Origin of the word Tzimisce
legb...@my-deja.com
yesterday in an Irish Bar called o'Neills. O'Neill's is part of a chain
and they always have real bits of irish stuff, which in the case of our
local is windows from an irish pharmacist [chemist in english]. Anyway it
turns out that the gaelic for chemist is written "ceimice". i've long
since realised that there is no way i will EVER learn how gaelic [or for
that matter czech or slovak] words are pronounced, but that doesn't
really matter in this case, since i'm sure the same metropolitan dyslexia
afflicts the designers at white wolf studios. i, and i suspect they,
would pronounce "ceimice" and "tzimisce" almost identically [si/se-MEE-
shay/shi], and given that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder if this is
more than coincidence. Any of our White Wolf staffer, middle-carpathian
or irish brothers and sisters care to whack this particular long-hop away
to the boundary?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Evil One
<snipped>
> afflicts the designers at white wolf studios. i, and i suspect they,
> would pronounce "ceimice" and "tzimisce" almost identically
[si/se-MEE-
> shay/shi], and given that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
> classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder if this is
> more than coincidence. Any of our White Wolf staffer,
middle-carpathian
> or irish brothers and sisters care to whack this particular long-hop
away
> to the boundary?
While I cannot answer your question directly, I would like to point out
that virtually every "strange" word used by White Wolf has a real-world
derivative. Some notable examples are THAUMATURGY, which means "magic",
or VISCISSITUDE (sp?), which means "change".
They have been very good at ensuring that their terminologies have real
meanings... :)
Best,
Stephen "The Evil One" Buonocore
V:EKN Prince of New Jersey
Gorse
yes, you pronounced it nearly corrrect but it has nothing got to do
with irish chemists. leprachuans haven't a patch on drago otherwise
we'd have lots of dead irish heroes in our folklore.
I would put my money on a mix of latin and bastardised english. I'll
look into it later tomorrow. let you know how it goes.
see ya all soon,
anam
Joe C.
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> i was teaching James Grey [one of my PhD students] how to play
> Jyhad yesterday in an Irish Bar called o'Neills. O'Neill's is
> part of a chain and they always have real bits of irish stuff,
> which in the case of our local is windows from an irish pharmacist
> [chemist in english]. Anyway it turns out that the gaelic for
> chemist is written "ceimice". i've long since realised that
> there is no way i will EVER learn how gaelic [or for
> that matter czech or slovak] words are pronounced, but that
> doesn't really matter in this case, since i'm sure the same
> studios. i, and i suspect they, would pronounce "ceimice" and
> that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
> classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder
> if this is more than coincidence. Any of our White Wolf staffer,
> middle-carpathian or irish brothers and sisters care to whack
> this particular long-hop away to the boundary?
Tzimisce could be derived from a host of sources.
One source maybe the latin word misce.
misce (m.)
Definition: This Latin term, which is frequently used in medicine and
pharmacy, means "mix".
Another could be a bastardized version of Tzitzimime.
Tzitzimime was an Aztec stellar god.
Personally though, I think only the guys at White Wolf would know the
correct answer to this.
Happy hunting,
Joe C.
V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC
Jasper Phillips
>In article <866rkk$rsd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> i was teaching James Grey [one of my PhD students] how to play
>> Jyhad yesterday in an Irish Bar called o'Neills. O'Neill's is
>> part of a chain and they always have real bits of irish stuff,
>> which in the case of our local is windows from an irish pharmacist
>> [chemist in english]. Anyway it turns out that the gaelic for
>> chemist is written "ceimice". i've long since realised that
>> there is no way i will EVER learn how gaelic [or for
>> that matter czech or slovak] words are pronounced, but that
>> doesn't really matter in this case, since i'm sure the same
>> metropolitan dyslexia afflicts the designers at white wolf
>> studios. i, and i suspect they, would pronounce "ceimice" and
>> "tzimisce" almost identically [si/se-MEE-shay/shi], and given
>> that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
>> classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder
>> if this is more than coincidence. Any of our White Wolf staffer,
You lost me here... what does a word in gaelic have to do with
vampires from Transylvania? I mean, if it was a Romanian or
Bulgarian world, I'd understand, but Gaelic?
Or does Gaelic share some sort of odd linguistic ancestry with
the area around the Black Sea?
>> middle-carpathian or irish brothers and sisters care to whack
>> this particular long-hop away to the boundary?
I'd heard that it is simply an Eastern European name, which makes
a certain amount of sense if you consider that the Tzimisce were
supposed to have largely hard power in that area.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
Gorse
>
>You lost me here... what does a word in gaelic have to do with
>vampires from Transylvania? I mean, if it was a Romanian or
>Bulgarian world, I'd understand, but Gaelic?
>
all the vampires had to come from translanvania in the first place?
For your information traces of gaelic have been found as for a field
as the koran in the east and mentioned in japanese writings. it is an
older lanuage than latin so be very careful with what you assume about
a lanuage or culture.
Anam
legb...@my-deja.com
phil...@bc.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote:
> [replying second hand, since I missed the original post]
>
> >In article <866rkk$rsd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> i was teaching James Grey [one of my PhD students] how to play
> >> Jyhad yesterday in an Irish Bar called o'Neills. O'Neill's is
> >> part of a chain and they always have real bits of irish stuff,
> >> which in the case of our local is windows from an irish pharmacist
> >> [chemist in english]. Anyway it turns out that the gaelic for
> >> chemist is written "ceimice". i've long since realised that
> >> there is no way i will EVER learn how gaelic [or for
> >> that matter czech or slovak] words are pronounced, but that
> >> doesn't really matter in this case, since i'm sure the same
> >> metropolitan dyslexia afflicts the designers at white wolf
> >> studios. i, and i suspect they, would pronounce "ceimice" and
> >> "tzimisce" almost identically [si/se-MEE-shay/shi], and given
> >> that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
> >> classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder
> >> if this is more than coincidence. Any of our White Wolf staffer,
>
> vampires from Transylvania? I mean, if it was a Romanian or
> Bulgarian world, I'd understand, but Gaelic?
>
> the area around the Black Sea?
Yeah, or rather inland a bit. Upper/Middle Danube is supposed to be where
the Celts originally came from.
>
> >> middle-carpathian or irish brothers and sisters care to whack
> >> this particular long-hop away to the boundary?
>
> I'd heard that it is simply an Eastern European name, which makes
> a certain amount of sense if you consider that the Tzimisce were
> supposed to have largely hard power in that area.
>
i'm sure you're right that it's meant to SOUND East European, but as
stephen points out further up this thread, White Wolf neologisms do the
clever Mervyn Peake trick of punning on existing usages or slightly
distorting their currently-accepted meaning .... Brujah = Spanish
Witches, Lasombra = theshadows, Ventrue suggests front/leader, etc, you
know what i mean. i imagine that the White Wolf creative process
frequently takes place in irish bars, presided over by the august but
inexpertly-stuffed figure of mark Rein-Hagen. They prop him up in a
corner and smoke Turkish cigarettes to neutralise the smell. "So, like,
what are we going to call this old-world clan of sadistic east-european
proto-scientists?" "Well they're kind of alchemists, aren't they? Let's
use a word that sounds east european, and means chemist, near enough."
"K, how about Si-mee-shay?" "BRILLIANT!!! where did that idea come from?"
"Sorta two feet north west of your shoulder, matey."
Legbiter, thinking so laterally he falls off the planet more often than
not.
Jasper Phillips
Gorse <stu...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>You lost me here... what does a word in gaelic have to do with
>>vampires from Transylvania? I mean, if it was a Romanian or
>>Bulgarian world, I'd understand, but Gaelic?
>>
>all the vampires had to come from translanvania in the first place?
>For your information traces of gaelic have been found as for a field
>as the koran in the east and mentioned in japanese writings. it is an
>older lanuage than latin so be very careful with what you assume about
>a lanuage or culture.
Which is why I asked, of course... however, you didn't actually answer
the real question, which was snipped... Is there actually some linguistic
connection between Gaelic and Eastern Europe languages? I'm not talking about
"traces" in relatively modern documents (e.g. the Koran), or mention
of it elsewhere, I curious about actual similarity.
Jasper Phillips
>In article <8684f7$3o5$1...@news.NERO.NET>,
>> You lost me here... what does a word in gaelic have to do with
>> vampires from Transylvania? I mean, if it was a Romanian or
>> Bulgarian world, I'd understand, but Gaelic?
>>
>> the area around the Black Sea?
>
>Yeah, or rather inland a bit. Upper/Middle Danube is supposed to be where
>the Celts originally came from.
Well, yes, but that doesn't neccesarily imply linguistic similarity.
It's close enough I suppose you could expect some cross over. I'm not
neccesarily doubting you, I'm just curious to know how far the connection
goes. For example, is Gaelic part of the same linguistic "family" as
modern Eastern European languages?
>> I'd heard that it is simply an Eastern European name, which makes
>> a certain amount of sense if you consider that the Tzimisce were
>> supposed to have largely hard power in that area.
>>
>i'm sure you're right that it's meant to SOUND East European, but as
>stephen points out further up this thread, White Wolf neologisms do the
>clever Mervyn Peake trick of punning on existing usages or slightly
>distorting their currently-accepted meaning .... Brujah = Spanish
>Witches, Lasombra = theshadows, Ventrue suggests front/leader, etc, you
>know what i mean. i imagine that the White Wolf creative process
No unreasonable, as you can always say that it was these names
influenced the local language. ;-) For example, in place run by
the Lasombra, with the word La(s) already around, what better word
for shadow than ombra?
>frequently takes place in irish bars, presided over by the august but
>inexpertly-stuffed figure of mark Rein-Hagen. They prop him up in a
>corner and smoke Turkish cigarettes to neutralise the smell. "So, like,
>what are we going to call this old-world clan of sadistic east-european
>proto-scientists?" "Well they're kind of alchemists, aren't they? Let's
>use a word that sounds east european, and means chemist, near enough."
>"K, how about Si-mee-shay?" "BRILLIANT!!! where did that idea come from?"
>"Sorta two feet north west of your shoulder, matey."
Some things are perhaps better done drunk, then later reviewed I suppose.
Thinking up good names, that sound like they _could_ be "real" is
a good trick though.
James Coupe
> For example, is Gaelic part of the same linguistic "family" as
> modern Eastern European languages?
No. Gaelic falls into the Celtic language grouping, of which there are
two distinct varieties, noted normally as P and Q Celtic, though I always
get them the wrong way round, whichever way I think it is.
One grouping is that of Irish Gaelic, Scots' Gaelic and Manx (that of the
Isle of Man). The other grouping is of Welsh, Cornish (that of Cornwall,
originally an independent country, now a region of England) and Breton
(spoken in Brittany, in France). It is actually possible, though the
transcription of the languages has altered drastically, to converse in
Welsh and Breton, if the conversation is kept to a simple enough level,
because of the cross-over in vocabulary which is still pronounced
similarly.
The languages of Turkey (and the surrounding regions, including, to the
best of my knowledge, Hungary) and also Finland form a different language
grouping - the Finno-Yurik (the spelling is wrong, but it's pronounced
like that) group which, whilst derived from Indo-European, is
substantially different from the other European language groupings.
--
James Coupe
Jasper Phillips
James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>On 21 Jan 2000, Jasper Phillips wrote:
>> For example, is Gaelic part of the same linguistic "family" as
>> modern Eastern European languages?
>
>No. Gaelic falls into the Celtic language grouping, of which there are
[Full description snipped for brevity]
That's roughly what I expected. Thanks for the info; I'm still a bit
curious however... what's your source?
James Coupe
> That's roughly what I expected. Thanks for the info; I'm still a bit
> curious however... what's your source?
Unfortunately, most of this is from general knowledge from friends who are
Welsh etc. I also have the luxury of studying some Middle Welsh as part
of my degree, and know one of the lecturers at Queen's College, Cambridge,
who, whilst a Classicist (predominantly Greek and Latin), has an
astounding knowledge of pretty much every language on the planet (it
seems), on the sort of level I recounted.
However, a good book on Indo-European linguistics should be available
somewhere.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
> However, a good book on Indo-European linguistics should be available
> somewhere.
Aha....
Try:
http://users.comlab.ox.ac.uk/geraint.jones/about.welsh/#history
It, and the rest of the page, is fairly clear and concise.
--
James Coupe
Jasper Phillips
Cool, thanks! These kinds of things are always better than "I heard
it on usenet". :-)
Merlisk
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> i was teaching James Grey [one of my PhD students] how to play Jyhad
> yesterday in an Irish Bar called o'Neills. O'Neill's is part of a
chain
> and they always have real bits of irish stuff, which in the case of
our
> local is windows from an irish pharmacist [chemist in english].
Anyway it
> turns out that the gaelic for chemist is written "ceimice". i've long
> since realised that there is no way i will EVER learn how gaelic [or
for
> that matter czech or slovak] words are pronounced, but that doesn't
> really matter in this case, since i'm sure the same metropolitan
dyslexia
> afflicts the designers at white wolf studios. i, and i suspect they,
> would pronounce "ceimice" and "tzimisce" almost identically [si/se-
MEE-
> shay/shi], and given that the Tzimisce are kind of a cross between the
> classic transylvanian vampire and Mad Alchemists, i wonder if this is
carpathian
> or irish brothers and sisters care to whack this particular long-hop
away
> to the boundary?
I just found this link with White Wolf etymology. Check it out:
http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html
--
Best regards,
Merlisk
VEKN Prince of Dallas
http://merlisk.tripod.com/jyhad/jyhad.html
The Evil One
Merlisk <mer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I just found this link with White Wolf etymology. Check it out:
> http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html
A Yiddish stew??? How disappointing! :)
Best,
Stephen "The Evil One" Buonocore
V:EKN Prince of New Jersey