House Rules List (net.personality-generated)

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L. Scott Johnson

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Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
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House Rules List (net.personality-generated)
============================================

* This list is posted on rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad on the first and
sixteenth of every month.

* This is a compilation of opinions from net.users. All net.users are
invited to add to this list (through e-mail to me). The more, the merrier.

* Additions and comments should be sent to: sjoh...@math.sc.edu
Please include the text "house rule" in the subject line.

* NOTE: Some rules are mix-n-match, some are mutually exclusive. Take what
you want and ignore the rest.

* Opposition to a particular house rule is marked with -INI- (instead of
[INI], which indicates support).

* If you want more information on a rule, e-mail the first person listed on
the support line - please don't clutter the newsgroup with it. Thanks.
(Chances are high that any odd rule has been hashed over too much already.)

Scope of Official Rulings, Errata, Clarifications, and Statements
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"A blood by any other name would taste as sweet." :-)

o. Official Rules for V:tES apply equally to Jyhad. Jyhad and V:tES are the
same game, with different names and different card backs.
[LSJ]

Fixing what's Broken
--------------------
Bringing unbalancing cards into line, making the game playable.

o. There is no per-card limit to either the library nor the crypt.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JRM] [JC]
-WotC- ("For the heck of it" at a Sanctioned Tourney)

o. Action cards and Action Modifiers can always be played by the acting Minion,
even if it is not the controlling Methuselah's turn.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [V:tES] [JC]
-JRM-

o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, regardless of
whose turn it is.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [V:tES] [JC]
-JRM-

o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,
Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

Bonding - only one Bonding, Condition, or Threats Card may be used
during a single action.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JC] [JRM]

only modifies the base bleed of the vampire playing it. (And will
thus be cancelled if Masked)
[ASHK]
-JHJ-

Charming Lobby - use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If
successful, call a vote by playing a Political Action card or by naming
a vote allowed by a card in play. If the vote succeeds, the next vote
will pass as well.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [JC] [JRM]

use as an action to call a vote at +1 stealth. If successful, a vote is
called to determine whether the next vote will pass. A successful vote
means the next vote called will pass automatically.
[CSA] [SHWT] [ASHK]

Conditioning - see Bonding.

Dragon Breath Rounds - may not be used in a Zip Gun
[CSA]

Fame - is a unique Master, contested by the vampire exactly as a title
would be contested.
[JF]

Malkavian Madness Network - makes it the turn of the Methuselah controlling
the acting Malkavian. After the action, the original Methuselah can
continue her turn.
[JC] [JF] [CSA]
-JRM-

gives the acting Malkavian's Methuselah the remainder of the Minion Phase,
in which any other Methuselah may play Reaction Cards.
[HAR]

Threats - see Bonding.

Zip Gun - may not use Dragon Breath Rounds
[CSA]


Handling Mixed Card Backs (Jyhad - V:tES)
-------------------------------------------
Rules to reduce the "marked card" effect. Only needed when mixing the types.

o. Methuselahs deal/draw from the bottom of their crypts and libraries.
[MD] [LSJ] [SHWT]

o. The uncontrolled regions are hidden from other Methuselahs.
[MD]
-JC-


Clarifications and Design Considerations
----------------------------------------
Re_vamp_ing rules that worked satisfactorily anyhow (includes wallpaper).

o. Master Out-of-Turn cards may be played whenever appropriate in lieu
of a Master Phase Action in your next Master Phase.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [ASHK]
-SHWT- -CSA- -JRM-

as above, but not during your own Master phase (Sudden Reversal).
[ASHK]
-SHWT-

# o. Actions directly affecting another Methuselah are called directed actions.
# Actions not directly affecting another Methuselah are called non-directed.
# Directed actions are marked with (D) symbols. The (D) symbol is only a
# reminder that the action is directed, and does not alter the legal
# targets of the action. All directed actions fully describe who may be
# targetted by the action. Bleeds, as stated in the rulebook, can only be
# directed at your Prey unless card text says otherwise.
# NOTE: This was the original concept when the cards were printed.
# [CSA] [LSJ] [JHJ] [ASHK] [V:tES] [JC] [SHWT]
# -JRM-

o. Definition of "same action". For the purposes of cards that prohibit
the "same action", if an action defined in the rulebook (bleed, equip,
recruit ally, recruit retainer, political action, hunt, encounter
vampire in torpor, leave torpor) is accomplished more than once, it is
considered the same action even if the target changes or a different
action card is used. Likewise, any such action accomplished without a
card is considered the same as the same action accomplished with an
action card.
[CSA] [SHWT] [LSJ]

o. A minion may not attempt the same action more than once per turn,
regardless of subsequent untapping.
[LX]

o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or
used during any particular action, even if the acting minion changes.
This does not apply to minions that are not the acting minion when they
play the card.
[CSA] [ASHK]

o. No more than one of any particular action modifier may be played or
used during any particular action, period.
[ASHK]

o. No more than one of any particular reaction card may be played or
used by the same player during any particular action.
[ASHK]

o. Combat cannot occur with a vampire in torpor. Diablerie is possible
if the opposing minion is a ready vampire, otherwise nothing happens.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

o. Only one Additional Strike card may be played by a minion per round.
(Additional Strike card is any card that bestows additional strike(s).)
[LSJ] [ASHK] [JHJ]

# o. Strike: Combat Ends resolves during normal strike resolution (still
# cancelling first strikes). If the opposing strike is also: End Combat,
# then both have their usual effect.
# (This simply negates the exception to the normal choose-strike /
# resolve-strike order of combat bestowed upon S:CE by the DT).
# [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM] [V:tES]

# o. Strike: Steal Bood: blood stolen above a vampire's capacity is discarded
# before wounds are healed.
# [ASHK] [V:tES]

Blood stolen above a vampire's capacity (counted before healing wounds)
is not stolen at all. The excess amount is ignored.
[LSJ] [ASHK]

Stolen blood cannot be used to heal wounds in the same combat round.
[ASHK]

o. Only Methuselahs other than the acting Methuselah may use additional
political action cards for votes.
NOTE: This fits the text in the rulebook as well as any other rule does.
[CSA]
-LSJ- -SHWT-

o. Only one Political Action card may be used to gain a vote by each
Methuselah during a vote. (Includes any PA played to call the vote.)
NOTE: This fits the text in the rulebook as well as any other rule does.
[ASHK] [LSJ]

o. Political Action cards tossed in for votes (except the action card
which called the vote) are not replaced until the end of voting.
All other cards played during a vote are replaced immediately
as normal. This house rule is recommended only if the restrictions
on playing multiple reaction cards above are also observed.
[ASHK]

o. Blood transferred onto an uncontrolled vampire from the blood bank during
the influence phase comes in the form of 'influence counters' rather than
blood. An influence counter counts as blood when determining control of a
vampire, but cannot be transferred off of the vampire. (This ends the
never-empty-cup effect of Arcane Library, Art Museum, and Eco Terrorists).
[ASHK]

Army of Rats - is cumulative. This house rule is recommended only
if the increased costs of Earth Meld, Form of Mist and Freak
Drive are in force.
[ASHK]

Blood Bond - if it is not a directed action, then it has no target. It's
effect will not cease even if the chosen vampire is burned.
[LSJ] [SHWT]

# is a directed action.
# [CSA] [JHJ] [RTR]

# Blood Rage - requires (th) not (fo).
# [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM] [RTR]

Brujah Frenzy - causes a block.
[LSJ]

does not tap the attacked minion.
[JHJ]

Chainsaw - is a melee weapon.
[CSA] [LX] [JC] [JF] [ASHK] [JRM]

does 3 damage each strike. Only usable once per round.
[JHJ] [ASHK]

can be used any number of times per round (and is not a melee weapon).
[ASHK]

Claws of the Dead - superior reads "As above, with a Manuever."
[ASHK] [JHJ] [LSJ]

Concealed Weapon - does not require (ob).
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF] [ASHK] [JRM]

Deflection - replace the superior version with "as above, plus the reacting
vampire can pay 1 blood and not be tapped by Deflection"
[CSA] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Earth Meld - costs 1 blood from the acting vampire.
[CSA] [ASHK] [JRM]

Elder Kindred Network - has no effect if the vote is successful.
[TOM] [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

Enchant Kindred - is at +1 stealth when attempting the superior version.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Faceless Night - taps any minion who attempts to block when the action
becomes blocked or when the action resolves, as appropriate.
(This allows the blocker to continue to play intercept cards.)
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK]

only affects Minions who attempt to block *after* it is played.
[JHJ]

Fame - affects the controller of the card that did the damage that caused
the vampire to enter torpor. If the vampire is sent to torpor by a
special card, such as Day Operation, it affects the controller of that
card. With this rule, Fame is not a unique master.
[CSA] [JC]
-LSJ-

Form of Mist - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
[CSA] [ASHK] [JRM]

Superior only continues an action that was blocked.
[JHJ] [LSJ] [ASHK]

Freak Drive - costs 2 blood from the acting vampire.
[CSA] [ASHK]

# Frenzy - may be played even if you have no Minions involved in the Combat.
# [LSJ] [CSA] [JC] [JRM] [RTR]

Ghoul Retainer - cannot use a weapon used by the employing Minion nor another
Retainer of the Minion.
[LSJ]

Hidden Lurker - is an action modifier, not an action. Text as follows:
Usable only by an untapped Vampire other than the Acting Minion after the
Acting Minion is blocked and combat is over. Tap this Vampire. This
Vampire now enters combat with the Blocking Minion. The first round of
combat, the Blocking Minion cannot use any strikes.
Superior: As above, but with an optional Press.
[LSJ] [JC] [CSA] [ASHK] [JHJ]

Lextalionis - may be called when a Methuselah has gained a victory point
since the start (untap) of your last turn.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Majesty - costs 1 blood from the vampire playing it.
[CSA] [ASHK] [JRM]

Major Boon - If the rescued Methselah bleeds you, you can't
force him to take his own bleed but you can make his bleed
unsuccessful (and burn the boon).
[ASHK]

Malkavian Dementia - returns the affected Malkavian untapped.
[JF] [JHJ] [LSJ] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Returns the affected Malkavian at the moment the untap phase begins.
[LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK]

Misdirection - costs 2*X to tap X minions.
[CSA] [ASHK]

Obedience - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
[CSA] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Parity Shift - may only redistribute pool up to the difference between the
selected Methuselah's pool and your own pool.
[LSJ] [CSA] [ASHK] [JHJ]
-JC- -JRM- -SHWT-

Rampage - is not directed (D) when used to burn a location that you control.
[JF] [ASHK] [CSA] [JRM] [LSJ] [JHJ]

Ritual of the Bitter Rose - can only be used when a vampire is diablerized
in combat - not simpy burned.
[ASHK] [LSJ] [JHJ]

Rotschreck - hoses the vampire about to *receive* aggravated damage.
[ASHK] [JHJ] [CSA] [JRM] [RTR (months with only 30 days)]
-JF- -SHWT- -RTR (months that end with Y)-

Sport Bike - is not optional.
[LSJ] [CSA] [SHWT] [ASHK]
-JRM-

Talbot's Chainsaw - does not force it's wielder to attack with it during
the controller's minion phase; it is merely an option.
[JC] [JRM]
-CSA- -SHWT-

Taste of Vitae - only one of these may be played per minion per round.
[LSJ] [CSA] [LX] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [JF] [ASHK] [JRM]

only counts blood lost to damage.
[CSA] [LSJ] [LX] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM] [JHJ]

is only usable at close range.
[CSA] [SHWT] [JF] [JRM]

The 2nd Tradition - may be used by an untapped Prince/Justicar for +2
intercept.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

may be used by a tapped Prince/Justicar for the untap effect even if the
intercept is not (yet) required.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

The 5th Tradition - may not be used to refill the acting vampire
[CSA] [JRM] [LSJ] [JHJ]

refills only up to 4 (or 5, if your group prefers) blood
[ASHK]

The Elysium - may not be used to end a combat that you aren't involved in.
[LSJ] [JHJ]

Wake with Evening's Freshness - costs 1 blood from the reacting vampire.
[CSA] [ASHK]

requires Thaumaturgy.
[JF]
-LSJ- -CSA- -JC- -SHWT- -ASHK-

Wolf Claws - superior reads "As above, with an optional Press."
[ASHK] [JHJ] [LSJ]


Game World Considerations
--------------------------
Changes to make the card game feel like, or reflect the mechanics of, the
"real" world (where vampires exist, of course).

o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]

o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by
Kindred ONLY.
[LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]

#Brujah Frenzy - may be played only on a Ready Brujah. Can only send the
# Acting Brujah into combat with a Ready Minion.
# [LSJ] [CSA] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JHJ] [RTR]
# -JRM-

#Camarilla Exemplary - does not require an Ally to pay life to attempt to
# block.
# [HAR] [JHJ] [RTR]
# -JRM-

Chainsaw - begins each combat "off". Does 3 damage each strike if it
began the round of combat "on". The minion holding it may use a Strike:
start chainsaw to turn the chainsaw "on". Strike: start chainsaw is not
cancelled by Strike: dodge (or other non-attack strike).
[LSJ]

Chantry - may be applied during Untap, not Master phase.
[LSJ] [ASHK] [JHJ]
-JRM-

Day Operation - does not affect the ability of Allies (Kine) to block.
[SHWT] [JHJ]
-JRM-

Enchant Kindred - can only influence vampires in your own uncontrolled region.
[LSJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JHJ]

Govern the Unaligned - can only influence vampires in your own uncontrolled
region.
[LSJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JHJ]

Haven Uncovered - does not prevent its victim from being attacked in torpor.
[LSJ] [SHWT] [JHJ]
-JRM-

Rotshreck - may only take into account aggravated damage that actually occurs.
If the cause of the damage goes unperformed (due to Combat Ends or
steal/destroy equipment with first strike, e.g.), Rotshreck may not be
used. This does not apply if the damage is merely foiled (by dodge,
fortitude, Merrill Molitor, Blood Rage/Fury, e.g.)
[LSJ] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT]

is played only during damage resolution. May take into account damage
occurring by means other than strikes, such as Weather Control.
[CSA]

may be played any time the possibility of taking aggravated damage exists.
[LX]

Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
[CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JHJ]


----------
[ASHK]- Alan S. H. Kwan (kw...@cs.cornell.edu)
[CSA] - Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
[HAR] - Harpua (rho...@itsmail1.hamilton.edu)
[JC] - Joseph Cochran (js...@vt.edu)
[JF] - Jon Ferro (fe...@chem.cmu.edu)
[JHJ] - J. Hunter Johnson (jhun...@io.com)
[JRM] - James R. McClure Jr. (jmcc...@e-mail.kdp-baptist.louisville.edu)
[LSJ] - L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu)
[LX] - Larrx (la...@acs.bu.edu)
[MD] - Marion Delgado (FS...@aurora.alaska.edu)
[SHWT]- Shane H. W. Travis (tra...@duke.usask.ca)

[V:tES] - Vampire: the Eternal Struggle rules.

Contributor to the list without consent:
[TOM] - Thomas R Wylie, WotC Net.Rep (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu)
[RTR] - Rules/Design Team Ruling, Errata, Clarification, or Statement.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
to
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:

>o. Action cards and Action Modifiers can always be played by the acting Minion,
> even if it is not the controlling Methuselah's turn.
> [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [V:tES] [JC]
> -JRM-

>o. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah
> other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, regardless of
> whose turn it is.
> [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [V:tES] [JC]
> -JRM-

Oops. Sorry about the citation error. The preliminary copy of V:tES supported
these two (obvious?) rules. They have been "fixed" in the latest copy
of the V:tES rules however.

Apologies for the mistake (the one on my part :-).

Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>o. There is no per-card limit to either the library nor the crypt.
> [LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JRM] [JC]
> -WotC- ("For the heck of it" at a Sanctioned Tourney)

If you're referring to the GenCon tournament, a 4-per-card limit was used
"for the heck of it", and the tournament was not actually sanctioned.

>o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,
> Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

This is an official rule.

>Zip Gun - may not use Dragon Breath Rounds
> [CSA]

Redundant listing.

>o. Only one Additional Strike card may be played by a minion per round.
> (Additional Strike card is any card that bestows additional strike(s).)
> [LSJ] [ASHK] [JHJ]

This is the rule in VTES.

>o. Only Methuselahs other than the acting Methuselah may use additional
> political action cards for votes.
> NOTE: This fits the text in the rulebook as well as any other rule does.

>o. Only one Political Action card may be used to gain a vote by each
> Methuselah during a vote. (Includes any PA played to call the vote.)
> NOTE: This fits the text in the rulebook as well as any other rule does.

The Jyhad rulebook, maybe...

>Elder Kindred Network - has no effect if the vote is successful.
> [TOM] [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [JC] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

This is the official ruling.

>Malkavian Dementia - returns the affected Malkavian untapped.
> [JF] [JHJ] [LSJ] [ASHK]
> -JRM-
> Returns the affected Malkavian at the moment the untap phase begins.
> [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK]

Technical point: "the moment the untap phase begins" occurs before
anything untaps. What this house rule seems to be getting at is that
the Malkavian is returned after everything untaps, but before you start
taking untap actions.

>Rotschreck - hoses the vampire about to *receive* aggravated damage.
> [ASHK] [JHJ] [CSA] [JRM] [RTR (months with only 30 days)]
> -JF- -SHWT- -RTR (months that end with Y)-

While the official ruling on this did bounce around, it settled down
to "dealing the damage" quite some time ago.

>Game World Considerations
>--------------------------
>Changes to make the card game feel like, or reflect the mechanics of, the
>"real" world (where vampires exist, of course).
>
>o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.
> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]

Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.

>o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by
> Kindred ONLY.
> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]

Again, this seems nonsensical. If a vampire is lying in its Haven, why
is it any harder for a gang member to come in and pick up an assault
rifle, than for a vampire to do the same?

>Enchant Kindred - can only influence vampires in your own uncontrolled region.
> [LSJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JHJ]
>
>Govern the Unaligned - can only influence vampires in your own uncontrolled
> region.
> [LSJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JHJ]

While I can see these being house rules, why are they "reality checks"?
Why *couldn't* one vampire convince another to help another Methuselah,
if so instructed?

>Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
> [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JHJ]

Again, why is this a "reality check"? Zip Guns fire bullets.

>[V:tES] - Vampire: the Eternal Struggle rules.
>
>Contributor to the list without consent:
>[TOM] - Thomas R Wylie, WotC Net.Rep (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu)
>[RTR] - Rules/Design Team Ruling, Errata, Clarification, or Statement.

The V:tES rules consented to be included? How kind of them ;)


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


J. Hunter Johnson

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
In article <44ssp2$i...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>o. There is no per-card limit to either the library nor the crypt.
>> [LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JRM] [JC]
>> -WotC- ("For the heck of it" at a Sanctioned Tourney)
>
>If you're referring to the GenCon tournament, a 4-per-card limit was used
>"for the heck of it", and the tournament was not actually sanctioned.

The tournament was listed in the GenCon program as Sanctioned, and it
was run by WotC staff. Now, I know WotC has had problems with cons
misrepresenting the truth (DragonCon and the exclusivity of the Whelan
card, in particular), but it seems less likely that the con would have
chunked Sanctioned onto the game description just because.

Hunter
--
J. Hunter Johnson
jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online)
"Never blame the audience. If you blame the audience, not only have you failed,
you have failed to learn from your mistakes." -- Carlo Mazzone-Clemente

CurtAdams

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
Tom Wylie writes:

(lots of other things - I'm discussing my own stuff)

>>Zip Gun - may not use Dragon Breath Rounds
>> [CSA]

>Redundant listing.

Not entirely. The list is broken into things that *have* to be fixed (in
the opinion of the writers, of course, things that would improve the game
to be fixed, and things that would improve the simulation to fix. I
thought it weird that strage little guns could use heavy-duty ammunition,
but a real game problem that any shmuck could pull out 2 aggro at range
for only 1 blood.

These days I'm seeing DBR as the problem rather than Zip Guns.

>>Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use
ammunition).
>> [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JHJ]

>Again, why is this a "reality check"? Zip Guns fire bullets.

Yeah, but not big bullets, right?

(Actually, what IS a Zip Gun? I had assumed it was a really small gun.)

Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

Alan Eisinger

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
In article <44ssp2$i...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>>o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.
>> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]
>
>Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
>some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
>It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.

I think the point being made here is that a Mesuthelah will not jeapordize the
Masquarade by ordering a kine ally (who, in most cases, is not aware of the
entire truth about his employer) to do something that revealing regarding
vampires.
D


>>o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by
>> Kindred ONLY.
>> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]
>

>Again, this seems nonsensical. If a vampire is lying in its Haven, why
>is it any harder for a gang member to come in and pick up an assault
>rifle, than for a vampire to do the same?
>

See argument above.

>>Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use ammunition).
>> [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JHJ]
>

>Again, why is this a "reality check"? Zip Guns fire bullets.

There are two conflicting meanings for the word "Zip gun." One of them
denotes a homemade pistol, firing standard ammunition. The other refers to
a spring driven pellet gun, classicly manufactured in prison. The question is
which definition was meant by the card.


>
>>[V:tES] - Vampire: the Eternal Struggle rules.
>

Do you mean rules the noun, or rules the verb? :-)

gnfnrf

Alan Kwan

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Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
In article <44t51s$8...@tribune.usask.ca> tra...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Travis) writes:

>Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>
>: L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>
>: >o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.

>: > [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]
>:
>: Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop

>: some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
>: It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.
>:
>: >o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by

>: > Kindred ONLY.
>: > [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [JRM]
>:
>: Again, this seems nonsensical. If a vampire is lying in its Haven, why

>: is it any harder for a gang member to come in and pick up an assault
>: rifle, than for a vampire to do the same?
>
>(In answer to both points above) Allies cannot encounter a vampire in
>torpor, even to allow it to rescue itself. Why not? What is it exactly
>that rescuing from torpor represents? Obviously, the rescuer does not
>_have_ to give of itself, or there would not be a provision for the
>torpored vampire paying both blood. Also, if a torpored vampire takes
>the action 'Rescue Self from Torpor', it _cannot_ be blocked by any
>allies.
>
>An ally _can_, however, stop a vampire who is taking a Rapid Healing
>action, even though this performs the exact same function as 'Rescue Self
>from Torpor'. Similarly, they can block a Movement of the Slow Body.
>In neither case, however, can they actually commit the diablerie allowed
>by the card, so why can they block the action at all?
>
>Basically, I parrot your wording back at you: this seems nonsensical.
>The 'Reality Check' is this: either Kine _can_ find/stumble across a
>vampire in torpor (in which case they should be allowed to resue it or
>stop it from rescuing itself) or they _cannot_ encounter a vampire in
>torpor (in which case they also cannot block actions taken by them or take
>equipment from them).

Hi Shane. I don't know much about the World of Darkness either, but
I guess `encountering' a vampire in torpor (for rescue/diablarie)
and taking equipment are two very different things.
Rescue/disblarie is something only a vampire can/knows-how-to do.
So even if the Kine can physically run into a vampire in the
torpor state, he can do nothing about it.

For example, Shane, if you run into a vampire lying dead there, you
surely can take the gun that lies beside him (if you're not too scared),
but you can't commit diablerie (i.e. drink his blood), can you?
You don't know how to "rescue" him, either (feeding him tomato
juice? :-) Those are things only a vampire can do.

Concerning blocking Torpor card-actions, I think that simply has not
been seriously taken into consideration when the rules/cards were
being conceived.

--
"Live Life with Heart."

Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:

>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:

>>o. There is no per-card limit to either the library nor the crypt.
>> [LSJ] [JHJ] [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JRM] [JC]
>> -WotC- ("For the heck of it" at a Sanctioned Tourney)

>If you're referring to the GenCon tournament, a 4-per-card limit was used


>"for the heck of it", and the tournament was not actually sanctioned.

I heard a rumor (from you) that tourney rules were to have been posted
some time ago. What is the status on that?

---

More to the point:

Will officially sanctioned tournaments have card limits?

That is, do the tournament rules for either Jyhad or V:tES specify
no card limits?

If sanctioned tournaments use card limits, will they have to make this
deviant practice known to the participants *before* the tournament, or
are rules changes at the last minute (and after) acceptable at official
tourneys?

("15 minutes to rebuild a deck I've spent the last month fine-tuning? Thanks")

---

Also, how can the lowly player verify that a tourney claiming to be sanctioned
is really sanctioned and not simply GenConning?

Alec Habig

unread,
Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:

>Tom Wylie writes:
>>>Zip Gun - is a Weapon, but not a Weapon: Gun. (It may not use
>ammunition).
>>> [CSA] [ASHK] [SHWT] [JHJ]
>
>>Again, why is this a "reality check"? Zip Guns fire bullets.
>
>Yeah, but not big bullets, right?
>
>(Actually, what IS a Zip Gun? I had assumed it was a really small gun.)

A homemade gun. Say, with a bit of lead pipe for a barrel, and rubber bands
and a nail for a hammer/firing pin. A gun with a high potential for going off
in your own face.

You could certainly use fancy ammo in a zip gun. However, it's not going to do
you much good :

o "armor piercing ammo" - ammo with a hardened shell or stiff core, so that
the bullet doesn't collapse as much when it hits something hard. A zip gun
couldn't generate the muzzle velocity to make this worthwhile.

o hollow point "musrooming" bullets (manstopper rounds? in Jyhad). These
might have limited effectiveness, but it still takes some muzzle velocity to
get the energy needed for the bullet to splat satisfactorily.

o "glaser" rounds - sort of shotgun pellets held together in a bullet shape by
some gel or soft plastic. They impact similarly to hollow points, as
explained above, but their primary purpose is for being shot in an area
where ricochet's might be dangerous. They splat instead of ricochet.

o "Dragonsbreath" rounds don't exist in the real world. The closest thing
would be incendiary ammo, and those only go off if they've hit something
solid, and don't make that big of a boom. More of a spark - designed for
exploding gas tanks or some such. If something like on the Jyhad card
existed in the real world, however, I sure as hell wouldn't load it into a
gun that was likely to explode in my hand! :)

Something to consider - real world zip guns fall apart after a shot or two,
and reloading them (if possible at all) is time consuming. The Jyhad card
should be a one-shot weapon.

Alec
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.

Frederick Scott

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Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:

>I heard a rumor (from you) that tourney rules were to have been posted
>some time ago. What is the status on that?

Is there some misunderstanding here? The sanctioned tourney rules for Jyhad
were published in the Duelist Companion several months ago. Or did you mean
_new_ tourney rules?

>More to the point:
>
>Will officially sanctioned tournaments have card limits?

The publish rules have no provisions for card limits.

>If sanctioned tournaments use card limits, will they have to make this
>deviant practice known to the participants *before* the tournament, or
>are rules changes at the last minute (and after) acceptable at official
>tourneys?

This is not just a Jyhad issue. Presumedly the policy is the exact same as
for Magic's. If I understand Tom and Sparky (the r.g.t-c.magic.misc Netrep)
right, they're denying that WotC intended for the Gencon tournament to be
a "DC Sanctioned" tournament in the first place and saying the Con booklet
was printed in error. Whatever. I personally hope they'll be somewhat more
diligent about doublechecking their prereg and on-site booklet tournament
descriptions in the future. And be more sensitive to the problems caused for
players when tournament formats change (or 'seem to' change, I don't care what
the cause was) at the last minute.

Fred

up and crumbling

unread,
Oct 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/5/95
to
In article <44uqu4$c...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Alec Habig <aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote:

>A homemade gun. Say, with a bit of lead pipe for a barrel, and rubber bands
>and a nail for a hammer/firing pin. A gun with a high potential for going off
>in your own face.
>
>You could certainly use fancy ammo in a zip gun. However, it's not going to do
>you much good :

> o "Dragonsbreath" rounds don't exist in the real world. The closest thing


> would be incendiary ammo, and those only go off if they've hit something
> solid, and don't make that big of a boom. More of a spark - designed for
> exploding gas tanks or some such. If something like on the Jyhad card
> existed in the real world, however, I sure as hell wouldn't load it into a
> gun that was likely to explode in my hand! :)

I beg to differ -- Dragonsbreath rounds are phosphorus shells for shotguns.
Still not going to be very effective in a zip gun, and they *do* strip
the hell out of the barrel (cf. 'burn gun after use'). You're straight-on
correct that they're not a smart thing to put into a cobbled-together
weapon. A reality check would be either (a) unusable in a zip gun or (b)
the zip gun's 'blowing up' under DBR inflicts 1agg on user.

I lean towards (b) as a global fix to DBR for *any* gun.

gomi


Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>>o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,
>>> Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
>>This is an official rule.
>No, it is not. It has never been printed in an official source (FAQ, DTR,
>RTR). While it is obvious, it is not clear that the DT/RT wants the
>obvious to be official.

Actually, it was included in the June 22 DTR (attached at end).

>>>Elder Kindred Network - has no effect if the vote is successful.

>>This is the official ruling.

>No. The last we heard was that it was being checked on.
>You gave your opinion, which is why you are cited above.
>Again no offical word has ever been given.

Hm. I guess it dropped out of the appropriate DTR for some reason.
In any event, that is the official rulings.

>>>o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.

>>Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
>>some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
>>It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.

>The same thing that's stopping them from blocking a "leave torpor" action.
>(Whatever that is).

I have no idea what that is either. Is there some official statement
I can't find that allies can't block a "rescue myself" action?

>I'm no expert on the World of Darkness, so I try to make things look the
>same from a Jyhad/V:tES perspective.

Fair enough.


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

===> June 22 rulings

GENERAL RULINGS

1) Cards which say they are not usable by a vampire going into
torpor, such as Pulled Fangs, cannot be played by a vampire being
burned in combat, either. For example, a vampire being burned by
aggravated damage cannot use Taste of Vitae.

2) During each Resolve Strike steps, deliver first strikes, then
clean up from them, then deliver normal strikes, then clean up
from those. "Cleaning up" includes preventing or suffering any
damage done. So if a vampire steals a Flak Jacket at the same
time it is being struck with a point of damage, it can use that
jacket to prevent that point of damage.

3) A vampire can only be burned by aggravated damage if it takes
X + 2 damage from a single source, where X is the amount of blood
it had before suffering the aggravated damage. For example,
aggravated damage dealt by a Ghoul Retainer cannot combine with
its host's aggravated damage to burn a vampire.


REVERSALS

1) Scorn of Adonis may be played at any point during a political
action up until when the votes are tallied. It may thus be played
after the referendum is set.


ERRATA TO CARDS AND RULES

None!

CARD RULINGS

1) "I control both the edge and Curse of Nitocris, and then spend
the edge for a vote. If I am the next person to get the edge, do
I get to give control of the curse to someone else?"
Yes.

2) If the current recipient of the Rack changes controllers, the
player who controls the Rack decides how much blood that vampire
gets during each of its untaps, and can choose to give it 0 blood
each time.

3) If superior Faceless Night is used, the ability applies to the
minion current attempting to block the acting minion, and any
further minions who try to block that action. It does not apply
to minions who tried to block the action earlier, unless they
somehow get the chance to try to block it again. Vampires
affected by this card won't become tapped until it has been
determined whether they've successfully blocked the action or not.

4) Brujah Frenzy cannot force a vampire in torpor to go into
combat. You can use it on a Brujah taking an action in torpor,
but while the action will be blocked, the Brujah won't be forced
into combat, regardless of whether there are any ready vampires.
You cannot use it on a ready Brujah if you can't choose a minion
for it to fight.

5) The abilities of Wolf Companion, Murder of Crows, and Ghoul
Retainer are not considered strikes. They may not be dodged,
effects that prevent damage from strikes cannot be used against
them, etc.

6) Allies can block a vampire with Camarilla Exemplary without
paying any kind of penalty.

7) Cards such as Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection cannot
override "who can bleed who" restrictions such as Minor Boon. You
can still play such cards if there are three players in the game
and you are being bled by a vampire who can't bleed the third
player; such cards would simply have no effect.

Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to

Alan Eisinger <eisi...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu> wrote:
>>Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
>>some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
>>It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.
>I think the point being made here is that a Mesuthelah will not jeapordize the
>Masquarade by ordering a kine ally (who, in most cases, is not aware of the
>entire truth about his employer) to do something that revealing regarding
>vampires.

Except that in the World of Darkness, vampires routinely make use of
retainers and such that know exactly who they are serving. And several
allies are certainly going to know about vampires: garou and gypsies, for
example.

Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>I heard a rumor (from you) that tourney rules were to have been posted
>some time ago. What is the status on that?

They were posted today :) They were mainly hung up by 1) the DC moving
to only releasing rules at the start of the month, and 2) cranking the
various tournament rules through editing.

>Will officially sanctioned tournaments have card limits?

>That is, do the tournament rules for either Jyhad or V:tES specify
>no card limits?

There's a restricted list, but in general, cards are not limited.

>If sanctioned tournaments use card limits, will they have to make this
>deviant practice known to the participants *before* the tournament, or
>are rules changes at the last minute (and after) acceptable at official
>tourneys?

>("15 minutes to rebuild a deck I've spent the last month fine-tuning? Thanks")

Sanctioned tournaments would only be able to impose general card limits
with the express permission of the DC, which has almost no chance of
happening, since the key to the DC is standardization. Last-minute changes
are not acceptable unless circumstances force them, and this is not the
kind of thing that gets forced.

>Also, how can the lowly player verify that a tourney claiming to be sanctioned
>is really sanctioned and not simply GenConning?

Call up the DC at (206) 226-6500.

TLMadden

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
Greetings,

Quick question about some Jyhad rulings.

Which is done first.. regular or aggravated damage (in the case of the
Dragon Breath rounds) so as to know if a vampire goes to torpor or is
burned completely.

Terry Madden

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:

>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:

>>>>o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,
>>>> Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
>>>> [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

>>>This is an official rule.
>>No, it is not. It has never been printed in an official source (FAQ, DTR,
>>RTR). While it is obvious, it is not clear that the DT/RT wants the
>>obvious to be official.

>This appears in the June 22 DTR (attached at end).

Anyone got a copy of this? I couldn't find it anywhere (including the end
of the quoted article :-).

Also, anyone got any RGA/FAQ/DTR/RTR not on the following list?

Rules Group answers to Jyhad questions, 9/23/94
REPOST/UPDATE: Errata to cards for Jyhad (Date: 9 Nov 1994)
NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad (Date: 9 Nov 1994)
Design Team Rulings: 12/22/94
JYHAD: Design Team Rulings 02/09/95
*NEW* Official FAQ for Jyhad, April 95 version
Revised Jyhad FAQ: 4/18/95 version
DESIGN TEAM RULINGS: 5/9/95
Design Team Rulings: 5/30/95
Rules Team Rulings, 9/6/95, Jyhad/VTES

Thanks.

Stuart J. Pieloch

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Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>They were posted today :) They were mainly hung up by 1) the DC moving

>Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for


>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

WHERE?

Stu
--
Stu Pieloch TLTT Players-Lord High And Mighty Potentate of the Known Universe
DramaTech Theatre Improv Troupe http://photobooks.gatech.edu/~zync/lttp.html
GE/T/S d++(--) H(-) s++:- g+(-) p2 au++ a- w+++(--) v++ C++ U N++ W---() M+ V--
po+++(---) t--- 5+++ G+++ B--- e++ u++ f+ r++ n--- y*

L. Scott Johnson

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Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>Actually, it was included in the June 22 DTR (attached at end).

>===> June 22 rulings

>GENERAL RULINGS

>REVERSALS

>1) Scorn of Adonis may be played at any point during a political
>action up until when the votes are tallied. It may thus be played
>after the referendum is set.

If played after a Methuselah casts a vote, does it retroactively cause
that Methuselah to pay a pool penalty?

>4) Brujah Frenzy cannot force a vampire in torpor to go into
>combat. You can use it on a Brujah taking an action in torpor,
>but while the action will be blocked, the Brujah won't be forced
>into combat, regardless of whether there are any ready vampires.
>You cannot use it on a ready Brujah if you can't choose a minion
>for it to fight.

>7) Cards such as Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection cannot

>override "who can bleed who" restrictions such as Minor Boon. You
>can still play such cards if there are three players in the game
>and you are being bled by a vampire who can't bleed the third
>player; such cards would simply have no effect.

The two above rulings are blatantly incongruous.

BF cannot be played unless a target can be obtained, but
Deflection can be played even if a target does not exist.

Par for the course, I reckon.

For clarification (7), you're saying that Deflection can be played (for no
effect) even in a two-player game, right? If not, please explain the
difference between that and an N-player game when only one Meth is a valid
target.

Alan Eisinger

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Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
In article <4525p5$b...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>Alan Eisinger <eisi...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu> wrote:
>>>Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
>>>some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?
>>>It's not like kindred can smell torporous vampires or anything.
>>I think the point being made here is that a Mesuthelah will not jeapordize the
>>Masquarade by ordering a kine ally (who, in most cases, is not aware of the
>>entire truth about his employer) to do something that revealing regarding
>>vampires.
>
>Except that in the World of Darkness, vampires routinely make use of
>retainers and such that know exactly who they are serving. And several
>allies are certainly going to know about vampires: garou and gypsies, for
>example.
>
Some are, some aren't. Even for those who do know about vampires, a Mesuthelah
is taking a major risk in giving them access to a vampire in torpor. But this
digression doesn't really matter ... and i have now forgotten what the start of
this thread is. In da real rulez, can allies block rescue from torpor actions?

Also, Tom, are you going to be a corporate capitalist bastard :) and make us go
buy Duelist 7 to find out what the card swaps are? (If so, somebody else post
them)

gnfnrf

Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to

Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote:
>: If you're referring to the GenCon tournament, a 4-per-card limit was used

>: "for the heck of it", and the tournament was not actually sanctioned.
>It was referred to as a Sanctioned Tournament _many_ times here, and this
>is the first time you have ever corrected it, TTBOMK. Also some of the
>posters referring to it that way were _there_, so they were obviously
>under the impression that it was sanctioned...

I know I've corrected it, tho it might have only been in email. Doubt it,
though. And it had been advertised as sanctioned at some point; it just
never was.

>: >o. Cards which cannot be used by vampires going to torpor (Pulled Fangs,


>: > Amaranth) cannot be used by a vampire burned in combat, either.
>: > [LSJ] [CSA] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK] [JRM]

>: This is an official rule.
>For this (and the other listings you say are official rules): are you
>declaring them to be so _now_, or are you saying that they were declared
>this way before? I do not remember any of them being declared as
>Official Rules/Errata in any of the RTR postings...

It was a mix, most likely. This ruling appeared in the June 22 list.

>: >Zip Gun - may not use Dragon Breath Rounds
>: > [CSA]
>: Redundant listing.
>No... the other one is under Dragon Breath Rounds. If someone is trying
>to look up house rules by card name, then both listings should be in present.

Well, whatever. Not my list.

>: >Malkavian Dementia - returns the affected Malkavian untapped.


>: > [JF] [JHJ] [LSJ] [ASHK]
>: > -JRM-
>: > Returns the affected Malkavian at the moment the untap phase begins.
>: > [LSJ] [JHJ] [SHWT] [ASHK]

>: Technical point...
>Actually, these are meant to be two mutually exclusive house-rules. #1
>returns it after untapping but befire anything else, #2 returns it before
>untapping, so it is returned in whatever state it started the untap phase in.
>All house rules pertaining to a given card are listed under that card,
>but not all are meant to work together.

It's obvious that house rules are sometimes exclusive, but the lack of a
line break between these rules makes it look like they're supposed to be
used together. Obviously just a formatting issue.

>: >o. Actions by vampires in torpor can be blocked by Kindred ONLY.
>: Maybe I'm forgetting something about World of Darkness, but what's to stop
>: some Gypsies, or whatever, from stumbling over a torporous vampire?...
>: >o. Transferring equipment from a vampire in torpor can be done by
>: > Kindred ONLY.
>: Again, this seems nonsensical...


>(In answer to both points above) Allies cannot encounter a vampire in
>torpor, even to allow it to rescue itself. Why not? What is it exactly
>that rescuing from torpor represents? Obviously, the rescuer does not
>_have_ to give of itself, or there would not be a provision for the
>torpored vampire paying both blood.

It certainly seems plausible that coaxing a vampire out of torpor requires
some kind of psychic link that only another vampire could create, regardless
of who's going to supply the blood.

>Also, if a torpored vampire takes
>the action 'Rescue Self from Torpor', it _cannot_ be blocked by any allies.

As far as I know, this is only according to the house rules.

>An ally _can_, however, stop a vampire who is taking a Rapid Healing
>action, even though this performs the exact same function as 'Rescue Self
>from Torpor'. Similarly, they can block a Movement of the Slow Body.
>In neither case, however, can they actually commit the diablerie allowed
>by the card, so why can they block the action at all?

Why not? Diablerie is a specialized process that, again, only a vampire
can initiate. But assuming that blocking a "rescue myself" action amounts
to little more than kicking the vampire in the head, there doesn't seem
to be a reason why, say, a garou couldn't do that. Sure, it can't diablerize,
but it can disrupt the self-rescue process.

>We (and I speak here for those who agree with these two rulings) are
>merely going for overall consistency: care to explain the inconstency on
>WotC's part?

How's the above work for you?

Caveat: I haven't compared notes with the rest of the rules team, but am
just working with my somewhat limited knowledge of the World of Darkness.

Thomas R Wylie

unread,
Oct 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/7/95
to

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>1) Scorn of Adonis may be played at any point during a political
>>action up until when the votes are tallied. It may thus be played
>>after the referendum is set.
>If played after a Methuselah casts a vote, does it retroactively cause
>that Methuselah to pay a pool penalty?

Seems like it would, but I'm only about 50% sure of that. Will have
to double check.

>>4) Brujah Frenzy cannot force a vampire in torpor to go into
>>combat. You can use it on a Brujah taking an action in torpor,
>>but while the action will be blocked, the Brujah won't be forced
>>into combat, regardless of whether there are any ready vampires.
>>You cannot use it on a ready Brujah if you can't choose a minion
>>for it to fight.
>

>>7) Cards such as Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection cannot
>>override "who can bleed who" restrictions such as Minor Boon. You
>>can still play such cards if there are three players in the game
>>and you are being bled by a vampire who can't bleed the third
>>player; such cards would simply have no effect.
>

>The two above rulings are blatantly incongruous.
>
>BF cannot be played unless a target can be obtained, but
>Deflection can be played even if a target does not exist.

A "target" does exist for the Deflection, but Minor Boon short-circuits
the Deflection's successful resolution. The BF ruling was worded pretty
badly, and thinking about it, probably is slightly off. Under the
general principles of VTES, it should be that you can always Frenzy a
Brujah if there is an untapped minion in play that is controlled by
another player, even if the Brujah can't actually enter combat with that
minion. The action will become blocked, and the second minion will be
tapped, but combat won't start. I'll have to verify that, though.

>For clarification (7), you're saying that Deflection can be played (for no

>effect) even in a two-player game, right?...

In a two-player game, you can play Deflection to deflect the bleed to
yourself. So it's not quite "to no effect", but the effect doesn't do
anything significant, either.

Thomas R Wylie

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Oct 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/7/95
to

Alan Eisinger <eisi...@galaxy.ee.rochester.edu> wrote:
>...In da real rulez, can allies block rescue from torpor actions?

Yes.

>Also, Tom, are you going to be a corporate capitalist bastard :) and make us
>go buy Duelist 7 to find out what the card swaps are? (If so, somebody else
>post them)

The main reason I haven't posted it is because #7 hasn't hit the streets
yet, and we have a policy of releasing such information in the Duelist
(or sometimes, the Companion) first. Since I'm R&D editor for the Duelist,
it would be pretty bad if I ignored its policies ;) I'm sure they'll
make it online once #7 is out.

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Oct 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/8/95
to
fre...@anthrax.cisco.com (Frederick Scott) writes:

>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:

>>I heard a rumor (from you) that tourney rules were to have been posted
>>some time ago. What is the status on that?

>Is there some misunderstanding here? The sanctioned tourney rules for Jyhad


>were published in the Duelist Companion several months ago. Or did you mean
>_new_ tourney rules?

Misunderstanding, I guess. I was asking about Tourney rules posted on
r.g.t-c.jyhad, which (TTBOMK) is independent of The Duelist Companion.

Any tourney rules suffice.

Shane Travis

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Oct 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/9/95
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Shane Travis (tra...@duke.usask.ca) wrote:
: Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

: : Shane Travis <tra...@duke.usask.ca> wrote:
: : >: >Zip Gun - may not use Dragon Breath Rounds


: : >: > [CSA]
: : >: Redundant listing.
: : >No... the other one is under Dragon Breath Rounds. If someone is trying
: : >to look up house rules by card name, then both listings should be in present.

: : Well, whatever. Not my list.

: Aaah... but this isn't your list, now is it? :-)

Sigh.

As was pointed out to me politely in private e-mail, I have gone and made
an arse of myself again in a public forum. (so what's new? :-)

I read Tom's comments as, "Not _on_ my list," and answered appropriately,
shooting my mouth off. My apologies.

Shane H.W. Travis | I try to take one day at a time,
tra...@duke.usask.ca | but sometimes several days attack at once.
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Ashleigh Brilliant


Charles T. Schwope

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Oct 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/9/95
to
Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

: >Also, how can the lowly player verify that a tourney claiming to be sanctioned


: >is really sanctioned and not simply GenConning?

: Call up the DC at (206) 226-6500.


Since we are all internet enabled here, an email address that we
can communicate to the DC through might be nice. (Well, at least for us.
The might not like the mail bombs their likely to recieve b/c of the new
tourney rules.)

--
Charles T. Schwope | Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the
aka CT | time he is noticed, he is gone forever, a
ch...@fpah1.dseg.ti.com | retinal afterimage that fades, and is obscured
c-sc...@ti.com | by newer, brighter lights.

Shane Travis

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Oct 15, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/15/95
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Matt Griffith/LandPhil Records (land...@oasis.novia.net) wrote:

: Uhm, are Catiffs considered Kindred? I think that Uriah Winter should be
: able to diablerize Sammy, but I thought I read somewhere that they
: weren't considered to be kindred, due to their clanlessness, etc.

Uriah is a vampire (however weak his blood may be) and thus perfectly
able to diablerize - if he can get away with it.

: Also would Hasine Kesi cause her Methusela to spend a blood pool to
: encounter someone in torpor?

He he he... Nice try, but no. Her 'drawback' is referring to when she
is _sent_ to torpor through combat or damage.

Biomech8

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Oct 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/16/95
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In article <45s01t$3...@nntp.novia.net>, land...@oasis.novia.net (Matt

Griffith/LandPhil Records) writes:
>Uhm, are Catiffs considered Kindred? I think that Uriah Winter should be

>able to diablerize Sammy, but I thought I read somewhere that they
>weren't considered to be kindred, due to their clanlessness, etc.

Kindred=Vampires, Caitiffs are vampires and therefore they are Kindred.
The only reason that Caitiffs are "Clanless" is because they are so far
down the generation ladder that they have weak blood. It supposedly
started out with Caine, who was the most powerful of all the Kindred, and
then his offspring were slightly less powerful, and their offspring
slightly less powerful etc. So by the time you get down to the caitiffs
who are in the "teens" of generations (if I can recall) the blood line is
so weak that the characteristics of the clan lines (disciplines, behaviors
etc.) does not hold true.

>Also would Hasine Kesi cause her Methusela to spend a blood pool to
>encounter someone in torpor?

>I'll go back to lurking now...
> Matt Griffith

Interesting point, but she is not going to torpor but encountering someone
"in torpor". Although in the gaming space there is a torpor "region",
Torpor is not a physical place, but a state that a vampire's body can
"enter". Though a vampire may go to a place where they can safely heal
their wounds (like a coffin, crypt, haven, etc.) when another vampire
"encounters" them they do not enter a place called "torpor", but rather
they are encountering a person who is in the physical state of torpor.
Hope that explains something, and doesn't confuse you even more.

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