LSJ: Illusions of Jimmy

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asdf

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Nov 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/9/99
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Q1: I bleed with Tereza Rostas, my prey blocks with Jimmy Dunn. Tereza,
trickster that she is, plays Illusions of the Kindred. Combat ends and
starts anew for Jimmy and the bottom vampire of my crypt - who also
happens to be Jimmy.

Illusions of the Kindred says this new copy of Jimmy does not contest any
other copies in play. However, the first Jimmy, seeing a new Jimmy, burns
himself. This of course ends combat, at which point the second Jimmy is
removed from the game.

Is this reasoning correct?

Q2: Illusions of Kindred says that the Illusory vampire is removed from
the game at the end of combat. But what if there is no combat? For
instance, Tsigane enters combat with Tereza Rostas. Tsigane plays
Illusions of Kindred, ending combat and putting Tereza in combat with,
say, Samantha. In this new combat, Tereza plays her own Illusions of
Kindred, with Daliyah being on the bottom of the crypt.

So Daliyah should be fighting Samantha, but when Tereza's Illusions of the
Kindred ends combat, Samantha leaves the game. Does Daliyah still make
her appearance? Does she immediately leave because of some rule I'm
missing, or does she wait around indefinately for the end of a combat that
never began?

-davey!

ps: it says "Rotas" on Rulemonger, but isn't it supposed to be "Rostas"?


corr...@my-deja.com

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Nov 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/9/99
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In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911091350250.28234-
100...@harper.uchicago.edu>,

asdf <dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Q1: I bleed with Tereza Rostas, my prey blocks with Jimmy Dunn.
Tereza,
> trickster that she is, plays Illusions of the Kindred. Combat ends
and
> starts a new for Jimmy and the bottom vampire of my crypt - who also

> happens to be Jimmy.
>
> Illusions of the Kindred says this new copy of Jimmy does not contest
any
> other copies in play. However, the first Jimmy, seeing a new Jimmy,
burns
> himself. This of course ends combat, at which point the second Jimmy
is
> removed from the game.
>
> Is this reasoning correct?

Yes, is correct because if the card says " does not contest any copy in
play" the card have the reason, see in the rulebook in the golden rules.

> Q2: Illusions of Kindred says that the Illusory vampire is removed
>from the game at the end of combat.

Yes,that says the card

> But what if there is no combat?

Don't play the card 

>For instance, Tsigane enters combat with Tereza Rostas. Tsigane plays
> Illusions of Kindred, ending combat and putting Tereza in combat with,
> say, Samantha. In this new combat, Tereza plays her own Illusions of
> Kindred, with Daliyah being on the bottom of the crypt.
>
> So Daliyah should be fighting Samantha, but when Tereza's Illusions
>of the
> Kindred ends combat, Samantha leaves the game. Does Daliyah still
>make
> her appearance? Does she immediately leave because of some rule I'm
> missing, or does she wait around indefinately for the end of a combat
>that never began?
>
> -davey!

She does wait the round indefinately for the rest of the combat until
the combat end .

> ps: it says "Rotas" on Rulemonger, but isn't it supposed to
be "Rostas"?
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

LSJ

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Nov 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/10/99
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asdf wrote:
>
> Q1: I bleed with Tereza Rostas, my prey blocks with Jimmy Dunn. Tereza,
> trickster that she is, plays Illusions of the Kindred. Combat ends and
> starts anew for Jimmy and the bottom vampire of my crypt - who also

> happens to be Jimmy.
>
> Illusions of the Kindred says this new copy of Jimmy does not contest any
> other copies in play. However, the first Jimmy, seeing a new Jimmy, burns
> himself. This of course ends combat, at which point the second Jimmy is
> removed from the game.
>
> Is this reasoning correct?

No. Jimmy would burn himself "instead of contesting". Since you wouldn't be
contesting him in this case, he doesn't burn himself.

> Q2: Illusions of Kindred says that the Illusory vampire is removed from

> the game at the end of combat. But what if there is no combat? For

Then burn him at the end of the action. (cf "Do not replace until after
combat" and "no combat" rulings.)

> instance, Tsigane enters combat with Tereza Rostas. Tsigane plays
> Illusions of Kindred, ending combat and putting Tereza in combat with,
> say, Samantha. In this new combat, Tereza plays her own Illusions of
> Kindred, with Daliyah being on the bottom of the crypt.
>
> So Daliyah should be fighting Samantha, but when Tereza's Illusions of the
> Kindred ends combat, Samantha leaves the game. Does Daliyah still make
> her appearance? Does she immediately leave because of some rule I'm
> missing, or does she wait around indefinately for the end of a combat that
> never began?

She hangs around until the end of the action.

> ps: it says "Rotas" on Rulemonger, but isn't it supposed to be "Rostas"?

Rulemonger card text comes from WotC spoiler lists.
I'll verify the actual card tonight. Thanks for the catch.

--
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

GP41

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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Hello all!

This is a first time for me, with a couple of question in mind.

Q-1.
Is there a techncal difference between, "play before range is
determined" and "play before range is chosen"? (That question seems
pretty dumb in itself, but since my english has some lacking, i would
prefer to have it cleared up right away.)

Q-2.
How can we play cards in that matter or what happen, if the acting
methuselah plays a maneuver card, while the reacting wanna play a "play
before..." card?

Q-3.
Why should a methuselah who only controls sabbat vampires, be affected
by Sabbat Treat? And why can't the same methuselah play sabbat treat
since it required only prince or justicar to call the vote?

For me, it will make sense that he could treat other people with it.
It's simply a Sabbat matter!

GP41

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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I am looking for V:tes player, in the Montreal area.

Email me at:
GP...@videotron.ca
object: V:tes in Montreal!

LSJ

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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GP41 wrote:
> Q-1.
> Is there a techncal difference between, "play before range is
> determined" and "play before range is chosen"? (That question seems
> pretty dumb in itself, but since my english has some lacking, i would
> prefer to have it cleared up right away.)

No difference. Both are to be played before either minion begins
choosing to maneuver or not.

> Q-2.
> How can we play cards in that matter or what happen, if the acting
> methuselah plays a maneuver card, while the reacting wanna play a "play
> before..." card?

Before either minion can begin maneuvering, either minion can play
"before range" cards. Normally, this is accomplished by the acting
Methuselah playing/using any "before range" effects that she wants
and then saying "I have nothing else before range" (to allow the
blocking/defending Methuselah the opportunity to play a "before
range" effect).

> Q-3.
> Why should a methuselah who only controls sabbat vampires, be affected
> by Sabbat Treat? And why can't the same methuselah play sabbat treat
> since it required only prince or justicar to call the vote?
>
> For me, it will make sense that he could treat other people with it.
> It's simply a Sabbat matter!

Just card text, that's all.

You may view it as a Prince or Justicar merely engaging in a smear
campaign (propaganda) - trying to convince the Camarilla community that
such-and-such a Methuselah (actually, some entity or group under that
Methuselah's control) poses a threat to the Camarilla society.
So actually, the stronger that Methuselah's ties to the Sabbat, the
more likely it is that such a propaganda campaign would be successful.

But that's just flavor and back-story.

James Coupe

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, GP41 wrote:

> Q-1.
> Is there a techncal difference between, "play before range is
> determined" and "play before range is chosen"? (That question seems
> pretty dumb in itself, but since my english has some lacking, i would
> prefer to have it cleared up right away.)

They are the same thing.

>
> Q-2.
> How can we play cards in that matter or what happen, if the acting
> methuselah plays a maneuver card, while the reacting wanna play a "play
> before..." card?
>

Then you step back to the "Play before" bit.

What can be useful is to play as follows:

Two Methuselahs, Fred and Bill, go into combat with each other. A third
Methuselah, John, is sitting by.

John says: Anything before range is determined?
Fred (as acting Methuselah) says: No.
Bill says: No
John: Any range cards?
Fred says: No, stay at close.
Bill says: Here's a Quick Meld to go to long. (inferior only)
Fred says: Here's a Flash to come to close.
Bill says: Okay, stay at close then.
John: Anything after range and before strikes?

And carry on like that. That way, everyone gets a chance to play their
cards at the right time. sometimes, if you have to 'back up' to a
previous step, it can give a player a bit of an advantage. If I hurry
straight to strikes and say "Here's my Coma strike", you can then say,
"Oh, you rushed me... I wanted to maneuver!" Taking it through,
announcing all the big phases in combat means that that doesn't happen.

> Q-3.
> Why should a methuselah who only controls sabbat vampires, be affected
> by Sabbat Treat?

Because the cards say so and Jyhad is a card game.

It's just a weird quirk. If you want a reason, pretend that the Sabbat
vampires are just being really violent and so not just causing problems
for the Camarilla, but also for him. Or maybe it's some Sabbat vampires
he doesn't control doing it?

> And why can't the same methuselah play sabbat treat
> since it required only prince or justicar to call the vote?
>

Again, it's just what the cards say. Not everything fits with real life.
I mean, why does a Sewer Lid do three damage, and a Car only does 4?
Surely a car hurts lots more than a Sewer Lid?



> For me, it will make sense that he could treat other people with it.
> It's simply a Sabbat matter!

And Jyhad is simply a card game, which got created bit by bit. When Jyhad
was created, they didn't know about the Sabbat expansion which was several
years away, so the cards are written the way they are.

--

James Coupe

Justin Fang

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Nov 12, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/12/99
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In article <38297475...@wizards.com>, LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote:

>asdf wrote:
>> instance, Tsigane enters combat with Tereza Rostas. Tsigane plays
>> Illusions of Kindred, ending combat and putting Tereza in combat with,
>> say, Samantha. In this new combat, Tereza plays her own Illusions of
>> Kindred, with Daliyah being on the bottom of the crypt.
>>
>> So Daliyah should be fighting Samantha, but when Tereza's Illusions of the
>> Kindred ends combat, Samantha leaves the game. Does Daliyah still make
>> her appearance? Does she immediately leave because of some rule I'm
>> missing, or does she wait around indefinately for the end of a combat that
>> never began?

>She hangs around until the end of the action.

So, could Daliyah play reactions and/or block (assuming Tsigane was the acting
minion)? Could she play action modifiers like Hidden Lurker or Cloak the
Gathering (assuming Tereza was the acting minion)?


Philippe Richer

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Nov 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/13/99
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Good luck.

Depending on whether or not you can pass as a college student, try the
Vieux-Dragon, the RPG club at the Cégep du Vieux-Montréal (corner of Sanguinet
and Ontario).

There are a few players there amongst the regulars. I haven't played a real
game in Montréal in years (actually had to go to England for it), but they
started playing again this year. Just wish I didn't work every week day or
else I'd be playing with 'em. Oh yeah, last time I saw them, they were looking
for Sport Bikes. Bring some if you can spare 'em.

If anyone knows of another playgroup in Montréal, please announce it on the
newsgroup. Those are rare and very good things to find in MagicLand.

Bleu

Frederick Scott

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Nov 13, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/13/99
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James Coupe <jr...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:

>Again, it's just what the cards say. Not everything fits with real life.
>I mean, why does a Sewer Lid do three damage, and a Car only does 4?

Probably because your average buffed-up vamp can get a lot more velocity
on a sewer lid then a car. Depends on whether you're talking sports
car or SUV, of course.

Cliff Clavin

LSJ

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Nov 15, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/15/99
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Justin Fang wrote:
>
> In article <38297475...@wizards.com>, LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote:
> >asdf wrote:
> >> instance, Tsigane enters combat with Tereza Rostas. Tsigane plays
> >> Illusions of Kindred, ending combat and putting Tereza in combat with,
> >> say, Samantha. In this new combat, Tereza plays her own Illusions of
> >> Kindred, with Daliyah being on the bottom of the crypt.
> >>
> >> So Daliyah should be fighting Samantha, but when Tereza's Illusions of the
> >> Kindred ends combat, Samantha leaves the game. Does Daliyah still make
> >> her appearance? Does she immediately leave because of some rule I'm
> >> missing, or does she wait around indefinately for the end of a combat that
> >> never began?
>
> >She hangs around until the end of the action.
>
> So, could Daliyah play reactions and/or block (assuming Tsigane was the acting
> minion)?

She could play reaction cards (not that I can think of any that would be
particularly useful for her in the last moments of the action described above).

She couldn't block, since the action isn't in a blockable state (it is
past the blocking stage, and is not being continued as if unblocked).

> Could she play action modifiers like Hidden Lurker or Cloak the
> Gathering (assuming Tereza was the acting minion)?

Hidden Lurker could not be played, since HL must be played after
Tereza's combat with the Blocking minion. Tereza's last combat was with
a non-blocking minion (who is no longer ready, to boot).

Cloak could not be played since, again, the action is past the blocking
stage.

--
She can do anything a normal minion could do at that stage in the action.
For the action described above, there isn't much anyone can do at that
time, though.

GP41

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Nov 16, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/16/99
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Here i am again with my "before maneuver is chosen or determined
question".

So if i understand it correctly, the acting player plays his cards
first, and the blocking plays his cards, right?

1- Can the acting player play other cards (or tap Elysium: The
Arboretum) in response to cards played by the blocking player during the
same phase?

2- What happens if the acting player plays cards (i.e. Fist of death and
Drawing out the beast), and then the blocking players plays a Illusion
of the kindred (combat end, and start combat with the new (illusionary)
vampire)? Will the effects from cards played by the acting player
dissipate, or will they still be functionnal?

LSJ

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Nov 17, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/17/99
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GP41 wrote:
>
> Here i am again with my "before maneuver is chosen or determined
> question".
>
> So if i understand it correctly, the acting player plays his cards
> first, and the blocking plays his cards, right?
>
> 1- Can the acting player play other cards (or tap Elysium: The
> Arboretum) in response to cards played by the blocking player during the
> same phase?

Not "in response" in the sense of that other game's "stack", but yes.
After the blocking player plays a card (or other effect), the acting
player again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.

> 2- What happens if the acting player plays cards (i.e. Fist of death and
> Drawing out the beast), and then the blocking players plays a Illusion
> of the kindred (combat end, and start combat with the new (illusionary)
> vampire)? Will the effects from cards played by the acting player
> dissipate, or will they still be functionnal?

All of the "for this combat" effects will end when the combat ends.
(And Illusions of the Kindred ends combat before starting another).

GP41

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Nov 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/20/99
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> > 2- What happens if the acting player plays cards (i.e. Fist of death and
> > Drawing out the beast), and then the blocking players plays a Illusion
> > of the kindred (combat end, and start combat with the new (illusionary)
> > vampire)? Will the effects from cards played by the acting player
> > dissipate, or will they still be functionnal?
>
> All of the "for this combat" effects will end when the combat ends.
> (And Illusions of the Kindred ends combat before starting another).

3- And the same for cards saying "the opposing vampire"? Because it
is totally an other vampire.

4- And if a Vial of Garou blood is burned before a Drawing out the Beast
is played, will it still be effective for the current combat (since DotB
specify that the opposing vampire cannot be use equipment)?

James Coupe

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Nov 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/20/99
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On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, GP41 wrote:

> 3- And the same for cards saying "the opposing vampire"? Because it
> is totally an other vampire.
>

They only last for that combat, one would assume. When combat ends, they
would end with it, and not carry over into the new combat. (If you have
any specific weird examples, then that might not happen. However, if a
card you play as a combat card prior to IotK affects the opposing vampire,
it only does so for the duration of the round (the default for combat
cards) or the combat (sometimes stated). When IotK is played, combat ends,
so the effect ends.

> 4- And if a Vial of Garou blood is burned before a Drawing out the Beast
> is played, will it still be effective for the current combat (since DotB
> specify that the opposing vampire cannot be use equipment)?

The vampire has already used the Vial of Garou Blood, so can quite happily
benefit from its effects. IT could not, however, burn the Vial *after*
the DotB had been played, since that would then be using it.

--

James Coupe

LSJ

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Nov 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/22/99
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Correct on both.

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