[Newsletter] Followers of Set, May 2004
Wes
FOLLOWERS OF SET NEWSLETTER
Volume 3, Issue 14
May 2004
Author: Andrew 'Wes' Weston
==========================================================
For this issue I decided to skip the normal format for my newsletters.
Instead, I have analyzed and rated each of the archetypes in the game
according to their utility. It may be too early to tell how good a lot
of the new archetypes are, but I offer you my initial assessments on
each. Feel free to disagree with me.
I would also like to thank Daniel Silva for the supplemental Followers
of Set newsletter this month, for which he did a fine job. I hope that
we will see more from Daniel. I have it on good authority that Lord
Sutekh is pleased with your works, young Daniel. Keep it up!
As for myself, I've managed to put out one newsletter a month fairly
consistently lately, so I didn't want to skip out on May. Although I've
left mine for rather late in the month, I hope you will enjoy it just
the same.
==========================================================
BRAVO
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire
successfully performs an action to enter combat with another, he or she
gains 1 blood from the blood bank when the combat ends, if he or she is
still ready. A vampire can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Rush decks are a common deck-type, so this card should in theory see a
lot of play. However, rush decks do not typically have space for many
masters, and what space they have is reserved for more essential cards.
Also, rush decks are less likely to need the blood gained, since most
will be using Taste of Vitae to greater effect. So, although Bravo is
not asolutely useless, its likely to be overlooked for more useful cards
such as Tension in the Ranks, Fame, Haven Uncovered etc.
Additionally, Perfectionist, another archetype, can approximate the
benefits of Bravo but is much more versatile. Both will gain you blood
after a successful Bum's Rush for example, but Perfectionist also gains
you a blood after hunting, rescuing a vampire, etc (assuming conditions
are met).
Rating --> C+
==========================================================
CAPITALIST
[BH:C]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when this
vampire successfully bleeds his or her prey, he or she gains 1 blood
from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Most vampires will bleed at some point in a game, and in many decks
bleeding is all they will do. Capitalist turns a bleed into a bleed plus
a hunt, which in turn could be used for pool gain via a Blood Doll. This
makes Capitalist a very versatile card.
Unfortunately, Captialist is limited only to Sabbat vampires, which
limits its use considerably. It is possible to make vampires Sabbat via
Into the Fire or more difficult options, but that's probably too much
work just to get Capitalist on a vampire.
It would have been nice to see this card limited to non-Camarilla, as
the Ravnos and Baali would be prime candidates to become capitalists.
Despite it being useful only to Sabbat vampires, it is still a very good
card. A Tzimisce bleed deck idea I shamefully stole from Mesh in
Australia uses this card to good effect.
Rating --> B+
==========================================================
CONNIVER
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a vampire you control. If your prey loses pool when it
is neither your turn nor your prey's turn, you may tap this card to move
1 blood from the blood bank to this vampire. A vampire can have only one
archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
This card isn't terrible, but it seems much more limited compared to the
other archetypes we have to choose from. First of all, Conniver is only
usable when another Methuselah is acting, so it effectively gives
control of the blood gain to them. The card is reactive rather than
proactive, which can make all the difference.
Granted, bleed bounce is fairly common, and the two most common bounce
cards Telepathic Misdirection and Deflection both cost a blood. At best,
you are breaking even, which is not bad, but also not terribly exciting.
What other conditions will make your prey lose pool on someone else's
turn? Not many... Extra damage from some vote cards like Kine Resources
Contested might be applied to your prey, but how often will this happen?
And other Methuselahs will be much less likely to throw damage to your
prey if they see Conniver on your vampire, which defeats the point.
Note that you will only be able to gain this blood once before your turn
starts, because the card is tapped when used.
One way this card might be useful is as a bluff. Even if you don't have
a Deflection in hand, leaving this conniving vampire untapped during
your predator's turn will make him far less likely to bleed you.
Rating --> C+
==========================================================
CREEP SHOW
[BH:C/PN]
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when a
minion opposing this vampire in combat dodges or ends combat as a
strike, this vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can
have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Similar to Bravo, but much more reactive and restricted. Because it is a
trifle, you can put it into play much easier than many other archetypes
in this list.
I see this card as being useful for the various Sabbat combat clans that
cannot prevent or deal with Strike: Combat Ends, such as the Ahrimanes,
Tzimisce and !Gangrel. However, gaining a blood when your victim eludes
you seems a poor compensation for what is essentially a failed combat.
Still, if they're going to get away from you, you might as well get
something for your troubles.
One benefit of this card over others is that it can be used on each
Methuselah's turn, including your own. So using Ahrimanes as an example.
Howler enters combat with your prey's vampire on your turn, gains a
blood when Gilbert Duane runs away by playing a Dodge. Then, on your
prey's turn Howler wakes and blocks Gilbert the sissy sneak-bleeder once
again. Gilbert runs away again, playing a Dodge like the coward he is.
Howler gains another blood. Then on your predator's turn, you block some
other sneak-bleeding scumbag (or try to).
Still, if you're biggest concern is dealing with dodges and combat ends
cards, you're probably better off playing with a different deck type
altogether in my opinion.
Rating --> C-
==========================================================
CURMUDGEON
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control. During your prey's untap phase,
you may choose a minion controlled by your prey. If that minion is
blocked this turn, you may tap this card to move 1 blood from the blood
bank to this vampire. A vampire can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Another reactive archetype, Curmudgeon seems at first to have limited
usefulness. Presumably, if you are playing Curmudgeon, you will also
have some capability of blocking. Since Curmudgeon specifies that the
blocked vampire must belong to your prey, you are also either hoping to
block that vampire yourself using Eagle's Sight or Falcon's Eye, etc or
you are hoping some other Methuselah will be blocking them. In any case,
that's a lot of ifs. Too many, for my taste.
However, while Curmudgeon only works on your prey's vampires, it should
be noted that every game eventually ends up with two Methuselahs, and at
that point your prey will also be your predator. So Curmudgeon makes a
fairly good archetype in the endgame for most wall decks.
One advantage of Curmudgeon is that the vampire with the archetype on it
need not be the blocking vampire. This means that you could use some
other vampire you control as the blocker and use the Curmudgeon vampire
as a Blood Doll. So you could have Nadima with a Rebel archetype and
Mirembe with a Curmudgeon and when Nadima blocks Gilbert Duane (that
sneak-bleeding bastard of a vampire), you can have both Nadima and
Mirembe gain a blood. In fact, you could have one designated blocker and
many other vampires, all Curmudgeons. That's a lot of blood gain.
It is possible that your prey will choose not to take any actions with
the vampire that you name, but this can be used to your advantage. A
prey that is not taking actions is probably also not ousting your
grand-prey or blocking your actions.
Rating --> B
==========================================================
GURU
[BH:C/PM]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when this
vampire calls a referendum and it passes, he or she gains 1 blood from
the blood bank. A vampire can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Most vote decks will use Presence, and thus also use Voter Captivation
for blood gain. In fact, it is rare to see vote decks that don't use
Presence in some capacity. And if you are using Presence, then Guru
doesn't really add much to what is already available. Better to use
Voter Caps instead in most cases.
The fact that this card is also limited to just Sabbat vampires makes it
even less likely to see play. Lasombra are capable voters, and could see
some use from this card. In my own experience however, enough of the
Lasombra voters have Presence, making Guru rather redundant. Other
Sabbat clans could find a use for this card however. Both !Ventrue and
Tzimisce have some good titled vampires without any Presence.
Guru isn't exactly a bad card. Once again however, Perfectionist does
everything that this card does, with less restrictions.
Rating --> C+
==========================================================
LONER
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a vampire you control. During your influence phase, if
this vampire successfully performed an action this turn and none of your
other minions attempted any actions this turn, he or she gains 1 blood
from the blood bank, if he or she is ready. A vampire can have only one
archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
This is a difficult archetype to judge. Most decks would not use only
one vampire, except perhaps for the various multi-rush decks. But
multi-rush decks suffer from the same lack of master-space described
under Bravo (see above).
Another deck-type that comes to mind are the various "turbo" decks,
which recycle the same vampire over and over, generally using Soul Gem.
But in this case, Loner does nothing as the vampire would be a different
copy from the one that took the action, therefore not meeting the
conditions for Loner.
There may be decks that can be built around Loner, but I'm just not
seeing many at this point.
Rating --> D
==========================================================
PERFECTIONIST
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire
sucessfully performs an action and no reaction cards are played, he or
she gains 1 blood after the action is resolved. A vampire can have only
one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Ah, Perfectionist. How do I love thee? Let me count the ways...
This card seems the best of the various archetypes to me. It has no sect
requirement, making it easy to play. It's effect takes place during any
action of any type, so long as the other conditions are met. This makes
it effectively superior to cards like Bravo, Capitalist or Guru which
specify blood gain only on certain actions.
Basically, any action X becomes X + hunt, so long as nobody interferes.
Since most people do not interfere with hunting, for example, most of
the time you will end up with an extra blood. It is possible that
someone will cycle a Wake with Evening's Freshness to stop you getting
your blood, but this seems unlikely to me. They'd be better off keeping
their wakes for actions that will hurt them.
You can use Perfectionist on a weenie 2-cap vampire with 2 Blood Dolls
for good pool gain. Blood Doll off each turn and then hunt for 2. It's
like a poor man's Hesha Ruhadze.
I can't think of too many decks that won't find some use for a card like
Perfectionist. I think it will be going in most of my decks from now on.
Rating --> A+
==========================================================
REBEL
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire
successfully blocks a titled vampire or a political action, he or she
gains 1 blood from the blood bank (before the resulting combat, if any).
A vampire can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
This card might not be bad in a wall deck. It's fairly reactive though,
counting on someone at the table playing with either titles or votes or
both. Vote decks are common enough that this might not be a bad guess.
And it's rare to see a table without a single titled vampire at the
table, though it has been known to happen.
You could also subtly encourage people to call votes which you then
block. Anarch Revolt is a card that many people will want to vote off
the table. But if you have a vampire sitting there with Rebel on her,
don't be surprised if people refrain from calling that referendum.
Note that this archetype does not require it to be your turn. So you
could conceivably use it once on your prey's turn and once on your
predator's turn. But that's assuming that all conditions are met, which
is unlikely.
Overall, Rebel is about as good as Curmudgeon. Curmudgeon only works for
one vampire, whereas Rebel will be more useful when there are more
titles floating around.
Rating --> B
==========================================================
SOCIOPATH
[BH:C/PTr2]
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when this
vampire remains ready and burns a minion in combat or sends a vampire to
torpor in combat, he or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire
can have only one archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Another combat archetype.
This card seems generally inferior to Bravo and Creep Show, as the
conditions are more strict. Instead of simply entering combat or by
being dodged, this card requires you to actually burn or torpor a
minion, which is not always the easiest thing to do.
Additionally, since Sociopath requires the vampire to be Sabbat only,
this card will be even harder to play. Maybe Beast could use it. He
certainly looks sociopathic. In general though, combat decks would be
better off using Taste of Vitae for blood gain. Or Bravo if they
absolutely insist on using an archetype.
Rating --> D-
==========================================================
TRADITIONALIST
[Gehenna:C]
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire
casts his or her votes against a referendum and the referendum fails, he
or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one
archetype.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Most Methuselahs that play vote decks have some kind of mechanism that
helps them pass referendums. Some use Awe or Bewitching Oration, or
Animal Magnetism, or simply rely on having more titled vampires in play
than anyone else could compete with.
Reacting to votes is much more problematic. Cards like Dread Gaze see
less play, since it is assumed that the acting vampire will have more
control over pro-votes than anyone else has over anti-votes. It is more
likely to see cards like Delaying Tactics, which simply cancel the
referendum altogether.
Fortunately, Traditionalist can be used with Delaying Tactics, assuming
the traditional vampire threw his votes against the referendum before
the Delaying Tactics was played. This will offset the cost of playing
the Delaying Tactics. You don't really require a serious voter for this
tactic. A simple Bishop or Primogen will suffice.
Overall, however, Traditionalist is a difficult card to use as it relies
on other people calling votes. You could conceivably try to fail your
own votes in order to get the blood, but that would be rather stupid.
Easier to just hunt.
Rating --> C-
==========================================================
So, my ratings for the archetypes, from best to worst are as follows:
PERFECTIONIST Rating --> A+
CAPITALIST Rating --> B+
CURMUDGEON Rating --> B
REBEL Rating --> B
BRAVO Rating --> C+
CONNIVER Rating --> C+
GURU Rating --> C+
CREEP SHOW Rating --> C-
TRADITIONALIST Rating --> C-
LONER Rating --> D
SOCIOPATH Rating --> D-
Note that none of the cards actually got a failing mark. All cards have
a use somehow, even the most useless cards like Eyes of the Dead.
==========================================================
SIGN-OFF
I hope you enjoyed this month's newsletter. I always look forward to
hearing from my reader(s) so feel free to drop me a line with questions
or comments.
Hail Sutekh!
Cheers,
WES
Keeper of the Grand Temple of Set
Colin McGuigan
> TRADITIONALIST
> [Gehenna:C]
> Master: archetype. Trifle.
> Put this card on a vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire
> casts his or her votes against a referendum and the referendum fails, he
> or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one
> archetype.
>
> the traditional vampire threw his votes against the referendum before
> the Delaying Tactics was played. This will offset the cost of playing
> the Delaying Tactics. You don't really require a serious voter for this
> tactic. A simple Bishop or Primogen will suffice.
Mmm. Don't think so. A cancelled vote doesn't count as failed (eg, for
Elder Kindred Network). See also Advanced Theo Bell's text, which
specifically states failed or cancelled.
--Colin McGuigan
The Lasombra
wrote:
>You can use Perfectionist on a weenie 2-cap vampire with 2 Blood Dolls
>for good pool gain. Blood Doll off each turn and then hunt for 2. It's
>like a poor man's Hesha Ruhadze.
One off-hand reference to a Follower of Set and you want to call it a
Clan Newsletter?
Why bother?
Why not just call it Wes's Review of Archetypes?
What did the Followers of Set gain from this article?
I'm glad you've archived it, because I won't be doing so.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Reyda
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote
What ?
> BRAVO Rating --> C+
> SOCIOPATH Rating --> D-
I don't understand your notation system.
how can you rate Sociopath D- ?
Sociopath vs Bravo -simple exemple : assuming you play !gangrel or Blood
brothers -anything capable of torporizing foes. Since you play combat, you
are capable of torporizing foes, aren't you ?
Bum's Rush, get blocked, torporize the minion. With bravo you gain no blood
(bum's was blocked). With sociopath, you gain one blood.
Bleed, get blocked, torporize the minion. With Sociopath, you gain one
blood.
Block an incoming bleed, or a hunt action from your prey or predator.
Torporize or burn the opposing minion, you gain a blood.
In a good deck, you can gain 3 blood in a row, by rushing, intercepting your
prey, then intercepting your predator. The blood gained can fuel an Eternal
vigilance.
Bravo is just plain crap compared to Sociopath : you don't gain blood if the
rush is blocked (most rush will happen at 0 stealth and usually the meth
will try to protect the target), plus you can't gain blood during your
opponent's turns. The only drawback is that Sociopath is Sabbat only, thus
cannot benefit Eurobrujah. Even like this, i would rather put a Rebel or a
Perfectionnist on Donal than a Bravo.
Wes
"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > BRAVO Rating --> C+
> > SOCIOPATH Rating --> D-
>
> I don't understand your notation system.
> how can you rate Sociopath D- ?
I would say that getting into combat is easier than torping/burning your
opponents.
People may block the rushes to deny a maneuver or whatever, but in my
experience they rarely do. They may be more inclined to do so if the
rushing vampire has a Bravo on it however.
> Sociopath vs Bravo -simple exemple : assuming you play !gangrel or
Blood
> brothers -anything capable of torporizing foes. Since you play combat,
you
> are capable of torporizing foes, aren't you ?
It depends on the deck I suppose. A rush deck fuelled by Clandestine
Contract or Nose of the Hound would probably be better off with Bravo
since they have the added stealth on the rush action. Plus they get the
blood regardless of how the combat goes, whereas with Sociopath you are
relying on a successful torp/burn. Sure, ideally every rush deck wants
to torp/burn their target each action, but things don't always happen as
we plan.
Do you find that a lot of your rushes get blocked? Honestly, I don't see
this much anymore. It used to be that people would block rushes to deny
a maneuver, but nowadays it seems less common. Could be just a local
thing...
Have you had much success with either card?
Cheers,
WES
Wes
"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote
> >
> > Fortunately, Traditionalist can be used with Delaying Tactics,
assuming
> > the traditional vampire threw his votes against the referendum
before
> > the Delaying Tactics was played. This will offset the cost of
playing
> > the Delaying Tactics. You don't really require a serious voter for
this
> > tactic. A simple Bishop or Primogen will suffice.
>
> Mmm. Don't think so. A cancelled vote doesn't count as failed (eg,
for
> Elder Kindred Network). See also Advanced Theo Bell's text, which
> specifically states failed or cancelled.
Hmmm, you may be right. LSJ?
Cheers,
WES
LSJ
>>Mmm. Don't think so. A cancelled vote doesn't count as failed (eg,
> for
>>Elder Kindred Network). See also Advanced Theo Bell's text, which
>>specifically states failed or cancelled.
>
> Hmmm, you may be right. LSJ?
A canceled referendum neither succeeds nor fails.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C9612A9.67F0D816%40white-wolf.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8h0nd6%24dkj%241%40nnrp1.deja.com
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Timlagor
Depends on the combat. Do they reckon you will use the manoeuvre
(depends on both decks)? Do they particularly want to protect the
target? Do they have spare blocks? Bravo will certainly be a
consideration.
I see a significant proportion of rushes blocked. Quite a few more are
seriously considered (so Bravo could tip the balance). Also a lot of
combat is initiated through non-rush actions.
David Cherryholmes
> Why not just call it Wes's Review of Archetypes?
>
> What did the Followers of Set gain from this article?
>
> I'm glad you've archived it, because I won't be doing so.
You are free to selectively archive whatever you wish on your private
site, *of course*. That said, I recall other newsletters with, shall we
say, tenuous connections to their supposed subject matter. I wonder why
you've chosen to draw the editorial sword here and now, when previous
newsletters have sailed under the radar. IMO, Wes has been one of the
steadiest, most solid producers of newsletter material in the game; I'd
think that history might have earned a little bit of respect, but I
guess not.
__
David Cherryholmes
The Lasombra
<david.che...@duke.edu> wrote:
>IMO, Wes has been one of the steadiest, most solid producers
>of newsletter material in the game; I'd think that history might
>have earned a little bit of respect, but I guess not.
You are correct.
I have no respect for naming an article one thing and then never
discussing that thing in the article.
If you have a specific instance of another article on my site that
follows the same problem, I will be happy to remove it.
The last time I tried to deal with this type of issue privately, the
newsletter editor quit. I have no interest in repeating that
experience, and will therefore conduct all of criticisms publicly
where everyone can criticize me in return.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
David Cherryholmes
> If you have a specific instance of another article on my site that
> follows the same problem, I will be happy to remove it.
And get someone else busted? Now I really don't want to look. Yeah, I
could be wrong, too.
> The last time I tried to deal with this type of issue privately, the
> newsletter editor quit. I have no interest in repeating that
> experience, and will therefore conduct all of criticisms publicly
> where everyone can criticize me in return.
Certainly useful information to provide, since I was also wondering why
you wouldn't just handle it over private email in the first place. I
wonder if this approach will work any better? Probably not, but the
problem might lie in the difficulty of criticizing someone who is
basically doing a thankless job (which I'm sure you can relate to).
__
David Cherryholmes
The Lasombra
<david.che...@duke.edu> wrote:
>I wonder if this approach will work any better?
Wes hasn't quit in spite of all the shit I have thrown his way over
the years. I don't expect he will be heartbroken this particular
article didn't make it on my site.
>Probably not, but the problem might lie in the difficulty of criticizing
>someone who is basically doing a thankless job.
He had responses to his article that indicate the respondents were
interested and intrigued by what he had to say. That is more than
many theory posts can truly claim. This would seem to indicate that
his time was well spent, and those people reading and responding to
him will enjoy their discussion. I don't believe it will convince
anyone to give the Followers of Set and archetypes a try. If it does,
it will be in spite of article, rather than because of it.
Daneel
> Have you had much success with either card?
>
> Cheers,
> WES
Well, I had success with Sociopath, but in a blocky-brawny deck. It is
really useful when my vamps run low on blood and I am able to gain a
blood after each burned/toprorized minion. It helps keeping my guy(s)
from going down. I actually used Sociopath with Creep Show (the latter
on my scary vampire, the former on my strong vampire). I was content
with both of them.
In a (D) rush deck I'd probably use Bravo though (if anything at all).
The reason is that for me (D) Rush is basically Assamite CEL-QUI (the
only deck which inspires me to actually play rush - I'm not a big fan
of weenie POT), and they (i) cannot really use Sociopath, but (ii)
have Provisions of Silsila instead. Plus, in a celerity-using (D) rush
deck I always find the number of masters to be the part of the budget
which I must cut back on. Even without Infernal Pursuit you may end up
getting a Master jam with 14-15 Master cards. If you want to avoid
that, you will think thrice before putting Bravo in a deck that can
have stuff like Fame, Tension in the Ranks, Path of Blood, Blood Doll
and Contract. Not to mention Path of Lilith, Carver's Meat Packing and
Storage or Leadership Vacuum.
Where I see Bravo as a real boon is vampires with innate Rush
capability.
Bye,
Daneel
Curevei
I totally understand Jeff's take on this. It's so easy to call something that
doesn't seem to have any clan newsletteressness something else and have someone
archive *that* for its usefulness to people than to archive something as a clan
newsletter that has nothing to do with the clan.
The respect would be best shown, maybe, by having Wes rename the article and
archive it along with other articles he has done and let him put together a
follow up newsletter connecting archetypes to FoS or waiting until his next
"normal" newsletter.
As to being thankless, one assumes the editors get something out of publishing
the newsletters or they wouldn't do it in the first place.