[Q:LSJ!] Changing sects does not change clan. But changing clan does change sect?

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Tim Eijpe

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Feb 24, 2003, 5:19:42 PM2/24/03
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Quote from the online rules:

10.2. Sabbat

The antitribu clans are distinct from their non-antitribu
counterparts. A vampire of one of the antitribu clans does not qualify
to play a card that requires the counterpart, and vice versa.
Likewise, if a vampire changes sects, his clan doesn't automatically
change. For example, a Brujah antitribu who becomes a Camarilla
vampire via Writ of Acceptance is still a Brujah antitribu, not a
Brujah.

Two friends of tim:
This states that your sect changes in the example but your clan
doesnt. The question is that the rules say (in our interpretation)
that when your clan changes your sect DOESNT automaticly changes.
example: If we read the rules we read that a if lasombra archbishop
gets a "Derange" and it changes to malkavian (not antribu), it becomes
a malkavian with a sabbat-sect and he can still keep his title.
So in short changing sect doesn't change clan. Changing clan does
change sect?

Like to read your explanation.
greets,
Jeroen van Oort and Remko van Hierden.

The Lasombra

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Feb 24, 2003, 5:45:32 PM2/24/03
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On 24 Feb 2003 14:19:42 -0800, time...@mail.com (Tim Eijpe) wrote:

>This states that your sect changes in the example but your clan
>doesnt. The question is that the rules say (in our interpretation)
>that when your clan changes your sect DOESNT automaticly changes.

Yes, it does automatically change.

See section 10 of the online rulbook for this quote.

"If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan Impersonation card,
for example) to a clan that belongs to a different sect (see the lists
in the following sections), he changes sects as well. "


>example: If we read the rules we read that a if lasombra archbishop
>gets a "Derange" and it changes to malkavian (not antribu), it becomes
>a malkavian with a sabbat-sect and he can still keep his title.

No, as soon as he becomes a Malkavian, he becomes Camarilla, and he
loses the benefits of his title until he returns to a Sabbat clan.


>So in short changing sect doesn't change clan.

Correct [10.2].

>Changing clan does change sect?

Yes [10].

Changing clan always changes sect per section 10 of the online
rulebook, here:

http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook/

Read the entire rules, not just one line and you will understand it a
lot better.


Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com

The Bard of Crete

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Feb 24, 2003, 6:58:59 PM2/24/03
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> Read the entire rules, not just one line and you will understand it a
> lot better.
>
I can see how this is a bit confusing for some. In summation:

Changing Sect does not change Clan, but
Changing Clan does change Sect.

Do I have that strait?


reyda

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Feb 24, 2003, 7:14:49 PM2/24/03
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yup !

Example 1 : Julian, a Brujah antitribu equipped with a writ of acceptance
will become a Camarilla brujah antitribu. He'll still be able to play Blood
brother Ambush or wield the Sword of judgement (since it requires specific
lan), but will not gain two blood when hunting if you have Hungry coyote in
play (since it requires sect). He will also lose the titles tied to his
older sabbat sect, like bishop or cardinal. But now he can gain Camarilla
titles, like princedom -but he will never become Brujah justicar, since he's
not a Brujah.

Example 2 : Jacko, a brujah antitribu, is playing "Clan impersonation" to
become a True Brujah : he will become an independant vampire. He will
benefit from Tabriz assembly, but will no longer be able to play Blood
brother ambush or wield the sword of judgment, since they requires a clan,
Brujah antitribu. Now, he's independant so he can call some fearsome free
states rant andplay fearful cards like banner of neutrality. Still, his new
clans allows him to learn Temporis from a sanguine instruction by his new
fellow Nu the pillar. Too bad he can't share the secret for his mysterious
additional strike with him =)

Example 3 (a bit stupid) : Julain the now camarilla brujah antitribu and
freshly named prince of Atlanta has his writ of acceptance stolen by a nasty
ravnos. Now he has no document proving that he is a Camarilla vampire. He
becomes sabbat again, losing his princely title. He rushes the Ravnos, send
him to torpor and diablerize him : he gets the writ of acceptance back and
regains his camarilla title : happy end. Strange isn't it ? =)


James Coupe

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Feb 24, 2003, 7:21:47 PM2/24/03
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In message <7ly6a.11811$Tz6.6...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of

Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> writes:
>Changing Sect does not change Clan, but
>Changing Clan does change Sect.
>
>Do I have that strait?

Yes.

Kite with a Writ of Acceptance is a Camarilla Malkavian Antitribu.

Gitane St Clair with a Clan Impersonation (Daughters of Cacophony) is
Independent Daughter of Cacophony.

Bear in mind that it must be a clan *change*. So being Lucita and CI-
ing to Lasombra means that you're an Independent Lasombra. (She didn't
*change* clan.)

--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

Jozxyqk

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Feb 25, 2003, 7:59:42 AM2/25/03
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <7ly6a.11811$Tz6.6...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of
> Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> writes:
>>Changing Sect does not change Clan, but
>>Changing Clan does change Sect.
>>
>>Do I have that strait?

> Yes.

> Kite with a Writ of Acceptance is a Camarilla Malkavian Antitribu.

> Gitane St Clair with a Clan Impersonation (Daughters of Cacophony) is
> Independent Daughter of Cacophony.

> Bear in mind that it must be a clan *change*. So being Lucita and CI-
> ing to Lasombra means that you're an Independent Lasombra. (She didn't
> *change* clan.)

Time for "corner-case-question theater":

Zebulon plays Derange on Lucita, making Lucita into a Camarilla Malkavian.
Lucita doesn't like being Malk, but doesn't feel like moving the Derange,
so she plays Clan Impersonation to Lasombra. Now she's a Sabbat Lasombra,
correct?

Now what happens if later on she moves the Derange?
Is she still a Sabbat Lasombra?
And if she burns the CI, is she an Independent Lasombra again?

LSJ

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Feb 25, 2003, 8:15:49 AM2/25/03
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Jozxyqk wrote:
> Zebulon plays Derange on Lucita, making Lucita into a Camarilla Malkavian.
> Lucita doesn't like being Malk, but doesn't feel like moving the Derange,
> so she plays Clan Impersonation to Lasombra. Now she's a Sabbat Lasombra,
> correct?

Right.

> Now what happens if later on she moves the Derange?
> Is she still a Sabbat Lasombra?

Yes.

> And if she burns the CI, is she an Independent Lasombra again?

No. The only way to undo the Sabbatness is to change clans to
a non-Sabbat clan.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Graaf Tel

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Feb 25, 2003, 8:57:26 AM2/25/03
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<Z$ZjzJ9bc...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...

> In message <7ly6a.11811$Tz6.6...@twister.austin.rr.com>, The Bard of
> Crete <tlo...@satx.rr.com> writes:
> >Changing Sect does not change Clan, but
> >Changing Clan does change Sect.
> >
> >Do I have that strait?
>
> Yes.

> Bear in mind that it must be a clan *change*. So being Lucita and CI-
> ing to Lasombra means that you're an Independent Lasombra. (She didn't
> *change* clan.)

So CI-ing Lucita to another clan and then burning the CI makes her Sabbat ?

Graaf Tel

LSJ

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Feb 25, 2003, 9:08:45 AM2/25/03
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Graaf Tel wrote:
> So CI-ing Lucita to another clan and then burning the CI makes her Sabbat ?

Yes. If any vampire changes clans to become Lasombra (e.g., Lucita burns the
CI above), that vampire becomes Sabbat (since the default clan for Lasombra
is Sabbat).

See section 10.

Oortje4ever

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Mar 24, 2003, 9:41:46 PM3/24/03
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E5B78ED...@white-wolf.com>...

> Graaf Tel wrote:
> > So CI-ing Lucita to another clan and then burning the CI makes her Sabbat ?
>
> Yes. If any vampire changes clans to become Lasombra (e.g., Lucita burns the
> CI above), that vampire becomes Sabbat (since the default clan for Lasombra
> is Sabbat).
>
> See section 10.

Eeh hi again.
I wrote the original post.

Thanks for all the comments.
But....
I understand the each clan has a default sect. right?
In anarch's white-wolf will releas new gangrels if I guess correctly,
sinse there were none released in Camarilla Edition. But in the
roleplaying Gangrels have become independent. Now what?
1. we dont have this discussion and wait for the rulessuplement to
come.
2. all new made Gangels will become independant, since it is the last
released. (and only if the new gangrels are per default indepandent)
3. or we stay with there original sect default: camarilla.

Jeroen van Oort

James Coupe

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Mar 24, 2003, 9:55:17 PM3/24/03
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Oortje4ever <oortj...@hotmail.com> writes:
>In anarch's white-wolf will releas new gangrels if I guess correctly,
>sinse there were none released in Camarilla Edition. But in the
>roleplaying Gangrels have become independent. Now what?
>1. we dont have this discussion and wait for the rulessuplement to
>come.

This one.

(Though it's possible that it might come up in the Preview - like the
'new mechanic' stuff from Bloodlines.)

Mark

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Mar 26, 2003, 1:11:28 PM3/26/03
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One more goofy changing clans question. If Anneke CIs to Ventrue, is
she then the ventrue justicar?

LSJ

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Mar 26, 2003, 1:16:20 PM3/26/03
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Mark wrote:
> One more goofy changing clans question. If Anneke CIs to Ventrue, is
> she then the ventrue justicar?

No.

Halcyan 2

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Mar 26, 2003, 1:20:31 PM3/26/03
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>One more goofy changing clans question. If Anneke CIs to Ventrue, is
>she then the ventrue justicar?


No. The Justicar title is currently the only title in the game that is both
sect-specific and clan-specific. The title is "Toreador Justicar" not just
"Justicar." Thus a Toreador "Primogen," "Prince," or "IC" member (none of which
are clan-specific) would retain that title if CI'ing to Ventrue. But Toreador
Justicar requires you to be a Camarilla Toreador so you lose the title when
you're a Ventrue. You can instead call a Ventrue Justicar vote but that is a
distinct title from Toreador Justicar.

Halcyan 2

James Coupe

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Mar 26, 2003, 1:36:07 PM3/26/03
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<mas...@nyu.edu> writes:
>f Anneke CIs to Ventrue, is
>she then the ventrue justicar?

No. [10.1]

You're not just a Justicar. You're <clan> Justicar.

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