NRA rule + cards that provide two separate actions

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robert joseph

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Sep 9, 2010, 4:39:25 PM9/9/10
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A question came up on IRC today about how the no repeat actions
rule applies when you have a card that provides multiple
separate actions. I've already received an answer from Scott,
but it seemed like I should post here to make sure the
answer can be accessed by everybody.

Section 6.1.6 of the rulebook, last two paragraphs:

To take the action described by a card in play, announce the action and
tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as
indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is
unsuccessful, there is no effect.

A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card or via the
same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than
once each turn, even if he untaps.

Any of the following five cards (and perhaps others) could be used as
an example of a card in play providing multiple separate actions:

Gregory Winter
Dauntain Black Magician
Kaymakli Fragment
Barbaro Lucchese
Virstania, The Great Mother

Here's Greg Winter's text, since he's my favorite out of that list:

During your untap phase, Gregory burns 1 life. He can steal a blood
(gaining a life) from a vampire controlled by another Methuselah as
a +1 stealth (D) action. He can burn a vampire in torpor to gain 2
life as a (D) action.


--
Bob Joseph jos...@cse.ohio-state.edu
http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~joseph

The Lasombra

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Sep 9, 2010, 4:49:52 PM9/9/10
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On Sep 9, 4:39 pm, robert joseph wrote:
> A question came up on IRC today about how the no repeat actions
> rule applies when you have a card that provides multiple
> separate actions.  I've already received an answer from Scott,
> but it seemed like I should post here to make sure the
> answer can be accessed by everybody.

So, what you are saying, is that Gregory Winter cannot take the "burn
a vampire in torpor" action if he has already taken the "steal a
blood" action on that turn.

Is that the correct interpretation?


> Section 6.1.6 of the rulebook, last two paragraphs:

> A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card or via the
> same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than
> once each turn, even if he untaps.

> Here's Greg Winter's text, since he's my favorite out of that list:

robert joseph

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Sep 9, 2010, 5:06:27 PM9/9/10
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The Lasombra <thela...@hotmail.com> writes:

> On Sep 9, 4:39 pm, robert joseph wrote:
>> A question came up on IRC today about how the no repeat actions
>> rule applies when you have a card that provides multiple
>> separate actions.  I've already received an answer from Scott,
>> but it seemed like I should post here to make sure the
>> answer can be accessed by everybody.
>
> So, what you are saying, is that Gregory Winter cannot take the "burn
> a vampire in torpor" action if he has already taken the "steal a
> blood" action on that turn.
>
> Is that the correct interpretation?

That's what we thought, but Scott told me that he can take both
actions (assuming you can untap him).

floppyzedolfin

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Sep 9, 2010, 5:16:30 PM9/9/10
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On 9 sep, 23:06, robert joseph <jos...@cse.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

That seems a bit contradictory with
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4d8451bb7fe206c1
(which has been repeated in the rulebook as you quoted).
Maybe quoting the reply from Scott could help solving this ambiguity.

robert joseph

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Sep 9, 2010, 5:19:47 PM9/9/10
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floppyzedolfin <floppyz...@gmail.com> writes:

Yes, it does seem to contradict that post, which we for some reason
didn't find during the discussion. I'm interested in seeing Scott's
response.

LSJ

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Sep 9, 2010, 5:20:03 PM9/9/10
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On Sep 9, 4:39 pm, robert joseph <jos...@cse.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> A question came up on IRC today about how the no repeat actions
> rule applies when you have a card that provides multiple
> separate actions.  I've already received an answer from Scott,
> but it seemed like I should post here to make sure the
> answer can be accessed by everybody.

If text provides two "X as an action", then those aren't cross-
restricting.

"Minions may X1 as an action. Minions may X2 as an action".
A minion could only do X1 once each turn, likewise X2 once each turn,
but could do both X1 and X2 on the same turn.


> Section 6.1.6 of the rulebook, last two paragraphs:
>
> To take the action described by a card in play, announce the action and
> tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as
> indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is
> unsuccessful, there is no effect.
>
> A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card or via the
> same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than
> once each turn, even if he untaps.
>
> Any of the following five cards (and perhaps others) could be used as
> an example of a card in play providing multiple separate actions:
>
> Gregory Winter
> Dauntain Black Magician
> Kaymakli Fragment
> Barbaro Lucchese
> Virstania, The Great Mother

Amam
Lunatic Eruption
Open War
Virgil

And for those minions inclined to burn helpful cards:
Archon
Covenant of Blood
Dogs of War
Joseph Pander
Lazarene Inquisitor
Some powerbases
Sabbat Inquistor
Templar
Zoning Board

LSJ

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Sep 9, 2010, 5:21:48 PM9/9/10
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On Sep 9, 5:19 pm, robert joseph <jos...@cse.ohio-state.edu> wrote:

> floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On 9 sep, 23:06, robert joseph <jos...@cse.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >> The Lasombra <thelasom...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >> > On Sep 9, 4:39 pm, robert joseph wrote:
> >> >> A question came up on IRC today about how the no repeat actions
> >> >> rule applies when you have a card that provides multiple
> >> >> separate actions.  I've already received an answer from Scott,
> >> >> but it seemed like I should post here to make sure the
> >> >> answer can be accessed by everybody.
>
> >> > So, what you are saying, is that Gregory Winter cannot take the "burn
> >> > a vampire in torpor" action if he has already taken the "steal a
> >> > blood" action on that turn.
>
> >> > Is that the correct interpretation?
>
> >> That's what we thought, but Scott told me that he can take both
> >> actions (assuming you can untap him).
>
> >> --
> >> Bob Joseph  jos...@cse.ohio-state.eduhttp://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~joseph
>
> > That seems a bit contradictory with
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4d84...

> > (which has been repeated in the rulebook as you quoted).
> > Maybe quoting the reply from Scott could  help solving this ambiguity.
>
> Yes, it does seem to contradict that post, which we for some reason
> didn't find during the discussion.  I'm interested in seeing Scott's
> response.

Reversal of that answer, yes.

simcof

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Sep 9, 2010, 10:20:03 PM9/9/10
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"If text provides two "X as an action", then those aren't cross-
restricting. "

Are you saying this specifically for allies? Or does this count for
action cards too now? e..g bleed with a govern at dom then do the DOM
action to move blood to uncontrolled region. As far as I am aware that
is currently not legit, but with this new reversal does that make it
legal to do both with the same minion in the same turn?

simcof

LSJ

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Sep 9, 2010, 11:04:23 PM9/9/10
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It is cards in played, as described.

Juggernaut1981

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Sep 10, 2010, 1:33:12 AM9/10/10
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> simcof- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Only for things "in play on the table" not "cards from hand". But I'm
assuming you'd also hit the NRA for cards in play by stating that one
action on card XYZ cannot be attempted by multiple vampires (without
text to the contrary).

James Coupe

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Sep 10, 2010, 2:37:16 AM9/10/10
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Juggernaut1981 <brassc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>But I'm
>assuming you'd also hit the NRA for cards in play by stating that one
>action on card XYZ cannot be attempted by multiple vampires (without
>text to the contrary).

What are you basing this on? The various repeat action rules prevent
one minion from taking multiple actions of particular types (bleed,
vote, card in hand, card in play etc.) in the same turn.

Which rule are you seeing that prevents Dre using a Haven Uncovered and
then Duck using the same Haven Uncovered?

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Meej

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Sep 10, 2010, 9:19:03 AM9/10/10
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I think this is one of those cases where Scott's concise answers are
causing people to extrapolate or misunderstand things he's not
saying. Here's a speed-summary of the NRA rule as I understand it,
which hasn't changed at all, except in the case regarding a card in
play that provides two different actions:

Each minion may only do the following per turn:
- One political action
- One bleed action
- Any number of actions granted by cards-from-hand, but only once per
card name (ie, no Govern to Bleed then Govern Down)
- Any number of actions granted by cards-in-play, but only once per
action per copy of the card in play. (Previously, it had been one
action per card in play, not one of each action. This is the reversal
- just this part - ie, Gregory can now steal a blood, get untapped,
and burn a vampire in torpor, or a !Brujah can rush someone via Dogs
of War, untap, then call the referendum to burn Dogs of War).
- Any number of other table actions provided by the rules, not limited
at all (ie, you can keep untapping and moving equipment, or keep
untapping and trying to diablerize the same vampire, as far as I know)

NRA's only apply to the minion who's taken the action - if the source
of the action allows another minion to take it, xe can.

Assuming I've got that right (I'm only about 95% sure of the last one
- rule-based repeats at the same target), is that clearer?

- D.J.

- D.J.

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