most cost-effective vampires ?
Reyda
which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
here are my comments, sorted by capacity up to the 6 pointers.
A little poll at the end to know your opinion about the "cookie cutters"
Feel free to complete, contradict, comment ;)
1 capacity :
Antoinette Duchamp.
Pre/cel on a one cap is too good to be true, and her flaw will never annoy
you. She's good for those 3 pool bleeds, or for weenie guns or weenie
politics. The coolest 1-cap vampire just behind her may be Igo for the
pro/pre combo which fits in the torrie protean deck, and grants him free
combat ends with a hint of agg damage.
2 capacity :
Magdalena Shaeffer.
THA = steel blood. Wether by cryptic missions, theft of vitaes, drain
essence... Maybe one of the most annoying small cap in combat. Shortly
followed by Spleen, Giorgio gutterpunk (personnal bias) and Marciana
Giovanni, investigator for her handyspecial.
3 capacity :
Zoe.
Superior auspex, for deflecting, blocking with all those extra maneuvers or
prevention from aus cards. Eagle sight also comes to mind. Obf for bleeding
or even passing votes via Telepathic vote counting. Celerity for the nasty
weapon you may have in disguise...
4 capacity :
Jimmy Dunn.
No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
5 capacity :
If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
spring to mind.
6 capacity :
Sela, of course ;)
POT PRE cel obt means fight, vote, stealth, and intercept. +1 vote is always
cool, plus she can call templar+voter cap... She stole Anvil's throne for
sure =)
Very few decks use 5 disciplines from a vampire. However some of them are
useful just by being there (fortitude for anti-kiss of ra, and maybe potence
for meat hook and celerity for some cornercase cards.)
Artemis may then be one of the best 6 cap on this reasoning.
Some specials are also very valuable if you want to use them, like Agaitas'.
There is also a great debate about the cookie cutter 6 cap as they were
introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ? Won't
you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special ?
Poll : which would have your preference when builidng a deck ?
Ox vs Christianus ?
Ox vs Beast ? (extra pool)
Ox vs Kendrick ? (extra pool)
Caliban vs Corine Marcon ?
Caliban vs Dragos ? (extra pool)
Dolphin black vs Artemis ?
Dolphin black vs Korah ? (extra pool)
reyda
Matthew T. Morgan
> Just to make people talk a bit...
> which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
> here are my comments, sorted by capacity up to the 6 pointers.
> A little poll at the end to know your opinion about the "cookie cutters"
> Feel free to complete, contradict, comment ;)
>
> 1 capacity :
> Antoinette Duchamp.
> Pre/cel on a one cap is too good to be true, and her flaw will never annoy
> you. She's good for those 3 pool bleeds, or for weenie guns or weenie
> politics. The coolest 1-cap vampire just behind her may be Igo for the
> pro/pre combo which fits in the torrie protean deck, and grants him free
> combat ends with a hint of agg damage.
No argument there. I actually think Eddie Gaines is pretty good, even
with a fairly severe drawback. Antoinette, with two useful disciplines
and no drawback is really too good.
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
> THA = steel blood. Wether by cryptic missions, theft of vitaes, drain
> essence... Maybe one of the most annoying small cap in combat. Shortly
> followed by Spleen, Giorgio gutterpunk (personnal bias) and Marciana
> Giovanni, investigator for her handyspecial.
Marciana wins hands down in my book. Magdalena is a one-trick pony and
Spleen will have limited use (although I agree he's pretty good).
Marciana can benefit any deck that uses dominate and many that don't.
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
> Superior auspex, for deflecting, blocking with all those extra maneuvers or
> prevention from aus cards. Eagle sight also comes to mind. Obf for bleeding
> or even passing votes via Telepathic vote counting. Celerity for the nasty
> weapon you may have in disguise...
No question there. No stealth on hunting isn't a big deal, especially
since she has obfuscate. Blythe Candeleria is pretty good as well.
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
> No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
Chas can be useful, but it's so hard to get a crucial action with him
through. DOM POT tends to be a proactive strategy. I'd place one of the
several "SUPERIOR inferior for 4" vamps ahead of Chas. How about
Parmenides? If I had a dollar every time I saw him in play, I could buy
an Ancient Hearts booster display and a cup of coffee.
> 5 capacity :
> If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
> of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
> less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
> discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
> spring to mind.
I've put Rigby in a couple of decks lately (one cel pot and the other aus
pot) and always been a little dissappointed to see her in my uncontrolled
region. I guess I should make a CEL PRE deck, eh? I like some other 5
caps like Nigel, but I guess Rigby is the best using the criteria you
stated.
> 6 capacity :
> Sela, of course ;)
> POT PRE cel obt means fight, vote, stealth, and intercept. +1 vote is always
> cool, plus she can call templar+voter cap... She stole Anvil's throne for
> sure =)
Anvil can bounce, which is nice, but yeah I like Sela too. The +1 bleed
is just great. I won a storyline finals based on it. :)
> Very few decks use 5 disciplines from a vampire. However some of them are
> useful just by being there (fortitude for anti-kiss of ra, and maybe potence
> for meat hook and celerity for some cornercase cards.)
> Artemis may then be one of the best 6 cap on this reasoning.
> Some specials are also very valuable if you want to use them, like Agaitas'.
>
> There is also a great debate about the cookie cutter 6 cap as they were
> introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
> discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ? Won't
> you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special ?
>
>
> Poll : which would have your preference when builidng a deck ?
> Ox vs Christianus ?
If the deck is potence-based, then Ox. Otherwise Christianus.
Truthfully, most !nos decks I build use a lot of potence.
> Ox vs Beast ? (extra pool)
Beast, unless it's a Computer Hack deck.
> Ox vs Kendrick ? (extra pool)
Kendrick.
> Caliban vs Corine Marcon ?
Corine.
> Caliban vs Dragos ? (extra pool)
Caliban. Dragos costs an extra pool and has inferior vicissitude.
> Dolphin black vs Artemis ?
Dolphin Black. Artemis can't bounce!
> Dolphin black vs Korah ? (extra pool)
Korah. Great way to pick up Bribes or force the voter to put some KRC
damage on your prey.
Matt Morgan
Colin Goodman
When sorting through the vampires I make choices based on how useful a given
vampire will be in the deck that I'm building. Sure that may mean I don't go
with the most cost effective but if it works then it works.
-------------------------
Cambridge by Night.
http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html
Janne Hägglund
> which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
> 1 capacity :
> Antoinette Duchamp.
Amen, brother! Her only true drawback is her capacity.
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
Marciana Giovanni. If they punch her to torpor, she'll *still* help you
out with her special ability. Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
> 5 capacity :
> If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
> of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
> less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
> discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
> spring to mind.
Isabel Giovanni, The Godess of Giovanni Bleed. Even her art says
"Seduction + Necromancy". A five cap that bleeds you for six and makes you
*like it*. :-)
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
Albert Chang
> which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
For cost-effective I'm all over Carna...7 cap with 6 points worth of
disciplines, a title (sure it's primogen, but it's still a vote) and a very
useful special (+1 intercept)...she's great.
Albert
Timlagor
Her and Donal o'Connor.
Did someone fail to mention Ian Forrestal?
Arika's not too shabby ;-P
Orpheus
> > > Just to make people talk a bit...
> > > which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
> >
> > For cost-effective I'm all over Carna...7 cap with 6 points worth of
> > disciplines, a title (sure it's primogen, but it's still a vote) and a
very
> > useful special (+1 intercept)...she's great.
Greta Kircher : 7 points of (very useful) disciplines, and a very good
special. Just ask Jo... ;-)
Matthias is just great, but arguably his scarcity makes up for his
greatness.
> Her and Donal o'Connor.
He doesn't play in the same league.
> Did someone fail to mention Ian Forrestal?
He is good in very few marginal decks.
> Arika's not too shabby ;-P
She is very expensive, even if she no doubt is the more cost-effective of
all 11-caps (and a pain in her prey's butt anytime).
Orpheus
salem
scrawled:
she also has the other special, too. the burn her retainer for blood.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
noodleboy
> introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
> discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ?
Personally, I live for the day when WW give us a Lasombra 6 pointer
with 3 inclans at SUP. The cheapest Lasombra with POT,DOM,OBF atm is
Fransisco, who weighs in at a mighty 9 pool.
Ridiculous.
>Won't you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special
?
I also live for the day the Lasombra get a 7 pointer with a title, OR
a cool special. :)
noodleboy
Albert Chang
news:hmb3qvslvcf9mbe8r...@4ax.com...
> she also has the other special, too. the burn her retainer for blood.
Yea, but that special's a bit cornercase, but hey, it sure doesn't hurt.
Thomas Pichler
> Poll : which would have your preference when builidng a deck ?
Not really a very good question, considering this may depend heavily on
the deck.
> Ox vs Christianus ?
If little or no pot, Christianus hands down. If heavy pot, Ox for sure.
> Ox vs Beast ? (extra pool)
Beast. Unless of course for some reason, it's very much a non-combat
deck.
> Ox vs Kendrick ? (extra pool)
Kendrick.
> Caliban vs Corine Marcon ?
Corine.
> Caliban vs Dragos ? (extra pool)
Caliban.
> Dolphin black vs Artemis ?
For a !Malk deck, Dolphin. Artemis would have more potential if trying
to use Anarchs, I guess.
> Dolphin black vs Korah ? (extra pool)
Korah.
Thomas Pichler
JH
> > There is also a great debate about the cookie cutter 6 cap as they were
> > introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
> > discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ?
>
> Personally, I live for the day when WW give us a Lasombra 6 pointer
> with 3 inclans at SUP. The cheapest Lasombra with POT,DOM,OBF atm is
> Fransisco, who weighs in at a mighty 9 pool.
>
> Ridiculous.
Ventrue antitribu have the same problem. But they also have only 2 vampires,
Quentin and Lazverinus, with all inclans at SUP, compared to Lasombra's 5.
Reyda
"JH" <jhat...@tenerdo.org> wrote in message
news:6abef418.03103...@posting.google.com...
Yes and that does not make them less playable.
i play them a lot and prefer all the useful specials the !ventrue possess
instead of having them done the cookie cutter way, really.
Reyda
"Albert Chang" <na...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bns4ce$6oi$1...@joe.rice.edu...
She's quite great but my favorite interceptor is still Kite =)
7cap, 6 points of disciplines, +1 intercept and bishop.
I agree that Carna wins the match 'cause she has all her inclan at superior
here... But fast reaction/coma is too good to be left aside ;)
Dieter
Yip, and i feel very familar in that infernal corner ;o)
Greets
Dieter
Emmanuel Martin
> Antoinette Duchamp.
Well, no much doubt on this one
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
Marciana Giovanni seems better : awesome special, deflection & bleed
capacity
>
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
I would like here to be a little tricky and say Tariq, though he is
not exactly undercosted.
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
Definitely second for me. My vote goes to Michael Luther, a guy I
would still put in any vote deck if he costed 5, and in some if he
costed 6. Jimmy Dunn is just slighly undercosted, this saves you a
pool and this is powerfull, but not as much as Luther's ability
>
> 5 capacity :
Le Din Tho ? Volker or Isabel Giovanni could be alternatives. None of
these being truly undercosted.
>
> 6 capacity :
Vote for Dolphin Black. Not the funniest one but ... . In fact I don't
know undercosted 6 caps
Fredrik Appelberg
> Just to make people talk a bit...
> which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
> here are my comments, sorted by capacity up to the 6 pointers.
> A little poll at the end to know your opinion about the "cookie cutters"
> Feel free to complete, contradict, comment ;)
>
> 1 capacity :
> Antoinette Duchamp.
> Pre/cel on a one cap is too good to be true, and her flaw will never annoy
> you. She's good for those 3 pool bleeds, or for weenie guns or weenie
> politics. The coolest 1-cap vampire just behind her may be Igo for the
> pro/pre combo which fits in the torrie protean deck, and grants him free
> combat ends with a hint of agg damage.
March Halcyon. A one-cap with fortitude can't be wrong. Ever. Even her
drawback is good; sometimes you just want someone to diablerize her so
that you can bring another one out.
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
> THA = steel blood. Wether by cryptic missions, theft of vitaes, drain
> essence... Maybe one of the most annoying small cap in combat. Shortly
> followed by Spleen, Giorgio gutterpunk (personnal bias) and Marciana
> Giovanni, investigator for her handyspecial.
I would say one if the 2-caps with Dominate (Samson, Mustafa Rahman,
Ohanna), mainly because there great synergy between them. Remember, even
a weenie with inferior dom is able to drop a bleed for 5 on a careless
predator.
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
> Superior auspex, for deflecting, blocking with all those extra maneuvers or
> prevention from aus cards. Eagle sight also comes to mind. Obf for bleeding
> or even passing votes via Telepathic vote counting. Celerity for the nasty
> weapon you may have in disguise...
Watenda.
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
> No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
Jimmy rocks. Ingrid Russo is also a favourite.
> 5 capacity :
> If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
> of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
> less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
> discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
> spring to mind.
Volker! He's a prince! He does all the stuff that princes are supposed
to, for a measly five pool! It doesn't get any more cost-effective than
that.
-- Fredrik
Noal McDonald
> 1 capacity :
> Antoinette Duchamp.
I disagree with this one. Pound for pound, the best 1 cap is Uriah
Winter. He's got for/pot and a special that you can build decks
around. No other 1 cap can be a lynch pin of a deck like him.
Regards,
Noal
Darky
> Just to make people talk a bit...
> which do you think are the most cost effective vampires ?
> here are my comments, sorted by capacity up to the 6 pointers.
> A little poll at the end to know your opinion about the "cookie cutters"
> Feel free to complete, contradict, comment ;)
>
> 1 capacity :
> Antoinette Duchamp.
> Pre/cel on a one cap is too good to be true, and her flaw will never annoy
> you. She's good for those 3 pool bleeds, or for weenie guns or weenie
> politics. The coolest 1-cap vampire just behind her may be Igo for the
> pro/pre combo which fits in the torrie protean deck, and grants him free
> combat ends with a hint of agg damage.
agreed.
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
> THA = steel blood. Wether by cryptic missions, theft of vitaes, drain
> essence... Maybe one of the most annoying small cap in combat. Shortly
> followed by Spleen, Giorgio gutterpunk (personnal bias) and Marciana
> Giovanni, investigator for her handyspecial.
I think Marciana is slightly better
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
> Superior auspex, for deflecting, blocking with all those extra maneuvers or
> prevention from aus cards. Eagle sight also comes to mind. Obf for bleeding
> or even passing votes via Telepathic vote counting. Celerity for the nasty
> weapon you may have in disguise...
I would say Gideon, PRE at 3cap is really mean.
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
> No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
agreed.
> 5 capacity :
> If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
> of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
> less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
> discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
> spring to mind.
>
> 6 capacity :
> Sela, of course ;)
> POT PRE cel obt means fight, vote, stealth, and intercept. +1 vote is always
> cool, plus she can call templar+voter cap... She stole Anvil's throne for
> sure =)
I personally think Jost is more cost effective, as is Sheila Mezarin..
but maybe that's just because i think AUS is more useful as POT :) she
even has fortitude for the kiss of ra :)
> There is also a great debate about the cookie cutter 6 cap as they were
> introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
> discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ? Won't
> you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special ?
>
>
> Poll : which would have your preference when builidng a deck ?
> Ox vs Christianus ?
Ox most likely, as any !nos i've ever played had potence :)
> Ox vs Beast ? (extra pool)
Beast most likely.
> Ox vs Kendrick ? (extra pool)
Kendrick most likely.
> Caliban vs Corine Marcon ?
Caliban most likely, since ANI VIC is exceedingly rare in tzimis :)
> Caliban vs Dragos ? (extra pool)
Caliban, noone likes dragos :)
> Dolphin black vs Artemis ?
Unless i'm playing malk/!malk with for, Dolphin.
> Dolphin black vs Korah ? (extra pool)
Korah
Reyda
"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:bb705c59.03103...@posting.google.com...
I was pretty sure you would react on this one, noal ;)
yeah i like Uriah very much but he is not "reliable" enough for me to put
him in my decks ;)
Andrea
> Antoinette Duchamp.
agree, but i would vote for Basil: he is the cheapest attacker and
another kineRC played in a turn. also very good for destroying Army of
rats :)))
>
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
dunno. very bad special in combat: theft of vitae costing 1 blood. no
good.
but i don't see other better 2 caps
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
Yesssss
>
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
> No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
disagree: everybody forgets her, but she is in every good deck...
Ingrid Russo
DOM for deflecting in conjunction with for: unblockable bleeds for 6
or unblockable graverobbing. she is THE perfect 4caps
>
> 5 capacity :
> If only for the numbers I'd say Rigby because for 5 points, you get 6 points
> of discipline and no real flaw. But at this point many other vampires have
> less points of discipline (like only 5) but the combination of those
> discipline is very strong. Catherine du bois, Rajan Rishi, Camille & Raven
> spring to mind.
somebody else reminded Volker
but are all good vamps
>
> 6 capacity :
> Sela, of course ;)
> POT PRE cel obt means fight, vote, stealth, and intercept. +1 vote is always
> cool, plus she can call templar+voter cap... She stole Anvil's throne for
> sure =)
never! anvil rocks :)
but as best 6 caps i remember joaquina amaya: the only one to have 3
inclans sup and a handy special
but there are too many good 6 caps
> Artemis may then be one of the best 6 cap on this reasoning, like Agaitas'.
agree ;)
>
> There is also a great debate about the cookie cutter 6 cap as they were
> introduced in Sabbat War. Which one do you prefer ? a 6 cap with 3 inclan
> discipline at superior or a 6 cap with variety and/or a cool special ? Won't
> you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special ?
inclans superior (unless some very good special and the right
disciplines;)
>
>
> Poll : which would have your preference when builidng a deck ?
> Ox vs Christianus ?
Christianus
> Ox vs Beast ? (extra pool)
Ox for his ANI
> Ox vs Kendrick ? (extra pool)
Kendrick
> Caliban vs Corine Marcon ?
Corine
> Caliban vs Dragos ? (extra pool)
Dragos
> Dolphin black vs Artemis ?
Dolphin
> Dolphin black vs Korah ? (extra pool)
Korah
>
> reyda
Andrea
Albert Chang
"Andrea" <aea...@yahoo.it> wrote in message
news:f27fffb8.0310...@posting.google.com...
> > 2 capacity :
> > Magdalena Shaeffer.
> dunno. very bad special in combat: theft of vitae costing 1 blood. no
> good.
> but i don't see other better 2 caps
Well, with superior thaumaturgy, theft may cost one, but she still gets two
back...so really theft costing one for her I don't think makes too much of a
difference.
Warpath
> In fact I don't know any undercosted 6 caps
Jost!
He is evil incarnate and becomes a target at most tables.
Johannes Walch
> Antoinette Duchamp.
Don´t forget Fast Eddie (Gaines)
> 2 capacity :
> Magdalena Shaeffer.
Marciana is the best, closely followed by Horatio (2nd turn War Ghoul rocks)
and Boy Toy (big brother of Fast Eddie).
> 3 capacity :
> Zoe.
Zoe is VERY good and has one of the coolest pictures around. Also
mentionable : Isabel de Leon(AUS), Rudolfo Giovanni(NEC) and Lazar Dobrescu
(awesome special).
> 4 capacity :
> Jimmy Dunn.
> No need to argue ;) but i'll personnaly put Chas just in second position.
Jimmy Dunn rocks.
Chas is not a good vampire. He effectively cannot take actions :-)
Ingrid Russo, Mariana Gilbert and Hadrian Garrick are the other good 4-caps
I can think of. Actually I don´t see much too-good 4-caps anyway.
> 5 capacity :
Volker(smallest prince) and Le Dinh Tho(awesome special).
Quite a lot of 5-caps are very usable.
> 6 capacity :
> Sela, of course ;)
> POT PRE cel obt means fight, vote, stealth, and intercept. +1 vote is
always
> cool, plus she can call templar+voter cap... She stole Anvil's throne for
> sure =)
I don´t think so. Jost is better. But there are way to many good 6-caps to
argue for 2nd place :-)
--
johannes walch
v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/
Noal McDonald
> > I disagree with this one. Pound for pound, the best 1 cap is Uriah
> > Winter. He's got for/pot and a special that you can build decks
> > around. No other 1 cap can be a lynch pin of a deck like him.
>
> I was pretty sure you would react on this one, noal ;)
Heh. It is true that most people associate Uriah Winter with me. :-)
> yeah i like Uriah very much but he is not "reliable" enough for me to put
> him in my decks ;)
Well, when you build a deck around him, it creates a very interesting
dynamic. If your prey doesn't know what you're up to, he'll be happy
to get Uriah, not realizing that he's been fed a poison pill. If he
does know what you're up to, he'll try to keep his pool low to avoid
getting him, which is still to your benefit because it makes him
easier to oust. Powerbase DC, is of course, the one card that I
consider essential to any Uriah Winter based deck due to it's ability
to allow you to spend up to 3 pool during your untap pahse, in order
to trigger Uriah.
Antoinette, is certainly a very good vampire. She's just not one that
you can base a deck off of.
By the way, I'm eventually going to figure out how to make an
effective Rex deck and then you will all tremble before my might. ;-)
Regards,
Noal
Derek Ray
"Albert Chang" <na...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
Theft doesn't even cost one for her. Card text:
Magdelena Schaefer: Vampire, Caitiff, Group 2, Capacity 2, THA
If Magdelena uses a strike that requires Thaumaturgy, she burns an
additional blood.
She burns a blood when she plays the strike card. In other words, at
zero, she plays Theft, burns 1, ignores the burn-blood effect because
she's at zero, then steals 2 and is full.
Very good vampire in thefty-THA decks.
-- Derek
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
Albert Chang
> >Well, with superior thaumaturgy, theft may cost one, but she still gets
two
> >back...so really theft costing one for her I don't think makes too much
of a
> >difference.
>
> Theft doesn't even cost one for her. Card text:
>
> Magdelena Schaefer: Vampire, Caitiff, Group 2, Capacity 2, THA
> If Magdelena uses a strike that requires Thaumaturgy, she burns an
> additional blood.
>
> She burns a blood when she plays the strike card. In other words, at
> zero, she plays Theft, burns 1, ignores the burn-blood effect because
> she's at zero, then steals 2 and is full.
>
> Very good vampire in thefty-THA decks.
Well, if she's at one or two, then she has to burn one to play the theft and
it effectively costs one, but yea, it doesn't explicitly cost one more and
at zero her disadvantage makes no difference. You'll get no argument from
me that she's a very good vampire in a thefty-THA deck, that was the point I
was trying to make.
Albert
Hollowboy
> with 3 inclans at SUP. The cheapest Lasombra with POT,DOM,OBF atm is
> Fransisco, who weighs in at a mighty 9 pool.
>
> Ridiculous.
>
> >Won't you rather pat one more pool to have a title or a good special
> ?
>
> I also live for the day the Lasombra get a 7 pointer with a title, OR
> a cool special. :)
>
> noodleboy
Hmmm... I can see why (as a Lasombra clan fan) you would want this,
but I think maybe it's appropriate that they don't have a perfect
midcap. I think it's because of the discipline spread. Most clans have
a support discipline, that only REALLY supports half of what the clan
can do.
THe Lasombra have OBT, and OBT supports their other two disciplines
better than (almost) any other 3 disciplines go together. Compare them
with Toreador, for example:
Lasombra
Dom - bleed / action Discipline
Pot - combat discipline
Obt - support discipline
Dom / Obt - do they work well together? Yes. They bleed / Mind Rape /
Graverob etc just as well as the old school Malks do, with Path /
Hungry Coyote to offset the major downside, the blood costs. Plus it
gives combat ends, which can make them more robust than Obf / Dom.
Pot / Obt - do they work well together? Yes. They fight as well as the
POT CEL, the classic fighting combo. With OBT POT It's not as easy to
do 9 damage per round, but it does gives funky extra possibilities
like stealthy rushes, Entombment (a fortitude beater that the Bruhaj
cannot match), Darkness Within and the uber-rares, which must be
expensive for a reason :-) All this plus Acrobatics for free is
obviously pretty sweet.
Toreador
Pre - Vote / action discipline
Cel - combat discipline
Aus - support discipline
Cel / Aus - do they work well together? Yes. Now that concealed weapon
has been changed, it's pretty viable. Block blam! blam! is fun and
easy. Particularly if you can snoop out their hand via Aura Reading.
Pre / Aus - do they work well together? Nope, not really.
You can do a similar comparison with lots of clans - does OBF really
support ANI for the nossies? Does AUS really provide support for
Tremere DOM? Is Giovanni NEC POT halfway as good as OBT POT?
The only clan whose disciplines interlock as well as the Lasombra's
are, off the top of my head, the Tzim and Gangrel. But you have argued
that the Tzim are not a high powered clan, and that comaat is for
chumps so this synergy can't have done them as much good as it has
done the Lasombra :-)
I reckon OBT POT DOM is just too good to get a weenified crypt,
nothing ridiculous about it. The Lasombra would have all their current
goodness, plus maybe be able to beat other clans at their own game.
For example, if an OBT POT became as cheap as a CEL POT crypt, there
would be less Bruhaj combat, cos the LAsombra could do pretty much the
same thing, with cheaper access to bleed bounce and other dom goodies.
Andrea
> POT CEL, the classic fighting combo. With OBT POT It's not as easy to
> do 9 damage per round, but it does gives funky extra possibilities
> like stealthy rushes, Entombment (a fortitude beater that the Bruhaj
> cannot match), Darkness Within and the uber-rares, which must be
> expensive for a reason :-) All this plus Acrobatics for free is
> obviously pretty sweet.
>
> Toreador
> Pre - Vote / action discipline
> Cel - combat discipline
> Aus - support discipline
>
> Cel / Aus - do they work well together? Yes. Now that concealed weapon
> has been changed, it's pretty viable. Block blam! blam! is fun and
> easy. Particularly if you can snoop out their hand via Aura Reading.
>
> Pre / Aus - do they work well together? Nope, not really.
try it Pre/Cel: Cel gives you the most expensive stealth around, but
in my city there is a guy winning tables with this combo
>
> You can do a similar comparison with lots of clans - does OBF really
> support ANI for the nossies? Does AUS really provide support for
> Tremere DOM?
NO, UNTIL THEY PRINT MORE TELEPATHIC TRACKING!!! :(
Is Giovanni NEC POT halfway as good as OBT POT?
>
> I reckon OBT POT DOM is just too good to get a weenified crypt,
> nothing ridiculous about it. The Lasombra would have all their current
> goodness, plus maybe be able to beat other clans at their own game.
> For example, if an OBT POT became as cheap as a CEL POT crypt, there
> would be less Bruhaj combat, cos the LAsombra could do pretty much the
> same thing, with cheaper access to bleed bounce and other dom goodies.
arms of the abyss is useless with immortal grapple: the POT power is
hardly reduced without celerity (unless you have black
metamorphosis)(here nobody has).
and brujah have a very good access to dom deflection or bleed
(eurobrujah)
I think lasombra are a pretty strong clan, and obt is a very good
support discipline, but a midcap with major disciplines (just a 7 or
8cap) would be very good even without a title (more balanced)
now let's see the 4 new lasombras to check what WW thinks of our
discussion
Ciao
Andrea
salem
scrawled:
>"Reyda" wrote:
[snip]
>Heh. It is true that most people associate Uriah Winter with me. :-)
>
>> yeah i like Uriah very much but he is not "reliable" enough for me to put
>> him in my decks ;)
>
>Well, when you build a deck around him, it creates a very interesting
>dynamic. If your prey doesn't know what you're up to, he'll be happy
>to get Uriah, not realizing that he's been fed a poison pill. If he
>does know what you're up to, he'll try to keep his pool low to avoid
>getting him, which is still to your benefit because it makes him
>easier to oust. Powerbase DC, is of course, the one card that I
>consider essential to any Uriah Winter based deck due to it's ability
>to allow you to spend up to 3 pool during your untap pahse, in order
>to trigger Uriah.
That won't help in the short term.:
"<Camarilla:> If your prey has more pool than you do at the beginning
of your untap phase, he or she takes control of Uriah [during your
untap phase]."
Note: beginning.
>Antoinette, is certainly a very good vampire. She's just not one that
>you can base a deck off of.
>
>By the way, I'm eventually going to figure out how to make an
>effective Rex deck and then you will all tremble before my might. ;-)
Use all those non-combat pot-pro-vic cards..... erm... like....
erm.... you know... rampage.
Noal McDonald
> (Noal McDonald)scrawled:
> >easier to oust. Powerbase DC, is of course, the one card that I
> >consider essential to any Uriah Winter based deck due to it's ability
> >to allow you to spend up to 3 pool during your untap pahse, in order
> >to trigger Uriah.
>
> That won't help in the short term.:
> "<Camarilla:> If your prey has more pool than you do at the beginning
> of your untap phase, he or she takes control of Uriah [during your
> untap phase]."
>
> Note: beginning.
When will people learn. Trying to correct me on topics applicable to
Uriah Winter decks is like trying to correct Stephen Hawkings on
physics.
Note the following from the rulebook:
At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your
cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something
during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your
cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place.
Powerbase DC can be used before Uriah Winter's special takes effect.
Regards,
Noal
salem
scrawled:
>When will people learn. Trying to correct me on topics applicable to
>Uriah Winter decks is like trying to correct Stephen Hawkings on
>physics.
>
>Note the following from the rulebook:
>
>At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your
>cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something
>during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your
>cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place.
>
>Powerbase DC can be used before Uriah Winter's special takes effect.
correct.
But, the _checking_ of your pool total to see if uriah moves is done
before you 'activate' his effect, or other untap effects like PB
Washington.
Look at this:
From: LSJ (vte...@MailAndNews.com)
Subject: RE: Uriah Winter / Army of Rats question (LSJ)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Date: 2001-04-27 03:40:22 PST
>===== Original Message From Arnaud Clavel <Arnaud...@renault.com> =====
>'at the beginning' is like 'at the start' , right ? And
>"At the start of the untap phase" is another way of specifying "during
>the untap phase". Neither phrasing specifies a period of time before the
>other. [RTR 19990105]
>IMo, you can choose which effect takes place first and then keep Uriah.
The ruling was made for effects that are to occur "at the beginning"
of the untap phase, and was necessary because the only effect that
could occur at the specified time is "untap all your cards". [4]
For Uriah, you check your pool total at the beginning of the phase
(before untapping anything). Then, if your total is less than your
prey's, you lose Uriah sometime during your untap phase.
>We had the same situation i our playgroup with Uriah coming back from
>contest. We discussed to know weither Uriah was in play at the beginning
>of the untap to know if its effect took place.
If Uriah is in play during your untap phase (and you had less pool
than
your prey at the beginning of the untap phase), then Uriah defects.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
> On 3 Nov 2003 20:42:00 -0800, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald)
> scrawled:
>
> >When will people learn. Trying to correct me on topics applicable to
> >Uriah Winter decks is like trying to correct Stephen Hawkings on
> >physics.
> >
> >Note the following from the rulebook:
> >
> >At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your
> >cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something
> >during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your
> >cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place.
> >
> >Powerbase DC can be used before Uriah Winter's special takes effect.
>
> correct.
>
> But, the _checking_ of your pool total to see if uriah moves is done
> before you 'activate' his effect, or other untap effects like PB
> Washington.
This is clearly correct under current rulings. (LSJ 27-Apr-2001 as Salem
cited: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3AF03626%40MailAndNews.com)
But I'm not clear on what motivates the ruling that Uriah's effect
should be checked before untapping cards, and then handled later, rather
than checked and handled at the same time "during" the untap phase (like
all other untap phase effects after the 5-Jan-1999 RTR:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3692654A.794B%40wizards.com).
It seems like it would be more consistent for Uriah's effect to match
all other untap-phase effects.
Josh
okay, so bartholomew's wording is a little debatable too...
LSJ
> But I'm not clear on what motivates the ruling that Uriah's effect
> should be checked before untapping cards, and then handled later, rather
> than checked and handled at the same time "during" the untap phase (like
Card text provides the motivation.
> all other untap phase effects after the 5-Jan-1999 RTR:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3692654A.794B%40wizards.com).
Checking the total is not an event, so the ruling on events doesn't come
to bear.
> It seems like it would be more consistent for Uriah's effect to match
> all other untap-phase effects.
Uriah's effect is orderable, like all other untap-phase effect, as
Salem cited.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3FA7E525...@white-wolf.com...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > But I'm not clear on what motivates the ruling that Uriah's effect
> > should be checked before untapping cards, and then handled later,
rather
> > than checked and handled at the same time "during" the untap phase
(like
>
> Card text provides the motivation.
>
> > all other untap phase effects after the 5-Jan-1999 RTR:
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3692654A.794B%40wizards.com).
>
> Checking the total is not an event, so the ruling on events doesn't
come
> to bear.
It is for Jeremy Talbot. :-)
"During your untap phase, check your pool total. Jeremy gains 1 blood if
your pool total is even and burns 1 blood if your pool total is odd."
I see what you mean, though. Uriah was originally written "If your prey
has more pool than you do at the beginning of your untap phase, he or
she takes control of Uriah."
It still could have been "corrected" with a phrasing like Jeremy
Talbot's instead of by moving the change of control, but I suppose it
probably more closely matches designer intent the latter way. Although
it's less helpful to Noal's Trojan Horse applications. :-)
Josh
"oh okay, let them in then"
Hollowboy
> > Pre - Vote / action discipline
> > Cel - combat discipline
> > Aus - support discipline
> >
> > Cel / Aus - do they work well together? Yes. Now that concealed weapon
> > has been changed, it's pretty viable. Block blam! blam! is fun and
> > easy. Particularly if you can snoop out their hand via Aura Reading.
> >
> > Pre / Aus - do they work well together? Nope, not really.
>
> try it Pre/Cel: Cel gives you the most expensive stealth around, but
> in my city there is a guy winning tables with this combo
> >
make a winning deck, but most other clans have a discipline pair that
do not go well together. For the Toreador, AUS CEL might be good, and
PRE CEL might be good, but PRE AUS is not an obviously powerful
discipline combo the way OBT DOM is.
> > You can do a similar comparison with lots of clans - does OBF really
> > support ANI for the nossies? Does AUS really provide support for
> > Tremere DOM?
> NO, UNTIL THEY PRINT MORE TELEPATHIC TRACKING!!! :(
I don't understand - how does Telepathic tracking support an AUS DOM
deck?
> > For example, if an OBT POT became as cheap as a CEL POT crypt, there
> > would be less Bruhaj combat, cos the LAsombra could do pretty much the
> > same thing, with cheaper access to bleed bounce and other dom goodies.
>
> arms of the abyss is useless with immortal grapple: the POT power is
> hardly reduced without celerity (unless you have black
> metamorphosis)(here nobody has).
> and brujah have a very good access to dom deflection or bleed
> (eurobrujah)
Lasombra combat can be super-good - noodleboy won the local "fight
club" tournament with it. Plus Lasombra vamps can rush, Graverob,
bleed etc. at stealth a lot more easily than the EuroBruhah can.
>
> I think lasombra are a pretty strong clan, and obt is a very good
> support discipline, but a midcap with major disciplines (just a 7 or
> 8cap) would be very good even without a title (more balanced)
>
7 or 8 cap is getting plump for a "midcap"
> now let's see the 4 new lasombras to check what WW thinks of our
> discussion
>
Indeed!
> Ciao
> Andrea
Johannes Walch
> club" tournament with it. Plus Lasombra vamps can rush, Graverob,
> bleed etc. at stealth a lot more easily than the EuroBruhah can.
Although Lasombra are good (agreed) they are not better than EuroBrujah.
They are balanced like just every other clan (ok there are some clans - a
few - which are not so good. mainly the bloodlines) in the game. Eurobrujah
have access to princes/justicars (and some good ones!) and that gives them
2nd Tradition and ParityShift/Kindred Restructure/Archon. The Lasombra have
nothing comparable. And they are vulnerable to Protect Tine Own. And while
Obtenebration is a very toolboxy discipline many usefull Obt cards have
blood cost which makes them more difficult to use than e.g Celerity cards.
On the other hand there are super good cards like Black Metamorphosis,
Entombment, Power Structure and so on.
Everything is quite balanced as it is. And the Lasombra don´t need much more
midcap vampires.
LSJ
>>to bear.
>
> It is for Jeremy Talbot. :-)
>
> "During your untap phase, check your pool total. Jeremy gains 1 blood if
> your pool total is even and burns 1 blood if your pool total is odd."
>
?
You're equating card text for the application of a ruling?
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> >>Checking the total is not an event, so the ruling on events doesn't
come
> >>to bear.
> >
> > It is for Jeremy Talbot. :-)
> >
> > "During your untap phase, check your pool total. Jeremy gains 1
blood if
> > your pool total is even and burns 1 blood if your pool total is
odd."
> >
>
> ?
> You're equating card text for the application of a ruling?
I'm not sure what this sentence means. But I think the answer is "no".
I was just pointing out that Uriah Winter could have been rewritten this
way for consistency instead of being rewritten the way he was for
(presumably) designer intent.
It's fine that it went the way it did. I just hadn't realized Uriah's
actual status before.
Josh
sorry, didn't mean to drag it on
LSJ
> I was just pointing out that Uriah Winter could have been rewritten this
> way for consistency instead of being rewritten the way he was for
> (presumably) designer intent.
When did Uriah last get printed so as to afford a rewriting?
Joshua Duffin
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > I was just pointing out that Uriah Winter could have been rewritten
this
> > way for consistency instead of being rewritten the way he was for
> > (presumably) designer intent.
>
> When did Uriah last get printed so as to afford a rewriting?
In VTES, I believe. Never mind, okay? Ruling for intent as opposed to
ruling/errataing for consistency is apparently preferred. Not a real
problem. And I may not even be right about the two potential
approaches. :-)
Josh
if loving uriah is wrong i don't want to be right