New Cards
Gary S Cerefice
Anyone have the spoilers on the new cards released in V:TES?
Thanks,
Gary
Martin Engelhardt
: Hello all,
: Anyone have the spoilers on the new cards released in V:TES?
Hi Gary,
I saw one of the new cards at the Spiel 95 in Essen on Thursday.
It is an out of turn Master, costs 3 Pool and has the following
effect:
If you are bled for three or more (or more than three, don't
remember), you may play Archon Investigation (cards name, of
course). This will burn the bleeding Vampire.
BTW, the new cards look great. Every type of card now has a different
Background, they still have black borders, but now there is a thin
ca. 1 mm red line between the border an the background. Oh, and the
background of the reaction cards is IMO the best looking. It is not
white, as some might have feared, it looks like a shattered window.
Before anyone askes: the cards were from a test run, they are not
available yet. The WoTC rep sait that the unlimited version would hit
the stores in mid-november, with the DS expansion following three
weeks later. Let's wait and see (and hope).
Happy bleeding,
Martin
--
Martin Engelhardt mer...@fim1.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
GB/GCS d? p+ c++++(++) l u+ e++/* m+(-) s /+ !n h f++ !g w- t++ r++ y@
TONY RICARDI
Pentium Laptop equipment 2 pool
+1.999999999873415 bleed
THC Laced Blood Master out-of-turn
(Picture; a spaced-out guy smoking a joint, Duck sneaking up behind him)
Play when a vampire successfully hunts. The vampire immediatly untaps
and attempts to bleed a random Methuselah. On subsequent turns, the
vampire must hunt until she is at full capacity. (Munchies!)
Overeaters Anonymous Master - Unique Location 2 pool
(Picture; a stream of really, *really* fat people walking out of a
building. Igo- the Hungry lurks in an alley nearby with a huge grin...)
All your vampires gain +1 blood when hunting. Any vampire can burn
Overeaters Anonymous as a (D) action, gaining 1 blood if successful.
Abstract art painting unique equipment 1 pool
(Picture; Uriah Winter holding a bizzare painting in front of him,
hiding behind it. Anneke is staring at it raptly, an assault rifle
lying at her feet.)
Bearer may strike; combat ends if in combat with a Toreador. If so, the
Toreador gains possession of the Painting.
The Count Malkavian 6 capacity
FOR DOM PRE tha
2... 2... 2 wonderful hand damage! Haa haa haa...
Pizza Shift Political action Prince/Justicar
Select a Methuselah who has more pizza than you. Divide up to # slices
among the Methuselahs as you see fit. # is the number of Methuselahs
currently in the game. Successful vote means the pizza is apportioned
as you announced.
Ewok
: This had better be a bad joke . Whats the point of pulse of the
: Canaille or Conditioning if theyre gonna be a suicide attempt . Try a big
: bleed and either your predator or prey is gonna toast one of youre vamps .
: Everyone is gonna stock up on these , and real fast youre gonna see malk
: and ventrue bleed decks disappear . SO what are they gonna do - limit a
: deck to 2 cards of these ? Just what we need - more cards that are gonna
: be unbalancing enough to require a fix . (and i hate limits especially low ones
I wonder if the card only works if the user accepts the bleed first. If so, it
isn't as powerful, they still have to lose at least six pool. It might force
the heavy bleed deck to save up cards for a big bleed (although that is
difficult given the restriction on conditioning/bonding/threats). But I agree
that people would probably still use it, and it's gonna suck. Losing a vampire
can be a mortal blow to a deck.
Ewok
--
//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\
/ Ewok Juan Burwell \
\ jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu jmbu...@amherst.edu /
\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\//
Martin Mauve, ^0000^ Der kleine Martin aus der Fachschaft!
I can confirm what Martin has posted. I was with him in Essen
and saw this card!
Martin Mauve
(... I won't bleed no more ...)
Thomas R Wylie
Martin Jamieson <mm32...@minmet.uq.oz.au> wrote:
>Either way its an out of turn master so anyone could use it (including
>the people not being bled), a 3 pool burn by two methusalahs isn't too
>much to pay to get rid of a nasty justicar or something. Then there's the
>problem of the new 11 blood inner circle members they are bringing in
>with dark soveriegns, a base bleed of 3...... why bother if you can't
>bleed with them anyway...
First, Archon Investigation can only be played if you are the one being
bleed. Second, the minion has to be attempting a bleed in excess of 3
to use AI, not of 3, so the Inner Circle members can bleed normally
without fear of it. Third, AI doesn't make the Inner Circle members'
bleeds obselete any more than it makes superior Conditioning obsolete.
If you're totally paranoid about AI, then you never bleed for more than 3,
but if you take a chance occasionally, or catch someone when they've already
burned their next master phase action, then you should be fine.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Mr JA Chapman
: bleed. Second, the minion has to be attempting a bleed in excess of 3
: to use AI, not of 3, so the Inner Circle members can bleed normally
: without fear of it. Third, AI doesn't make the Inner Circle members'
: bleeds obselete any more than it makes superior Conditioning obsolete.
: If you're totally paranoid about AI, then you never bleed for more than 3,
: but if you take a chance occasionally, or catch someone when they've already
: burned their next master phase action, then you should be fine.
:
:
: Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
This means that the inner circle vamps cant use ANY bleed modifier
though . Eg the Tremere IC member cant safely use bonding to bleed at even
a fairly mediocre level of stealth . And god help poor ozmo if he gets given
a pulse of the canaille - a sure sign of a death wish . Your argument about
using it when the master phase has been burned doesnt work either . This is
because either your predator OR your prey is likely to want to take the
opportunity to toast even a moderately good vamp . How often are BOTH of them
going to be without their next master phase ? Hint guys , cut it back to
something like putting bleeder into torpor . Or maybe make the minimum bleed
something higher - even 4 or 5 would be MUCH more reasonable .Instant death
for this sort of paltry bleed is ridiculous . And YOU CANT EVEN SUDDEN
REVERSAL IT AS IT IS ON YOUR OWN TURN .
This seems to be a spoiler to big bleed (esp S&B decks) . In
environments without harsh card limits these decks are good but there are
many ways to beat them - bounce , rush ,intercept . This cuts many types
of bleed decks severely and unjustly . Whats gonna be next , a card which
burns vamps with too many votes (damn , wish i hadnt played that Bewitching
oration with Democritus) or gets a free burn of a vamp that does too much
damage or aggro damage in combat (oops Rake shouldnt have blurred , now the
archons are coming to get him) . This card spells the end of bleed decks
using large vamps . Expect to see more weenie - mid sized bleed decks where
the 3 pool just isnt worth it . Boy does Lucian feel like wallpaper now .
anyone wanna buy a malk deck
going cheap
JA Chapman
Martin Jamieson
> This means that the inner circle vamps cant use ANY bleed modifier
>though . Eg the Tremere IC member cant safely use bonding to bleed at even
>a fairly mediocre level of stealth . And god help poor ozmo if he gets given
>a pulse of the canaille - a sure sign of a death wish . Your argument about
>using it when the master phase has been burned doesnt work either . This is
>because either your predator OR your prey is likely to want to take the
>opportunity to toast even a moderately good vamp . How often are BOTH of them
>going to be without their next master phase
If you read the beginning of what Tom said you'd notice that he said only
the person being bled can use Archon Investigation. This was one thing
that was a bit unclear before and certainly does make it a little fairer.
Its still going to be a real pain in the ass though (especially since its
only uncommon, ie. not that hard to get a few of them).
Martin.
Biomech8
greatly appreciate it if anyone who knows of the exact wording of the new
additions (those cards not printed in Jyhad, including any wording changes
from Jyhad cards to V:TES) would post them on the news group. And if
anyone is selling V:TES singles yet please e-mail me. I would also like
to know what the artwork is like as well (though I know this is harder to
post than wordings, a description would be nice). Thanks in advance.
~Biomechanoid
CurtAdams
>I've started putting either Owl Companion or Aura Reading in my Agg. Dam.
>decks because I'm starting to see Rotschreck all the time, and I can use
>these cards to avoid it. Maybe Archon Investigation will put 2-3 Aura
Readings
>into the Malk decks. I'd say making a non-exciting card more useful is
an
>added bonus for AI besides just hosing those twisted S&B decks.
?!
Aura Reading is a fantastic card for any deck with Auspex which gets into
combat on a regular basis. You can use it to see what you're up against,
or cycle your hand and increase your options for the combat. Plus you can
always play it - it's never a hand jammer.
Thomas R Wylie
Mr JA Chapman <jac...@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>: First, Archon Investigation can only be played if you are the one being
>: bleed. Second, the minion has to be attempting a bleed in excess of 3
>: to use AI, not of 3, so the Inner Circle members can bleed normally
>: without fear of it. Third, AI doesn't make the Inner Circle members'
>: bleeds obselete any more than it makes superior Conditioning obsolete.
>though . Eg the Tremere IC member cant safely use bonding to bleed at even
>a fairly mediocre level of stealth .
Saying that the IC members with Dominate can never use bleed modifiers safely
because of Archon Investigation is like saying a vampire without Fortitude can
never engage a Gangrel in combat safely because of Protean. Yes, you will
get hosed sometimes, but you'll be fine at other times. You have to look
at the situation and decide what the risk is. People are not going to be
loading up their decks with Archon Investigation, because it only helps
in a relatively limited situation, so big bleeders will be ok much of the time.
>...Your argument about
>using it when the master phase has been burned doesnt work either . This is
>because either your predator OR your prey is likely to want to take the
>opportunity to toast even a moderately good vamp . How often are BOTH of them
>going to be without their next master phase ?...
Reread the first part of what I posted: Archon Investigation can only be
played by the person who is being bled.
Thomas R Wylie
Dave Andrews <s2...@nmu.edu> wrote:
>I have a question, though, although an exact wording from the card will
>probably answer my question. Is it a vampire that attempts 1 bleed for
>greater than 3, or if the same vampire bleeds you with a laptop for 2, then
>uses Freak Drive and comes back for 2 more, does that make him a legal target
>for AI?
Archon Investigation is only usable during a bleed in action in which you
are being bled for more than 3 pool. In the example you give, AI cannot
be played.
Mr JA Chapman
: You are missing something major, however. If your opponent has no
: cards in their hand with the new backs, you know that they can't have this
: card. Furthermore, as Tom pointed out, if they already used their next master
: phase, you are safe.
:
Now you are missing something major - like the 40% minimum - we
want you to buy lotsa redundant VTES cards (ok thats a convocation rule so
i may be being a bit unfair to WOTC here (a first!)) so the odds that you
having no VTES cards are pretty poor.But like magic , how many non-tourney
deck exist out there (note i will be happy to see them given current rules)
: But, I must be playing a LOW power game... 4 Bleed for one action has
: never been considered "Paltry".
:
4 Bleed in one action - any vampire with sup Dom and conditioning....
Geee that took a lot of work to do - hence my argument for a greater minimum.
: However, something to hose Earth-Meld wouldn't be out of line. (Maybe
: a Thamaturgy card, you can't use Protean, Nyeah-Nyeah!)
:
: WHINE! Does this mean that SOMETHING HAD THE NERVE TO CHANGE THE
: PLAYING FIELD?!? Has some asshole DARED to make things that you have to
: prepare for and plan against?!? Just who do they think they are forcing you to
: THINK when making a deck?????
I dont mind the playing field changing , in fact something probably
needed to be done about bleeding . What I would like to see is a game where
bleed , combat and vote decks all have a reasonable chance of winning . I still
think that this card is probably going to badly hurt bleed decks .
Because of this , relatively combat and voting will improve. What
I am hoping for is that this improvement is not excessive in order to
promote a wider variety of strategies in use . The actual
wording on the card may help this , but hows this for a timing question .
When does deflection have to get played w.r.t AI ? Is the actual wording on the
card 'attempting a bleed' or 'has already bled' . If it is the former
as suggested by Tom's post ("attempting a bleed in excess of 3") why cant
you burn the vamp (as the bleed is being attempted, and then deflect the bleed . (or does the bleed just disappear if the vamp is burned)You might want to check
that there wording.......
:
: > anyone wanna buy a malk deck
: > going cheap
: >
: > JA Chapman
: >
:
: Ritaxis
: --
:
As to aura reading is that a combat or action mod ? As a combat card
it wouldnt really help here....and youre gonna require a lot of them...
In game world terms though (ok so its really got nothing to do with
how VTES is played...) how is this meant to work . Like an archon finds a vamp
being naughty and frags him - sorry i just cant see many vampires with archon
status fragging Democritus so easily......
I still think WOTC needs to consider this card before it is released,
as it is easier to fix now rather that later . Increase the bleed required
or else reduce the penalty (vamp takes aggro equal to attempted bleed?,or
maybe it should be played if the vampire was blocked but before combat occurs
(like Millicent smith)).As of the moment only a bloodhunt or Millicent SMith will cause instant burning.Considering how severe a penalty this can be
it needs to be thoughroughly considered before introduction . This has
not always been the case in the past , but needs to be in the future.
JAC
Mr JA Chapman
: Saying that the IC members with Dominate can never use bleed modifiers safely
: because of Archon Investigation is like saying a vampire without Fortitude can
: never engage a Gangrel in combat safely because of Protean. Yes, you will
: get hosed sometimes, but you'll be fine at other times. You have to look
: at the situation and decide what the risk is. People are not going to be
: loading up their decks with Archon Investigation, because it only helps
: in a relatively limited situation, so big bleeders will be ok much of the time.
torpor , or else the gangrel is likely to get bloodhunted . Also flack
jackets dogdges , S:CE and sideslip also present methods to avoid this , as
do Mariel and the Elysium . There isnt such a method of avoiding AI
than just not bleeding for much or else making a deal with someone else to
use a sudden reversal (yeah right!) . Not only does it stop the bleed but
it wastes a vampire . If a big vampire is killed one card is all that is
necessary . Kill Lucian and that Malk deck has got to do a lot to make
up for the 10 loss .
As much as it does for S&B , tap and bleed and bash and bleed
gets it worse as it usually has to rely on only one vamp getting through
and to make it work this one vamp needs to do a decent amount of damage -
not just 3 points .
:
: >...Your argument about
: >using it when the master phase has been burned doesnt work either . This is
: >because either your predator OR your prey is likely to want to take the
: >opportunity to toast even a moderately good vamp . How often are BOTH of them
: >going to be without their next master phase ?...
:
: Reread the first part of what I posted: Archon Investigation can only be
: played by the person who is being bled.
I missed that part , am sorry and have been flamed for it having
deserved it over this point.
:
: Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for:
The best part of jyhad was the variety , but with the advent of
VTES I can see some of this variety being lost due to poorly considered
additions to the game which hose legitimate strategies far too easily
for the cost and risk involved . Yes bleeding needed to be cut back .
Elder Intervention (+2 int against bleeds) was a reasonable way to
do this . AI and Justicar Retribution as they are , are not .
Heck J.Ret is gonna make people really think about taking
the inner circle members without votes to back them up . And the cost that
this is going to be to many decks , is just too much (Gangrel bash and
vote-just-to-keep-one-guy-alive - i dont think so )
hoping the game doesnt get munchkinised
JAC
ScottDiBer
(pay 3 pool)
Only usable when a minion attempts to bleed you for more than 3 pool. The
action is not successful. Burn the acting minion. This is not considered
an act of diablerie."
(c) 1995 Wizards of the Coast, Inc. yada yada
Okay, to all you big bleeders out there: suck it up and take it like a
real vamp!
"omigod, check out Sudden Reversal! Might as well not play any Master
cards, they might get Reversaled! Thanx again WotC" pfft!
-scott
(scott...@aol.com)
"Fraudulent Misrepresentation!" - Zippy
CurtAdams
Wylie) writes:
>Saying that the IC members with Dominate can never use bleed modifiers
>safely because of Archon Investigation is like saying a vampire without
> Fortitude can never engage a Gangrel in combat safely because of
Protean.
No, it's not, because that's not true. Celerity can Dodge/Additional
Strike, Tremere can maneuver. You can determine your chances based on
what's in your hand.
> Yes, you will ,get hosed sometimes, but you'll be fine at other times.
But you'll never know which is which (unless you're checking those
irrelevant card backs).
Mr JA Chapman
: Okay, to all you big bleeders out there: suck it up and take it like a
: real vamp!
:
: "omigod, check out Sudden Reversal! Might as well not play any Master
: cards, they might get Reversaled! Thanx again WotC" pfft!
:
:
: -scott
: (scott...@aol.com)
: "Fraudulent Misrepresentation!" - Zippy
reversed and you lose nothing - not even the pool payed for the master . I can
see that youll just love the game when its cut down to a single viable
strategy . Wow lookslike myvote deck is just sooooo ace it is unbeatable ,
now i just wish all those other weenies would get a life and not play exactly
the same deck as me ......
Degenerate decks withstanding , its a sad loss for the game every
time a type of deck becomes realistically unviable due to changes that werent
necessary ,or do not add something positive and balanced to the game.
Win Game -Moot Gives player 5 Vps
and ousts everyone .
I'd like to see that
JAC
ps : yeah i know WG is a:ridiculous and b: unlikely to work cos everyone
would just keep stockingup on S.R's- but why have a normal sig when you can
have a stoopid one .
pps - and yeah madness net might save them malks- but bad luck to anyone else
who wants to bleed much .
Mr JA Chapman
: JA-
: Read the above Line
: If everything about this card is as I believe
: it Requires that you HAVE BEEN BLED (past tense that action is concluded
: and done and oh you actually burned the pool already)
Ummm if the posted quoted text is correct then no the bleed only
has to have been 'attempted' and will not 'be successful' . Thats right
the card stops the bleed from happening AND burns the bleeder .
:
: Then YOU
: (The person being bled, not you predator's predator, not anyone else)
: need to burn 3 more pool (more than any current master)
: (exc. Misd. if you really want to do that)
:
: That means say Didi Bleed with a Govern and Conditioning
: That's 6 pool loss followed by a 3 pool loss
: that's nine pool that you've lost
That would be a fair way of doing it , but no the loss to the player
of AI is only 3 pool . Even then you could telepathic counter the bleed to
4 and then burn Didi , but thats not the way the card was written so it
is irrelevant(sp?) .
ANd no Im not trying to go out of my way to point out that you didnt
read the other postings properly , It is a failing Im regularly guilty of.
:
: Stu
: --
: Stu Pieloch TLTT Players-Lord High And Mighty Potentate of the Known Universe
JA Chapman
Martin Jamieson
>That means say Didi Bleed with a Govern and Conditioning
>That's 6 pool loss followed by a 3 pool loss
>that's nine pool that you've lost
>
>Not terribly poweful now is it?
The card says that the bleed is not considered successful, therefore in
your example above you only lose 3 blood. Sounding a little more powerful
yet?...... Hmmmmm. should I take a 6 bleed, or pay 3 and burn their
vampire......
It is a little supprising though that 3 of the new cards attempt to
balance out stealth bleed decks, yet there are no new cards to balance
out weenie vote decks? Oh well, I'm sure WotC have some master plan (yeah
right).
Martin.
Errol T
>That means say Didi Bleed with a Govern and Conditioning
>That's 6 pool loss followed by a 3 pool loss
>that's nine pool that you've lost
>
bleed is not successful so you only take the 3 pool loss.
Errol
Errol T
T.J. Hull
chooses to bleed more than three can cause/aggravate a hand jam in a
prey that hold Archon Investigation?
TJH
Errol T
valuable room in the Library.
Errol
Alan Kwan
If you really shuffled your deck, AI doesn't jam. This is assuming
he isn't stupid, and would discard an AI whenever he has 2 in
his hand. In general, an OOT master at about 5% would hardly
cause a hand jam, but the opponent's efficiency is reduced because
he cannot bleed for more than 3. Meanwhile, he can still use
bleed bounce on your smaller bleeds.
--
"Live Life with Heart."
Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu
CurtAdams
writes:
> Has anyone thought of the fact that playing a bleed deck that never
>chooses to bleed more than three can cause/aggravate a hand jam in a
>prey that hold Archon Investigation?
I don't think AI is a card you would have in enough numbers to case a hand
jam.
The Corrupter
> In article <48a829$j...@mo6.rc.tudelft.nl> jo...@pa.twi.tudelft.nl
(Johan Meijdam) writes:
> >In a lot of gaming groups bleeding one bleed with +much bleed and +much
> >stealth is enough to focus everyone's attention to you.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A good sign that a deck type is out of control. If the whole table has
to
> team up against you, destroying the predator/prey relationship this
game that
> is a foundation for this game, then something needs to be done to check
this
> deck.
>
I'll agree with "gang up" being a sign of degeneracy, but as Johan said,
"In a lot of gaming groups". In the places I've been, S&B "gang up" has
only been the case under 4-card limits. There are many other instances
that "gang up" is legitimately(sp?) needed. If there is only one
political deck at a table, it has a free hand. The TABLE better stop it
before it gets out of control. If there is a monster combat deck eating
up its prey, and it has a weak grandprey, the TABLE better stop it.
Why?
With the vote deck, having a free hand to do whatever it wants whenever a
vote gets to the table is handing the Methuselah a ton of power.
Similarly with combat monster destroying its preu with the weak
grandprey. Its virtually guaranteed 2 VP and 12 pool unless the table
does something to stop it. The same with a S&B in the same position as
the combat deck.
> Realistically, how many Archon Investigation's would you pack in your
deck? I
> myself would pack 1, maybe 2. There are so many other decks than S&B,
if I
> draw it and my predator is not S&B, that equals wasted resources in my
deck.
>I don't know about you, but whenever I've built an S&B deck (which just got
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> too sick to do any more), I could stand to lose a vamp, even 2 or 3, because
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please elaborate. I don't understand.
> I'm still chopping away 6-8 pool per turn.
I feel that Archon Investigation would be fine if it didn't nullify the
bleed. Out of 7 decks, I don't play S&B, but I don't feel that S&B is
degenerate. As written Archon Investigation is quite powerful. Perhaps
if a Prince/Justicar were required to call it? I don't know. It might
help if I saw the _exact_ text on the new cards, though. :)
(As an aside, could someone start a thread on the _exact_ wording of the
new V:tES cards, and _exact_ wording on text changes. I haven't bought
any of the new cards, don't plan to, but do plan to play with new texts
[and house rules :] )
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@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ Spoutingly yours 8^)
Errol T
Vampires when we First started, then we all started using GIP then the
trend to lower Vamps everyone stoped using GIP because it was a waste to
have ubless you were using it on yourself, Now I'm starting to see a
trend back to large Vamps but still seeing smaller ones to, I think this
will also happen with AI.
Errol
Mr JA Chapman
: Has anyone thought of the fact that playing a bleed deck that never
: chooses to bleed more than three can cause/aggravate a hand jam in a
: prey that hold Archon Investigation?
: TJH
Problem is even 1 AI can wreck an opponents day if hes using mid
sized to large vamps....Its not the sort of card you need a lot of and if you
end up with a predator whos only doing <=3 bleeds you can just toss any
multiples that come out . After someones had a big vamp burnt a few times
theyll just stop trying (unless theyre playing malks because of perceived
similarities in personality) .
How stupid would it be if there was another OOTM that prevented
damage and burnt a vampire if it did more than 2 damage in a single strike
in combat . Yes you could still have a combat deck...theoretically - but
it would suck pretty badly . The closest thing we had to this was Rotschreck
an aggro - but this was just so popular in its 'spoiler' interpretation
that it was ignored in favour of house rules . And surprise,surprise what card
disappeared in VTES?...........
The card is an attempt to hose rampant bleed decks . The problem is
that malks S&B was the main tactic that needed to be limited , but this is
probably the least affected . Using the madness network to bleed the person
in their own turn (unless the card has changed significantly - I havent
been able to view the new ones) Malks can still bleed for heaps without
worrying about AI .
ALso it furthers the trend towards using lots of small vamps . Most
of the successful decks that ive seen are already based on <6 vampires .
This card will see even fewer decks with large vampires , both cutting down
the penatly if one gets burnt and allowing multiple small bleeds rathe than
just one big one . This once again cuts
back on the number of possible strategies and decreasing the variety .
It does wreck decks like torreador and tremere bash and bleed and tap
and bleed decks which typically rely on one large bleed a round . It was not
needed especially with the other , somewhat fairer bleed killers . The new
intercept card (whatever its name is ) is a much better response to S&B
and specifically targets this tactic (ie it was the sort of card required) .
JUsticar retribution can also be used to get rid of bleed monsters , but can
both be defeated by a vote or intercepted . Cross table votes which cant be
intercepted (by the victim) were the big danger here,but most of the targetted
vamps (ie PUlse of The Canaille or IC members) have auspex and as such
can use Eagles sight to stop this happening in most cases .
What we have here is a spoiler whose effects are in no way reflected by
its cost . Unbalanced cards like this IMO are the most detrimental to game
balance (though some only become unbalanced in combos like zipgun -DBR) .
For a small cost we have a method to dissuade people from big bleeds or to
throw an unjust and painful penalty at the bleeder . Jyhad used to (in most
cases) require more than a 'insert this one card to wreck entire strategy'
solution . This made for better , more thinking , games .
JA Chapman
T.J. Hull
True. This was somewhat facetious :)
TJH
Alan Kwan
>I'll agree with "gang up" being a sign of degeneracy, but as Johan said,
>"In a lot of gaming groups". In the places I've been, S&B "gang up" has
>only been the case under 4-card limits. There are many other instances
>that "gang up" is legitimately(sp?) needed. If there is only one
>political deck at a table, it has a free hand. The TABLE better stop it
>before it gets out of control. If there is a monster combat deck eating
>up its prey, and it has a weak grandprey, the TABLE better stop it.
>
>Why?
>
>With the vote deck, having a free hand to do whatever it wants whenever a
>vote gets to the table is handing the Methuselah a ton of power.
>Similarly with combat monster destroying its preu with the weak
>grandprey. Its virtually guaranteed 2 VP and 12 pool unless the table
>does something to stop it. The same with a S&B in the same position as
>the combat deck.
That still somewhat depends on how the player view `victory'.
If they see the player with the most VP as winner and everybody else
loses, then they will gang up in the described situations.
But if they view 0 VP as a loss, 1 VP as a draw, 2VP as a marginal
victory and more than 2 VP a big win, then it might be better to
concentrate on your prey and guarantee a VP or 2 while ignoring the
other side of the table. (Even if I contribute to ganging-up and
knowck down that biggie, I may well end up with 0 VP, especially
if the biggie is my grand-prey.)
My conjecture is that the `one vote/push per meth' (with the stricter
rule that the calling Meth. cannot push above his one vote on the
P.A. card) rule will really restrict the power of vote decks.
It might even encourage every player to put a few votes in his
deck, since a random vote or two is more significant when there
are simply less votes cast. We'll also see more negotiated votes,
and some more intelligent use of cards like Bewitching Orations,
etc. (Now, you can't use BO to pass a vote in a non-voting
deck if there's another vote deck at the table.)