Automatically Passing votes + vote modifiers
ira...@gmail.com
If a vote is automatically passing, what actually happens? I believe
the "polling" step skipped, and the vote automatically passes by 0.
May I play these cards:
a) Bribes
b) Bewitching Oration
c) Guruhi Kholo
d) Voter Captivation
e) Igoli's Loyalty
I believe the answer is yes to all, but E is a little weird because it
requires vamps to vote in favor without having a referendum. And if
they do vote in favor, does the vote pass by more than 0?
Thanks,
Ira
http://white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
6.3.2. The Referendum
If a political action is successful, the referendum is called.
Some cards from older sets use the phrase "during a political action"
to refer to the referendum part of the political action.
The referendum consists of three steps: setting the terms, polling
(casting votes) and resolving the referendum.
1. Choose the terms, if any, of the referendum. Cards that are used
"during a political action" but "before votes are cast" are used at
this time.
2. Polling. All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have (see
below) at this time, in any order. They call out their votes freely,
and there is no obligation to vote. Once a vote has been cast,
however, it cannot be changed. The polling stage is completed only
when all Methuselahs are finished voting (if you need a time limit,
the players can agree to wait 15 seconds after the last vote cast to
close the polling stage).
3. Resolve the referendum. If there are more votes for the
referendum than against, the referendum passes, and the effects of the
successful referendum take place. Otherwise, the referendum fails and
has no effect. Tied referendums fail.
Name: Bribes
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, Sabbat:C, SW:C/PV2, CE:PTo2/PV2, Anarchs:PAB4,
KMW:PAn3/PAl, Third:PB3]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Only usable during a referendum before votes are cast.
Gain 1 pool. Any other Methuselah who votes in favor of and does not
vote against the referendum gains 1 pool when the results of the
referendum are tallied.
Name: Bewitching Oration
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, Sabbat:C, SW:C, CE:C/PTo4/PV4, Anarchs:PAB4,
BH:PTo3, LoB:PG4, Third:PB5]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Presence
Only usable during a referendum.
[pre] This acting vampire gains 2 votes.
[PRE] This acting vampire gains 4 votes.
Name: Guruhi Kholo
[LoB:PG]
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Clan: Guruhi
Only usable during a (referendum). Usable by a tapped vampire. Title.
Put this card on this Guruhi to represent the unique Laibon title of
Guruhi Kholo (worth 2 votes). Not usable if there are any older ready
untitled Guruhi. Whenever this vampire is not a ready Guruhi or there
is an older ready untitled Guruhi, move this card to (one of) the
oldest ready untitled Guruhi (if any).
Name: Igoli's Loyalty
[LoB:C]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Clan: Ishtarri
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable during a referendum, before votes are cast.
Starting with your prey and going clockwise, each Methuselah with any
ready titled vampires may elect to cast all of his or her vampires'
votes in favor for 1 pool. Each time a Methuselah declines, this
Ishtarri burns 1 blood to add 1 pool to that amount. Continue until a
Methuselah accepts or this Ishtarri fails to burn a blood. When the
votes are tallied, each vampire voting against this referendum burns 2
blood.
Name: Voter Captivation
[Jyhad:U2, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, CE:U/PTo2/PV, Anarchs:PAB3, KMW:PAn3,
LoB:PG3, Third:U/PB2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Presence
Only usable after resolving a successful referendum (called by this
acting vampire).
[pre] The acting vampire gains X blood from the blood bank, where X is
the number of votes by which the referendum passed.
[PRE] As above, but move up to 2 of those blood counters to your pool
instead of this vampire.
James Coupe
s.com>, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
>Hello LSJ,
>
>If a vote is automatically passing, what actually happens?
# If a referendum will pass automatically (e.g., Cryptic Rider, Charming
Lobby, Malkavian Rider Clause, Día de los Muertos), then no voting
occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
action" and "during a referendum" effects cannot be used. E.g., Delaying
Tactics cannot be used to cancel the referendum. Any effects that
operate on the number of votes that the referendum passed by have no
effect. [LSJ 19980107]
>I believe
>the "polling" step skipped, and the vote automatically passes by 0.
>
>May I play these cards:
>a) Bribes
No.
>b) Bewitching Oration
No.
>c) Guruhi Kholo
No.
>d) Voter Captivation
Yes, with no effect.
>e) Igoli's Loyalty
No.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
ira...@gmail.com
> "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Hello LSJ,
>
> >If a vote is automatically passing, what actually happens?
>
> # If a referendum will pass automatically (e.g., Cryptic Rider, Charming
> Lobby, Malkavian Rider Clause, Día de los Muertos), then no voting
> occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
> action" and "during a referendum" effects cannot be used. E.g., Delaying
> Tactics cannot be used to cancel the referendum. Any effects that
> operate on the number of votes that the referendum passed by have no
> effect. [LSJ 19980107]
That ruling is from more than 10 years ago, and the example given is
Delaying Tactics, which I believe can only be played during the
polling step. I'm wondering:
a) which action modifiers (and reactions) can be played during the
"choose terms" step of a political action.
b) If an automatically-passing referendum still has a "choose terms"
step.
It seems certain to me that b must be true, and therefore I don't see
any reason why action modifiers that are normally played at that time
couldn't be played.
Hopefully LSJ will answer this question directly. James, normally
your replies convince me (and often with more helpful logical
explanation and references than LSJ has the time to provide), but in
this case, I'd like to hear his reply directly. And apologies in
advance for doubting you, assuming you're right. :)
A couple other example cards would be:
a) Scorn of Adonis
b) Aura of Invincibility
Thanks,
Ira
Name: Scorn of Adonis
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PTo2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Clan: Toreador
Only usable during a referendum.
Any Methuselah casting or controlling a vampire casting at least 1
vote against the referendum burns 1 pool before the results are
tallied.
Name: Aura of Invincibility
[Gehenna:C, Third:PB]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable during a referendum, before any votes are cast.
If this referendum passes, put this card on the acting vampire and put
a counter on this card. This vampire gets an additional vote for each
counter on this card in referendums he or she calls. Add a counter to
this card when a referendum called by this vampire passes. If a
referendum called by this vampire fails, burn this card and send this
vampire to torpor. A vampire can have only one Aura of Invincibility.
James Coupe
>> "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >Hello LSJ,
>>
>> >If a vote is automatically passing, what actually happens?
>>
>> # If a referendum will pass automatically (e.g., Cryptic Rider, Charming
>> Lobby, Malkavian Rider Clause, Día de los Muertos), then no voting
>> occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
>> action" and "during a referendum" effects cannot be used. E.g., Delaying
>> Tactics cannot be used to cancel the referendum. Any effects that
>> operate on the number of votes that the referendum passed by have no
>> effect. [LSJ 19980107]
>
>That ruling is from more than 10 years ago,
And is still valid, and is still on the WW rulings page, and directly
answers your questions.
If you're still unsure, actually look at the rulings page and click on
the date link. Here we find:
As soon as the action resolves (remains unblocked) - the time
that voting would normally occur, then vote instantly passes.
...
[Bribes and Treachery] cannot be played, since there is no opportunity
to play them.
ira...@gmail.com
> In message <35825391-8932-4743-bd1f-b9bc7f2ad...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
> >On Sep 3, 11:56 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> >> "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >Hello LSJ,
>
> >> >If a vote is automatically passing, what actually happens?
>
> >> # If a referendum will pass automatically (e.g., Cryptic Rider, Charming
> >> Lobby, Malkavian Rider Clause, Día de los Muertos), then no voting
> >> occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political
> >> action" and "during a referendum" effects cannot be used. E.g., Delaying
> >> Tactics cannot be used to cancel the referendum. Any effects that
> >> operate on the number of votes that the referendum passed by have no
> >> effect. [LSJ 19980107]
>
> >That ruling is from more than 10 years ago,
>
> And is still valid, and is still on the WW rulings page, and directly
> answers your questions.
>
> If you're still unsure, actually look at the rulings page and click on
> the date link. Here we find:
>
> As soon as the action resolves (remains unblocked) - the time
> that voting would normally occur, then vote instantly passes.
> ...
> [Bribes and Treachery] cannot be played, since there is no opportunity
> to play them.
That is convincing, if I could find it and it made sense. I followed
this link:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings
and I searched for "bribes" and didn't find the text you're talking
about. Maybe I'm missing something obvious? Could you send me the
link where you're looking? I clicked on the "All Rulings" link from
the main WW VTES site.
Also, why does that ruling make sense anyway? If there is a "choose
terms" part of the vote resolution (which there must be), why can't
action modifiers that are normally played during that window still be
played during that window? Maybe the answer is, "because the vote is
automatically passing," but that seems weird to me.
If I could read the same things that you're reading, I'd probably be
convinced of it's accuracy, even if I don't understand the logic
behind it. Simply because James Coupe is telling me it's true, I'd
give it at least 95% chance of being true even without checking any
facts. I'm just confused by the logic behind the ruling, and I think
that's why I'm asking.
Ira
LSJ
Try searching for a word or phrase in the text he quoted (which doesn't include
"Bribes"). Like: "pass automatically" or "automatic referendum"
"Auto" will suffice at the moment, even.
> Also, why does that ruling make sense anyway? If there is a "choose
> terms" part of the vote resolution (which there must be), why can't
> action modifiers that are normally played during that window still be
> played during that window? Maybe the answer is, "because the vote is
> automatically passing," but that seems weird to me.
Because the referendum passes as soon as the terms are set, and setting the
terms is the first thing that happens in a referendum.
ira...@gmail.com
Maybe I misunderstood his quotation. I saw:
>> [Bribes and Treachery] cannot be played, since there is no opportunity
>> to play them.
That seemed like a quote from the rulings page, which I was unable to
find. I was only able to see the example of Delaying Tactics, which
is played during the polling step.
> > Also, why does that ruling make sense anyway? If there is a "choose
> > terms" part of the vote resolution (which there must be), why can't
> > action modifiers that are normally played during that window still be
> > played during that window? Maybe the answer is, "because the vote is
> > automatically passing," but that seems weird to me.
>
> Because the referendum passes as soon as the terms are set, and setting the
> terms is the first thing that happens in a referendum.
I see. I didn't realize the second part of that sentence was true.
The rulebook states:
1. Choose the terms, if any, of the referendum. Cards that are used
"during a political action" but "before votes are cast" are used at
this time.
It seemed like there was a window of time, during which the terms must
be set, and other cards may be played. I assumed that the acting meth
could order the effects however he wants, but I realize now that it's
like the untap step - untapping occurs first, and so does setting the
terms.
I still don't really understand why the "choose terms" step instantly
closes on an auto-passing vote, instead of just skipping the polling
step, but I think that's just something I accept as a ruling / design
choice. I understand that the "choose terms" window closes instantly
if the vote is auto-passing, and terms must be set before anything
else occurs.
For normal referendums (not auto-passing), what cards may be played
during the "choose terms" step? Can I gain votes during that phase,
playing a Bewitching Oration, hoping to cycle into a Bribes?
Thanks,
Ira
librarian
>
> For normal referendums (not auto-passing), what cards may be played
> during the "choose terms" step? Can I gain votes during that phase,
> playing a Bewitching Oration, hoping to cycle into a Bribes?
Why not? You just wouldn't be able to play Bribes on that referendum
due to Bribes card text...
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
www.superfuncards.com *NEW Website!*
auct...@superfuncards.com
ira...@gmail.com
> ira...@gmail.com wrote:
> > For normal referendums (not auto-passing), what cards may be played
> > during the "choose terms" step? Can I gain votes during that phase,
> > playing a Bewitching Oration, hoping to cycle into a Bribes?
>
> Why not? You just wouldn't be able to play Bribes on that referendum
> due to Bribes card text...
My intention would be to play Bewitching Oration, gain the votes (but
not vote yet!), then play the Bribes on the same referendum, before
any votes are cast during the "choose terms" window. Bribes is
clearly played in the "choose terms" window (or maybe it's played
during the polling window, but before votes are cast?).
"Gain X votes" doesn't mean you must cast those votes immediately.
As an analogy, you can't declare a bleed, then play a conditioning in
the hopes of cycling into a seduction, since the "as this action is
declared" window doesn't include cards like conditioning. But, you
can play a card like Wake with Evening's Freshness in the "as the
action is declared" window. In writing this paragraph, I realize I
also don't have a deep understanding of what defines whether or not a
card can be played in the "as the action is declared" window. I think
the answer is: specific card text, plus wake-type reactions that are
special for some reason.
Ira
James Coupe
.com>, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Sep 4, 5:18 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Try searching for a word or phrase in the text he quoted (which
>>doesn't include
>> "Bribes"). Like: "pass automatically" or "automatic referendum"
>>
>> "Auto" will suffice at the moment, even.
>
>Maybe I misunderstood his quotation. I saw:
>>> [Bribes and Treachery] cannot be played, since there is no opportunity
>>> to play them.
>
>That seemed like a quote from the rulings page, which I was unable to
>find. I was only able to see the example of Delaying Tactics, which
>is played during the polling step.
Clearly it is, if you failed to read the words that came before it, or
follow what they say.
> >> If you're still unsure, actually look at the rulings page and click on
> >> the date link. Here we find:
So, we go and find the ruling I've cited from the White Wolf ruling
page. Then we *click on the date link*: [LSJ 19980107]
That takes you to the original post, of which the ruling is a summary
(and often a somewhat more generic statement). Once we've clicked on
the date link, here we find:... a quote from the result of clicking!
And on the Interwebnets, that might take you to a whole different page.
At this point, you may go "Ooh!" and "Aah!" at the special magics of
computers.
If finding a clearly quoted ruling on the White Wolf rulings page and
clicking on the date link to find the original post is too hard, I can't
even begin to imagine what on earth you're doing there.
Salem
In writing this paragraph, I realize I
> also don't have a deep understanding of what defines whether or not a
> card can be played in the "as the action is declared" window. I think
> the answer is: specific card text, plus wake-type reactions that are
> special for some reason.
the wake types are special because they allow you to play Rewind Time on
the 'as action is declared' window cards :)
(and other 'cancel a card as it is played' cards)
at least that's all i can remember from that thread back whenever it was.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
LSJ
> On Sep 4, 10:57 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>> ira...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> For normal referendums (not auto-passing), what cards may be played
>>> during the "choose terms" step? Can I gain votes during that phase,
>>> playing a Bewitching Oration, hoping to cycle into a Bribes?
>> Why not? You just wouldn't be able to play Bribes on that referendum
>> due to Bribes card text...
>
> My intention would be to play Bewitching Oration, gain the votes (but
> not vote yet!), then play the Bribes on the same referendum, before
> any votes are cast during the "choose terms" window.
Yes. [LSJ 12-DEC-06]
> Bribes is
> clearly played in the "choose terms" window (or maybe it's played
> during the polling window, but before votes are cast?).
In the post you made just before this one, you quoted the rule for this:
> 1. Choose the terms, if any, of the referendum. Cards that are used
> "during a political action" but "before votes are cast" are used at
> this time.
Bribes is such a card.
>
> "Gain X votes" doesn't mean you must cast those votes immediately.
>
> As an analogy, you can't declare a bleed, then play a conditioning in
> the hopes of cycling into a seduction, since the "as this action is
> declared" window doesn't include cards like conditioning. But, you
> can play a card like Wake with Evening's Freshness in the "as the
> action is declared" window. In writing this paragraph, I realize I
> also don't have a deep understanding of what defines whether or not a
> card can be played in the "as the action is declared" window. I think
> the answer is: specific card text, plus wake-type reactions that are
> special for some reason.
Correct.
Atom Weaver
> So, we go and find the ruling I've cited from the White Wolf ruling
> page. Then we *click on the date link*: [LSJ 19980107]
>
> That takes you to the original post, of which the ruling is a summary
> (and often a somewhat more generic statement). Once we've clicked on
> the date link, here we find:... a quote from the result of clicking!
> And on the Interwebnets, that might take you to a whole different page.
>
> At this point, you may go "Ooh!" and "Aah!" at the special magics of
> computers.
>
> If finding a clearly quoted ruling on the White Wolf rulings page and
> clicking on the date link to find the original post is too hard, I can't
> even begin to imagine what on earth you're doing there.
>
>
And before anyone asks... it was _me_. _I'm_ the guy who peed in
James' Cheerios this morning. My flight just got back only an hour
ago... Gotta get some sleep, now.
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Darby Keeney
> > As an analogy, you can't declare a bleed, then play a conditioning in
> > the hopes of cycling into a seduction, since the "as this action is
> > declared" window doesn't include cards like conditioning. But, you
> > can play a card like Wake with Evening's Freshness in the "as the
> > action is declared" window. In writing this paragraph, I realize I
> > also don't have a deep understanding of what defines whether or not a
> > card can be played in the "as the action is declared" window. I think
> > the answer is: specific card text, plus wake-type reactions that are
> > special for some reason.
>
> Correct.
I fear I don't understand why you could not play ANY action modifier
in the "as declared" window as long as you have not yielded the
impulse.
From the online rulebook, section 6.2, Summary of the Course of an
Action
"Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any
time in this process as appropriate, subject to the restrictions on
adding stealth and intercept listed below and the restrictions against
the same minion playing the same action modifier or reaction card more
than once..."
Further, the steps are listed (and summarized for brevity instead of
fully quoted)
1) The action is declared, and the card used for the action is played,
if any. Tap the minion.
2) The target Methuselah may try to block, or the predator and prey
may try to block if the action is undirected.
3) If the block(s) are unsuccessful, then the cost of the action is
paid and it resolves.
"Action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time during
an action (unless otherwise noted on card text), with the acting
Methuselah getting the opportunity to play first. "
So....when I simply this, I get 3 basic timing elements in an action.
Declare. Call for and evaluate block attempts. Resolve the action or
conduct combat from a block. And that rule statement is pretty clear
that if the acting minion still has the impulse, he should be able to
play modifiers in ANY window (including declaration.)
Assuming this is a correct interpretation of the online rulebook
(which seems quite explicit to me, in a pair of places), it would seem
to me that one could play Conditioning in the "as declared window" to
search for another card (that by text is playable only in that
declaration window by text, like Seduction)...or one could play
Conditioning in the "call for blocks window" to cycle for a stealth
card (that is restricted by rule to being played in the block
window)....or one could play Conditioning in "resolve the action
window" for which the succesful action can be modified before
resolution.
Is there a reference/ruling for the "no Conditioning as declared
window" issue?
I do understand that you can't use any of these tricks to avoid card
cancellation effects (Direct Intervention, Rewind Time, Determine,
etc).....which does create some problematic timing issues. For
clarity, if an acting Meth is THAT concerned about foreknowledge of
what he might play "as declared" - he should probably ask for
cancellations with every card played :(
Thanks in advance for any response.
LSJ
> Is there a reference/ruling for the "no Conditioning as declared
> window" issue?
Sure. That ruling has been made many times.
Nothing "as declared" except by explicit text.
ira...@gmail.com
Thanks for the nice and funny reply, Dave. I was thinking for a
moment that I was apparently a complete idiot, since I have high
respect for James.
James, upon further investigation, I discovered why I missed your
reference. If you go here:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings
(which can be reached from the "All Rulings" link on the left side of
the main VTES page)
You'll find the actual ruling, but not the original post. You have to
click on the "[LSJ 19980107]" link, which, on my browser, is not
obviously a link. If you mouse-over it, it becomes obvious, but I
didn't realize it was a link because it was black text without an
underline. On the internet, from my experience, black text without an
underline is rarely a link.
In the future, I'll know how to navigate that, but it wasn't obvious.
You might also consider including direct URLs to your references,
because that's really easy for the reader.
Ira