taught you how to buy and sell
your own body by the pound
oaflord
Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote in message
news:8tqm11$2d5a$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
<snip>
> So how does this happen? I'm asking not because I doubt you but out
> of sheer frustration. My combat decks come out, kill two to six vampires,
> and get ousted with 0 to 1 victory points. Do I just suck at table
> management, or is there some Deep Juju to playing combat I'm
> just totally oblivious to?
Practise makes perfect. FOCUS...
> wants to start a regular ASK DR CARNAGE section in the newsgroup
GO FOR IT!!!!!
oAFLORD
aka
Thomas Kuster
Prince of Caledon
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste
Brought death into the world, and all our woe."
John Milton Paradise Lost. Book i. Line 1.
Robert Goudie
[clip]
> I've heard that you West Coast types have had a fair amount
> of POT rush from time to time, but do you know what the
> history looked like out there? Did it develop independently
> of our versions, or was it inspired by them, or something else?
I may have played the first IG based potence deck out this way. I'm sure
someone will correct me if this ins't the case but I'm pretty sure it was
me. I was online at the time and was aware of the concept. I don't recall
ever downloading a decklist but I knew of a few players doing it. I now only
use the IG + Potence combat decks as corrective forces when the metagame
moves too far toward S:CE. It is when you can count on everyone at the
table using S:CE that the decks really shine. Alex Harmon has now won 3
tournaments with smallish potence vampires.
> I think the old Madison Wisconsin crew probably came up with
> the concept at least as early as we did too - that Adrian
> Sullivan has an impressive talent for deck design.
Yes, Adrian had a Nosferatu Archon deck that made an impression on me.
Having a weenie Nosf. vote-push deck at the time I was interested in the
Nos.
-Robert
Robert Goudie
news:8tq9f...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> Joshua Duffin wrote in message <8tq0ov$jh7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <Ew_L5.10307$Pw6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> (snip)
>
> >Hey, while we're here: anyone have any luck with potence-only
> >rush decks lately?
> Robert had an increased strength Burning Wrath deck a while back
Yep. Massive numbers of Increased Strength + Burning Wrath. Taste when
you're done. An excellent large vampire with S:CE killer. Its not worth
the trouble for the little vamps.
> I haven't even seen Robert's weenie potence deck recently. I think
> the revival of Obedience and the good amount of fortitude that is still
> hanging around our group has really has really killed the potence-only
> stuff.
I use the increased strength in the Burning Wrath deck. :-) They both
don't appear on my playlist at the same time. I know people tell me there's
ways around Obedience and fortitude, etc. but I happy enough waiting until
people get too comfortable with the the lack of combat. Then I'll return!
-Robert
James Hamblin
It's comparable to what Pulled Fangs always _should_ have done, i.e.,
send people to torpor, not burn them. Now Pulled Fangs is worthless,
and Disarm has replaced that functionality. I don't think it's "too
easy", since it works the same as PF but requires Potence.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"Maybe it's time to wave goodbye now."
-- Tori Amos
James Hamblin
Xian wrote:
>
> In article <3A00BE6A...@math.wisc.edu>,
> James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
> [weenie potence]
> > I think that such a deck needs Disarms, Disarms, and more Disarms.
> > That way it can be a lot more focused.
>
> Yeah, Disarms are soooo good. I finally have four now, and I'm
> thrilled.
I now have one, having yoinked it at the Sabbat draft at GenCon. And
please, merciful Lord, let us not restart _that_ thread....
> Although my weenie potence deck is almost Peter's
> exactly...very very minor variations (Watenda, 2x Rampage, Hand of
> Conrad), the Disarms are so much nicer than PF or anything else.
I like the whole Hand of Conrad angle. I have Sarah (Peach) Brando in
my !Brujah deck, mainly so that she can go down to the Potence store and
buy some superior Potence. Plus, she and Gaspare can resurrect Mitchell
when he goes a-head hunting...
> > For example, in my !Bru deck, a model combat looks like:
> >
> > Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Immortal Grapple, Undead Strength, Blur,
> > Taste of Vitae, Decapitate
> >
> > In a weenie Pot deck, you can dispense with the Blur, the US, and the
> > Decapitate.
Note: I meant "Taste" not "US". Oops.
> Hmm. I don't know. I'd say weenie potence only should go:
>
> Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, [Increased Strength/Fists of Death],
> Immortal Grapple, Undead Strength, Disarm, Decapitate. The IS/FoD are
> completely optional, and I suppose if you had enough Disarms to replace
> them, you'd be fine. But still, dishing out 7 or 9 damage in one
> strike is always intimidating.
My point is that you don't need the Decapitate at all. First, your
little guys can't really afford the blood cost, and many of them won't
have the superior necessary. You just punch them for three and rip
their arms off. If all goes well, pretty soon all your prey's vampires
are in torpor. If you're worried about rescues, have Hasina Kesi go
diablerize. If she gets blocked, more carnage!
> > I really want to make a deck with like 12 Disarms and see what kind of
> > havoc I could wreak.
>
> holy god. That would be sheer madness. And fun.
Bwa ha ha!
> I'm planning on confusing everyone for the next couple of weeks and
> their all Sabbat decks with a Brujah Princes deck a la Josh
I saw a deck like this at Origins that had a lot of 2nd Traditions; you
rush and kill, then untap, block, and kill. I don't have the 2nd's (or
Donals and Constanzas) to make it work, but it looked impressive. Well,
OK, the guy was using Bastard Swords, but the _idea_ looked impressive.
:)
> but my next project is making as good a Lasombra
> Rush/GtU deck as can feasibly be managed.
Man, I like the Lasombra a _lot_. They've got plenty of trickiness, and
I really want to make them work. But their vampires are just _huge_. I
haven't looked at the Monger list very closely yet. Did the Lasombra
get some good little guys? That 5 with (I think) dom obf OBT is just
_horrible_! And you have to use him, 'cause he's a 5! He'll almost be
the smallest vampire in your crypt!!
> A few GtUs to bring in
> vampires, or as added bleed scare, but mainly Bum's Rush, Monomacy,
> Templar, and Political Struggle. Hmm. 6 BR, 2 Monomacy, 2 Templar, 4
> Political Struggle, and 2 Haven Uncovered? Unfortunately a little less
> focused than I'd like, but the vote defense is likely to be better.
> Especially if I give up a master card slot or two for a Power
> Structure. And I need to play Black Metamorphosis in there. Yum.
That Power Structure card is really cool.
Here's a deck idea I've been toying around with, but again don't have
the cards for. Creation Rites, Blood Feast, Tribute to the Master,
Power Structure, Consanguineous Boon. Monster pool gain, if you can get
it rolling.
Looking up Black Metamorphosis... ack! It's not on the Monger site.
Card text, please?
> All I really have to say, though is...mmm...Talley-licious. He's what
> I've been waiting for...for ages...
Yeah, he's good... but the Lasombra already had a couple decent 6's.
They needed a 3 with obt pot, a 4 with OBT dom (or whatever), and a 5
with at least 4 points of in-clan disciplines. Ugh. Guido Luciano
makes me want to vomit.
Frederick Scott
>
> cantila wrote:
> > If you play a political deck you're not likely to have
> > it votes away through a Disputed Territory, so then they'll have to
> > take actions to burn the blood, which are more or less wasted actions.
>
> If you don't care that people are coming and taking the counters off of
> it, why are you playing with it in the first place?
In this case, so your opponent must spend valuable actions keeping your
Powerbase: Madrid counter-free. As I've pointed out elsewhere, that's
not too shabby for a worst-case scenario. (Though in fact, I suspect
the real worst-case scenario is getting it contested or stolen.)
> > Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
> > into play,
>
> Wrong.
>
> You're saying "every deck needs this PB" and "every deck needs
> intercept" but you're just wrong. A rush combat deck has no use for
> either of these things, for example. A weenie presence bleed deck
> couldn't care less about having intercept or voting power.
Actually, you can sell me on certain types of bleed decks not
needing or really even wanting intercept. I disagree about rush
combat decks. They may not specialize in reacting but a small
amount of intercept and wake can go a long way towards making your
opponents slow down and work carefully as they're trying to screw
with you. And unlike a bleed deck, if you wind up in combat with
an opposing minion, that's generally a good thing, a step in the
right direction.
Fred
Derek Ray
>In article <20001101201902...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
>Peter D Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, I'm still here, and my Pot Rush deck, completely devoid of untaps,
>>intercept, vote defense, bleed bounce (and doesn't have any spare deck slots to
>>spare...), and anything other than pure, unadulterated pre-emptive violence is
>>still winning occasionally (heck, it swept the last time I played it :-)
>
>So how does this happen? I'm asking not because I doubt you but out
>of sheer frustration. My combat decks come out, kill two to six vampires,
>and get ousted with 0 to 1 victory points. Do I just suck at table
>management, or is there some Deep Juju to playing combat I'm
>just totally oblivious to?
Table management is obnoxiously difficult with a hyper-combat deck.
To make your combats 100% effective, you don't have room for intercept
or untap - at least not the effective variety, where you can actually
catch something other than the occasional +1 stealth action. The
vampires in question don't have the disciplines for bleed bounce or
vote defense, so your defenses MUST be subtracting any voters or
bleeders that take actions you don't like, with extreme prejudice.
Ideally, you beat up all of your prey's vampires as soon as they get
influenced out, before they ever get to take an action - and with your
spare vampires, you beat up any of your predator's vampires that look
threatening, but you leave his defenders alone (out of Ozmo, Roland
Bishop, and Zoe, you beat the crap out of Ozmo first, and then Roland
if he ever takes a bleed action. Zoe is not a significant offensive
threat without skill cards, so she can live until she bounces a bleed
- then she'll need to go too.)
Once you run out of vampires in your immediate vicinity that need to
die, you bleed your defenseless prey for 1 with each vampire. Do this
lots. As necessary, you will need to look around the table and see
who is building up to be too strong - is your grand-predator making
short work of your predator? That won't do. Go "adjust" one of his
vampires. Is your grandprey building up a huge pool gain monster with
the total lack of pressure? Go knock his Prince's block off so he'll
quit 5th Traditioning.
A lot of times, you'll win 3-1 or 4-1 - your predator will have been
ousted at some point, and there's not a lot you can do about it.
Someone who is bound and determined to hammer you with every vampire
they can is just going to have to lose those vampires, and if that
leaves them defenseless, bad cess to them.
The problems with the deck come in when Obedience and Fortitude make
an appearance. Obedience will wedge your hand horribly by making you
waste a Rush action and not letting you move any cards - possibly
leaving you Rushless. Fortitude is not AS bad, since you get to move
cards, press, and get to the next Rush action, and they will
eventually run out of Skin of Steel/Rolling with the Punches -
possibly that combat since IG provides a press. Superior Mettle at
superior is a real pain in the butt for POT/OBF decks - one card
basically walls up the entire combat and you MUST burn down your hand
in order to get to another Rush. POT/CEL decks ignore this, but since
they rely on the extra strikes, sometimes Skin of Steel can be nastier
- and the vamp selection for POT/OBF is much better. Especially with
Ox, who removes the need for Potence skill cards in such a deck, IMO -
think 2 Beast, 2 Ox, 2 Nigel, 2 Olivia, 2 Agatha, 1 Duck, 1 Koko.
Hasina and Lupo can make an appearance in place of an Ox and a Nigel,
but then you want a couple skill cards back again.
The other problems come in when other people have combat decks, and
now it's a question of who does their combat better. Close-range guys
you can normally handle, except for the Gangrel and other POT decks
(mutual annihilation! whee). Long-range guys can be trouble, as they
often pack enough maneuvers to guarantee their range against POT
decks.
...now to wait for Peter's response and see if I left anything out.
[I'll admit that I prefer weenie THA rush for sheer fun, because
there's nothing more amusing, IMO, than watching Blythe go jump on a 5
or 6-cap and burn him in 2 rounds. :) Unfortunately there are too
many weak points with THA for it to sweep that often, but it's still
always a nice surprise for the little buggers who are packing heavy
maneuvers and Fortitude as their combat defense.]
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
Frederick Scott
Um, you just answered your own question, Ian.
Fred
James Hamblin
Gomi no Sensei wrote:
>
[Peter sweeps with Rush deck]
>
> So how does this happen? I'm asking not because I doubt you but out
> of sheer frustration. My combat decks come out, kill two to six vampires,
> and get ousted with 0 to 1 victory points. Do I just suck at table
> management, or is there some Deep Juju to playing combat I'm
> just totally oblivious to?
There is some fairly deep Juju. The key is putting enough pressure on
your predator so that they don't kill you. But not too much, because
then you get a new, really strong predator. You have to put pressure on
your prey (that's how you win) but not so much that you ignore your
predator. Very rarely, you will need to kill something across the table
(a) because it's threatening you or (b) because sometimes you need to
threaten people across the table to get them to help you, and sometimes
you need to follow up on your threats.
If your deck is constructed right, then at any time on your turn, you
should be able to point at a vampire and make it die by sheer force of
having a monster combat deck (will factors in there somewhere). The
tricky part is knowing who to kill. Sometimes, you bide your time,
especially when the table is where you want it. Know when to stop
killing everything and start bleeding. Have a long-term plan. Your
deck is going to run out of cards before anyone else's. What do you do
then? My decks tend to have a little pool gain, a little bleed bonus,
and a little strength increase. _All_ permanent. Having a vampire with
inherent +1 bleed (man, I love that Commander Sela) or having a random
Tasha Morgan in your deck can make the difference between winning and
not. Again, this must all be in moderation. The vast majority of your
deck must be concentrated on kill, kill, kill.
Note: If your group is wise to your combat-y ways, you may not be able
to win with your deck. In this case, the strategy becomes "punish them
for trying too hard". Make a deck against which all their Skins of
Steel, Majesty, and Obedience are completely wasted; a stealth-bleed
deck.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"We danced in graveyards with vampires till dawn
We laughed in the faces of kings never afraid to burn"
-- Tori Amos
Petri Wessman
James> Ian Lee wrote:
>>
>> >I think that such a deck needs Disarms, Disarms, and more Disarms.
>>
>> What do people think of Disarm? Personal opinion - the card is cheesy (too
>> easy relative to its power or too powerful relative to its ease, whichever).
James> It's comparable to what Pulled Fangs always _should_ have done, i.e.,
James> send people to torpor, not burn them. Now Pulled Fangs is worthless,
PF is *not* worthless, it can be deadly if played right. Especially
against weenies it's a great way of slowing them down.
//Petri
Petri Wessman
Mathieu> Maybe it was already mentioned, but is Telepathic Tracking in a precon
Mathieu> deck, in boosters, or both?
In the boosters. It's either an uncommon or a rare, I only got one
after opening 1+ booster boxes. I hope it's an uncommon and I just had
bad luck...
//Petri
Xian
James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> I like the whole Hand of Conrad angle. I have Sarah (Peach) Brando in
> my !Brujah deck, mainly so that she can go down to the Potence store
> and buy some superior Potence. Plus, she and Gaspare can resurrect
> Mitchell when he goes a-head hunting...
Are you going to be in Madison over Christmas, James? I may be down
for a couple of days *right* around Xmas, and if I don't bring my
girlfriend, I'll have plenty of time to play Jyhad. :)
> Note: I meant "Taste" not "US". Oops.
Well, that did change the whole thing. Of course, I play the Taste
too...
[weenie potence]
> My point is that you don't need the Decapitate at all. First, your
> little guys can't really afford the blood cost, and many of them won't
> have the superior necessary. You just punch them for three and rip
> their arms off. If all goes well, pretty soon all your prey's
True. But Decapitate is just *so* satisfying. And I usually get POT
on most of my vampires with 4 skill cards in the deck.
[Brujah Princes]
> I saw a deck like this at Origins that had a lot of 2nd Traditions;
> you rush and kill, then untap, block, and kill. I don't have the
> 2nd's (or Donals and Constanzas) to make it work, but it looked
> impressive. Well, OK, the guy was using Bastard Swords, but the
> _idea_ looked impressive.
Yeah...it sounds sooo nice. And (Mark...you can't tell anyone...) I'm
planning to use Backstab with it! Think of it. 2nd Tradition. Torn
Signpost. Backstab. Immortal Grapple. Undead Strength. Disarm.
Dead.
> Man, I like the Lasombra a _lot_. They've got plenty of trickiness,
> and I really want to make them work. But their vampires are just
> _huge_. I haven't looked at the Monger list very closely yet. Did
> the Lasombra get some good little guys? That 5 with (I think) dom
> obf OBT is just _horrible_! And you have to use him, 'cause he's a
> 5! He'll almost be the smallest vampire in your crypt!!
Screw Guido Luciano. He can...well, whatever.
> That Power Structure card is really cool.
Yah. It's nice. I'd like to put in some of the other
Lasombra/Obtenebration cards like San Nicolas de las Servitas (check
the Monger...it's there), and Shadow Strike would be great, but it
would require Thoughts Betrayed to beat S:CE. Just not worth it. I'm
considering Darkness Within, because it comes with a maneuver at
superior.
Darkness Within
Combat
Obtenebration
1 blood
inf: Put this card into play before range is determined. Once each
round, during strike resolution, move 1 blood (or life) from the
opposing minion to this card (even at long range). Burn this card when
combat ends. This vampire gains half of the blood (rounded up) from
this card when it is burned. A minion can play only one Darkness Within
each combat.
sup: As above, with an optional maneuver.
At first, I didn't realize how neat this card was. Upon the second or
third reading, though, I noticed that it takes the blood off of the
opposing minion...at first I just thought you added one per round from
the blood bank for some reason. I also thought it was round down, but
I was wrong again. I don't think my brain is working properly. I
should do better when I'm working days again.
Hmm...Bum's Rush/Political Struggle/Templar, Torn Signpost, Fists of
Death, Darkness Within, [Shadow Step], Undead Strength, Taste of Vitae,
Disarm [Decapitate]. Yum. Or...get the Black Metamorphosis, Bum's
Rush, Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, strike, strike, Taste of Vitae,
etc.
> Looking up Black Metamorphosis... ack! It's not on the Monger site.
> Card text, please?
Sure...I posted it in a different thread, but I'll paraphrase it as
best I can (should be correct except template wording might be off)...
Black Metamorphosis
Action
Obtenebration
2 blood
inf: This vampire gains an optional additional strike each round of
combat.
sup: As above, and this vampire gains an optional press once per
combat.
It's a Shadow of the Beast for Obtenebration! But better! Who needs
maneuvers when you can set range with Shadow Step?
[Talley]
> Yeah, he's good... but the Lasombra already had a couple decent 6's.
> They needed a 3 with obt pot, a 4 with OBT dom (or whatever), and a 5
> with at least 4 points of in-clan disciplines. Ugh. Guido Luciano
> makes me want to vomit.
Yeah, 3 obt pot would be great...of course Mitchell - Headhunter is
that at 2...even if he does have the special disability of costing 1
more to rescue from torpor. All obtenebration needs now is damage
prevention (and active first strike...). A 4 with POT obt would be the
best. Or a 5 with POT obt dom. Talley is far better than the other
two 6s though...Aurora is 6 dom for OBT pot and the 1R damage, Lisette
is a 6 Bishop DOM POT pro and +1 int vs. diablerie. Talley kicks their
asses any day of the week. Though Lisette is POT pro...
Yeah, the Lasombra are mainly huge, but I think it can be done with
some of the smaller ones and one of the Archbishops. Maybe one of
either Aurora or Lisette...
Xian
--
But rain falls down and I feel cold
A cold that sleeps within my heart
It tears the earth and sun apart
--New Order, "Shellshock"
j...@columbus.rr.com
>
> Myself, I rate the Museum of High Art, Atlanta, as mostly fun, except
for
> heavy intercept decks. I might be tempted to throw it in a few decks,
> just because.
>
>In Columbus we've already dubbed the Museum of High Art, Atlanta
the "Hot Potato". It seems fitting.
Jay
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote:
<snip>
> I'm planning on confusing everyone for the next couple of weeks and
> their all Sabbat decks with a Brujah Princes deck a la Josh
Good luck! I was playing my Euro-Brujah Amaranth deck the other night against
my esteemed and Sabbat War-happy friends, and apparently everybody here goes
crazy with Tzimisce and !Gangrel – sat switched between two Tzimisce combat
monsters, and although it was a bloody mayhem and loads of fun, times seem to
be tough for good old potence combat because of all the aggravated damage
floating around. One Card – Chiropteran Merauder (or whatever it's called) –
really pissed me off: Either they manouver away from your IG, or they just
take you with them to torpor. Thank Caine nobody played this new Vicissitude
card – name ecapes me, something with "blood" – that makes you immune to
non-aggravated damage, you can't strike, but your carrion crows, DotB etc. do
the job for you – scary!
Anyway, I'm determined to show that the Camarilla hasn't lost the upper hand.
Guess there will be a very predictable shift in the meta game towards Sabbat
War, so there are fewer deck archetypes to take into account.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
James Coupe
> It's comparable to what Pulled Fangs always _should_ have done, i.e.,
> send people to torpor, not burn them. Now Pulled Fangs is worthless,
> and Disarm has replaced that functionality. I don't think it's "too
> easy", since it works the same as PF but requires Potence.
The can't hunt functionality on Pulled Fangs is still useful, as is the
extra damage for a disciplinless deck. For instance, a Gangrel deck
sending people to torpor often has trouble acting dealing relatively large
amounts of damage to them, compared to potence. Scorpion Sting and
Gangrel Revel etc give you three, which only burns two blood when
aggravated.
Dropping another damage or two on top makes it harder for people to rescue
themselves, or split costs etc.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him.
I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin
with him and the way he makes me feel?"
James Coupe
> Actually, you can sell me on certain types of bleed decks not
> needing or really even wanting intercept. I disagree about rush
> combat decks.
The very specialised "Only-rush" decks don't. In fact, it hurts their
play-style.
The PDB6 rush and rush and rush decks don't need intercept and don't have
intercept. Intercept counts detrimentally to their cards, which they need
a lot of to guarantee the rushes. If you leave a vampire untapped, that's
someone you didn't rush. If you put in a Wake, that's an Immortal Grapple
(or whatever) you just removed.
Myself, I find the deck style not my thing, and especially not good in the
UK where the toolbox decks are more needed.
Noal McDonald
>> Maybe it was already mentioned, but is Telepathic
>
> In the boosters.
Actually, it's in the !Ventrue pre-con. Not sure why as it's horribly
mismatched with that deck.
Regareds,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Petri Wessman
Noal> Petri Wessman <or...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi> wrote:
>>> Maybe it was already mentioned, but is Telepathic
>>> Tracking in a precon deck, in boosters, or both?
>>
>> In the boosters.
Noal> Actually, it's in the !Ventrue pre-con. Not sure why as it's horribly
Noal> mismatched with that deck.
You sure? As far as I know it wasn't in mine, and I got the impression
that the pre-cons don't have any random cards.
//Petri
The Lasombra
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Petri Wessman <or...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi> wrote:
> >> Maybe it was already mentioned, but is Telepathic
> >> Tracking in a precon deck, in boosters, or both?
> >
> > In the boosters.
>
> Actually, it's in the !Ventrue pre-con. Not sure why as it's horribly
> mismatched with that deck.
No, Noal. It is not in any of the pre-constructed decks.
I still have all four uncorrupted, and double-checked, and
it is not in any of the pre-constructed decks.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://lasombra.tripod.com/decks.htm#precon
James Hamblin
Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> James Hamblin wrote:
> >
> > cantila wrote:
> > > If you play a political deck you're not likely to have
> > > it votes away through a Disputed Territory, so then they'll have to
> > > take actions to burn the blood, which are more or less wasted actions.
> >
> > If you don't care that people are coming and taking the counters off of
> > it, why are you playing with it in the first place?
>
> In this case, so your opponent must spend valuable actions keeping your
> Powerbase: Madrid counter-free. As I've pointed out elsewhere, that's
> not too shabby for a worst-case scenario. (Though in fact, I suspect
> the real worst-case scenario is getting it contested or stolen.)
But if the card is so marginal that you don't care if your opponents can
make it useless, why even have it? Worst case scenario is it takes up a
card spot in your deck (and a _master_ card at that), and you don't
really need it.
> > > Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
> > > into play,
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> Actually, you can sell me on certain types of bleed decks not
> needing or really even wanting intercept. I disagree about rush
> combat decks. They may not specialize in reacting but a small
> amount of intercept and wake can go a long way towards making your
> opponents slow down and work carefully as they're trying to screw
> with you. And unlike a bleed deck, if you wind up in combat with
> an opposing minion, that's generally a good thing, a step in the
> right direction.
My (considerable) experience with this kind of deck has shown me that
this is simply incorrect. First, the card(s) which provide intercept
take up slots in your deck, making your combat less effective. Second,
you have to waste an action or a master phase getting the intercept
out. Third, you then have to waste a minion _not_ rushing something to
sit around waiting to block something. And very often, this leads to
you beating up your predator instead of your prey, which is not always
what you want. The key to winning with a rush deck is not "beat up
everything you can". If my prey has a Ventrue deck with lots of
anti-combat and my predator has some feeb deck with weak vampires, it
might be tempting to vent my frustrations and obliterate all my
predator's vampires. But that will lose me the game.
Xian
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hjq10tsa77li135ck...@4ax.com...
> Table management is obnoxiously difficult with a hyper-combat deck.
I want to add something to what Derek and James had to say, but I think I'm
far too tired. But yes, table management is horribly key to winning. Rule of
thumb would be about 2/3 rushes directed at prey, 1/3 directed at predator.
Maybe Haven Uncovereds cross-table.
However, we *could* start an "Ask Dr. Carnage" thread or something...or even
more fun, I'll set up a section on my webpage, and randomly farm any questions
out to the gurus. Yay! Q & A email section!
Xian
Noal McDonald
> No, Noal. It is not in any of the pre-constructed decks.
> I still have all four uncorrupted, and double-checked, and
> it is not in any of the pre-constructed decks.
*brow furrows*
I could have sworn it was in the one I opened up. Pardon me, I haven't
finished my coffee this morning.
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Joshua Duffin
> James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
> [first of multiple replys in this thread...bored at work]
>
> [weenie potence]
> > I think that such a deck needs Disarms, Disarms, and more Disarms.
> > That way it can be a lot more focused.
>
> Yeah, Disarms are soooo good. I finally have four now, and I'm
> thrilled. Although my weenie potence deck is almost Peter's
> exactly...very very minor variations (Watenda, 2x Rampage, Hand of
> Conrad), the Disarms are so much nicer than PF or anything else.
Ah. Yes. Disarms. Those would be good. Too bad I
still don't have any (after one box of SW). Looks like
I'm gonna have to make some effort to trade for 'em,
and hopefully there will be some decent supply out there
what with the reprint...
> > I really want to make a deck with like 12 Disarms and see what kind
of
> > havoc I could wreak.
>
> holy god. That would be sheer madness. And fun.
It would probably end up being really consistent and having
very few different cards in it - maybe something like 12-15
Grapple, 12-15 Signpost, 12 Disarm, maybe some Undead
Strength, Taste, what-have-you, and then the usual Ambushes,
Bum's Rushes, and Havens.
> I'm planning on confusing everyone for the next couple of weeks and
> their all Sabbat decks with a Brujah Princes deck a la Josh (and to do
> so, I must disassemble the tried and true Nos/!Nos potence rush
> deck...oh well), but my next project is making as good a Lasombra
> Rush/GtU deck as can feasibly be managed. A few GtUs to bring in
> vampires, or as added bleed scare, but mainly Bum's Rush, Monomacy,
> Templar, and Political Struggle. Hmm. 6 BR, 2 Monomacy, 2 Templar, 4
> Political Struggle, and 2 Haven Uncovered? Unfortunately a little
less
> focused than I'd like, but the vote defense is likely to be better.
> Especially if I give up a master card slot or two for a Power
> Structure. And I need to play Black Metamorphosis in there. Yum.
Sounds like fun. I'm also excited about trying out the new
cards for the more "Sabbat-only" clans (Lasombra, Tzimisce,
!Malkavian, maybe City !Gangrel); now that I actually have a
reasonable number of cards and vampires for them maybe I
can put something good together...
> All I really have to say, though is...mmm...Talley-licious. He's what
> I've been waiting for...for ages...
It's Talleyrific!
Josh
now, with thirty percent more Talley at the same low price!
Frederick Scott
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> >
> > James Hamblin wrote:
> > >
> > > cantila wrote:
> > > > If you play a political deck you're not likely to have
> > > > it votes away through a Disputed Territory, so then they'll have to
> > > > take actions to burn the blood, which are more or less wasted actions.
> > >
> > > If you don't care that people are coming and taking the counters off of
> > > it, why are you playing with it in the first place?
> >
> > In this case, so your opponent must spend valuable actions keeping your
> > Powerbase: Madrid counter-free. As I've pointed out elsewhere, that's
> > not too shabby for a worst-case scenario. (Though in fact, I suspect
> > the real worst-case scenario is getting it contested or stolen.)
>
> But if the card is so marginal that you don't care if your opponents can
> make it useless, why even have it? Worst case scenario is it takes up a
> card spot in your deck (and a _master_ card at that), and you don't
> really need it.
I don't know where you're going off the track, here. Your reasoning
seems to preclude the use of flexible cards. Just because I threw a card
in the deck for a purpose and its immediate purpose might get thwarted
doesn't make it a bad card - as long as it's doing _something_ for me.
Making my opponent spend multiple minion actions to deal with something
I spent one MPA and one pool seems like a good deal to me. And to respond
directly to your comment, just because I'm OK with my opponents spending
actions to neutralize my P:M does _not_ imply that I view the card as
"marginal".
> > > > Also, every deck should have some stationary intercept cards to put
> > > > into play,
> > >
> > > Wrong.
> >
> > Actually, you can sell me on certain types of bleed decks not
> > needing or really even wanting intercept. I disagree about rush
> > combat decks. They may not specialize in reacting but a small
> > amount of intercept and wake can go a long way towards making your
> > opponents slow down and work carefully as they're trying to screw
> > with you. And unlike a bleed deck, if you wind up in combat with
> > an opposing minion, that's generally a good thing, a step in the
> > right direction.
>
> My (considerable) experience with this kind of deck has shown me that
> this is simply incorrect.
Well, I think it amounts to our experience has shown the two of us
conflicting lessons. There's all kinds of reasons for this: metagame,
talking about different kinds of rush combat decks, using larger vs.
smaller vampires, and personal strengths and weaknesses in play.
> First, the card(s) which provide intercept take up slots in your
> deck, making your combat less effective. Second, you have to
> waste an action or a master phase getting the intercept out.
Perhaps. But certain intercept cards go a long way. I don't think
it's bad to have one copy of KCRG and maybe one or two of London
Evening Star and/or Rumor Mill. They don't take up much room, if
they don't come up you do without but if they do, you suddenly have
the option to block stealth actions like votes and so forth. I think
this is clearly a case of a small amount of something going a long,
long way.
> Third, you then have to waste a minion _not_ rushing something to
> sit around waiting to block something.
The occasional Forced Awakening is not going to cost you any rushes.
It will occasionally take up hand space, which is bad. But the
ability to surprise your predator or prey with a combat they hadn't
expected will prevent them from playing their hand out with impunity.
It makes a difference. It sure as hell makes a difference to me
when I'm dealing with a combat deck and I see this happen. Again,
a small amount of something goes a long way (I'm not talking about
a lot of Wakes, only a sprinkling of them). It has a cost, but
relative to the benefit, it's well worth it in my experience.
> And very often, this leads to
> you beating up your predator instead of your prey, which is not always
> what you want.
Granted, reactions are less control than actions. But if you don't
want to beat someone up, don't use the Wake. It's an _option_. That's
important if you find your predator attempt to sensory dep your Beast,
Leatherface of Detroit.
Fred
Steve Bucy
Robert Goudie wrote in message ...
>"Joshua Duffin" <jt...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
>news:8tqbeo$t4t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>[clip]
>> I've heard that you West Coast types have had a fair amount
>> of POT rush from time to time, but do you know what the
>> history looked like out there? Did it develop independently
>> of our versions, or was it inspired by them, or something else?
>
>I may have played the first IG based potence deck out this way. I'm sure
>someone will correct me if this ins't the case but I'm pretty sure it was
>me. I was online at the time and was aware of the concept. I don't recall
>ever downloading a decklist but I knew of a few players doing it. I now
only
>use the IG + Potence combat decks as corrective forces when the metagame
>moves too far toward S:CE. It is when you can count on everyone at the
>table using S:CE that the decks really shine. Alex Harmon has now won 3
>tournaments with smallish potence vampires.
Robert definately came up with the first focused IG rush deck in out group.
Myself and others and had experimented with IG, mainly in bruise and bleed,
but didn't have enough focus or enough IG to really make the concept
effective. I knew the possible effectiveness of IG but I was not really into
combat and actually hoped it wouldn't be used to it's fullest effect. Robert
of course had to spoil the relative peace with a very nasty Euro prince rush
monster that was almost quaranteed to wipe out any vamp. This lead to my
first affair with Obedience...
Interestingly Robert, and to a much lesser extent I, are the only ones in
our group to really use IG. There have been lots of rush decks, Brujah &
Anti-Brujah pitch, animalism, Tzimisce, Assimite, etc. but very few plain
old IG decks. Guess everyone figured Robert had done it so they would try
something else.
Jasper Phillips
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2 Nov 2000 03:11:29 GMT, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote:
>>
>>So how does this happen? I'm asking not because I doubt you but out
>>of sheer frustration. My combat decks come out, kill two to six vampires,
>>and get ousted with 0 to 1 victory points. Do I just suck at table
>>management, or is there some Deep Juju to playing combat I'm
>>just totally oblivious to?
>
>Table management is obnoxiously difficult with a hyper-combat deck.
>To make your combats 100% effective, you don't have room for intercept
>or untap - at least not the effective variety, where you can actually
>catch something other than the occasional +1 stealth action. The
>vampires in question don't have the disciplines for bleed bounce or
>vote defense, so your defenses MUST be subtracting any voters or
>bleeders that take actions you don't like, with extreme prejudice.
You really have _zero_ room for intercept or untap. Trying to work in
the number of cards necessary for this will kill you.
>Ideally, you beat up all of your prey's vampires as soon as they get
>influenced out, before they ever get to take an action - and with your
>spare vampires, you beat up any of your predator's vampires that look
>threatening, but you leave his defenders alone (out of Ozmo, Roland
>Bishop, and Zoe, you beat the crap out of Ozmo first, and then Roland
>if he ever takes a bleed action. Zoe is not a significant offensive
>threat without skill cards, so she can live until she bounces a bleed
>- then she'll need to go too.)
This is backwards IMHO. Most good decks have a signifigant offensive
threat, and you need to blunt this proactively. Your predator is your
first target, unless he's playing some sort of defensive deck, when
you can thank him for helping you win. You have to walk a fine line
between keeping them from hurting you, and just setting him up for
your grandprey.
Your prey you want to actually let get started, so he can do some damage
to your grandprey for you, both setting him up for after you've ousted
your prey, and keeping him from getting to strong -- without the (yet)
having to rush cross table. Also if you torporize all of his vampires
right off the bat, he may well not influence out any more, figuring you
can't bleed for much. This can be frustrating.
At some point you'll have to go cross table as well, but that tends to
be obvious.
[snip]
[snip problems with Obedience and Fortitude]
Obedience sucks, and there's not really much you can do about it.
Fortitude isn't nearly so threatening, and you can often blow through
it provided it isn't supported by agg damage or something similar.
In my experience maneuvers can be more of a pain in the ass than
fortitude.
>- and the vamp selection for POT/OBF is much better. Especially with
>Ox, who removes the need for Potence skill cards in such a deck, IMO -
>think 2 Beast, 2 Ox, 2 Nigel, 2 Olivia, 2 Agatha, 1 Duck, 1 Koko.
>Hasina and Lupo can make an appearance in place of an Ox and a Nigel,
>but then you want a couple skill cards back again.
Smaller is _so_ much better. I'd double up a little less, and Hesina Kesi
is the best, probably worth including twice. The number of actions you
can take each turn is a big issue, and being able to smack your predator
with Hesina before they can do _anything_ is great. :-)
Besides, playing with skill cards lets your use Watenda!
[snip the end]
-Jasper
Mark & Kathy ShaneWood
Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message
news:Jb_L5.689$q81.2...@news.uswest.net...> news:7hn00tkms31vn2mbu...@4ax.com...
> > Which makes me curious: how many jack-booted thugs do we HAVE around
> > here, anyway?
>
> I'm not sure. I believe the term was originally applied a couple of years
> ago, before I took my sabbatical from the newsgroup. At the time, I
believe
> included in the roll-call was Peter (of course), James Hamblin, myself,
Josh
> Duffin, and a few of you Atlanta Crew, IIRC.
>
> I don't think that the advocates of pure-rush decks have gained that many
full
> converts since then, but I believe that we are more feared...
>
Yer damn right you're feared. And the lack of converts probably stems from
pure rush being (a) rare-intensive (IG is rare for many of us, since we got
little or no Sabbat) and (b) tricky to win games with.
!Tor bruise-bleed, now _ that _ I could get to like.
Mark Shanewood
Spike-heeled Thug
Xian
"Mark & Kathy ShaneWood" <shan...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:3a0206bb$0$28259$7f89...@newsreader.visi.com...
> Yer damn right you're feared. And the lack of converts probably stems from
Awww...kind words from the prince. Now I feel all mushy inside. :)
> pure rush being (a) rare-intensive (IG is rare for many of us, since we got
> little or no Sabbat) and (b) tricky to win games with.
Point A is well-noted. Hopefully Sabbat War will clear that up to some
extent. I will point out that most of my IGs are from Jyhad, and I traded my
ass off for them. And point B is obvious from the threads currently running.
But damn, it's fun.
> !Tor bruise-bleed, now _ that _ I could get to like.
I'm thinking of trying to work a Toreador ( + !Toreador?) cel/pre vote (with
Scorn of Adonis & Alacrity) guns deck. With Telepathic Tracking and Psyche,
S:CE should be less of a problem, and with presence, bleeding will still be
nice too. Rather toolbox-ish, though. I just put together a mostly commons
aus/pre Toreador deck for a newbie who may be coming on Sunday. Speaking of
which, you free Mark?
> Mark Shanewood
> Spike-heeled Thug
Hahahaha! I'm glad that you're comfortable enough with your sexuality to
admit this, Mark. :) Most people aren't as brave...
Xian
--
I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold.
A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart.
--_Shellshock_, New Order
www.waste.org/~xian
James Hamblin
Frederick Scott wrote:
>
> James Hamblin wrote:
> >
> > But if the card is so marginal that you don't care if your opponents can
> > make it useless, why even have it? Worst case scenario is it takes up a
> > card spot in your deck (and a _master_ card at that), and you don't
> > really need it.
>
> I don't know where you're going off the track, here. Your reasoning
> seems to preclude the use of flexible cards.
Just because a card is flexible doesn't mean I want to play with it.
> Just because I threw a card
> in the deck for a purpose and its immediate purpose might get thwarted
> doesn't make it a bad card - as long as it's doing _something_ for me.
_That's_ the point. There are many decks for which this card does
nothing. I agree that every deck should have vote defense. But this
ain't it, unless you're willing to try to protect it.
> Making my opponent spend multiple minion actions to deal with something
> I spent one MPA and one pool seems like a good deal to me.
But if they out-vote you anyway, you just wasted that pool and that MPA.
[intercept cards in rush decks]
> > My (considerable) experience with this kind of deck has shown me that
> > this is simply incorrect.
>
> Well, I think it amounts to our experience has shown the two of us
> conflicting lessons. There's all kinds of reasons for this: metagame,
> talking about different kinds of rush combat decks,
For the record, I am referring to the Ithaca-style Potence rush combat
deck.
> using larger vs.
> smaller vampires, and personal strengths and weaknesses in play.
I'll not interpret that as a dig against me. Moving on...
> > First, the card(s) which provide intercept take up slots in your
> > deck, making your combat less effective. Second, you have to
> > waste an action or a master phase getting the intercept out.
>
> Perhaps. But certain intercept cards go a long way.
...toward letting you intercept things. Sure! But what if you don't
want to do that? Then there's no use having the card.
> > Third, you then have to waste a minion _not_ rushing something to
> > sit around waiting to block something.
>
> The occasional Forced Awakening is not going to cost you any rushes.
But it costs yet more space in your deck, and yet more focus.
> It will occasionally take up hand space, which is bad.
Deadly.
> But the
> ability to surprise your predator or prey with a combat they hadn't
> expected will prevent them from playing their hand out with impunity.
> It makes a difference. It sure as hell makes a difference to me
> when I'm dealing with a combat deck and I see this happen. Again,
> a small amount of something goes a long way (I'm not talking about
> a lot of Wakes, only a sprinkling of them). It has a cost, but
> relative to the benefit, it's well worth it in my experience.
You say this as if you think I haven't _tried_ having intercept and
wakes in a combat deck. I have. It doesn't work. Sure, you can
occasionally be all crafty and surprise somebody. But the whole point
of having a rush deck is to have an active defense. Your vote defense?
Rush the voters. Bleed defense? Rush the bleeders. This strategy,
while it doesn't always work (vs. fortitude, etc.) is more consistent,
and can't be foiled by yet other strategies like stealth. It would be
terrible to sacrifice some combat effectiveness to have some light
intercept, and then be foiled by some Malkavians that you would destroy
if only the Wake in your hand were a Bum's Rush.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"Just put your feet down child
'Coz you're all grown up now."
-- Kate Bush
Frederick Scott
>
> Frederick Scott wrote:
> >
> > James Hamblin wrote:
> > >
> > > But if the card is so marginal that you don't care if your opponents can
> > > make it useless, why even have it? Worst case scenario is it takes up a
> > > card spot in your deck (and a _master_ card at that), and you don't
> > > really need it.
> >
> > I don't know where you're going off the track, here. Your reasoning
> > seems to preclude the use of flexible cards.
>
> Just because a card is flexible doesn't mean I want to play with it.
No, but *I* do. And you asked why a person would have it. That's why.
The fact that *you* would choose not play with it is not per se a reason.
Anyway, to get back to the issue at hand, I'm saying that the fact that
it's OK with me that my opponents may choose to spend minion actions
depriving me of the votes on the card does *not* mean - as you erroneously
concluded - that "the card is ... marginal". It just gives them some
latitude about whether they want me to have the votes or spend their
minion actions. I assert that neither is a good choice for them; thus,
the card is a good card - even if I never get a single vote from it.
(In fact, the way it works, it's even *better* if I never get a single
vote from it than it is if I occasional do.)
> > Just because I threw a card
> > in the deck for a purpose and its immediate purpose might get thwarted
> > doesn't make it a bad card - as long as it's doing _something_ for me.
>
> _That's_ the point. There are many decks for which this card does
> nothing. I agree that every deck should have vote defense. But this
> ain't it, unless you're willing to try to protect it.
I contradict. There are no decks for which this card does nothing. It
is either vote defense or it is something that my opponents must expend
minion actions on. The risk in the card - aside from contesting and the
usual theivery/destruction risk that any location is subject to - is that
if I have no votes and my opponents have no votes and no bloodhunts/Elysium
destructions/etc. votes come up, *then* it is a useless card. This is
obviously only possible if I have no votes in my deck, so that's when it
behooves me to consider my metagame. But if political decks are popular
with my local crowd, it's still likely to be worthwhile.
> > Making my opponent spend multiple minion actions to deal with something
> > I spent one MPA and one pool seems like a good deal to me.
>
> But if they out-vote you anyway, you just wasted that pool and that MPA.
OK, sure, if one guy gets a table lock that's five votes greater than the
rest of the field, it could be useless as well. That's seldom the case so
I'm not going to take that into account in my thinking. If that makes you
paranoid to think about, I guess our mileage does vary.
>
> [intercept cards in rush decks]
> > > My (considerable) experience with this kind of deck has shown me that
> > > this is simply incorrect.
> >
> > Well, I think it amounts to our experience has shown the two of us
> > conflicting lessons.
...
> I'll not interpret that as a dig against me.
It was not intended as such. Just a reminder that experience may
lead to different conclusions.
> > > First, the card(s) which provide intercept take up slots in your
> > > deck, making your combat less effective. Second, you have to
> > > waste an action or a master phase getting the intercept out.
> >
> > Perhaps. But certain intercept cards go a long way.
>
> ...toward letting you intercept things. Sure! But what if you don't
> want to do that? Then there's no use having the card.
It's not so much that I want to that specifically. But it's very
very useful to slow down the development of both your predator and
prey's positions. And a little bit of stuff like this does have a
striking effect towards that end. I understand your desire to go
balls out as you do your rush combat. I'm just saying that if you
perhaps sacrifice the odd master phase action, pool, and occasionally
draw and hold a Forced Awakening, the amount of delay you reap from
it has always seemed to me to be well worth the minor inconvenience.
> > > Third, you then have to waste a minion _not_ rushing something to
> > > sit around waiting to block something.
> >
> > The occasional Forced Awakening is not going to cost you any rushes.
>
> But it costs yet more space in your deck, and yet more focus.
Understood. This is a calculated risk.
>
> > It will occasionally take up hand space, which is bad.
>
> Deadly.
I think you overstate this point.
> > But the
> > ability to surprise your predator or prey with a combat they hadn't
> > expected will prevent them from playing their hand out with impunity.
> > It makes a difference. It sure as hell makes a difference to me
> > when I'm dealing with a combat deck and I see this happen. Again,
> > a small amount of something goes a long way (I'm not talking about
> > a lot of Wakes, only a sprinkling of them). It has a cost, but
> > relative to the benefit, it's well worth it in my experience.
>
> You say this as if you think I haven't _tried_ having intercept and
> wakes in a combat deck. I have. It doesn't work.
Well, as I said, it works for me. And when I play the other side of
it, it certainly slows me down when I see other combat decks do it.
I'd sort of like the opinion of others, here. Anyone else have an
opinion, one way or another? Does a small amount of wake and permanent
intercept help a rush combat deck or does it just defocus it?
> Sure, you can
> occasionally be all crafty and surprise somebody. But the whole point
> of having a rush deck is to have an active defense. Your vote defense?
> Rush the voters. Bleed defense? Rush the bleeders. This strategy,
> while it doesn't always work (vs. fortitude, etc.) is more consistent,
> and can't be foiled by yet other strategies like stealth.
Agreed, if you run into stealth actions greater than +1, it's a waste.
It's just that the investment in this so *small* that I have no problem
with the few occasions it misfires. (I don't understand why you think a
couple of intercept locations and a few Forced Wakes are that much of a
sacrifice.) And, to me anyway, the effect is very noticeable and usually
worthwhile.
Fred
Gomi no Sensei
Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>> [intercept cards in rush decks]
>It's not so much that I want to that specifically. But it's very
>very useful to slow down the development of both your predator and
>prey's positions. And a little bit of stuff like this does have a
>striking effect towards that end. I understand your desire to go
>balls out as you do your rush combat. I'm just saying that if you
>perhaps sacrifice the odd master phase action, pool, and occasionally
>draw and hold a Forced Awakening, the amount of delay you reap from
>it has always seemed to me to be well worth the minor inconvenience.
My general problem with this is that any delay is always to the detriment
of the Rush deck. Rush, much more than other deck archetypes, relies
on speed of execution (in both senses) to win (in my limited experience --
see my plaintive posts on a different thread). There are precious few
actions that are critical enough that blocking them makes up for
(a) not rushing and killing someone or (b) holding a Forced Awakening
in hand for n turns, for any value of n exceeding 2. In almost every
case that I can think of where a Rush deck might want to block an
action, they'd be better off attacking the entities benefited by that
action -- vampires.
gomi
--
you say they taught you how to read and write
yeah, they taught you how to count
i say they taught you how to buy and sell
your own body by the pound
cantila
> card – name ecapes me, something with "blood" – that makes you immune
to
> non-aggravated damage, you can't strike, but your carrion crows, DotB
etc. do
> the job for you – scary!
>
Haven't seen a description of this card anywhere, does anyone have the
actual card text?
Joshua Duffin
fre...@netcom.com wrote:
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> >
> > The problem with "just throwing in a couple intercept masters
> > and Forced Awakenings", to me, is mainly on the masters side.
> > There are fourteen masters in my standard Brujah/!Brujah pot/
> > cel rush deck: 3 Blood Doll, 3 Potence, 3 Celerity, 4 Haven
> > Uncovered, 1 Fragment of the Book of Nod. What do you take
> > out to put in KRCG or Rumor Mill or London Evening Star? If
> > you don't put in more than one, you're not even very likely
> > to get any use out of it. And if you put them in without
> > taking out other masters, you significantly increase your
> > chances of master hand-jam, which is (no kidding) deadly for
> > an all-rush deck.
>
> Yes, I see your point. It depends on the Rush deck, of course,
> whether you think you need all of the Discipline cards. I'm
> only proposing a couple of press locations, so a) it shouldn't
> affect your master card selection that much; and b) you may take
> from this that I don't consider the point of intercept to be
> completely essential. In short, the press locations often won't
> come up (or not early enough to get a lot of use out of them),
> so you'll often have to do without. Even so, the Wakes are still
> useful since the really really bad actions you usually want to
> stop are often not at stealth (unless the stealth was provided
> separately).
I couldn't figure out why you kept calling them "press"
locations, and then I just got it: because they're all news
media. Funny!
In my experience, most rush decks (though not all) rely on
small vampires to (a) keep their vamps from biting too deeply
into their starting pool, so that they have at least some
cushion to work with when people start damaging them, and (2)
make sure that they can get out vamps early in the game to
start making carnage. Because of that, skill cards show up
a lot (at least in my rush decks). In rush decks that use
fewer skill cards (and bigger vampires), there is usually
some other schtick being used - 2nd Traditions, 5ths, Minion
Taps, Anathemas, or some such; these are already generally
not pure rush decks and the wake/intercept angle is therefore
less of a divergence for them.
Also, the other piece of why I often find Wakes ineffective
in rush decks is that most opposing decks that want to do
bad things to me have already considered the possibility of
being blocked, and are either playing with stealth or other
means of getting their actions through, making it unlikely
that I'll be able to block even if I do wake. There are
exceptions of course - tap and bleed, etc - but even the
Sensory Deprivation that you cited as being at no stealth
can have +1 stealth added with Fata Morgana (fine if you have
out an intercept location already, but if not, you're just
as screwed as if you'd never had the Wake).
> > Likewise, what do you take out for the Forced Awakenings? If
> > you remove Rushes, you increase your chances of getting ousted
> > because you didn't have a Rush when you needed it (if your
> > FA didn't make you able to block the action that killed you).
> > If you remove combat cards, your combat efficiency decreases.
>
> Yep, granted, it's sacrifice. I just think that as long as it's
> kept to a minimum, it shouldn't be a big sacrifice. It's just
> enough to cause doubt. If you're regularly getting hand jam
> because of it - even with the combat flow going on - then
> something's wrong.
Maybe so. I think it does depend on the metagame environment
you're looking at, as well as how intimidated your opponents
can be by seeing that you may have an occasional Wake and +1
intercept.
Josh
caught! can I get a witness?
Noal McDonald
> Immortal Grapple combat vs. most other combat decks doesn't work
> well at all from what I can tell.
I could easily test that theory. The last Tuesday Night game, four of
the five decks on the table were combat decks of one form or another.
Pretty decent array, too. A Lasombra Thoughts Betrayed pitch deck, a
Malk/!Malk Mind of a Child asassination/Graverob/Malk Time Auction deck,
a Fortitude/Obfuscate/Assault Rifle deck, and a weenies with weapons
deck. It was brutal. The one guy that had a vote deck got squashed.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
James Coupe
> into a combat you have a certain kill! Immortal Grapple combat vs. most
> other combat decks doesn't work well at all from what I can tell.
Well, it does and it doesn't.
If you play the weenie rush decks favoured by PDB6, Josh et al, no. I
tend to find that they get hit hard and die.
However, a number of decks in the UK that I've seen have had big vampires
with Fortitude. I recall a very nice fortitude-potence deck I played a
couple of years ago. Sheldon and Jimmy Dunn were luvverly in it.
More recently, a number of the Southampton lot have played Gangrelly decks
with animalism, fortitude, potence and protean.
Carrion Crows et al provide nice damage on top, a close range punch with
Immortal Grapple and Fortitude to stop your damage. Protean can do a
little claw, or maybe a Flesh of Marble.
Not an IG deck in the weenie sense, but a combat deck that uses IG well,
certainly.
Jasper Phillips
Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <3A02539B...@netcom.com>,
>Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>> [intercept cards in rush decks]
>
>>It's not so much that I want to that specifically. But it's very
>>very useful to slow down the development of both your predator and
>>prey's positions. And a little bit of stuff like this does have a
>>striking effect towards that end. I understand your desire to go
>>balls out as you do your rush combat. I'm just saying that if you
>>perhaps sacrifice the odd master phase action, pool, and occasionally
>>draw and hold a Forced Awakening, the amount of delay you reap from
>>it has always seemed to me to be well worth the minor inconvenience.
>
>My general problem with this is that any delay is always to the detriment
>of the Rush deck. Rush, much more than other deck archetypes, relies
>on speed of execution (in both senses) to win (in my limited experience --
>see my plaintive posts on a different thread). There are precious few
>actions that are critical enough that blocking them makes up for
>(a) not rushing and killing someone or (b) holding a Forced Awakening
>in hand for n turns, for any value of n exceeding 2. In almost every
>case that I can think of where a Rush deck might want to block an
>action, they'd be better off attacking the entities benefited by that
>action -- vampires.
Moreover, even if you can untap, what if the person uses any stealth?
You'll need at least +1 intercept to do you much good. This is even more
cards held in your hand, equip actions, or perhaps some master cards --
all of which are at a huge premium in fast cycling deck.
You end up needing to dedicate a signifigant portion of of your deck
to something that usually won't do anything for you -- and that you may
have a difficult time getting rid of when you can't. Sure, having 10%
of your rush deck be dedicated to intercept doesn't seem like much, until
you've been through a couple of combats and can't start another because
you're sitting on several cards usefull for intercept, a couple of master
cards, and a unbalanced selection of combat cards.
The odd intercept can be usefull ocassionaly, but will more often jam
your hand and kill you. You can only use a small number of non-combat
cards and still be able to always rush with every action. These end
up being master cards, because you can find ones that are always usefull,
more powerfull, and are more easily gotten rid of than intercept.
Jasper Phillips
Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Gomi no Sensei wrote:
>> In article <3A02539B...@netcom.com>,
>> Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> [intercept cards in rush decks]
>>
>> >It's not so much that I want to that specifically. But it's very
>> >very useful to slow down the development of both your predator and
>> >prey's positions. And a little bit of stuff like this does have a
>> >striking effect towards that end. I understand your desire to go
>> >balls out as you do your rush combat. I'm just saying that if you
>> >perhaps sacrifice the odd master phase action, pool, and occasionally
>> >draw and hold a Forced Awakening, the amount of delay you reap from
>> >it has always seemed to me to be well worth the minor inconvenience.
>>
>> My general problem with this is that any delay is always to the detriment
>> of the Rush deck. Rush, much more than other deck archetypes, relies
>> on speed of execution (in both senses) to win (in my limited experience --
>> see my plaintive posts on a different thread).
>
>equate holding a few FAs with the term "delay". It doesn't delay. Rush
>your little heart out. Just hold onto an FA every now and again. Thus
>hurts your hand size, I concede. But it's not a delay.
Not true. If you hand jams with cards so you can't rush, then you have
been (probably fatally) delayed.
>> There are precious few actions that are critical enough that blocking
>> them makes up for (a) not rushing and killing someone or (b) holding a
>> Forced Awakening in hand for n turns, for any value of n exceeding 2.
>
>Oh, man, I really have trouble with that statement. Sensory Deprivation
>is an obvious one. Another obvious one is if you happen to be forced to
>leave a minion in torpor at the end of your turn for some reason, someone
>can diablerize. Equipping with an Ivory Bow or a Sengir Dagger or
>something equally mean. Actually, there's lots of opponents can do that
>would make me want to dig my fingernails into the card table.
IMHO these are all fairly worthless. Equip actions are horribly slow,
and how the heck are you going to get a rush combat deck to use Sensory
Deprivation without having _huge_ vampires?
>> In almost every
>> case that I can think of where a Rush deck might want to block an
>> action, they'd be better off attacking the entities benefited by that
>> action -- vampires.
>
>I'm not sure I see the difference. A combat is a combat; it's just that
>you don't control the reaction combats as much. The advantage is that
>you make them fail at whatever action they attempted, which is nothing
>to sneeze at.
There's a big difference between rushing something before it has a
chance to act, and failling to intercept so you have to rush after
the minion has acted. Often 6 pool of difference.