Basic DI Question
Peter D Bakija
seeing them a lot more. And I'm still kinda confused as to what happens
when you DI an Action Modifier. And I can't figure out what to archive
search for (having tried a few permutations of "DI+X+Author:LSJ"), I'm
asking you guys:
If I DI an action modifier, can the acting minion play the same action
modifier again? For example, Arika is coming to bleed me. I attempt to
block. Arika plays Bonding for +1 stealth. I DI the Bonding. Can she
play Bonding again?
Thanks,
-Peter, who should know better by now.
witness1
No. Arika has already played Bonding this action. Similarly, if Ancient
Influence is DI'd, no one can play another this game.
If your action is DI'd, it doesn't resolve (successfully or failed), so
you are not restricted by NRA, even though you have played the action
card.
> Thanks,
> -Peter, who should know better by now.
Witness1
-believe the lie.
kut...@gmail.com
To expound upon this, if a card is played, it may be DI'd, but any
other effects of the card are still lingering. Since Action Mods and
Reactions are restricted to one per action, if those are DI'd, others
can't be played. Freak Drive, Voter Captivation and Deflection are good
cards to DI since you lose the untap, blood gain opportunity or can't
bounce again. This also works for "once per combat" cards like Carrion
Crows, and once per game cards like the above mentioned Ancient
Influence--the lingering effect is triggered because the card was
played even if it was canceled. Actions are different though because
you simply start a new action again. A card has been played, but it was
nullified so NRA doesn't apply (the action wasn't attempted, only
announced). So you can play an identical action card again.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
J
> Influence is DI'd, no one can play another this game.
>
> If your action is DI'd, it doesn't resolve (successfully or failed), so
> you are not restricted by NRA, even though you have played the action
> card.
Yup, as the card states:
Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played. That card
has no effect. No cost is paid. If the burned card was an action card,
the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the
minion chooses another strike.
Key words "as it is played" which indicates successful playing of the
card before it is canceled.
--> J
Kevin M.
> Right. Now that everyone and their brother has DI in their deck,
> I am seeing them a lot more. And I'm still kinda confused as to
> what happens when you DI an Action Modifier.
1.6.3[2]
Action modifier cards:
...
"A minion cannot play the same action modifier more than once during a
single action."
So, just like Giant's Blood getting Suddened, but it was *played*, if an
Action Modifier gets DIed, you can still only *play* one action modifier
more than once during a single action.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
James Coupe
Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes:
>If I DI an action modifier, can the acting minion play the same action
>modifier again? For example, Arika is coming to bleed me. I attempt to
>block. Arika plays Bonding for +1 stealth. I DI the Bonding. Can she
>play Bonding again?
No, but you could play Conditioning or whatever.
This is the difference between, for example, Immortal Grapple and bleed
modifiers. Immortal Grapple's text limits it to one per round - so the
second one sees the first one that was already played (with no effect,
due to cancellation). The bleed modifiers only limit later play, by the
earlier card's card text - which has just been cancelled, by the DI. So
while you can't play another of the same action modifier (due to the
normal rules), you can play any of the other action modifiers that would
normally be prohibited.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Jeroen Rombouts
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> schreef in bericht
news:1160512072.7...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
never took of over here: too many DI's. If they DI your Freak drive, it's
over for a turn.
dome
> No, but you could play Conditioning or whatever.
>
> This is the difference between, for example, Immortal Grapple and bleed
> modifiers. Immortal Grapple's text limits it to one per round - so the
> second one sees the first one that was already played (with no effect,
> due to cancellation). The bleed modifiers only limit later play, by the
> earlier card's card text - which has just been cancelled, by the DI. So
> while you can't play another of the same action modifier (due to the
> normal rules), you can play any of the other action modifiers that would
> normally be prohibited.
afaik this is totaly wrong. the same that applies to immortal grapple,
applies to bonding, since in the same way that immortal grapple is
limited to one per round, so are bleed modifiers which state "After
playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further
increase the bleed for this action.". It is canceled, but still played,
so no more bleed modifiers after a DIed conditioning, or bonding, or any
bleed modifier other than Command of the Beast.
LSJ
James Coupe has is right.
The same that applies to Immortal Grapple applies to Bonding.
The card text of both is completely canceled, including their
prohibitions against subsequent card plays.
Both are still considered played, however.
For Bonding, that means that the acting minion cannot play another
Bonding, by the standard rules on not playing the same action modifier.
But Conditioning, &c. are not restricted.
For Immortal Grapple, there is no standard restriction, so in theory
another could be played. The thing that prohibits the second from being
played, however, is the card text on the second grapple. The second
grapple's card text says that only one can be played. That card text is
not canceled by the DI that erased the first grapple's effect, and the
first grapple was played, so the text on the second prevents the second
from being played.
Note, also, that a Bonding will prevent Command of the Beast from being
played later. To play both, you'd have to play Command of the Beast
first.
dome
> James Coupe has is right.
hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ?
something like :
What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use
it at superior?
What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I
use it at superior?
What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I
try another one?
or something. DI is confusing :|
LSJ
> LSJ wrote:
> > James Coupe has is right.
>
> hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ?
DI FAQ:
Direct Intervention cancels the entire effect of the card that was
played, but the card is still considered "played" (since it was
played).
Everything else (rules, text on other cards) is not canceled.
> something like :
>
> What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use
> it at superior?
Yes. Yes.
> What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I
> use it at superior?
Yes. Yes.
> What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I
> try another one?
Yes. Yes.
Repeat action restrictions are based on actions performed (actions that
reach resolution), not on action cards played.
Jozxyqk
> hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ?
> something like :
> What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use
> it at superior?
Yes. Yes.
> What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I
> use it at superior?
Yes. Yes.
> What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I
> try another one?
Yes. Yes.
It's actually simple, since "playing" a card has a specific meaning.
After DI is played, the canceled card was "PLAYed".
If it was an action card, it was never an action, so it doesn't incur the
"NRA taint". Actions are not "tainted" until they resolve (the action is
blocked or successful).
Direct Intervention, Tangle Atropos' Hold, and most cases of Mask of a Thousand
Faces, do not "taint" a vampire as having taken a particular action.
Action Modifiers and Reactions have specific "you can not PLAY two of the same"
rules in the rulebook.
Cards like Ancient Influence, if canceled, are completely canceled, but the
second one that tries to be PLAYed sees that a previous one was PLAYed.
James Coupe
writes:
>afaik this is totaly wrong. the same that applies to immortal grapple,
>applies to bonding, since in the same way that immortal grapple is
>limited to one per round, so are bleed modifiers which state "After
>playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further
>increase the bleed for this action.". It is canceled, but still played,
The text saying "After playing this card..." is cancelled by Direct
Intervention, just like all the other text on the card, and so has no
effect.
Andrew 'Wes' Weston
"dome" <le...@email.htnet.hr> wrote
>
> or something. DI is confusing :|
Don't forget to pause and ask if anyone wants to DI after every single
minion card played. It's a great way to time-out an otherwise fast-paced
game.
Cheers,
WES
(who hates DI almost as much as PTO)
Jeroen Rombouts
"Andrew 'Wes' Weston" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> schreef in bericht
news:egkfp...@enews1.newsguy.com...
DI is my most hated card. For exactly the reason you state above. OTOH, I
don't see a lot of possibility of playing an Ally deck without it (too much
ally stealing)
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
> hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ?
Interesting - I just did a sort of FAQ on DI, after this thread was
referenced back in some local mailing lists. It's in Portuguese,
though. Called it the "Ultimate DI Guide" and the local Prince is
thinking about writing an "Ultimate Guide" on Rotschreck, since these
are the two cards most misunderstood down here in Brazil, judging for
the number of questions we get about them.
The Guide is structured in five basic points about DI (and
consequently, any card that cancels other ones):
1. DI cancels the card text, but the cancelled card was still played
(as stressed a number of times in this thread).
2. DI doesn't supersede/replace the base rules of the game, such as the
limitations on action modifiers/reactions played by the same vampire in
the same action. It is important considering point 1, since the
cancelled card was still played.
3. Actions cancelled as played didn't even 'start' (or more
technically, never reached resolution, as LSJ pointed out), so they
don't trigger NRA-like clauses. This ties with point 2, since the rules
about non-repeatable actions are in the rulebook now.
4. Check out card-playing restrictions on each card cancelled,
especially for limitations like "only one [card X] can be played per
[turn/round/combat/game]"; the text has been cancelled, but a second
copy still has the text and the first copy was still played.
5. "As played" means "as played (from hand in the normal fashion)" save
explicit text on the contrary, so you can't DI/cancel a card brought to
play via other means (such as Vast Wealth or Concealed/Disguised
Weapon). So, you can DI a Concealed Weapon card but not the weapon it
is about to bring to play.
Once the player understand these 5 'tenets', he'll be able to handle DI
play smoothly no matter what card has been cancelled with it. Of
course, the text has examples on all points to illustrate them.
Did I forgot something?
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo
LSJ
6. (And this holds for Sudden Reversal as well): Cards are not replaced
in the "as played" window, but rather wait until after they are played.
Other card-moving effects (like all other effects, by default) are also
unable to sqeeze into the "as played" window. The "as played" window
for card X thus restricts all players to the cards they have in hand at
the time the card X is played. Specifically, you cannot tap Barrens or
Erciyes Fragments to go fishing for a DI or a Sudden in response to the
play of card X (although you could use a DI that was already on your
Fragment).
Jozxyqk
> 6. (And this holds for Sudden Reversal as well): Cards are not replaced
> in the "as played" window, but rather wait until after they are played.
> Other card-moving effects (like all other effects, by default) are also
> unable to sqeeze into the "as played" window. The "as played" window
> for card X thus restricts all players to the cards they have in hand at
> the time the card X is played. Specifically, you cannot tap Barrens or
> Erciyes Fragments to go fishing for a DI or a Sudden in response to the
> play of card X (although you could use a DI that was already on your
> Fragment).
Specifically you also don't get to draw your 2 cards from Servitor of
Irad until after the opportunity for Not to Be/Emergency Preparations
has passed.
Because *all* the cool kids play with Servitor of Irad!
Josh
not a cool kid
Peter D Bakija
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote:
> 1. DI cancels the card text, but the cancelled card was still played
> (as stressed a number of times in this thread).
I think the most pertinent point about DI that likely clears up all
other issues is that a card that is played and cancelled is still
"played" for all purposes. Other than that, everything kind of works
itself out by virtue of all the other rules.
-Peter
Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
Yeah, most of the 'tenets' above build up from that single fact on
'tenet' 1. Except maybe those related to 'as played' part, but these
are kind of cornercase when compared to the other issues.
We still have problems with the action bit here and there in the local
playgroups, though. Sometimes people assume that if the action card is
considered played, the action was attempted and, therefore, the minion
is restricted by NRA clauses. It's an assumption that obviously doesn't
consider how action resolution works, but it's an understandable
misconception since the NRA clauses apply even if the action is
blocked. It's a leap of logic, but people do that all the time.
And LSJ, thanks for part 6. I'll add it up as soon as possible (which
means, Tuesday) and translate the whole text to English.
Fabio "Sooner" Macedo