Jon: Q: Sabbat cards (rulings needed)

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L. Scott Johnson

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Nov 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/4/96
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Jon,
here's a stack of questions for the next meeting of the Rules Team.

(To other readers of this group: yes, many of these questions seem to
have obvious answers. Close inspection and/or comparison with other
cards and/or rules leads to areas of discrepancy, which I would like
an official source to clear up. Please do not follow up to this
post with guesses as to how the cards should work. While common
sense can be used to resolve nearly all of these, often my idea of
common sense doesn't match the Design Team's eventual ruling, so...
On the other hand, if there has been an official answer given that
would clear up some of the concepts that are presented here, I
welcome hearing about them. Thanks for your indulgence in this matter)

-----

>Antonio Delgado
>9 Capacity
>OBT DOM POT tha
>Lasombra
>Sabbat Archbishop of Atlanta: If Antonio performs a successful political
>action, untap him at the end of the turn.

Does Antonio untap if the vote fails? (i.e., the action is successful, but
not the referendum)

>Blood Brother Ambush
>2 blood
>Brujah Antitribu
>Action Modifier/Ally
>Put this card in play when an action is blocked. Combat does not occur. This
>card is then considered to be an ally with 3 life and 2R damage; this ally
>enters combat with the blocking minion. Blood Brothers may play cards
>requiring basic Potence as a vampire with a capacity of 3. Any cost in blood
>is paid with life. If a card would give them blood, give them life instead.
>Burn this card at the end of combat or if the combat is canceled.

Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)

>Bloodbath
>1 blood
>Action
>Requires a ready Priscus, Cardinal, or Archbishop.
>This is a +1 stealth action.
>Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Sabbat vampire with capacity above
>4. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire with this card gains 1
>additional vote during each political action unless he or she already has a
>title. A vampire may have only one Bloodbath.

If the target vampire later gains a title, will that new title cause him to
lose the vote he gains from Bloodbath?

>Bonecraft
>1 blood
>Combat
>Vicissitude
>Strike: 1 damage
>Put this card on the opposing minion. The minion with this card has -1 hand
>damage. (This does not affect the Strike Resolution step this round.) He or
>she may burn this card by paying 2 blood as a +1 stealth action.
>* As above, but the minion with this card has -2 hand damage.

Since the "does not affect resolution this round" text is in parentheses,
it is intended as reminder text. However, it oversteps its bounds in this
area - it should say that it doesn't affect the current strike resolution
step. For it to have no effect on any additional strikes gained by the
target in the current round, it shouldn't be in parentheses.

So, which is it? Just the current resolution (as per the parentheses),
or any additional strikes as well?

>Bribes
>Action modifier
>Only usable during a political action before votes are cast. Gain 1 pool. Any
>other Methuselah who votes in your favor and does not vote against you gains 1
>pool when the results of the vote are tallied.

The acting Methuselah now gains a pool even if she doesn't vote? (for
instance, if her vampire called a vote as allowed by a card in play and
had no titled vampires in play.)

>Camarilla Vitae Slave
>2 blood
>Lasombra
>Retainer
>Retainer with 1 life.
>The vampire with this retainer increases his or her capacity by 1. During each
>of his or her controller's master phases, he or she may choose a basic level
>Discipline he or she possesses. He or she then has the chosen Discipline at
>the superior level until his or her controller's next master phase.

If the retainer is burned before your next master phase, does this text still
apply "from beyond the grave"? (I assume it will still function if the
retainer is stolen).

>Catatonic Fear
>Presence
>Combat
>Strike: combat ends
>* As above, and the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution.

Since S:CE terminates strike resolution before any damage is done [RTR],
how is the superior different from the inferior?

If errata is given to this card allowing the damage to be done despite the
fact that there is no damage resolution phase, can Fortitude cards be played
to prevent the damage (since the RT thinks that such cards can only be played
during damage resolution)?

If so, is this damage part of the strike (i.e., preventable by Skin of Steel)?

>Code of Milan Suspended
>Political Action
>Political Card-Worth 1 Vote
>Called by any Sabbat vampire at +1 stealth
>If this vote is successful, the Methuselah with the Edge burns 1 pool.

Is the target chosen at the start of the referendum, of at the end (a la
Domain Challenge)? That is, if the Meth with the Edge burns the Edge for
a vote during the referendum, will she lose one pool is the referendum is
successful?

>Communal Haven: Temple
>1 pool
>Sabbat
>Master
>Master: location
>Each Sabbat vampire you control gets +1 intercept when attempting to block (D)
>actions directed against other Sabbat vampires you control. A player may have
>only one Communal Haven in play.

The target of the (D) action doesn't get the +1 intercept, by card text,
correct?

>Derange
>Dementation
>Action
>This is a +1 stealth action.
>(D) Put this card on a vampire who is not a Malkavian antitribu. The vampire
>with this card is now considered to be a Malkavian antitribu and is no longer
>a member of his or her original clan. The vampire with this card may move it
>to another vampire as a (D) action.
>*As above, and the vampire with this card does not untap as normal. He or she
>may burn 1 blood to untap.

The vampire with this card can move it to a "real" Malkavian antitribu?
If so is the new target no longer a member of any clan?

>Detection
>Master
>Master
>Put this card on a Lasombra. The vampire with this card does not untap during
>the untap phase, but may burn 1 blood to untap. The vampire cannot cast votes.
>He or she may burn this card as a (D) action.

The target can pay one blood to untap at any time? Or just during the untap
phase (of any Meth's turn, since it isn't specified)?

>Direct Intervention
>1 pool
>Master
>Master: out-of-turn
>Burn a minion card as it is played. Any blood or pool cost burned for that
>card is retrieved from the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played
>it. If the burned card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped.
>If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.

If this card is played during the voting process of a political action (or
during a Blood Hunt or Wild Hunt), is either this card or the cancelled card
replaced before the vote is completed?

>Dirty Little Secrets
>Nosferatu Antitribu
>Action Modifier
>Only usable when the acting vampire successfully bleeds a Methuselah. For each
>pool your vampire bleeds from that Methuselah, burn one card from the top of
>that Methuselah's library.

If you successfully bleed a methuselah, but another Meth pays the cost (due
to a Major Boon), whose library is affected?

>Ethan Locke
>9 Capacity
>THA DOM pot aus cel
>Tremere Antitribu
>Sabbat Archbishop of Toronto: As a (D) action, Ethan may steal a Master
>Discipline card from another vampire if he does not already possess the
>superior version of that Discipline.

Is this action directed at the vampire, or just at the vampire's controller
(the controlled of the skill card)? (This is important for cards like
Communal Haven).

If you control the skill card, but not the vampire (he's been corrupted, for
instance), your Ethan cannot attempt to steal the skill card because that
would make the (D) action self-directed, correct?

>Fire Dance
>Action
>Requires a ready Priscus, Cardinal, or Archbishop.
>This is a +1 stealth action.
>Put this card on a Sabbat vampire. Once each combat, the vampire with this
>card may change one point of damage from aggravated to normal. A vampire may
>have only one Fire Dance.

Is this a (D) action if you put the card on a vampire that some other Meth
controls? ("yes", by definition of directed; "no" by RT standards)

>Goth Band
>2 pool
>Toreador Antitribu
>Ally
>Unique Ally with 2 life.
>1 hand damage, 0 bleed.
>As a +1 stealth (D) action, the Goth Band may move one counter from any master
>card in play to a master card you control that uses counters.

If you move vandal counters to your Powerbase, are they still vandal counters,
or are they just powerbase counters? (Errata required to transmute the
counters).

If you move Investment/Powerbase/Sphinx counters to a Vicissitude Poisoning
that you control, do they transform into poison counters?

If you move currency counters to a Vicissitude Poisoning card that you
control, do they morph into poison counters?

(Incidentally, except for "blood" counters used by Investments, Blood Puppy,
and (arguably) Acq.Ventrue Assets, Ravnos Cache, Grand Temple of Set,
Powerbases and Wassershloss Anif) the counters used by cards should be
treated as different things - not capable of being used on master cards
requiring other types of counters.

Especially, the "history" counters used by Strained Viate Supply and Dreams
of the Sphinx should be viewed as inviolate - the only reason that counters
are used at all is that history isn't supposed to be kept in a CCG (although
several cards; like 6th Tradition, Lextalionis, and Compel the Spirit; make
their own exceptions (and these exceptions lead to confusion in certain cases).

Mucking with history counters is a trait best left to that other game.

>Legacy of Caine
>Master
>Master
>Put this card on a vampire with a capacity above 6 controlled by another
>Methuselah. When the vampire with this card hunts, he or she steals 1 blood
>from another vampire as a (D) action instead of performing the usual hunting
>action.

Can he steal 1 blood from a vampire in Torpor?

What happens if there are no vampires with blood on them? Does he still
(D) hunt on one of them? What if there are no other vampires at all?

>Machine Blitz
>Thaumaturgy
>Combat
>Choose a weapon possessed by the opposing minion.
>Strike: ranged; X damage, where X is the amount of damage inflicted by a
>weapon the opposing minion controls
>* As above, with +1R damage.

This means "amount of damage that would be inflicted by the weapon"?
Or "amount the weapon actually inflicts this round/strike"?
Will it work if the weapon is burned before Machine Blitz resolves?

>March Halcyon
>1 Capacity
>for
>Pander
>If March is diablerized, no one can call a Blood Hunt against the acting
>vampire.

Can you call a Wild Hunt?

Can you call a Blood Hunt if the diabolist is not the acting vampire?

>Mind Rape
>2 blood
>Dominate
>Action
>(D) Bleed with +2 bleed.
>* (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire.
>Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on
>this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed.

Do you lose control of the vampire when the Mind Rape is burned? (you should,
but other minion cards that xfer control of vampires have continuous effects;
perhaps a little errata here?)

>Mistaken Identity
>1 blood
>Reaction
>Requires a ready vampire.
>Play during a hunting action attempted by a Ventrue antitribu. This action is
>considered blocked, and the acting vampire goes into torpor.

Must you wait until the hunt is successful (like XTC or Foul Blood)?

>Nephandus (Mage)
>2 Pool
>Tremere Antitribu
>Ally
>Ally with 2 life.
>1R damage, 1 bleed.
>Nephandus gets an optional press each combat. Opposing minions inflict -1
>damage to her during combat. As a (D) action, Nephandus may burn a vampire in
>torpor to gain an additional life.

Does "-1 during combat" mean effectively "Nephandus can prevent 1 damage
each combat" (per card text)?

Or was it intended to mean "Opposing minions have inflict -1 damage each
strike" (and do you wish to issue errata to that effect?)

If the "burn a vamp in torpor" action is successful, but the vampire plays a
Reform Body, does Nephandus still gain a life?

>Primal Instincts
>1 blood
>Combat
>Auspex
>Strike: dodge
>* Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has chosen his
>or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.

If the acting minion plays Rapid Thought (which uses a much better template
to identify the vampire that this card assumes is the acting vampire), can
the blocker then use superior Primal Instincts after choosing strikes?

>Propaganda
>2 blood
>Presence
>Combat
>(D) Bleed with +1 bleed. Vampires with titles cannot block this action.
>* As above, and the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of his or her ready
>minions.

Can the target choose to tap one of her tapped minions (to no effect)?

>Quickness
>1 blood
>Celerity
>Combat
>Additional strike
>* As above, but this strike does not count against this vampire's additional
>strikes for this round. A vampire may only play one Quickness each round.

[Again, since the point seems to have been missed:]

Since this card (an additional strike card) counts against the vampire's
additional strike card limit (of one) [Sec 21], the vampire cannot play
any more cards to gain additional strikes after playing superior Quickness,
right? (Or is errata forthcoming?)

>Reform Body
>Vicissitude
>Combat/Reaction
>Only usable when this reacting vampire is burned; he or she is sent into
>torpor instead.
>* As above, but the vampire gains 2 blood from the blood bank.

If a diabolist succeeds, but is faced with a Reformed Body, does the
Diabolist still get the blood and/or equipment from the Reformer? If not,
can a Blood Hunt or Wild Hunt still be called?

If a vampire is burned in combat, but Reforms, can the opposing vampire
play Amaranth or Behead to (re)burn him? If so, can the Reformed vampire
play another Reform Body to save himself a second time (and gain two more
blood)?

If the vampire is burned via Goodnight Sweet Prince or a Sabbat
Inquisitor, can he play Reform Body to become controlled (in torpor)?

>Shadow Step
>Obtenebration
>Combat
>Maneuver
>* Only usable at the beginning of a round. This vampire burns 2 blood to set
>the range for that round. If he or she does so, skip the Establish Range step
>for this round.

Is the 2 blood the cost for playing superior Shadow Step? If so, can
it be reduced by the Citadel or ignored by Dragos? If not, can a vampire
with 0 blood use the effect (ignoring burn blood effects past his current
blood supply?)

>Sword of Judgment
>2 pool
>Brujah Antitribu
>Equipment
>Unique melee weapon
>The Brujah antitribu with this equipment gets +1 hand damage with each strike;
>he or she gains an optional additional strike each round of combat.

A non-Brujah antitribu cannot use this weapon (if it is stolen)?

Can a non-Assamite use a Kali's Fang (if it is stolen)?

>Thanks for the Donation
>Dominate
>Action
>This is a +1 stealth action.
>Put this card on a card you are contesting with another Methuselah; not usable
>on a card that bestows a title. Your cost to avoid yielding the contested card
>is now paid by your prey. (You still decide whether you will yield.) This card
>may be burned by any minion as a (D) action.

Since minion cards played "on" contested cards are out of play (except w.r.t.
being contested themselves), this card has no effect, correct?

--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Only XT users know that
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Jan 1, 1980 was a Tuesday.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
to

On 04-Nov-96, L. Scott "Civilian" Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote:
>>Antonio Delgado

>>Sabbat Archbishop of Atlanta: If Antonio performs a successful political
>>action, untap him at the end of the turn.

>Does Antonio untap if the vote fails? (i.e., the action is successful, but
>not the referendum)

No.

Antonio Delgado - his special ability will not untap him unless the vote
passes (precedent set by Cryptic Rider). (*)

>>Blood Brother Ambush - Action Modifier/Ally


>>Put this card in play when an action is blocked. Combat does not occur. This
>>card is then considered to be an ally with 3 life and 2R damage; this ally
>>enters combat with the blocking minion. Blood Brothers may play cards
>>requiring basic Potence as a vampire with a capacity of 3. Any cost in blood
>>is paid with life. If a card would give them blood, give them life instead.
>>Burn this card at the end of combat or if the combat is canceled.

>Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
>torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
>the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)

Yes. No. (*)

Blood Brother Ambush - can be used by a Brujah attempting an action from
Torpor, when that action is blocked. The action is blocked and canceled.
The blocker doesn't get the option to diablerize the Brujah. (similar
to how Change of Target functions).

>>Bloodbath


>>Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Sabbat vampire with capacity above>>4. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire with this card gains 1
>>additional vote during each political action unless he or she already has a
>>title. A vampire may have only one Bloodbath.

>If the target vampire later gains a title, will that new title cause him to
>lose the vote he gains from Bloodbath?

Yes. Bloodbath gives an ability to the target. This ability is "gain one
extra vote unless you have a title". Having a title will nullify the vote,
but note the ability to gain a vote if you don't have a title.

Bloodbath - If the target already has or subsequently gains a title, then he
doesn't get an extra vote from the Bloodbath. If the target loses his
title, then he again gets his extra vote from the Bloodbath.

>>Bonecraft


>>Strike: 1 damage
>>Put this card on the opposing minion. The minion with this card has -1 hand
>>damage. (This does not affect the Strike Resolution step this round.) He or
>>she may burn this card by paying 2 blood as a +1 stealth action.
>>* As above, but the minion with this card has -2 hand damage.

>Since the "does not affect resolution this round" text is in parentheses,
>it is intended as reminder text. However, it oversteps its bounds in this
>area - it should say that it doesn't affect the current strike resolution
>step. For it to have no effect on any additional strikes gained by the
>target in the current round, it shouldn't be in parentheses.

>So, which is it? Just the current resolution (as per the parentheses),
>or any additional strikes as well?

Just the current resolution, as the parentheses imply. Additional strikes
will be influenced by the Bonecraft.

Bonecraft - the "(This does not affect the Strike Resolution step this round.)"
reminder text is properly read as "(This does not affect the current pair of
Strike Resolution steps.)". That is, any additional strikes after the
strike that was annnounced with the Bonecraft strike will be affected.

>>Bribes
>>Action modifier
>>Only usable during a political action before votes are cast. Gain 1 pool. Any
>>other Methuselah who votes in your favor and does not vote against you gains 1>>pool when the results of the vote are tallied.

>The acting Methuselah now gains a pool even if she doesn't vote? (for
>instance, if her vampire called a vote as allowed by a card in play and
>had no titled vampires in play.)

Yes. Card text.

>>Camarilla Vitae Slave


>>Retainer with 1 life.
>>The vampire with this retainer increases his or her capacity by 1. During each>>of his or her controller's master phases, he or she may choose a basic level
>>Discipline he or she possesses. He or she then has the chosen Discipline at
>>the superior level until his or her controller's next master phase.

>If the retainer is burned before your next master phase, does this text still
>apply "from beyond the grave"? (I assume it will still function if the
>retainer is stolen).

Yes. The vampire has been granted an ability which will last for a definite
period of time. This ability is not dependent on maintaining control of the
retainer. (*)

Camarilla Vitae Slave - The vampire keeps his chosen discipline at
superior until his controller's next untap phase even if the retainer
is burned or stolen.

>>Catatonic Fear
>>Presence
>>Combat
>>Strike: combat ends
>>* As above, and the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution.

>Since S:CE terminates strike resolution before any damage is done [RTR],
>how is the superior different from the inferior?

>If errata is given to this card allowing the damage to be done despite the
>fact that there is no damage resolution phase, can Fortitude cards be played
>to prevent the damage (since the RT thinks that such cards can only be played
>during damage resolution)?

>If so, is this damage part of the strike (i.e., preventable by Skin of Steel)?

Hmm. Still can't figure this one out, since the Rules Team is pretty clear
on wanting to have the damage dealt in the phase of combat which has been
pre-empted by the Combat Ends effect. I'll have to check on this.

>>Code of Milan Suspended


>>Political Card-Worth 1 Vote
>>Called by any Sabbat vampire at +1 stealth
>>If this vote is successful, the Methuselah with the Edge burns 1 pool.

>Is the target chosen at the start of the referendum, of at the end (a la
>Domain Challenge)? That is, if the Meth with the Edge burns the Edge for
>a vote during the referendum, will she lose one pool is the referendum is
>successful?

At the start. Allowing the victim to opportunity to burn the Edge to
avoid the entire effects of this vote is not sensical.

Code of Milan Suspended - should be read as "Choose the Methuselah with the
Edge. Successful vote means that the chosen Methuselah burns one pool."

That is, the methuselah with the edge burns a pool, even if she no longer
has the edge when the vote passes. This is different from the way Domain
Challenge works, but for obvious reasons.

>>Communal Haven: Temple


>>Master: location
>>Each Sabbat vampire you control gets +1 intercept when attempting to block (D)>>actions directed against other Sabbat vampires you control. A player may have
>>only one Communal Haven in play.

>The target of the (D) action doesn't get the +1 intercept, by card text,
>correct?

Correct. Card text.

Communal Haven: Temple - The Sabbat vampire targetted by a (D) action doesn't
get the +1 intercept bonus from this card.

>>Derange


>>This is a +1 stealth action.
>>(D) Put this card on a vampire who is not a Malkavian antitribu. The vampire
>>with this card is now considered to be a Malkavian antitribu and is no longer>>a member of his or her original clan. The vampire with this card may move it
>>to another vampire as a (D) action.
>>*As above, and the vampire with this card does not untap as normal. He or she>>may burn 1 blood to untap.

>The vampire with this card can move it to a "real" Malkavian antitribu?
>If so is the new target no longer a member of any clan?

No (to avoid creating a paradox in the second sentence).
Moot.

Derange - cannot be moved to a Malkavian Antitribu vampire. (*)

>>Detection


>>Put this card on a Lasombra. The vampire with this card does not untap during
>>the untap phase, but may burn 1 blood to untap. The vampire cannot cast votes.>>He or she may burn this card as a (D) action.

>The target can pay one blood to untap at any time? Or just during the untap
>phase (of any Meth's turn, since it isn't specified)?

Attach the obvious restriction (errata) to the untap effect.
Also, attach the usual errata about control to make that (D) action
part make sense (akin to Shackles, Temptation, etc.)

Detection - Should read: "Put this card on a Lasombra. The vampire with
this card does not untap as normal, but may burn 1 blood once during his
controller's untap phase to untap. The vampire with this card cannot
cast votes. The vampire with this card may burn this card as a (D)
action. This card remains controlled by the Methuselah who controlled
the acting vampire when this card was played."

Also change the superior of Derange (above) to:


"As above, and the vampire with this card does not untap as normal.

He or she may burn 1 blood to untap during his controllers untap phase."

>>Direct Intervention


>>Master: out-of-turn
>>Burn a minion card as it is played. Any blood or pool cost burned for that
>>card is retrieved from the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played
>>it. If the burned card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped.>>If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.

>If this card is played during the voting process of a political action (or
>during a Blood Hunt or Wild Hunt), is either this card or the cancelled card
>replaced before the vote is completed?

Neither card is replaced, under the "no cards are replaced during a political
action" rule.

>>Dirty Little Secrets


>>Only usable when the acting vampire successfully bleeds a Methuselah. For each>>pool your vampire bleeds from that Methuselah, burn one card from the top of
>>that Methuselah's library.

>If you successfully bleed a methuselah, but another Meth pays the cost (due
>to a Major Boon), whose library is affected?

Effectively: No one's.
Since the Methuselah you are bleeding (the "that Methuselah" in the second
sentence) loses zero pool, she burns zero cards. And the card makes no
provisions for affecting other Methuselah's libraries, so the Methuselah
who is actually losing pool is unaffected.

>>Ethan Locke


>>Sabbat Archbishop of Toronto: As a (D) action, Ethan may steal a Master
>>Discipline card from another vampire if he does not already possess the
>>superior version of that Discipline.

>Is this action directed at the vampire, or just at the vampire's controller
>(the controlled of the skill card)? (This is important for cards like
>Communal Haven).

At the skill card, and thus the Methuselah who controls the skill card.
It is not directed at the vampire, since the vampire doesn't control the
skill card (which is the same reason that the skill card still increases
the vampire's capacity if he is Banished).

>If you control the skill card, but not the vampire (he's been corrupted, for
>instance), your Ethan cannot attempt to steal the skill card because that
>would make the (D) action self-directed, correct?

Correct.

>>Fire Dance


>>This is a +1 stealth action.
>>Put this card on a Sabbat vampire. Once each combat, the vampire with this
>>card may change one point of damage from aggravated to normal. A vampire may
>>have only one Fire Dance.

>Is this a (D) action if you put the card on a vampire that some other Meth
>controls? ("yes", by definition of directed; "no" by RT standards)

It is undirected, no matter the target's controller. (*) Precedent set by
the ruling on "Of Noble Blood". <4b7pg4$d...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

Fire Dance - You don't choose the vampire to be given the Dance until
it's clear the action won't be blocked, as usual for the terms of votes

>>Goth Band


>>Unique Ally with 2 life.

>>As a +1 stealth (D) action, the Goth Band may move one counter from any master>>card in play to a master card you control that uses counters.

>If you move vandal counters to your Powerbase, are they still vandal counters,
>or are they just powerbase counters? (Errata required to transmute the
>counters).

>If you move Investment/Powerbase/Sphinx counters to a Vicissitude Poisoning
>that you control, do they transform into poison counters?

>If you move currency counters to a Vicissitude Poisoning card that you
>control, do they morph into poison counters?

Unknown - no precedent or real-WoD parallel on which to base a decision.
I'll pass this along to the Rules Team for judgement.

>(Incidentally, except for "blood" counters used by Investments, Blood Puppy,
>and (arguably) Acq.Ventrue Assets, Ravnos Cache, Grand Temple of Set,
>Powerbases and Wassershloss Anif) the counters used by cards should be
>treated as different things - not capable of being used on master cards
>requiring other types of counters.

>Especially, the "history" counters used by Strained Viate Supply and Dreams
>of the Sphinx should be viewed as inviolate - the only reason that counters
>are used at all is that history isn't supposed to be kept in a CCG (although
>several cards; like 6th Tradition, Lextalionis, and Compel the Spirit; make
>their own exceptions (and these exceptions lead to confusion in certain cases).
>Mucking with history counters is a trait best left to that other game.

I'll pass the suggestions on to the Rules Team, as well. :-)

>>Legacy of Caine


>>Put this card on a vampire with a capacity above 6 controlled by another
>>Methuselah. When the vampire with this card hunts, he or she steals 1 blood
>>from another vampire as a (D) action instead of performing the usual hunting
>>action.

>Can he steal 1 blood from a vampire in Torpor?

>What happens if there are no vampires with blood on them? Does he still
>(D) hunt on one of them? What if there are no other vampires at all?

Yes, he can steal from a vampire in torpor.
If he hunts, he must still take the (D) action vs. a vampire, even if
there are no vampires with blood to steal.
When hunting on a target that has no blood to steal, a successful action
will simply have no effect (stealing zero blood).
If there are no targets (vampires) at all, then he cannot hunt.

>>Machine Blitz


>>Choose a weapon possessed by the opposing minion.
>>Strike: ranged; X damage, where X is the amount of damage inflicted by a
>>weapon the opposing minion controls
>>* As above, with +1R damage.

>This means "amount of damage that would be inflicted by the weapon"?
>Or "amount the weapon actually inflicts this round/strike"?
>Will it work if the weapon is burned before Machine Blitz resolves?

The former. (*)
The 'X' is set when the strike is announced, so won't change if the
chosen weapon is destroyed.

Machine Blitz - inflicts an amount of ranged damage equal to the amount
the chosen weapon would inflict if it were chosen as a strike. This
amount is set when Machine Blitz is announced.

>>March Halcyon
>>1 Capacity
>>for
>>Pander
>>If March is diablerized, no one can call a Blood Hunt against the acting
>>vampire.

>Can you call a Wild Hunt?

>Can you call a Blood Hunt if the diabolist is not the acting vampire?

No, since Wild Hunts and Blood Hunts are the same thing.

A Blood/Wild Hunt can be called if the diabolist is not the acting vampire.
(Card text).

>>Mind Rape


>>* (D) Put this card on a younger vampire; you gain control of that vampire.
>>Put two ego counters on this card. Each untap phase, burn one ego counter on
>>this card. Burn this card when the last counter on it is removed.

>Do you lose control of the vampire when the Mind Rape is burned? (you should,
>but other minion cards that xfer control of vampires have continuous effects;
>perhaps a little errata here?)

Yes.

Mind Rape - superior: control of the vampire reverts to his former controller
when the last ego counter on Mind Rape is removed.

>>Mistaken Identity
>>Reaction


>>Play during a hunting action attempted by a Ventrue antitribu. This action is
>>considered blocked, and the acting vampire goes into torpor.

>Must you wait until the hunt is successful (like XTC or Foul Blood)?

No, it can be played when the hunt is attempted, before or after
block attempts (but not once a block is successful). (Card text).

>>Nephandus (Mage)


>>Ally with 2 life.
>>1R damage, 1 bleed.
>>Nephandus gets an optional press each combat. Opposing minions inflict -1
>>damage to her during combat. As a (D) action, Nephandus may burn a vampire in
>>torpor to gain an additional life.

>Does "-1 during combat" mean effectively "Nephandus can prevent 1 damage
>each combat" (per card text)?

>Or was it intended to mean "Opposing minions have inflict -1 damage each
>strike" (and do you wish to issue errata to that effect?)

>If the "burn a vamp in torpor" action is successful, but the vampire plays a
>Reform Body, does Nephandus still gain a life?

The latter (-1 damage per strike). (*)

Reform Body cannot be played, since it is a reaction card and reaction cards
cannot be played from torpor. (errata)

Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
at -1 damage.

>>Primal Instincts


>>* Only usable by the acting vampire after the opposing minion has chosen his
>>or her strike. Cancel this vampire's strike and choose a new one.

>If the acting minion plays Rapid Thought (which uses a much better template
>to identify the vampire that this card assumes is the acting vampire), can
>the blocker then use superior Primal Instincts after choosing strikes?

No. Only the acting vampire can use superior Primal Instincts (card text).

>>Propaganda


>>(D) Bleed with +1 bleed. Vampires with titles cannot block this action.
>>* As above, and the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of his or her ready
>>minions.

>Can the target choose to tap one of her tapped minions (to no effect)?

No. (errata)

Propaganda - the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of her ready, untapped
minions if the action is successful.

>>Quickness


>>Additional strike
>>* As above, but this strike does not count against this vampire's additional
>>strikes for this round. A vampire may only play one Quickness each round.

>[Again, since the point seems to have been missed:]

>Since this card (an additional strike card) counts against the vampire's
>additional strike card limit (of one) [Sec 21], the vampire cannot play
>any more cards to gain additional strikes after playing superior Quickness,
>right? (Or is errata forthcoming?)

Superior Quickness doesn't count against the vampire's additional strikes
limit for the current round. (errata).

Quickness - superior should read: "As above, but this additional strike
card (quickness) does not count against this vampire's additional strike
effect limit for this round.

>>Reform Body


>>Only usable when this reacting vampire is burned; he or she is sent into
>>torpor instead.
>>* As above, but the vampire gains 2 blood from the blood bank.

>If a diabolist succeeds, but is faced with a Reformed Body, does the
>Diabolist still get the blood and/or equipment from the Reformer? If not,
>can a Blood Hunt or Wild Hunt still be called?

No and no. The diablerie is considered unsuccessful (this only applies to
diablerie within combat, since otherwise the victim could not play Reform
Body as a reaction card, since he's in torpor).

>If a vampire is burned in combat, but Reforms, can the opposing vampire
>play Amaranth or Behead to (re)burn him? If so, can the Reformed vampire
>play another Reform Body to save himself a second time (and gain two more
>blood)?

Yes and Yes. (*)

>If the vampire is burned via Goodnight Sweet Prince or a Sabbat
>Inquisitor, can he play Reform Body to become controlled (in torpor)?

No. Reaction cards are only playable by ready vampires (an extension of
the "not playable by vampires in torpor" errata)

>>Shadow Step


>>* Only usable at the beginning of a round. This vampire burns 2 blood to set
>>the range for that round. If he or she does so, skip the Establish Range step
>>for this round.

>Is the 2 blood the cost for playing superior Shadow Step? If so, can
>it be reduced by the Citadel or ignored by Dragos? If not, can a vampire
>with 0 blood use the effect (ignoring burn blood effects past his current
>blood supply?)

No. It is the cost for setting the range. Shadow Step (superior) merely
grants the vampire the (mandatory) ability to use that effect. The cost
cannot be reduced by the Citadel nor ignored by Dragos, since it is not
the cost of playing a card. A vampire with zero blood cannot pay the cost,
so cannot set the range.

>>Sword of Judgment
>>Brujah Antitribu


>>Unique melee weapon
>>The Brujah antitribu with this equipment gets +1 hand damage with each strike;>>he or she gains an optional additional strike each round of combat.

>A non-Brujah antitribu cannot use this weapon (if it is stolen)?

Correct. If the Sword comes into the possession of a minion who is not
a Brujah Antitribu, then that minion will not be able to use it.

>Can a non-Assamite use a Kali's Fang (if it is stolen)?

Yes, since Kali's Fang doesn't restrict itself to only letting Assamites
strike for 2 aggravated damage.

>>Thanks for the Donation


>>This is a +1 stealth action.
>>Put this card on a card you are contesting with another Methuselah; not usable>>on a card that bestows a title. Your cost to avoid yielding the contested card>>is now paid by your prey. (You still decide whether you will yield.) This card>>may be burned by any minion as a (D) action.

>Since minion cards played "on" contested cards are out of play (except w.r.t.
>being contested themselves), this card has no effect, correct?

Heh, no this one stays in play (errata).

Thanks for the Donation - stays in play even though it is a minion card and
the minion it is on is contested. Treat it as if it says: "Put this card
into play and choose a card your are contesting with another Methuselah..."

--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Steven Bucy

unread,
Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
to


> >Nephandus (Mage)
> >>Ally with 2 life.
> >>1R damage, 1 bleed.
> >>Nephandus gets an optional press each combat. Opposing minions inflict
-1
> >>damage to her during combat. As a (D) action, Nephandus may burn a >
>>vampire in torpor to gain an additional life.
>
> >Does "-1 during combat" mean effectively "Nephandus can prevent 1 damage
> >each combat" (per card text)?
>
> >Or was it intended to mean "Opposing minions have inflict -1 damage each
> >strike" (and do you wish to issue errata to that effect?)
>
> >If the "burn a vamp in torpor" action is successful, but the vampire
plays a
> >Reform Body, does Nephandus still gain a life?
>
> The latter (-1 damage per strike). (*)
>
> Reform Body cannot be played, since it is a reaction card and reaction
cards
> cannot be played from torpor. (errata)
>
> Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
> at -1 damage.

Yikes! How do you kill this guy? If this is true the only ways I can think
of are Cryptic Mission, Mariel, Drawing out the Beast, Carrion Crows,
Catatonic Fear, and Weather Control. Where are all those Nephandus's I
had...

--
Steve Bucy

I'd be better off undead...

"Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to
indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar


L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

Steven Bucy (tb...@lainet.com) wrote:

: > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
: > at -1 damage.

: Yikes! How do you kill this guy? If this is true the only ways I can think


: of are Cryptic Mission, Mariel, Drawing out the Beast, Carrion Crows,
: Catatonic Fear, and Weather Control. Where are all those Nephandus's I
: had...

Use a hand strike that does more than one damage. Lucky blow (for 2) will
cost Nephandus 1 life (since the strike is at -1). Two of those, and
Nephandus is toast. Or, one sewer lid, one undead strength, or one hit
from a chainsaw will kill him (cost him [3-1=2] life).

Or you can use theft of vitae to steal one or two life from him, the latter
killing him outright, the former costing him one life.

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
: Steven Bucy (tb...@lainet.com) wrote:

: : > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
: : > at -1 damage.


Oops. Nephandus' ability doesn't restrict itself to strikes. This should
be:

Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion


opposing Nephandus is at -1 damage.

--

Ryan Anderson

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

On 25 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> : : > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
> : : > at -1 damage.
>
> Oops. Nephandus' ability doesn't restrict itself to strikes. This should
> be:
>
> Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion


> opposing Nephandus is at -1 damage.

Shouldn't this be phrased, "all damage from strikes or other effects by a
minion is reduced by 1" ? (To clarify at least one misconception on this
ruling I noticed today..)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Anderson - <Pug Majere>
rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu
PGP Fingerprint - 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57 E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
finger rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu for my public key.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

Ryan Anderson wrote:
>
> On 25 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> > : : > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
> > : : > at -1 damage.
> >
> > Oops. Nephandus' ability doesn't restrict itself to strikes. This should
> > be:
> >
> > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion

> > opposing Nephandus is at -1 damage.
>
> Shouldn't this be phrased, "all damage from strikes or other effects by a
> minion is reduced by 1" ? (To clarify at least one misconception on this
> ruling I noticed today..)
>

Monomancy says that a vampire gets -1 bleed. Would that make Ozmo
bleed for -1 or for 1?

If Nephandus operated in reverse, how would you interpret it?

Sudnahpen (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion
opposing Sudnahpen is at +1 damage.

Now, what's so hard about that?

Ryan Anderson

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> > > : : > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike made by a minion opposing Nephandus is
> > > : : > at -1 damage.
> > > Nephandus (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion


> > > opposing Nephandus is at -1 damage.

> > Shouldn't this be phrased, "all damage from strikes or other effects by a
> > minion is reduced by 1" ? (To clarify at least one misconception on this
> > ruling I noticed today..)
>
> Monomancy says that a vampire gets -1 bleed. Would that make Ozmo
> bleed for -1 or for 1?
>
> If Nephandus operated in reverse, how would you interpret it?
>
> Sudnahpen (Mage) - Each strike or other damaging effect made by a minion
> opposing Sudnahpen is at +1 damage.
>
> Now, what's so hard about that?

Nothing. It's just that one post (it's gone off my listing now, but I saw
it this morning) appeared to think that this phrasing (-1 damage) set the
damage from strikes equal to -1. I was merely suggesting that the errate
clarify this. (as the card has enough problems as it is...)

Chris Shorb

unread,
Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to L. Scott Johnson

L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> On 04-Nov-96, L. Scott "Civilian" Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote:

[deletia]

>
> >>Bribes
> >>Action modifier
> >>Only usable during a political action before votes are cast. Gain 1 pool. Any
> >>other Methuselah who votes in your favor and does not vote against you gains 1>>pool when the results of the vote are tallied.
>
> >The acting Methuselah now gains a pool even if she doesn't vote? (for
> >instance, if her vampire called a vote as allowed by a card in play and
> >had no titled vampires in play.)
>
> Yes. Card text.
>

This may be a stupid question, but when you call a vote, must the vote
that you gain for that card be in favor of the vote? Minutia indeed,
since I can think of no reason to vote against (except to cycle cards).


>
> --
> L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
> Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
> (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

--


Chris Shorb
ino...@ix.netcom.com
"How can I describe it?...It's a nightmare land, a place
of death, horrifying in its desolation...Not a tree, not a
flower, not a blade of grass..."


Tom Renbarger

unread,
Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97
to

L. Scott Johnson wrote:

>>>Catatonic Fear
>>>Presence
>>>Combat
>>>Strike: combat ends
>>>* As above, and the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution.
>
>>Since S:CE terminates strike resolution before any damage is done [RTR],
>>how is the superior different from the inferior?
>
>>If errata is given to this card allowing the damage to be done despite the
>>fact that there is no damage resolution phase, can Fortitude cards be played
>>to prevent the damage (since the RT thinks that such cards can only be played
>>during damage resolution)?
>
>>If so, is this damage part of the strike (i.e., preventable by Skin of Steel)?
>
> Hmm. Still can't figure this one out, since the Rules Team is pretty clear
> on wanting to have the damage dealt in the phase of combat which has been
> pre-empted by the Combat Ends effect. I'll have to check on this.

>

> --
> L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
> Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
> (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

My apologies if this has been brought up before, but is it possible that
WOTC meant for the card to be like Riposte in terms of the damage? If the
vamp that plays CF has superior Presence, combat ends, the opposing minion
takes one damage (eliminate the "during strike resolution" text), and the
damage is unpreventable as the prevent damage step never happens.

Tom

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97
to

Chris Shorb (ino...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: L. Scott Johnson wrote:
: > >>Bribes
: > >instance, if her vampire called a vote as allowed by a card in play and

: > >had no titled vampires in play.)
: >
: > Yes. Card text.

: This may be a stupid question, but when you call a vote, must the vote

: that you gain for that card be in favor of the vote? Minutia indeed,
: since I can think of no reason to vote against (except to cycle cards).

You need not cast the vote at all.
Also, you only get that vote if you call a vote with a Political Action
card. If you call a vote to remove the Elysium, you do not automatically
get a vote.

L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97
to

Tom Renbarger (t...@clark.phys.nwu.edu) wrote:
: WOTC meant for the card to be like Riposte in terms of the damage? If the

: vamp that plays CF has superior Presence, combat ends, the opposing minion
: takes one damage (eliminate the "during strike resolution" text), and the
: damage is unpreventable as the prevent damage step never happens.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Both Riposte and Catatonic Fear (superior) deal their damage during
strike resolution. Whether that damage (catatonic fear) is elligble
for damage prevention is unclear, since the strike resolution phase
doesn't actually happen after a S:CE (and damage prevention cards
have been ruled to only be playable during strike resolution).

David Pontes

unread,
Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
to

On 26 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> Chris Shorb (ino...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : This may be a stupid question, but when you call a vote, must the vote
> : that you gain for that card be in favor of the vote? Minutia indeed,
> : since I can think of no reason to vote against (except to cycle cards).
>
> You need not cast the vote at all.

You mean you can call a vote to vote against?

The vote card is also an action card. Does the vote given by the
action card attach itself to the acting minion (making it vulnerable to
manipulation by other cards) or is it just like any burnt political card?

David Pontes

8[


L. Scott Johnson

unread,
Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
to

David Pontes (l41...@alfa.ist.utl.pt) wrote:

: On 26 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

: > Chris Shorb (ino...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >
: > : This may be a stupid question, but when you call a vote, must the vote
: > : that you gain for that card be in favor of the vote? Minutia indeed,
: > : since I can think of no reason to vote against (except to cycle cards).
: >
: > You need not cast the vote at all.

: You mean you can call a vote to vote against?

You can call a vote and cast your votes (from the PA used to call
the vote and/or from titled vampires, the Edge, etc.) against it, yes.

: The vote card is also an action card. Does the vote given by the

: action card attach itself to the acting minion (making it vulnerable to
: manipulation by other cards) or is it just like any burnt political card?

It counts just like any burnt PA. The vote does not count as having been
cast by the vampire who called the vote (or any other vampire, for that matter).

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