Those Poor Caitiff

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Jozxyqk

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Dec 18, 2001, 1:58:58 PM12/18/01
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With all the new Bloodlines, Caitiff still aren't considered a
"clan", right?
So, no Sanguine Instruction?
Magdelena Schaefer can't share her mad thaumaturgical skillz with
Smudge, til they both agree to Clan Impersonate? (or Smudge just gets
a Master Discipline card, of course)

James Coupe

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Dec 18, 2001, 7:42:05 PM12/18/01
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In message <SlMT7.24165$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Jozxyqk

<jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes:
>With all the new Bloodlines, Caitiff still aren't considered a
>"clan", right?

Correct.

>So, no Sanguine Instruction?

Correct. (Card text.)

>Magdelena Schaefer can't share her mad thaumaturgical skillz with
>Smudge, til they both agree to Clan Impersonate?

Or they are both Revelation of the Sire-d into the same clan.


--
James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D It's been a long road, getting from there to here
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA213D7E It's been a long time, and my time is finally near
668C3695D623D5D I will see my dream come alive at last, I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind

mostly harmless

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Dec 18, 2001, 9:10:03 PM12/18/01
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
5K$a51EdJ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...

> In message <SlMT7.24165$5W5.10...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Jozxyqk
> <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes:
> >With all the new Bloodlines, Caitiff still aren't considered a
> >"clan", right?
>
> Correct.
>

Really?

I mean it makes sense from the RPG point of view, but is that an official
ruling?

M.


James Coupe

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Dec 18, 2001, 9:15:24 PM12/18/01
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In message <%FST7.1198$wN3....@news.chello.at>, mostly harmless

<mostlyh...@chello.atNOSPAM!> writes:
>> >With all the new Bloodlines, Caitiff still aren't considered a
>> >"clan", right?
>>
>> Correct.
>
>Really?

Yes. All Caitiff are Camarilla vampires (unless card text or whatever
over-rides this) but are members of no clan.

"One of the major sects is the Camarilla, which is composed of the seven
clans found in the base set: Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu,
Toreador, Tremere and Ventrue, as well as the Caitiff, who are
technically clanless." [10.1]


This means that Consanguineous Boon: Caitiff isn't possible, for
instance.

mostly harmless

unread,
Dec 18, 2001, 9:39:42 PM12/18/01
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
ySHY$$i8g$H8E...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...

> In message <%FST7.1198$wN3....@news.chello.at>, mostly harmless
> <mostlyh...@chello.atNOSPAM!> writes:
> "One of the major sects is the Camarilla, which is composed of the seven
> clans found in the base set: Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu,
> Toreador, Tremere and Ventrue, as well as the Caitiff, who are
> technically clanless." [10.1]
>
>
> This means that Consanguineous Boon: Caitiff isn't possible, for
> instance.

Thanks.

M.


Shaun McIsaac

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Dec 19, 2001, 5:11:02 AM12/19/01
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<ySHY$$i8g$H8E...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...

> In message <%FST7.1198$wN3....@news.chello.at>, mostly harmless
> <mostlyh...@chello.atNOSPAM!> writes:
> >> >With all the new Bloodlines, Caitiff still aren't considered a
> >> >"clan", right?
> >>
> >> Correct.
> >
> >Really?
>
> Yes. All Caitiff are Camarilla vampires (unless card text or whatever
> over-rides this) but are members of no clan.
>
> "One of the major sects is the Camarilla, which is composed of the seven
> clans found in the base set: Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu,
> Toreador, Tremere and Ventrue, as well as the Caitiff, who are
> technically clanless." [10.1]
>
>
> This means that Consanguineous Boon: Caitiff isn't possible, for
> instance.

Is Consangiuneous Boon: Pander possible? The rulebook makes no
separate distinction for them being clanless.

Noal McDonald

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Dec 19, 2001, 11:02:00 AM12/19/01
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smci...@onesourcecorp.com (Shaun McIsaac) wrote:
> Is Consangiuneous Boon: Pander possible? The rulebook makes no
> separate distinction for them being clanless.

Pander is a clan, while Caitiff is not. :. Pander is a legal recipient
of Consangiuneous Boon.

While not specifically stated, I suppose that's what differentiates
the vampires created by Shock Troops from Pander and possibly Caitiff.
I'm not sure whether they are considered Sabbat Caitiff. If so, they
could be the target of Revelation of the Sire but could also be
targets of Tradition Upheld.

LSJ? Your thoughts?

Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit

Brian

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Dec 19, 2001, 3:18:55 PM12/19/01
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> While not specifically stated, I suppose that's what differentiates
> the vampires created by Shock Troops from Pander and possibly Caitiff.
> I'm not sure whether they are considered Sabbat Caitiff. If so, they
> could be the target of Revelation of the Sire but could also be
> targets of Tradition Upheld.

I asked LSJ about this earlier, concerning Call the Great Beast. I
thought, since he's a clanless, independent vampire, he might be a
Caitiff (just not Camarilla). I was only asking cause I thought
Tradition Upheld on him was pretty funny. Try to picture a couple
vampires holding Satan in the sunlight.

Even though in the roleplaying game, clanless vampires are called
"caitiff", LSJ said this is not so in the card game. A vampire must
be specifically designated as Caitiff to be one, I figure he means by
symbol or card text.

I've heard a vampire of 14th generation has a 50% chance of being a
caitiff, and a 15th generation vamp has 100% chance, but it sometimes
happens at older generations, too--the clan weakness and affinities
for disciplines aren't passed along, for whatever reason. Off topic,
I suppose, but I thought it was interesting that there could be
caitiffs all the way up to 2nd generation. Technically, Caine's a
caitiff, isn't he?

Emmit Svenson

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Dec 19, 2001, 5:08:44 PM12/19/01
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dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) wrote in message news:<bb705c59.01121...@posting.google.com>...

> I suppose that's what differentiates
> the vampires created by Shock Troops from Pander and possibly Caitiff.
> I'm not sure whether they are considered Sabbat Caitiff. If so, they
> could be the target of Revelation of the Sire but could also be
> targets of Tradition Upheld.
>
> LSJ? Your thoughts?

And while you're at it, what about The Great Beast? He has no clan;
does that make him Caitiff for the purposes of those other cards?

(Imagine how much it would suck to have Tradition Upheld played on
your Beast. On the other hand, imagine how much fun it would be to
Reveal his Sire is, say, Normal. A Malkavian Great Beast has definite
possibilities.)

Halcyan 2

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Dec 19, 2001, 6:03:38 PM12/19/01
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>> While not specifically stated, I suppose that's what differentiates
>> the vampires created by Shock Troops from Pander and possibly Caitiff.
>> I'm not sure whether they are considered Sabbat Caitiff. If so, they
>> could be the target of Revelation of the Sire but could also be
>> targets of Tradition Upheld.
>
>I asked LSJ about this earlier, concerning Call the Great Beast. I
>thought, since he's a clanless, independent vampire, he might be a
>Caitiff (just not Camarilla). I was only asking cause I thought
>Tradition Upheld on him was pretty funny. Try to picture a couple
>vampires holding Satan in the sunlight.

Correct. "Clanless" and "Caitiff" and two separate terms. Revelation of the
Sire only works on those designated "Caitiff." (Doesn't make that much sense
RPG-wise. But then any card that would let you target a vampire should let you
target other Methusalehs then, no?).

>Off topic,
>I suppose, but I thought it was interesting that there could be
>caitiffs all the way up to 2nd generation. Technically, Caine's a
>caitiff, isn't he?

Yes. Technically, all of the original Tremere were Caitiff too.

Halcyan 2

LSJ

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Dec 19, 2001, 6:12:33 PM12/19/01
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Wolves are mammals.
Caitiff are clanless (Camarilla) vampires.

Not all mammals are wolves.
Not all clanless (Camarilla) vampires are Caitiff.

Caitiff are vampirs with the Caitiff symbol on them (or sired by Caitiff
or otherwise denoted as "Caitiff").

Other clanless vampires (Camarilla or not) are not.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ

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Dec 19, 2001, 6:13:04 PM12/19/01
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Emmit Svenson wrote:
> And while you're at it, what about The Great Beast? He has no clan;
> does that make him Caitiff for the purposes of those other cards?

No.
Caitiff are Caitiff.
Other clanless vampires are not.

James Coupe

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Dec 19, 2001, 6:35:33 PM12/19/01
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In message <8f507d2e.01121...@posting.google.com>, Shaun

McIsaac <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> writes:
>> This means that Consanguineous Boon: Caitiff isn't possible, for
>> instance.
>
>Is Consangiuneous Boon: Pander possible? The rulebook makes no
>separate distinction for them being clanless.

Yes, the Pander are a real clan.

In the Sabbat, the Sabbat-Caitiff rallied round one vampire (Joseph
Pander) who got them recognition as Real Vampires.


The Camarilla still has a rag-tag bag of individual vampires scurrying
round.

Noal McDonald

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Dec 20, 2001, 12:36:14 AM12/20/01
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LSJ wrote:

> Wolves are mammals.
> Caitiff are clanless (Camarilla) vampires.
>
> Not all mammals are wolves.
> Not all clanless (Camarilla) vampires are Caitiff.
>
> Caitiff are vampirs with the Caitiff symbol on them (or sired by Caitiff
> or otherwise denoted as "Caitiff").
>
> Other clanless vampires (Camarilla or not) are not.


A simple "Not all clanless vampires are considered Caitiff" would have
sufficed. :-P No need to talk down to...*wanders off to get coffee
before I get _really_ insulting*

Noal

LSJ

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Dec 20, 2001, 5:41:58 AM12/20/01
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Get called for being concise or
Get called for being verbose.

I love this place.

:-)

The verbosity wasn't directed to you specifically. I figured others, less
learned, might read the post. :-)

Stone

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Dec 20, 2001, 6:32:50 AM12/20/01
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3C21C076...@white-wolf.com...

(snip)


> > A simple "Not all clanless vampires are considered Caitiff" would have
> > sufficed. :-P No need to talk down to...*wanders off to get coffee
> > before I get _really_ insulting*
>
> Get called for being concise or
> Get called for being verbose.
>
> I love this place.
>
> :-)

Personnally, I prefer verbose explanations...and analogies are a good thing
when explaining things. I'd certainly like to see more of them. The best is
when you answer all of Mike Ooi's questions :)

Stone


Joshua Duffin

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Dec 28, 2001, 4:21:00 PM12/28/01
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C211EE1...@white-wolf.com...

> Wolves are mammals.
> Caitiff are clanless (Camarilla) vampires.
>
> Not all mammals are wolves.
> Not all clanless (Camarilla) vampires are Caitiff.
>
> Caitiff are vampirs with the Caitiff symbol on them (or sired by Caitiff
> or otherwise denoted as "Caitiff").
>
> Other clanless vampires (Camarilla or not) are not.


Why "sired by"? Is Caitiff inherited as if it were a clan,
even though it's not a clan? And if so, why?


Thanks,

Josh

catching up late

Chris Berger

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Dec 28, 2001, 9:17:01 PM12/28/01
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C21C076...@white-wolf.com>...

> Noal McDonald wrote:
> >
> > A simple "Not all clanless vampires are considered Caitiff" would have
> > sufficed. :-P No need to talk down to...*wanders off to get coffee
> > before I get _really_ insulting*
>
> Get called for being concise or
> Get called for being verbose.
>
> I love this place.
>
> The verbosity wasn't directed to you specifically. I figured others, less
> learned, might read the post. :-)

Whether or not it was directed at me (generally, that is; I assume it
wasn't directed at me specifically), I would like to thank you for the
verbosity. ;)

It wouldn't have mattered in this case, but you never know when
someone like me will say something like "but if Caitiff=clanless, then
by definition clanless=Caitiff! HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT CLANLESS
VAMPIRES ARE NOT CAITIFF???".

LSJ

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Dec 28, 2001, 9:50:53 PM12/28/01
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The vampire produced by a Caitiff performing the Embrace (or Third Tradition
or what have you) is a Caitiff.

Joshua Duffin

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Jan 2, 2002, 1:51:09 PM1/2/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C2D2F8D...@white-wolf.com...

> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> >
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > news:3C211EE1...@white-wolf.com...

> > > Caitiff are vampirs with the Caitiff symbol on them (or sired by


Caitiff
> > > or otherwise denoted as "Caitiff").
> > >
> > > Other clanless vampires (Camarilla or not) are not.
> >
> > Why "sired by"? Is Caitiff inherited as if it were a clan,
> > even though it's not a clan? And if so, why?
>
> The vampire produced by a Caitiff performing the Embrace (or Third
Tradition
> or what have you) is a Caitiff.

That doesn't answer the "why" question though. Is that part
not answerable? I don't understand why the attribute of being
Caitiff, despite not being a clan, is transmitted to an Embrace-
created vampire, which only has the text "this vampire ... is
the same clan as the acting vampire", when other non-clan
attributes such as Circle and Infernal are not passed on by
The Embrace.

Is it so you don't have the question "well, if an Embrace created
by a Caitiff is a non-Caitiff clanless vampire, then how do you
know what its sect is?" And if so, maybe it should be added to
the rulings list?


Josh

editing error... in my favor

LSJ

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Jan 2, 2002, 3:04:04 PM1/2/02
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Joshua Duffin wrote:
> Is it so you don't have the question "well, if an Embrace created
> by a Caitiff is a non-Caitiff clanless vampire, then how do you
> know what its sect is?" And if so, maybe it should be added to
> the rulings list?

Embrace inheritance - newly created vampires that are to be of
the same clan as the creating vampire inherit the Caitiffness
of the sire. This is the natural, intuitive way to handle this.

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