First Strike
Emiliano Imeroni
Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
have been raised several times in the past, but I
think it deserves additional consideration.
The current rule reads (from section 6.4.5 of rulebook):
"First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved
before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is
burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike,
his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion
was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with
first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his
strike altogether. If both minions strike with first strike,
then the strikes are resolved simultaneously.
A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before
a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and
a dodge still cancels the effects of a strike done with first
strike (see below)."
My question is: would the game lose anything or would
it actually benefit if *the last 4 lines of the above rule
were removed* (along with similar clarification text in
the dodge and combat ends rules)?
Basically, First Strike would now really (proverbially?)
resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
This very simple change to the rules could have some
good consequences, such as:
-> Providing Assamites with viable pre-emptive anti-S:CE
tech, with Shadow Feint (obf cel, free), Silence of Death
(qui, only hand/melee, costs 1 blood) and Veil of SIlence
(qui, reaction, only hand/melee, costs 1 blood), without
extending this tech too much beyond the current availability
(that is having pot, AUS, CEL or a Dog Pack);
-> Making a whole bunch of underused/wallpaper cards
(such as the one I just mentioned) worth playing.
A negative aspect would be that Superior Shadow Feint
and superior Veil of Silence become redundant (however
they don't see much play nowadays anyway).
Also, one may wonder that Muddled Vampire Hunter and
the four vampires who have inherent First Strike (Ruth
Ginley, Christopher Houghton, Jack Dawson and Elimelech)
could become a wee bit too strong, but on the other hand
abilities such as Oliver Thrace's already exist.
I personally think that the advantages would overcome
the disadvantages, and it could be a simple "one line"
rewriting that could make combat (and Assamites!)more
varied and effective, without having to rewrite cards and
without causing worrying unbalance.
What do you think?
Ciao ciao,
Emiliano
crispyfloss
wrote:
> Basically, First Strike would now really (proverbially?)
> resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
Before an S:CE or Dodge that aren't also done with First Strike,
right?
I didn't pay attention to the debate the first around. Rather than
reinventing the wheel, do you know what the main arguments going the
other way were, and why you don't think they're justified?
Emiliano Imeroni
> On Aug 23, 10:32 am, Emiliano Imeroni <emiliano.imer...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Basically, First Strike would now really (proverbially?)
> > resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
>
> Before an S:CE or Dodge that aren't also done with First Strike,
> right?
Sure.
> I didn't pay attention to the debate the first around. Rather than
> reinventing the wheel, do you know what the main arguments going the
> other way were, and why you don't think they're justified?
Well, honestly I haven't spent the whole day searching for old threads
but, going through 2-3 of them, it seems that the main arguments
against the change I could find were either "designer intent" or of
the
"but there are already ways to beat S:CE, why don't
you just use those?" type, which I don't find very convincing.
Emiliano
(reinventing the wheel is fun)
Orpheus
>> > resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
I've been a fan of such a proposal in earlier group discussions, and yes, it
would give the Assamites (and !Gangrels !!) the edge they need, provided
that :
- not too many other such cards are issued
- that as mentionned a Dodge or S:CE made with First Strike works at the
same time (and therefore : works !) ; the superior Veil or Shadow feint
therefore wouldn't be totally obsolete
It could even open the opportunity for new S:CE, which in superior happen in
First Strike.
As much as it shouldn't become the ultimate anti-S:CE around, it could be an
interesting alternative. It would provide currently weak vampires with an
edge, while not unbalancing the old ones too much (we would have to watch
for Tariq or Beast even more, though).
What worries me more is the Muddled Vampire Hunter, who would become very,
very strong indeed. OTOH he is Unique and he has only 1 life, can be
stolen... Ok, the downsides might be worth it.
>> I didn't pay attention to the debate the first around. Rather than
>> reinventing the wheel, do you know what the main arguments going the
>> other way were, and why you don't think they're justified?
>
> Well, honestly I haven't spent the whole day searching for old threads
> but, going through 2-3 of them, it seems that the main arguments
> against the change I could find were either "designer intent" or of
> the
> "but there are already ways to beat S:CE, why don't
> you just use those?" type, which I don't find very convincing.
>
> Emiliano
> (reinventing the wheel is fun)
Agreed. But then, don't we always ? ;-)
-------
Orpheus
Teeka
If that really is the trade-off, I'd gladly de-power S:CE a bit in
favor of making the assamites and/or quietus (or combat as a whole)
more playable. And those two superiors you mention might not stay
redundant, because this new rule would likely open the path for a few
"dodge with first strike" effects.
FWIW, this new rule would seem a bit more simple and logical to me:
First Strike comes first, period.
Jeff Kuta
I think First Strike is an underused mechanic, partly because it is
weak, expensive and/or rare. However, it seems to me that combat is
becoming more and more viable, slowly as that may be. As a result,
First Strike will become more powerful as decks trend toward hitback
instead of avoidance.
I think that pre-emptive S:CE measures which are *not* first strike
are what the Assamites need to become the combat monsters they deserve
to be.
But really, the biggest problem with combat is that two minions of
vastly different costs can have a combat interaction and the smaller
one can easily be the victor even if the larger has much more blood.
This can't always be blamed on deck design, and I think if this were
addressed, then true combat would be more viable as a strategy since
the risks of playing it would be reduced relative to the additional
cost in making it tougher to oust via combat.
Jeff
wumpus
> Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
> Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
> First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
> have been raised several times in the past, but I
> think it deserves additional consideration.
>
> The current rule reads (from section 6.4.5 of rulebook):
> "First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved
> before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is
> burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike,
> his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion
> was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with
> first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his
> strike altogether. If both minions strike with first strike,
> then the strikes are resolved simultaneously.
> A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before
> a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and
> a dodge still cancels the effects of a strike done with first
> strike (see below)."
>
> My question is: would the game lose anything or would
> it actually benefit if *the last 4 lines of the above rule
> were removed* (along with similar clarification text in
> the dodge and combat ends rules)?
>
> Basically, First Strike would now really (proverbially?)
> resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
Except Dodges or S:CE delivered with First Strike, of course.
> What do you think?
I second the motion.
It's also worth pointing out that First Strike really isn't that easy
to come by, so this change is unlikely to really upset the apple cart:
Anesthetic Touch: Obeah, close, S:CE
Backstab: block, 2 blood
Collapse the Arches: Visceratika, block
Haymaker: opponent gets the FS!
Shadow Feint: dual discipline, 1 blood
Silence of Death: Quietus, 1 blood
Veil of Silence: Quietus, block, 1 blood
Muddles: OK, yes, he'd be stronger.
Ruth McGinley: Might actually see some use - not a lot better than
a minion with CEL. (Has cel/obf anyway.)
Jack Dawson: Werewolves watch out...
Christopher Houghton: Can already Telepathic Track, Psyche!,
Thoughts Betrayed or Grapple; pays a blood for FS.
Elimelech: Can already Telepathic Track or Thoughts Betrayed; he'd
certainly become better, which wouldn't suck for an 11-cap competing
with Arika...
Note: This list doesn't include the equipment stealing/destroying
First Strike effects.
Basically, it'd give the Assamites and !Gangrel (who don't have Dog
Packs) a way around S:CE that costs a blood. And we all know how much
play Telepathic Tracking gets... (Oh, and Gargoyles might have a neat
new toy - would Tupdog be worse?)
I think this would be a fine change to try out.
Alex
James Coupe
Kuta <jeff...@gmail.com> writes:
>I think First Strike is an underused mechanic, partly because it is
>weak, expensive and/or rare. However, it seems to me that combat is
>becoming more and more viable, slowly as that may be. As a result,
>First Strike will become more powerful as decks trend toward hitback
>instead of avoidance.
I'd quite like to see it available more widely, though selectively. For
example:
- an Assamite/Quietus combat card, that also grants First Strike if the
opponent is Contracted
- one option on an Anarch Three-Way, which has two other solid options
(putting the First Strike on a common discipline - say, cel) so
the card is likely to see play
- Trophy: Combat Wombat, which grants useful combat options (say, a
permanent maneuver and optional First Strike, or strength and
FS, or something), or Trophy: Informant Network, which grants
bonuses (including First Strike) against Red List vampires
- intercept which also grants First Strike on a successful block.
The sort of cards that might be considered by a deck anyway, but that
also grant First Strike as an incidental nicety.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
The Lasombra
<emiliano...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
>Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
>First Strike rule could be advisable.
One of the Frequently Offered Clever Suggestions.
http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_focs.htm
January 27, 2002
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/352c2843373d7cc8
Concealed Weapon came off the list, so it is possible that this will
as well. I am always amazed when a card mentions this mechanic. When
Paralyze was removed, first strike could and should have been safely
removed as well.
Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex)
> But really, the biggest problem with combat is that two minions of
> vastly different costs can have a combat interaction and the smaller
> one can easily be the victor even if the larger has much more blood.
> This can't always be blamed on deck design, and I think if this were
> addressed, then true combat would be more viable as a strategy since
> the risks of playing it would be reduced relative to the additional
> cost in making it tougher to oust via combat.
>
> Jeff
Uriah Winter can now grapple, prevent, disarm and amaranth leandro...
i always think that FS is a lot weaker than any other mechanic... even
with agro poke cause every combat-avoid strategy hose it (dodge, S:CE
and prevention).
and give a new S.CE w/FS to some clans that does not have a good
chance to combat (!ventrue?)
coward of the hill
aus+for: dodge w/FS
AUS+FOR: S.SE w/FS
cheers!
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
work - this way the card mentioned will still be fully legal etc.
so it will be anti-S:CE only
CthuluKitty
> Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
> First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
> have been raised several times in the past, but I
> think it deserves additional consideration.
It does not deserve additional consideration. It has been considered,
or at least discussed, quite a bit, and there is no reason to expect
the design team to pay any more attention to the idea now than they
have in the past. The problem is not that first strike isn't good
enough. It is quite effective on cards such as Muddles, Canine Horde
(why are you guys ignoring the fact that this already powerful effect
would become unavoidable if your suggestions were implemented?), and
Elimelech (though the last one there has yet to prove himself). The
problematic cards are those mentioned, such as Shadow Feint. They are
horrible, as are lots of other cards in the game. It would be great to
see them get new text, or just have new cards printed that do what
people want them to do. However, it does not make sense to rewrite a
portion of the rules just to make a few terrible cards playable. We
might as well rewrite the way the Edge works to make Regaining the
Upper Hand and Esteem playable.
Kozkak
I've just seen this and I couldn't resist.
First of all. It seems that the first part of the FOCS is just about
how Garfield disliked this idea, not why is it bad. Although this is
not the original idea, the game changes and those changes are not made
by him. Those changes are made because they help to make the game
better or more enjoyable.
The examples are correct but IMHO incomplete.
"two people fight.
One punches faster than the other.
Both attempt to strike simultaneously.
The fastest puncher hit the other first. The second blow lands on him
normally though." unless the first punch takes down the second fighter
in which case second punch never lands. This is properly demonstrated
in the game, if the other minion is not ready he/she cannot strike.
"Now...
two people fight.
One punches faster than the other.
the fast puncher attempts to strike, while the other runs away.
no matter how fast is the punch, it will hit thin air." but first
strike is not only about quickness is about surprise effect also;
Silence of Death is not about how fast you move, right?: someone is
trying to do some bad things to you or some assets you own or whatever
he gets intercepted but he never sees you, never senses you, is
completely unaware of you, and then you land a punch in his face, back
of the head or stab/ fire him, it doesn't matter how fast he is, he's
going down. Still if it's all about speed, if two people fight and
they're standing so close, you can throw a punch before they start to
run and land it before they turn, run and get away.
I agree with this completely, that way combat (and Assamites) gets a
little better, but as said before F/S is not that common so not THAT
better. In any case, if it'd happen we'd see dodge, S:CE with F/S also
not that common or that cheap but enough to not let F/S break the
game.
Muddled and Canine Hordes are really that powerful, CthuluKitty? Might
be a meta thing because I don't see Muddled that often in fact I've
seen it played one time since I started, and CH are just annoying if
you're playing with guns or something, and surely if you'd play guns
you'd pack F/S if this was the case. Otherwise 1R damage at F/S is not
really so powerful or overpowered.
Rafa
Wolflord
wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
> Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
> First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
> have been raised several times in the past, but I
> think it deserves additional consideration.
> What do you think?
>
> Ciao ciao,
> Emiliano
Hey Emilian,
Just wondering, as I haven't followed those previous posts onthe
Assamite problem, but I thikn you need to consider a few things imo:
1) is the fact that they don't have any pre-emptive anti SCE really
the problem, or is the cause somehere else?
Personally, I can't really see any specific issues for the assamites
inparticular, originating from this specific "gap". I'd even be
inclined to say that they're on the side that have access to anti- SCE
tech (psyche as the most obvious one), so don't need anything else
2) Secondly: do consider when you're changing First Strike, it doesn't
only effect Assamites.I think it will taka e while to see the true
results of such a change, but can easily see AUS-CEL geting even
better, or different versions of CEL-gun starting up.
3) Will it really improve anything? Changing First Strike (because I
*do* agree I've always found it idiotic and counterinuitive, for me at
least, the way it works now) doesn't solve any of the problems which
are not solved by playing Psyche. I mean, not really.
4) The game is already slow, and not very rewarding for forward-motion
decks as is. Does it need, at this point in time, even more stuff that
slows play, and encourages combat?
I mean really, will this help the game as such, other than maybe being
a funny change for assamite+ combat loving people?
Just my thoughts,
jo
eRol
adam....@gmail.com
First strike is so affect you damage compared to you opponents. Dodge
and S:CE doesn't even get to the damage phase.
I think that the issue with First Strike is the actual cards
themselves.
The optimal way to use first strike would be see what the opponents
strike would be... THEN play first strike. [similar to wolf claws]
Unfortunately there are only 4 cards that do that AND only when you
are blocking (because the attacker declares first).
They are:
Shattering Blow
Fast Hands
Canine Horde
Blessing of Durga Syn
Every other card the oppenent very early knows that the character has
first strike and can act appropriately. They are:
Veil of Silence
Silence of Death
Shadow Feint
Muddled Vampire Hunter
Haymaker
Backstab
Elimelech the Twice-Damned
Christopher Houghton
Jack Dawson (ADV)
Ruth McGinley
So it order to make first strike "better" here are some sample ideas.
[combat card]
Reactive Reflexes
Quietus
Cost 1 blood
[qui] Only usable before range is determined. This vampire gets first
strike. [QUI] First strike.
[Note: Raise cost to 2? To make the other quietus first strike cards
comparable?]
[reaction card]
Rooftop Buddy
Play during combat
Only useable by a minion with a ranged weapon not in combat
Cost 1 blood
Only usable when another minion you control enters combat with a
minion. In that combat, this minion may ranged weapon strike on the
opposing minion during normal strike resolution (only usable at close
range). Dodge will avoid this strike, and damage prevention effects
can treat this as a strike from an opposing minion. This minion can be
the target of effects that inflict damage or steal blood as a retainer
could be. If damage is successful, reduce damage to zero. Your minion
in combat gains first strike.
[Note: Obviously the above was based off of Winged Second]
[combat card]
Dim Mak
Requires: Assamite
Cost 1 blood
Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen for a contract on the
opposing minion. This assamite gains first strike and his strikes
cannot be dodged this round.
[Note: Too good perhaps? Take out the dodge part?]
Adam
crispyfloss
> The problem is not that first strike isn't good
> enough. It is quite effective on cards such as Muddles, Canine Horde
> (why are you guys ignoring the fact that this already powerful effect
> would become unavoidable if your suggestions were implemented?), and
Until Dodge, with First Strike or S:CE, with First Strike is printed,
anyway.
> Elimelech (though the last one there has yet to prove himself). The
> problematic cards are those mentioned, such as Shadow Feint. They are
> horrible, as are lots of other cards in the game. It would be great to
> see them get new text, or just have new cards printed that do what
> people want them to do. However, it does not make sense to rewrite a
> portion of the rules just to make a few terrible cards playable.
I think the issue isn't people moping about piles of unusable cards,
but the desire to incrementally improve a specific subset of combat
without unbalancing it, generally. The fact that cards already exist,
using a nigh-useless implementation of a mechanic that seems like it
should address the exact weakness of that subset, that are
disproportionately usable by that specific subset, makes it seem like
an elegant solution.
Blooded Sand
> On Aug 23, 7:32 pm, Emiliano Imeroni <emiliano.imer...@gmail.com>
> wrote:> Hi everyone,
>
> > Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
> > Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
> > First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
> > have been raised several times in the past, but I
> > think it deserves additional consideration.
>
> <snip>
>
> > What do you think?
>
> > Ciao ciao,
> > Emiliano
>
> Hey Emilian,
>
> Just wondering, as I haven't followed those previous posts onthe
> Assamite problem, but I thikn you need to consider a few things imo:
>
> 1) is the fact that they don't have any pre-emptive anti SCE really
> the problem, or is the cause somehere else?
> Personally, I can't really see any specific issues for the assamites
> inparticular, originating from this specific "gap". I'd even be
> inclined to say that they're on the side that have access to anti- SCE
> tech (psyche as the most obvious one), so don't need anything else
Sigh. This is the same argument trotted out each time.... Do you
actually play combat that requires setup, ie before strike, cards? Cos
if you did you would understand just how far fro anti-S:CE psyche
really is. There are a number of cards which strengthen your combat
abilities that have to be played before stirkes, ie before range or
whatever. Psyche in no way helps with the resources spent on those if
the other minion can just S:CE (1 card) vs all the blood and cards you
have already spent. So really, the "But they have Psyche" argument is
a dead horse, please stop floggin it.
>
> 2) Secondly: do consider when you're changing First Strike, it doesn't
> only effect Assamites.I think it will taka e while to see the true
> results of such a change, but can easily see AUS-CEL geting even
> better, or different versions of CEL-gun starting up.
How? Using which cards? Only one I can see is backstab, and 2 blood
for the average CEL weenie gun deck is lots.
> 3) Will it really improve anything? Changing First Strike (because I
> *do* agree I've always found it idiotic and counterinuitive, for me at
> least, the way it works now) doesn't solve any of the problems which
> are not solved by playing Psyche. I mean, not really.
Again, see above. However if by this you are arguing for a PRE-EMPTIVE
anti-S:CE card to be printed outside Pot (preferably in Qui), then I'm
all for it.
>
> 4) The game is already slow, and not very rewarding for forward-motion
> decks as is. Does it need, at this point in time, even more stuff that
> slows play, and encourages combat?
> I mean really, will this help the game as such, other than maybe being
> a funny change for assamite+ combat loving people?
Explaining how having EFFECTIVE combat decks ona table will not help
with forward motion? You xtable me, your minions fry, your pred has
more space to go forward. I have more efficient combat abilities, i
thus need to spend less resources on combat, thus can spend more
resources on heavy ousting. here's a wall deck in front of me, I have
hyper efficient combat, what wall deck? The game would speed up, not
slow down, so yes, I do think the game needs more effective combatat
this point in time, and this is a very good small first step towards
it.
>
> Just my thoughts,
> jo
Same here :)
Yosar
>I think that the issue with First Strike is the actual cards
>themselves.
>The optimal way to use first strike would be see what the opponents
>strike would be... THEN play first strike. [similar to wolf claws]
Not too much. They would be totally useless cards against most common
(90%) combat i.e. combat ends and dodge. Why would anybody seriously
use them?
The only usable card giving FS is Silence of Death in Thetmes deck
(Canine Horde actually doesn't give FS, only provides it to the effect
it offers). Why? Because Thetmes has Potence and Immortal Grapple.
Silence of Death gives manouver so the card starts to be useful to
make sure opponent won't escape to long range. IG deals with combat
ends and dodge.
FS will always be useless without pre-emptive anti combat ends .
>[combat card]
>Dim Mak
>Requires: Assamite
>Cost 1 blood
>Only usable if this Assamite has been chosen for a contract on the
>opposing minion. This assamite gains first strike and his strikes
>cannot be dodged this round.
>[Note: Too good perhaps? Take out the dodge part?]
Not to offend you, but Assamites and Quietus really don't need another
bunch of pricey cards which accomplish nothing for them in combat.
And the last one is similar to Shadow Feint. Noone uses SF for a good
reason.
Assamites actually don't need FS. They are not able to make one big
strike like Potence to finish combat before opponent has a chance to
hit back. That's why they have Celerity. They have no easy access to
aggravated damage also. So basically it's useless for them.
I think FS should be binded with other effects like Canine Horde or
Anesthetic Touch. That's the only way it could be useful in the
current form.
Y.
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:54:32 -0000, "adam.hu...@gmail.com"
very true
first strike is weak game mechanic - it cost much and doesn't give
edge to be even barely "worthwile"
if combat ends will be after first strike i must admit it will be much
better (only few clans have acces to first strike - and it will boost
quietus! (worst discipline in the game))
Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex)
> strike like Potence to finish combat before opponent has a chance to
> hit back. That's why they have Celerity. They have no easy access to
> aggravated damage also. So basically it's useless for them.
> I think FS should be binded with other effects like Canine Horde or
> Anesthetic Touch. That's the only way it could be useful in the
> current form.
>
> Y.
Hi!
in my experience, FS is hosed by FOR and dodge/S:CE and assamites have
a good strike against FOR and also agg dammage, both used in long
range combat assamites. if you count on the mechanic change that we
are talking here , FS will be a good help for assies, and also for
city !gangrel that coun with agro poke and cel+obf.
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
wrote:
hi!
quietus FS is hand or meele weapon only
OBF/CEL one can help you but you have to be CEL/OBF/QUI (8 cappacity
minimum - also agg damage doesn't prevent fortitude and Blood Sweet is
not agravated) "combat monster" and you have to spend 2/3 blood
(Selective Silence and FS and Strike) ... hardly overpowered :P
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
LOL
YOU think that is is UNFAIR ?
in my experience both long range assamite combat and !gangrel agro
poke are not "game wining strategies" - quite the opposite
Chlorix64
perception of "First Strike" certainly was different from the way it is
implemented in V:TES at the moment.
I think the name of the ability is a bit misleading. A better name would
have been "Fast Strike". Then again it is just a name for a game
mechanism.
I agree with most of the people above. FS is fairly weak. However changing
the rules is always difficult with CCG's, because all the cards contain a
part of the rules. Then again CCG's have an easy way to "bent" the rules.
Just print a card for it!
Let's see if Emiliano can live with this one:
Dark Alley
Master: Location
Req.: Assamite
Cost: 1 pool
"A strike done with first strike by an Assamite will resolve before a
combat ends effect and before a dodge."
Of course it is also possible to create an Event card that lets resolve
first strike before a S:CE or a dodge. (Maybe an idea for a promo).
Greetz,
H.
Orpheus
news:1187952009.1...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, everyone. I heven't been active around here for a lot of time but
> I've just seen this and I couldn't resist.
>
> First of all. It seems that the first part of the FOCS is just about
> how Garfield disliked this idea, not why is it bad. Although this is
> not the original idea, the game changes and those changes are not made
> by him. Those changes are made because they help to make the game
> better or more enjoyable.
I agree. It must be noted that this FOCS is the only one against which there
is no real argument, only the "the designers past and current stick to the
old rule" part.
> The examples are correct but IMHO incomplete.
>
> "two people fight.
> One punches faster than the other.
> Both attempt to strike simultaneously.
> The fastest puncher hit the other first. The second blow lands on him
> normally though." unless the first punch takes down the second fighter
> in which case second punch never lands. This is properly demonstrated
> in the game, if the other minion is not ready he/she cannot strike.
>
> "Now...
> two people fight.
> One punches faster than the other.
> the fast puncher attempts to strike, while the other runs away.
> no matter how fast is the punch, it will hit thin air." but first
> strike is not only about quickness is about surprise effect also;
> Silence of Death is not about how fast you move, right?: someone is
> trying to do some bad things to you or some assets you own or whatever
> he gets intercepted but he never sees you, never senses you, is
> completely unaware of you, and then you land a punch in his face, back
> of the head or stab/ fire him, it doesn't matter how fast he is, he's
> going down. Still if it's all about speed, if two people fight and
> they're standing so close, you can throw a punch before they start to
> run and land it before they turn, run and get away.
Yes, it's a way to see it also. Reyda's example is not only incomplete byt
totally biased : it doesn't take into account the most important case, the
one of the strike that really hurts. It could be an aggravated strike, or
one strong enough to send to torpor : in that case, in the first part of the
example, the second fighter can't hit back. In the second example, the first
strike would be a "sucker punch", or an ambush, and in both cases running
away isn't an option (yet).
> I agree with this completely, that way combat (and Assamites) gets a
> little better, but as said before F/S is not that common so not THAT
> better. In any case, if it'd happen we'd see dodge, S:CE with F/S also
> not that common or that cheap but enough to not let F/S break the
> game.
Yes.
> Muddled and Canine Hordes are really that powerful, CthuluKitty? Might
> be a meta thing because I don't see Muddled that often in fact I've
> seen it played one time since I started,
I have, he's strong, and would be much stronger with FS, but not
game-breaking in and by himself.
> and CH are just annoying if
> you're playing with guns or something, and surely if you'd play guns
> you'd pack F/S if this was the case. Otherwise 1R damage at F/S is not
> really so powerful or overpowered.
Not to mention that CH does 0 damage at FS, it's either 1R or "destroy
equipement with FS".
Orpheus
Orpheus
> the rules is always difficult with CCG's, because all the cards contain a
> part of the rules.
That isn't the case with the current proposal.
> Then again CCG's have an easy way to "bent" the rules.
> Just print a card for it!
>
> Let's see if Emiliano can live with this one:
>
> Dark Alley
> Master: Location
> Req.: Assamite
> Cost: 1 pool
> "A strike done with first strike by an Assamite will resolve before a
> combat ends effect and before a dodge."
>
> Of course it is also possible to create an Event card that lets resolve
> first strike before a S:CE or a dodge. (Maybe an idea for a promo).
This, of course, won't help one bit the other poor children of Combat, the
!Gangrel.
As an aside, I've been thinking and it might be fine to put FS only before
S:CE and not dodge. It might be hard to explain, but it would be better for
the game IMHO (I can argument if need be).
Orpheus
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
well change that it will be simultaneus with combat ends doesn't
invalidate any current card - that's the point! (dodge will still beat
it - boost for dodge - now it is poor's man combat ends )
there is no need to print another card to boost it - just change
mechanic.
I strongly want it to be improved (for LSJ :) )
it is rather rare game mechanic and it will still have fairy big cost
Blooded Sand
So what would your argument be orpheus? Cos if its the "I can run away
faster than your first strike" then that argument has no validity.
Blood sweat/Assault rifle at first strike is gonna hose you buddy,
sorry....
Teeka
> > I agree with most of the people above. FS is fairly weak. However changing
> > the rules is always difficult with CCG's, because all the cards contain a
> > part of the rules.
>
> That isn't the case with the current proposal.
>
> > Then again CCG's have an easy way to "bent" the rules.
> > Just print a card for it!
>
> > Let's see if Emiliano can live with this one:
>
> > Dark Alley
> > Master: Location
> > Req.: Assamite
> > Cost: 1 pool
> > "A strike done with first strike by an Assamite will resolve before a
> > combat ends effect and before a dodge."
>
> > Of course it is also possible to create an Event card that lets resolve
> > first strike before a S:CE or a dodge. (Maybe an idea for a promo).
>
> This, of course, won't help one bit the other poor children of Combat, the
> !Gangrel.
>
Then let's have another card that works exactly the same, requiring !
Gan. No problem, right?
I think "Dark Alley" would be an even more appropriate name for a card
requiring city predators. The assamite card could be named "desert
casino" or something. :-)
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
combat decks already have problems with pool and masters :/
it is BAD SOLUTION
Wookie813
It is hard to make a card the solution to a major problem. Tired of
getting bled for a bunch? Awesome, there's Archon Investigation and
Dummy Corporation for those who can't be bothered with blocking or
bouncing. But you have to have one on-hand the whole game.
A master card location that tweaks the core rules would only do so
while it was in play. So how many copies do you run to get one early?
How many will you later choke on during a combat?
I agree, not the way to do it.
James Coupe
om>, Chlorix64 <herman...@xs4all.nl> writes:
>Of course it is also possible to create an Event card that lets resolve
>first strike before a S:CE or a dodge. (Maybe an idea for a promo).
Questionable idea for a promo, if it's likely to be wanted/needed as a
keystone for a strategy reasonably large quantities by a variety of
deck-types.
Promos are, generally, best filled with things that aren't so crucial.
That's not to say you can't build decks around promos (you can), it's
just that if the point of the card is to basically make a whole strategy
playable at all, it's better as a card in normal circulation - a fixed
include in a starter, a card in a booster, etc.
Blooded Sand
> In message <a4f6738bba7f2c1e534c1479946d9...@localhost.talkaboutgaming.c
Or maybe we just make Third, sorry, I meant First strike (of course),
really, you know, um, First strike? Sounds like a plan to me!
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>Or maybe we just make Third, sorry, I meant First strike (of course),
>really, you know, um, First strike? Sounds like a plan to me!
There are, as has been discussed, numerous reasons for not doing so.
Just asserting your opinion without, you know, any actual constructive
reasoning is unlikely to change the status quo. Many people have
asserted that First Strike should beat S:CE and Dodge for the last 14
years. That hasn't changed the status quo either.
Why not add something constructive to the discussion?
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> In message <1188062445.846287.230...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
even if it beats only s:ce and is still foiled by dodge it will be
good
first strike is extremaly pricy and rare ability which dont help you
in combat as it stand :/ it is one of the reason why quietus is
worthless as a discipline :(
Blooded Sand
> In message <1188062445.846287.230...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >Or maybe we just make Third, sorry, I meant First strike (of course),
> >really, you know, um, First strike? Sounds like a plan to me!
>
> There are, as has been discussed, numerous reasons for not doing so.
None of them any more reasoned or logical than my assertion above if
taken the way yo see it. Saying it has been like that since King Tut,
or it was original design intent or not reasoned, illustrated
arguments either...
> Just asserting your opinion without, you know, any actual constructive
> reasoning is unlikely to change the status quo. Many people have
> asserted that First Strike should beat S:CE and Dodge for the last 14
> years. That hasn't changed the status quo either.
>
> Why not add something constructive to the discussion?
> James Coupe
Sorry, as I was responding to about the third comment on printing a
card as opposed to changing the core rule which makes this mechanic
unusable, I kind of assumed that it would be obvious that I was
referring to the core rule change as opposed to the card print
solution. I also think that as I have made quite a few reasoned
arguments on this point before, they would be taken as noted.
But hey, I hear yah! :)
Must remember to try be more understandable in this medium.
Wookie813
>
> first strike is extremaly pricy and rare ability which dont help you
> in combat as it stand :/ it is one of the reason why quietus is
> worthless as a discipline :(
I agree. I started writing the Assamite clan newsletter a couple of
years back, and hit as many tournaments as I could with Assamite
decks. What I found was that most combat simply doesn't happen.
Oftentimes, combats are between a bleeding minion and the minion his
grandprey chose to block the bounce with. They agree to play nice.
Stealth or block fails will eliminhate most defensive combat the
Assamite player tries to get, excepting the intercepty builds, but
those are more about defensive combat and attrition. S:CE is rampant,
IME, and I have run Fatty Multi rush with 12x Psyche! and still not
had enough.
S:CE is a one card combat trumper that takes MINIMUM twice the
resources to counter (Rush pluse Psyche!, Strike pluse Psyche!, etc.).
For a clan that is supposed to be the boogie man in the night waiting
to pop your head off, there needs to be a way for them to effectively
and pre-emptively counter it, so that the still-slowest-ousting-
strategy can have a chance to work.
Blooded Sand
Amen.....
Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
land...... And there's the rub. They need to land. 2 cards for 1 S:CE?
Wookie, Get off the Alamout Black brother:) There the rush, the
manuever, the pre strike stuff, the actual frikkin strike, "oh, you
played an S:Ce card?" Sucks....
The most effective fix for this is very simple. An anti-S:CE card that
is pre emptive, NOT reactive. Psyche is reactive, and thus good in a
reactive combat deck mostly, except for permanent based combat (read
gun) deck. Pre emptive makes your payload efficient as it now has a
decent delivery gaurantor.
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
>land......
Really?
Doing a quick search for combat cards, Quietus, text: "strike".
Results: 15 cards. 5 of them aren't really strike cards.
Of the 10 that are:
- Dagon's Call isn't very scary.
- Blood of the Cobra is pretty trashy, because its superior sucks monkey
balls.
- Weakness is barely playable in most circles - some decks use
Discipline cards, but not many, and this really isn't worth it.
- Coagulate Blood is usable, but not very scary. Aside from the perk
against allies, it's not really scarier than a Thrown Gate
(which has its own perk - a maneuver).
- Blood Sweat isn't altogether bad, and unpreventable damage is kinda
cool, but it's not that scary. Relatively hard to, for example,
make it aggravated.
- Eruption of Vitae, second+ round, long range only, with a pretty poor
superior effect which involves screwing my own hand for little
gain. It is aggravated base damage, which is sort of scary, but
it's second round. First Strike or anti-S:CE or no, I need to
get to the second round reliably, and the Tremere should just
how shitty that is as a strategy.
- Vascular Explosion. Pretty expensive for not that scary an effect.
Hard to make it aggravated. If I were trying to do a couple of
these in a round, I'd need a really big vampire to afford that,
the additional strike, and the damage I might take.
- Exuding Blood. Long range only, but a fairly solid strike. It's free
after all. I'm still not that scared by it, though.
- Scorpion's Touch. Interesting long term effect, but wouldn't I rather
have the minion dead? Possibly annoying in some circles though.
That's nine so far. I'd rank Dagon's Call, BotC, Weakness, Eruption of
Vitae, Vascular Explosion, and Scorpion's Touch in the pretty definitely
"not scary" camp. The remaining three are: Coagulate Blood, Blood
Sweat, and Exuding Blood, all of which are usable. But do they scare
me? Selective Silence (QUI, 1 blood) lets you set range, of course, but
I'm still not sure I'm scared.
Put it another way, does the unpreventable damage scare me significantly
more than solid strikes from other disciplines? Are they really more
scary than Theft of Vitae (theft), Soul Burn/Blood Rage etc.? Is the
unpreventable nature of the damage that scary?
You get to Taste of Death, of course, which can be fairly scary. It's
long range only, but it's also cheap. And it's aggravated. And it's
first round. Not unpreventable, mind. But, I'd happily let you have
Taste of Death as scary.
Then, have a quick look at the other combat-y cards.
- Silence of Death - not bad for the maneuver, but the First Strike
isn't really helpful.
- Baal's Bloody Talons - Aggravated melee weapon strikes, and the weapon
burns. Significantly more scary than Wolf Claws? I'd say not.
- Blood Agony - Aggravated damage, but not scary, second round only.
- Wave of Lethargy - not really relevant.
- Thin Blood - others have discussed this card at length, and it's
probably overcosted at 1 blood, but too good at zero blood. But
not relevant to the issue of strikes, as it resolves when
played.
A quick scan through the remaining Quietus cards doesn't turn up
anything too relevant.
But, I'd say there are other clans with very scary options too. Breath
of the Dragon is pretty scary. Various Potence cards are probably as
solid in a "flung junk" way as the long range, non-agg cards. Daimoinon
has, say, Conflagration which is better than Taste of Death (any range).
Baal's Talons/Blood Agony are outclassed by a number of strike
modifiers, in my opinion. Even something like Visceratika is pretty
solid, combat-wise.
Honestly, I think Quietus's reputation as having "scary" strikes which
just don't land that much is over-stated. A pre-emptive anti-S:CE card
won't, IMO, suddenly turn Quietus into a lean, mean killing machine,
because it's not actually as scary as all that.
Orpheus
>> before
>> S:CE and not dodge. It might be hard to explain, but it would be better
>> for
>> the game IMHO (I can argument if need be).
>>
>> Orpheus
>
> So what would your argument be orpheus? Cos if its the "I can run away
> faster than your first strike" then that argument has no validity.
> Blood sweat/Assault rifle at first strike is gonna hose you buddy,
> sorry....
You misunderstand me, mate, we're on the same side ! ;-)
Im just saying that, although I'd love for FS to hose S:CE, I'd like it not
to hose dodge, because :
- the current superior effect of the FS cards would still be valid and
useful
- dodge is much inferior to S:CE as it is, and barely used
- dodge still wouldn't avoid the additionals, presses etc
- there are S:CE with dodge in inferior, sometimes it would be better to use
them rather than, say, Majesty if you could dodge and not S:CE a FS (variety
is good for the game)
And on the thematic side, I could get that even a fast strike would be
dodged by reflexes, while it would be harder / longer to just turn away and
run.
So here you are, and I'm advocating First Strikes that come before S:CE
effects, not dodge. ;-)
Orpheus
Orpheus
> balls.
I'm sorry to say because it comes from you, James, but that has got to be my
favourite quote of the day, probably the week. ;-)
Feel like picking it up for a sig... :-)
Orpheus, Monkey Balls King.
Blooded Sand
> In message <1188074490.248544.88...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> writes:
> >Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
> >land......
>
> Really?
>
> Doing a quick search for combat cards, Quietus, text: "strike".
> Results: 15 cards. 5 of them aren't really strike cards.
> - Blood Sweat isn't altogether bad, and unpreventable damage is kinda
> cool, but it's not that scary. Relatively hard to, for example,
> make it aggravated.
9 unpreventable in one round of combat is usually enough to dunk ANY
vamp, which in my eyes is pretty scary, if it is able to land. S:CE
hoses this.
> You get to Taste of Death, of course, which can be fairly scary. It's
> long range only, but it's also cheap. And it's aggravated. And it's
> first round. Not unpreventable, mind. But, I'd happily let you have
> Taste of Death as scary.
> - Baal's Bloody Talons - Aggravated melee weapon strikes, and the weapon
> burns. Significantly more scary than Wolf Claws? I'd say not.
> James Coupe
Baal's combo'd with a garotte is pretty sweet, however S:CE hoses you.
If Abd al Rashid went into combat with Arika, and she could not S:CE,
he could quite possibly and effectively bin her in one round of
combat, cos she is gonna sit there and do nothing. Combat monkey
against combat monkey is always entertaining, but combat against a a
big voter / bleeder, who suddenly finds out they cannot get away, ARE
going to lose 9 blood, and have no way of getting it prevented is
pretty trumpy combat.
Azel
> Hi everyone,
>
> Recent posts on the "Assamite problem" and on
> Rötschreck made me ponder if a rewriting of the
> First Strike rule could be advisable. This point may
> have been raised several times in the past, but I
> think it deserves additional consideration.
>
> "First Strike. A strike done with first strike is resolved
> before a normal strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is
> burned or sent to torpor by a strike done with first strike,
> his strike will not be resolved at all. If the opposing minion
> was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with
> first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his
> strike altogether. If both minions strike with first strike,
> then the strikes are resolved simultaneously.
> A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before
> a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and
> a dodge still cancels the effects of a strike done with first
> strike (see below)."
>
> My question is: would the game lose anything or would
> it actually benefit if *the last 4 lines of the above rule
> were removed* (along with similar clarification text in
> the dodge and combat ends rules)?
>
> Basically, First Strike would now really (proverbially?)
> resolve *first*, even *before S:CE and dodge*.
>
> This very simple change to the rules could have some
> good consequences, such as:
> -> Providing Assamites with viable pre-emptive anti-S:CE
> tech, with Shadow Feint (obf cel, free), Silence of Death
> (qui, only hand/melee, costs 1 blood) and Veil of SIlence
> (qui, reaction, only hand/melee, costs 1 blood), without
> extending this tech too much beyond the current availability
> (that is having pot, AUS, CEL or a Dog Pack);
> -> Making a whole bunch of underused/wallpaper cards
> (such as the one I just mentioned) worth playing.
>
> A negative aspect would be that Superior Shadow Feint
> and superior Veil of Silence become redundant (however
> they don't see much play nowadays anyway).
>
> Also, one may wonder that Muddled Vampire Hunter and
> the four vampires who have inherent First Strike (Ruth
> Ginley, Christopher Houghton, Jack Dawson and Elimelech)
> could become a wee bit too strong, but on the other hand
> abilities such as Oliver Thrace's already exist.
>
> I personally think that the advantages would overcome
> the disadvantages, and it could be a simple "one line"
> rewriting that could make combat (and Assamites!)more
> varied and effective, without having to rewrite cards and
> without causing worrying unbalance.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Ciao ciao,
> Emiliano
>
Hush now, elegant and intuitive solutions are not sensible. i play VTES,
don't you know, we need flow charts and stagnation! change is baaaad.
why? 'cuz that's not how we used to do it, so case closed.
;)
ps: seriously, haven't you read the argument for the past 14 years? it's
better to leave such things wallpaper than the horrifying fear that
another mechanic might actually be worthwhile. status quo draws
creativity and interest!
Salem
and the knock-on effects of first strike beating S:CE but not dodge
would be dodge seeing more play, and dodge becoming slightly more used
would mean that presses then become just that little bit more useful.
And I would like to see that.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Azel
the horror! you people speak madness! for god's sake, you're wanting to
make already printed cards useful! why don't you want to dream up corner
case hosers like we're supposed to do? has no one else got the memo that
convolution is our modus operandi? oh the humanity! my faith in the
world is collapsing...
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Aug 25, 11:56 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> - Blood Sweat isn't altogether bad, and unpreventable damage is kinda
>> cool, but it's not that scary. Relatively hard to, for example,
>> make it aggravated.
>
>9 unpreventable in one round of combat is usually enough to dunk ANY
>vamp, which in my eyes is pretty scary, if it is able to land. S:CE
>hoses this.
Pretty much true. But...
- that's four blood (3 x Blood Sweat, and a Blur, or similar), and four
cards. And you need QUI / CEL. Smallest vampire with that is
5. Smallest vampire that can multi-act is 7 (for on Joe Boot
Hill), or Tha on Parnassus. 4 blood is quite a lot to invest,
so you really need Taste of Vitae or, as appropriate, Provision
of the Silsila. Games of Instinct might be appropriate for some
vampires, although the Sabbat Assamites are 6-9 caps. And if
you're spending 3-4 blood on cards, you can't use that to fuel a
Minion Tap. And that's 5 cards. Plus a rush. Not so fun.
If Quietus had a "strike granter" (like V:TES Torn Signpost was
oddly re-worded to), you might well have a good option here.
i.e. "For the remainder of combat, this vampire can strike
to...." But 4 blood, 6 cards... not so fun.
- (you can, of course, try to mitigate some of the above using Path of
Blood, but that's not that easy either - it gets burned, it
competes for master slots against all the other useful master
cards you need, and so on.)
- look at the decks that do land their strikes. For example, a cel/pot
Immortal Grapple deck is a good example, right? Many such decks
do really well, with the caveat that it's really well at dunking
vampires. Yes, damage prevention does see play, but not all
that much. Bigger problems are usually Secure Haven, Obedience,
and S:CE (if you don't have an IG or whatever in hand). But you
don't, in general, hear IG combat decks saying "Argh, there's
too much damage prevention, I just can't win." So the
unpreventable nature of the damage isn't, really, that scary.
Is it significantly better than throwing some Sewer Lids, or
multiple punches at close range? It's just not going to be all
that much better than a deck dealing a similar amount of
preventable damage, because damage prevention just isn't all
that common.
>> - Baal's Bloody Talons - Aggravated melee weapon strikes, and the weapon
>> burns. Significantly more scary than Wolf Claws? I'd say not.
>
>Baal's combo'd with a garotte is pretty sweet, however S:CE hoses you.
It's a neat combo, but you need the equipment out already (Disguised
Weapon? Take an equip action). Am I significantly more scared than
aggro-poke + Amaranth? And it's a pool, which isn't so fun.
Note also that you don't need to play Baal's Bloody Talons until you
know if they're playing S:CE or not, if card efficiency concerns become
problematic.
>If Abd al Rashid went into combat with Arika,
Assuming she wasn't in a Secure Haven or playing Obedience, of course...
>and she could not S:CE,
>he could quite possibly and effectively bin her in one round of
>combat, cos she is gonna sit there and do nothing.
Possibly so. But so could a lot of other combat decks. Celerity /
Potence can often do this, and get to Disarm. As can a host of other
combat decks.
Let's just scroll down the list of recent Arika decks in the TWDA.
5 * Arika, 10 * Majesty.
2 * Arika, 13 * Majesty, 5 * Skin of Steel, 4 * Staredown.
4 * Arika, 14 * Majesty, 2 * Staredown.
3 * Arika, 5 * Rolling with the Punches.
4 * Arika, 5 * Majesty, 4 * Rolling with the Punches.
2 * Arika, a scattering of weapons, 1 * Dodge, 2 * Majesty, 1 * Glancing
Blow, 2 * Fake Out, 1 * Staredown.
2 * Arika, 5 * Obedience.
5 * Arika, 6 * Majesty, 6 * Rolling with the Punches.
Honestly, I don't think that unpreventable damage is really going to
cause all that great an upset here. These are the sorts of decks that
get used and, like I said, damage prevention is never the first thing a
combat deck complains about.
That's not to say that pre-emptive S:CE might not be good for the
*Assamites*. It might be. For example, I could see people doing things
like anti-S:CE, gun, blur, gun, Taste of Death, which would seem like a
plausibly good combo. What I can't really see, however, is it setting
the world of Quietus alight.
Blooded Sand
> Let's just scroll down the list of recent Arika decks in the TWDA.
>
> 5 * Arika, 10 * Majesty.
> 2 * Arika, 13 * Majesty, 5 * Skin of Steel, 4 * Staredown.
> 4 * Arika, 14 * Majesty, 2 * Staredown.
> 3 * Arika, 5 * Rolling with the Punches.
> 4 * Arika, 5 * Majesty, 4 * Rolling with the Punches.
> 2 * Arika, a scattering of weapons, 1 * Dodge, 2 * Majesty, 1 * Glancing
> Blow, 2 * Fake Out, 1 * Staredown.
> 2 * Arika, 5 * Obedience.
> 5 * Arika, 6 * Majesty, 6 * Rolling with the Punches.
As this argument is, for me, once again about pre-emptive S:CE for
smites/qui, lets look at the above. 8 decks. 57 S:CE cards. thats
roughly 15 S:CE cards per deck. Thats 15 foiled combats per deck. So
how does have Pre emptive anti S:CE not help the Assamites? The
Pprevent cards are ignorable as they will quite simply be ignored by
the vamps strikes.
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
in form of first strike or another
also existing quietus combat cards are not so scary - yes they are
quite good but many other non combat disciplines have better strikes
Yosar
wrote:
>In message <1188074490....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>>Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
>>land......
>
>Really?
>
>Honestly, I think Quietus's reputation as having "scary" strikes which
>just don't land that much is over-stated. A pre-emptive anti-S:CE card
>won't, IMO, suddenly turn Quietus into a lean, mean killing machine,
>because it's not actually as scary as all that.
I completly agree. And I play Assamites. BS is just too much
enthusiast to see some bad sides.;)
Y.
Blooded Sand
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:56:26 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
> >>land......
>
> >Really?
>
> >Honestly, I think Quietus's reputation as having "scary" strikes which
> >just don't land that much is over-stated. A pre-emptive anti-S:CE card
> >won't, IMO, suddenly turn Quietus into a lean, mean killing machine,
> >because it's not actually as scary as all that.
>
> I completly agree. And I play Assamites. BS is just too much
> enthusiast to see some bad sides.;)
>
> Y.
Heh. Some microscopically small grain of truth may possibly attach to
that statement. Then again it might not..... ;)
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:56:26 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
> >>land......
>
> >Really?
>
> >Honestly, I think Quietus's reputation as having "scary" strikes which
> >just don't land that much is over-stated. A pre-emptive anti-S:CE card
> >won't, IMO, suddenly turn Quietus into a lean, mean killing machine,
> >because it's not actually as scary as all that.
>
> I completly agree. And I play Assamites. BS is just too much
> enthusiast to see some bad sides.;)
>
> Y.
QTF
And i also play assamites!
yes - quietus have some nice cards but vast majority is weak/wallpaper
assamites to be scary in combat need way more combat card than other
clans and nice specials. Which is sad. Becouse people rather fear 4
cappacity dude with POT than 7 cappacity CEL QUI most fearsome
assassin in WoD.
With first strike beating S:CE quietus will be playable:
Silence of Death 1 blood
Weighted Walking Stick
Baal Bloody Talons 1 blood
Taste of Vitae
(it will need many cards and cost 2 blood to boot and dont beat dodge/
damage prevention and grapple)
Shadow Feint 1 blood
Selective Silence 0/1 blood
Taste of Daeth 1 blood
it is overpowered ? it is best combination but hardly game breaking -
cost tons of blood and need every part of the combo at hand - just
like more powerfull
Torn Signpost
Immortal Grapple
Blur 1 blood or Pursuit
Immortal Graple
Rolling with the punches 0/1 blood
Disarm
Carrion Crows
Aids from Bats
Apportation
Theft of Vitae
Gun 2 pool
Blur 1 blood or Pursuit
!Psyche
there are already stronger combat options and most of them use 1
discipline or 2 mostly. good combos with quietus require either only
quietus (1st one) or CEL/OBF/QUI (2nd one)
do anyone think they are overpowered with the change?
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Aug 26, 12:46 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> Let's just scroll down the list of recent Arika decks in the TWDA.
>>
>> 5 * Arika, 10 * Majesty.
>> 2 * Arika, 13 * Majesty, 5 * Skin of Steel, 4 * Staredown.
>> 4 * Arika, 14 * Majesty, 2 * Staredown.
>> 3 * Arika, 5 * Rolling with the Punches.
>> 4 * Arika, 5 * Majesty, 4 * Rolling with the Punches.
>> 2 * Arika, a scattering of weapons, 1 * Dodge, 2 * Majesty, 1 * Glancing
>> Blow, 2 * Fake Out, 1 * Staredown.
>> 2 * Arika, 5 * Obedience.
>> 5 * Arika, 6 * Majesty, 6 * Rolling with the Punches.
>
>As this argument is, for me, once again about pre-emptive S:CE for
>smites/qui, lets look at the above. 8 decks. 57 S:CE cards. thats
>roughly 15 S:CE cards per deck. Thats 15 foiled combats per deck. So
>how does have Pre emptive anti S:CE not help the Assamites? The
>Pprevent cards are ignorable as they will quite simply be ignored by
>the vamps strikes.
But the point you were making was that the Quietus strikes would be
"scary" if they were reliably landed.
The damage prevention cards are pretty much ignorable by most decks.
Yes, the Quietus deck using many Blood Sweats can ignore them entirely.
But most combat decks just get on and kill vampires, even with those
cards around. They just aren't that big a deal.
Given that, why is Blood Sweat so scary?
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> In message <1188128612.349502.268...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
every ofensive strike which lands is scary! take 3 unpreventable! - it
is scary for some minions, but overall it is not so great ...
bluedevil
> IME, and I have run Fatty Multi rush with 12x Psyche! and still not
> had enough.
>
> S:CE is a one card combat trumper that takes MINIMUM twice the
> resources to counter (Rush pluse Psyche!, Strike pluse Psyche!, etc.).
> For a clan that is supposed to be the boogie man in the night waiting
> to pop your head off, there needs to be a way for them to effectively
> and pre-emptively counter it, so that the still-slowest-ousting-
> strategy can have a chance to work.
Technically, for a Fatima multi-rush, Freak Drives and Forced Marches
accumulate with the Psyches! as anti-S:CE. Perhaps not completely 1:1
since the Freak presumes another available rush, but it still adds in
there. So if you ran 12 Psyches!, 8 Freaks, and 4 Forced Marches,
that's about 20 - 24 cards to stack against their supposed S:CE.
Of course Fatima Multirush has other problems that may make it nut-
punchy, but I don't think S:CE is one of them.
--
David Cherryholmes
bluedevil
> Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
> land...... And there's the rub. They need to land. 2 cards for 1 S:CE?
Thin Blood has them burning 3 blood for every S:CE effect they play,
and once they are down to 2 blood they can't play them anymore (except
for the rare free S:CE effects). I've been on the "Assamite's Need
Some Lovin'" bandwagon as long as just about anybody, but there *are*
some options there.
--
David Cherryholmes
Blooded Sand
> Given that, why is Blood Sweat so scary?
Cos its 3 damage, that if successfully inflicted, the opposing minion
has no way of dealing with.This does elevate it slightly above things
like x range damage.
Why is this not dangerous? How many decks use damage prevention?
Combat or not, there are more than one out there. and unpreventable
does sort of hose that combat defence. But hey, it makes no difference
in your opinion, or seemingly many others. So where is the harm then
in printing a pre emptive anti S:CE? If its not gonna make a huge
difference, it cannot possibly hurt anyone, right? (Sorry, really
really lame pun...)
bluedevil
> Given that, why is Blood Sweat so scary?
Because you are arguing from the premise that combat decks don't
really care about prevent. I don't think that's quite accurate. For
your argument to work, they must be able to reasonably say "oh well
I'll just get him next time." Which combat decks can do that? Pretty
much the weenie ones. So, yes, highly iterative decks don't care
about their trumps, as they just iterate right through it, have the
enormous pool cushion and even further actions to simultaneously go
backwards as needed. Kudos for them.
For any deck where each of your actions really must count, being able
to take prevent out of the equation can be a really good thing,
especially if you've already got most of the hitback issues resolved
(long range), and better still in some happy land where S:CE is no
longer a concern, either. That just leaves the blood management issue
and the card flow issue (we're talking about a 4 - 5 card chain here),
which is overhead enough, I think.
--
David Cherryholmes
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
fatima doesn't use quietus cards last time i checked :P
so she is not Assamite solution on S:CE problem
she just have good special and CEL for - hardly archetipical assamite
thin blood is fine (overcosted but it is another discussion) but:
- doesn't work in combat with ally
- doesnt prevent free "you are screwed" cards (IG, Earth Meld, FotM,
Staredawn)
Wookie813
> On Aug 25, 4:17 pm, Wookie813 <veknpont...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > IME, and I have run Fatty Multi rush with 12x Psyche! and still not
> > had enough.
>
> > S:CE is a one card combat trumper that takes MINIMUM twice the
> > resources to counter (Rush pluse Psyche!, Strike pluse Psyche!, etc.).
> > For a clan that is supposed to be the boogie man in the night waiting
> > to pop your head off, there needs to be a way for them to effectively
> > and pre-emptively counter it, so that the still-slowest-ousting-
> > strategy can have a chance to work.
>
> Technically, for a Fatima multi-rush, Freak Drives and Forced Marches
> accumulate with the Psyches! as anti-S:CE.
Exactly my point. Rush + Psyche! to counter a S:CE. Freak + Rush to
counter. Psyche! + Strike to counter. You have to have a Psyche! AND
the rest of your delivery on-hand. Fats MR is nice in that it is
whittled down to one Assault Rifle and rushes, but as noted, it
doesn't use QUI combat and she is a Star.
Alls I'm saying is, if it was worth it to use First Strike tech in
Fatty MR, would you? And what would make it "worth it"?
Kevin Walsh
> Silence of Death 1 blood
> Weighted Walking Stick
> Baal Bloody Talons 1 blood
> Taste of Vitae
>
> (it will need many cards and cost 2 blood to boot and dont beat dodge/
> damage prevention and grapple)
>
Stick/Blur/Psyche! (Possibly with some Thin Bloods thrown in.) It gets
around Strike: Combat Ends, Dodge and, to some degree, damage
prevention.
Kevin Walsh
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
it use 2 celerity card ? and no quietus card ? thin blood is poor man
pursuit sadly. it require superior celerity?it is hosed by ig and ani
and cel gun and damage prevention and s:ce ...
it is nice but is not assamite solution to play combat ...
Johannes Walch
I find it amusing that people keep on pointing out the goodness of
celerity while arguing that Assamites are not so bad. It´s not like
Quietus wasn´t the only thing that makes Assamites special ;-) (except
for being wankers that can´t even diablerize).
--
Johannes Walch
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> AcheronNightStal...@gmail.com schrieb:
If quietus give anything outside combat itr will be fine,if it will
boost slightly combat it will be fine
but right now we have "blank" mandatory discipline which doesn't help
us. it is like playing PRO and paying for superior VIC (considering
that vic is unusable in any deck).
F*** find any reliable deck using mainly quietus cards! - try make
even your own vampires (Create a Clan)
do You want quietus to still be wallpaper ? I find it amusing that
people keep on pointing that you can already use guns and celerity
(why bother with quiets - huh!)!
bluedevil
> Exactly my point. Rush + Psyche! to counter a S:CE. Freak + Rush to
> counter. Psyche! + Strike to counter. You have to have a Psyche! AND
> the rest of your delivery on-hand. Fats MR is nice in that it is
> whittled down to one Assault Rifle and rushes, but as noted, it
> doesn't use QUI combat and she is a Star.
Sure, it's not pre-emptive like IG is. I'm just saying that if you
are competing tit for tat against S:CE strike cards, bringing 20+
slots of "hose" to the fight leaves me pretty well satisfied; there
are far worse things to worry about for that particular deck.
And yeah, it doesn't really use Quietus. I was not trying to make any
kind of larger point, just disagreeing that that particular deck right
there is especially susceptible to S:CE.
> Alls I'm saying is, if it was worth it to use First Strike tech in
> Fatty MR, would you? And what would make it "worth it"?
Maybe. But if you are using guns Psyche! is really attractive. For
other Assamite decks.... totally.
--
David Cherryholmes
bluedevil
> thin blood is fine (overcosted but it is another discussion) but:
> - doesn't work in combat with ally
> - doesnt prevent free "you are screwed" cards (IG, Earth Meld, FotM,
> Staredawn)
Earth Meld obviously remains playable. IG isn't a problem per se
since you are presumably doing close range hands combat yourself
(hands for 1 becomes effectively "hands for 3, 2 unpreventable... not
too bad). Form of Mist (I guess that's what "FotM" is supposed to be)
loses the best part of its effect, "keep on truckin'", since that
costs a blood. And anyway, minions who are empty but who manage to
squeeze out a free S:CE are still probably not that much of a threat
(corner cases noted).
--
David Cherryholmes
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
well
i use with some succes WWS+Blur/Pursuit/Side Strike+!Psyche+(Baal's
Bloody Talons)
but mainly due to +1 S Joe "boot" Hill.
it is scerwed by ani combat,gun combat,ally combat,destroy weapons,
steal weapons, ig, s:ce, hitback
Thin Blood is too cornercase and costly .... if Silence of Death will
beat S:CE and help against hitback,steal weapons, shambling hordes,
ani combat the deck will have "option" to even oust his prey!
James Coupe
bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Aug 26, 11:22 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Given that, why is Blood Sweat so scary?
>
>Because you are arguing from the premise that combat decks don't
>really care about prevent. I don't think that's quite accurate. For
>your argument to work, they must be able to reasonably say "oh well
>I'll just get him next time." Which combat decks can do that? Pretty
>much the weenie ones.
Those being able to get multiple combats, yes. Or multiple rounds. The
Assamites can play Flash for a maneuver and a press like everyone else,
or they can play Psyche! and come back in. As can a lot of other decks,
because Telepathic Tracking sees play, as does Psyche, as do a number of
cards with presses as an alternative.
In the example given, an Arika deck is playing 6 whole prevent cards.
Is it really going to have two in hand at once to survive both rounds?
And a pony too? And lollipops? And ice cream?
It's just really not very scary.
John P.
> > 5 * Arika, 10 * Majesty.
> > 2 * Arika, 13 * Majesty, 5 * Skin of Steel, 4 * Staredown.
> > 4 * Arika, 14 * Majesty, 2 * Staredown.
> > 3 * Arika, 5 * Rolling with the Punches.
> > 4 * Arika, 5 * Majesty, 4 * Rolling with the Punches.
> > 2 * Arika, a scattering of weapons, 1 * Dodge, 2 * Majesty, 1 * Glancing
> > Blow, 2 * Fake Out, 1 * Staredown.
> > 2 * Arika, 5 * Obedience.
> > 5 * Arika, 6 * Majesty, 6 * Rolling with the Punches.
>
> As this argument is, for me, once again about pre-emptive S:CE for
> smites/qui, lets look at the above. 8 decks. 57 S:CE cards. thats
> roughly 15 S:CE cards per deck. Thats 15 foiled combats per deck. So
> how does have Pre emptive anti S:CE not help the Assamites? The
> Pprevent cards are ignorable as they will quite simply be ignored by
> the vamps strikes.
Um... 57 SC:E cards divided by 8 decks = 7-1/8, not 15.
Just saying.
John P.
bluedevil
> Those being able to get multiple combats, yes. Or multiple rounds. The
> Assamites can play Flash for a maneuver and a press like everyone else,
> or they can play Psyche! and come back in. As can a lot of other decks,
> because Telepathic Tracking sees play, as does Psyche, as do a number of
> cards with presses as an alternative.
Each one of those effects requires a card to iterate through, and card
space/card flow are particularly critical concerns in a combat deck.
Of course combat decks will have combat cards, and some of those will
probably be presses, but the fact that Blood Sweat does not lean on
any of them is still a point in its favor. I guess we will just agree
to disagree as to whether it's a minor point or a significant one.
Perhaps another way to come at the question of whether hosing prevent
matters is to turn it around: when some clan or sect gets access to
prevent that never had it before, are people generally excited about
it? Do they use it? I think Corporal Reservoir is one of the better
cards for BH vampires to play. That new disciplineless prevent card
seems popular, too.
Arika, and Ventrue in general, are not really the best examples to
examine, since I think most people would choose S:CE over prevent when
given the choice (perhaps with Obedience in some numbers). But there
are a lot of vampires out there with fortitude who don't have Presence
or Protean, and I think these vampires might rely on prevent. If you
play a Blood Sweat-based deck, you get to trump these guys.
> It's just really not very scary.
"Scary" is a bit loaded. I think it's a decent strike in and of
itself, although the deck overhead might still be a bit too high to
call it "good". It's also very nice in a mix of Blur and Taste of
Death, since you can choose to play it at inferior or superior to dial
in their blood to exactly zero prior to throwing the 2 agg, so it has
a place in decks that are going explicitly for the burn.
Kozkak
> - that's four blood (3 x Blood Sweat, and a Blur, or similar), and four
> cards. And you need QUI / CEL. Smallest vampire with that is
> 5. Smallest vampire that can multi-act is 7 (for on Joe Boot
> Hill), or Tha on Parnassus. 4 blood is quite a lot to invest,
> so you really need Taste of Vitae or, as appropriate, Provision
> of the Silsila. Games of Instinct might be appropriate for some
> vampires, although the Sabbat Assamites are 6-9 caps. And if
> you're spending 3-4 blood on cards, you can't use that to fuel a
> Minion Tap. And that's 5 cards. Plus a rush. Not so fun.
Okay then, what you think about 6 unpreventable damage for 1 blood,
they're not enough? Sure you need the rush but so the potence deck
you're saying is the really scary thing. Games of Instinct is a
possibility. I'm sure you're not counting Michael di Carlo because he
has only qui, but he is a 5-cap Assamite Sabbat vampire and I think is
possible to do GoI with a 6-7 cap.
I'm also sure that you're only making a case for non-sorcerors
Assamites, but it'd be interesting to steal 6 blood with no S:CE
possibility.
> - (you can, of course, try to mitigate some of the above using Path of
> Blood, but that's not that easy either - it gets burned, it
> competes for master slots against all the other useful master
> cards you need, and so on.)
Well the PoB is usually in the deck anyway, the difference is this
time, those "sucky" strikes will land.
> Note also that you don't need to play Baal's Bloody Talons until you
> know if they're playing S:CE or not, if card efficiency concerns become
> problematic.
That's right, but you still have to rush/psyche! until they're out of
S:CE, With pre-emptive anti-S:CE they don't get to play it, S:CE stays
in her hand and you get the possibility to kill them.
> Honestly, I don't think that unpreventable damage is really going to
> cause all that great an upset here. These are the sorts of decks that
> get used and, like I said, damage prevention is never the first thing a
> combat deck complains about.
Of course is not going to cause a great upset, because they have 14
S:CE to do avoid combat, they only pack prevention in case they can't
S:CE but what if they can't S:CE nor can prevent? You could land your
strikes maybe they're really bad, maybe we get a little fix on that
department when Lords of the Night gets out, because Assamites do need
better Quietus strikes but if you never land your strike it's the same
if it's weak or powerful.
Rafa
Kozkak
still I wanted to say that ;-)
Rafa
James Coupe
Scary wasn't my choice of term.
In message <1188074490....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>Quiteus has some of the scariest strike cards in the game. If they
>land......
And there's the rub. Some of their strikes are potentially usable, one
or two are pretty solid, and an anti-S:CE card might well put them at
the same level as some other combat decks - benefits here, problems
there, but roughly the same level as some other decks.[0]
However, this idea that Quietus strikes are so scary and only hampered
by the lack of S:CE is pretty much not true. Other decks have similar,
and sometimes better, options than many of their oh-so-scary strikes.
So they're really not so scary.
Blur and Taste of Death is a perfectly reasonable combo (although where
you get your other strikes from may be an issue), but I'm not
significantly more scared by that than all sorts of other combat combos.
[0] One obvious problem is that it can't do weenie combat so easily - or
star-vampire plus usable weenie helpers. Quietus is an exclusive
discipline, and so inherently suffers from a smaller pool of vampires to
select from and, in a number of cases, awkward vampire design, many of
them in group 2/WotC sets, of course. Star vampire multi-rush is a
possibility with a lot of raw power, but it has its own problems, of
course.
James Coupe
Kozkak <tecp...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> - that's four blood (3 x Blood Sweat, and a Blur, or similar), and four
>> cards. And you need QUI / CEL. Smallest vampire with that is
>> 5. Smallest vampire that can multi-act is 7 (for on Joe Boot
>> Hill), or Tha on Parnassus. 4 blood is quite a lot to invest,
>> so you really need Taste of Vitae or, as appropriate, Provision
>> of the Silsila. Games of Instinct might be appropriate for some
>> vampires, although the Sabbat Assamites are 6-9 caps. And if
>> you're spending 3-4 blood on cards, you can't use that to fuel a
>> Minion Tap. And that's 5 cards. Plus a rush. Not so fun.
>
>Okay then, what you think about 6 unpreventable damage for 1 blood,
>they're not enough? Sure you need the rush but so the potence deck
>you're saying is the really scary thing.
I'm not particularly saying that the Potence deck is the really scary
thing. What was claimed was that Quietus had some of the scariest
strikes in the game - if they land. But, as I said, I don't really see
that.
For example, Taste of Death, one of their best strikes, is outclassed by
Daimoinon and Vicissitude. Conflagration is strictly better, and Breath
of the Dragon is also better - you will take damage at close range, but
you can do that if the situation warrants, or just use it at long range
(like Taste of Death).
Similarly, if Quietus strikes are so scary, I'd like them to scare me
more than bread-and-butter combat decks. I've picked pot/cel because
it's a good example, but I could choose Celeritous Guns if you want.
For them, Psyche! works really well as anti-S:CE, since it's not like
they have to waste strike cards, and the additional strikes come after.
So not so bad, really.
I'm not specifically saying that those decks are scary. I'm saying that
the Quietus strikes aren't significantly more pokey or scary than those.
In many cases, the Quietus strikes are just trash. Some are decent, but
not especially more so than many other disciplines. At which point, if
Quietus has some of the scariest strikes in the game but they aren't
significantly more brutal/efficient/powerful/scary than other
disciplines, the statement about "scariest strikes" is either not true
or meaningless (because a half-dozen different archetypes have equally
scary strikes).
>Games of Instinct is a
>possibility. I'm sure you're not counting Michael di Carlo because he
>has only qui, but he is a 5-cap Assamite Sabbat vampire and I think is
>possible to do GoI with a 6-7 cap.
>I'm also sure that you're only making a case for non-sorcerors
>Assamites, but it'd be interesting to steal 6 blood with no S:CE
>possibility.
Well, this whole branch of discussion has been about Quietus as a combat
discipline, not Assamites with other disciplines.
Also, if you want to do Cel/Tha to steal 6 blood - Theft, Blur, Theft,
Theft - you need superior Celerity (two additional strikes) and superior
Thaumaturgy. Two vampires - Al-Ashrad, a 9 cap, and Ur-Shulgi, an 11
cap. Everyone else has tha, not THA. :-(
You can, of course, go for something like the Veneficorum, or
Thaumaturgy discipline cards, or something like that. But it's not the
greatest.
>> - (you can, of course, try to mitigate some of the above using Path of
>> Blood, but that's not that easy either - it gets burned, it
>> competes for master slots against all the other useful master
>> cards you need, and so on.)
>
>Well the PoB is usually in the deck anyway, the difference is this
>time, those "sucky" strikes will land.
It's true, the strikes would land with an anti-S:CE card. And that
would help to mitigate the blood cost, though it wouldn't help with the
card usage - Pot/Cel is more efficient if it's using Torn Signpost,
Celerity guns can be more efficient by using permanent strikes, and so
on.
However, in my experience, if a card like a Path is significantly
helping a deck, players will try to remove it. And the Assamites don't
have that great a line in intercept. There are Auspex Assamites,
certainly, and other possibilities. But... if you need four-six cards
per combat to start with, getting a steady flow of intercept when you
want it isn't the easy thing in the world.
>> Honestly, I don't think that unpreventable damage is really going to
>> cause all that great an upset here. These are the sorts of decks that
>> get used and, like I said, damage prevention is never the first thing a
>> combat deck complains about.
>
>Of course is not going to cause a great upset, because they have 14
>S:CE to do avoid combat, they only pack prevention in case they can't
>S:CE but what if they can't S:CE nor can prevent?
Well, that's really the point of the discussion. They can't S:CE
against other decks (or they can, but it's irrelevant because the deck
Psyche!s or Telepathically Tracks), and those decks can typically dunk
vampires in combat - even with the relatively meagre amounts of prevent
around. The Assamites, with an anti-S:CE card, could do both. But it
wouldn't be significantly more scary. Vampires already go to torpor
against preventable damage. Vampires would go to torpor against
preventable damage.
It's just not that much more scary than other strategies - which has
been the whole point of the discussion here.
>You could land your
>strikes maybe they're really bad, maybe we get a little fix on that
>department when Lords of the Night gets out, because Assamites do need
>better Quietus strikes but if you never land your strike it's the same
>if it's weak or powerful.
Sure. They might get a pony in the future too, but the discussion was
about Quietus as it stands, plus an anti-S:CE tool.
The claim here was that Quietus has some of the scariest strikes in the
game and that, therefore, if they could land them, Assamites doing
Quietus would be great. Problem is: the strikes they have aren't any
more scary than those available to other clans already. People don't
quake about many of those combat decks either, and an Assamite deck
which is about as effective as other combat decks isn't going to - as
other people have requested - make people cower with fear when they see
the masters of combat hit the table.
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Aug 26, 5:22 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Given that, why is Blood Sweat so scary?
>
>Cos its 3 damage, that if successfully inflicted, the opposing minion
>has no way of dealing with.This does elevate it slightly above things
>like x range damage.
>
>Why is this not dangerous? How many decks use damage prevention?
It's not a *bad* thing. What I'm saying is that it's not a huge boost
to the Assamites relative to other decks.
Using the TWDA, how many use damage prevention? Really, not that many,
and not that much. Running backwards through the TWDA, it's difficult
to spot any.
Note that if Assamite anti-prevent combat were to become more popular
(due to, for example, an anti-S:CE card coming around), it's unlikely
that the amount of prevent going around would go *up*.
>So where is the harm then
>in printing a pre emptive anti S:CE? If its not gonna make a huge
>difference, it cannot possibly hurt anyone, right? (Sorry, really
>really lame pun...)
I fear you're reading things I haven't been writing. :-(
At no point in this discussion have I said that the Assamites should or
shouldn't get an anti-S:CE card. What I have been saying is that there
are people - like you - who think that Quietus combat would be truly
feared by people if there was a usable anti-S:CE card, because Quietus
combat is inherently scary *except* for that S:CE hole. Quietus combat
just isn't that scary. An anti-S:CE card won't suddenly make a half-
dozen really crappy Quietus strikes good, and several of the rest are
solid, dependable strikes, but not exactly pants-wettingly scary.
Whether anti-S:CE should be given to them or not is a different
discussion. For my money, I'd prefer they didn't get it, but were
equally powerful and viable in combat via a somewhat different route.
However, that's not easy. As others have mentioned, in the past a
"Firstest Strike" type card was (apparently) PT-ed for
Assamites/Quietus, with an additional strike phase before the normal
strike phase, which was apparently quite abusive. And other options
appear to have been tried with limited success. At which point, we
might just give in and say "Okay, have anti-S:CE." My reticence to give
them anti-S:CE isn't out of any hatred for the Assamites, and I wouldn't
specifically object to them having it. It's just that I like seeing
different strategies work in different ways, and so have very different
pros and cons. If an alternative, equally viable, equally powerful
design can't be found, that's fine. If LSJ and the other designers
would prefer to just give them anti-S:CE, that's fine too. If things
are tried and don't work and anti-S:CE is the remaining option, that's
also fine. As I say, I just like seeing different options for different
clans, so that combat for Clan A isn't the same as combat for Clan B,
just with the names of cards swapped.
Blooded Sand
> Whether anti-S:CE should be given to them or not is a different
> discussion. For my money, I'd prefer they didn't get it, but were
> equally powerful and viable in combat via a somewhat different route.
> However, that's not easy. As others have mentioned, in the past a
> "Firstest Strike" type card was (apparently) PT-ed for
> Assamites/Quietus, with an additional strike phase before the normal
> strike phase, which was apparently quite abusive.
This is one thing I do not understand. How can this be so totally
broken? So combat gets a boost. This is good. So a discipline gets a
boost that otherwise is very underpowered. This is good. If it is very
strong, say on the level of IG, so what? Those type of cards are out
there already. Forever churning out cards that just do not make it up
the flagpole in terms of comparative power means I am wasting money
buying ANY new cards. Because if the old cards are better, (which they
are) whats the point of buying new ones? Sorry, side rant... :)
I hear that you feel that their strikes are not inherently more
powerful than anything else, but it also seems to me that you are
solely using the TWDA as a reference guide for what decks are built
out of. This, as pointed out by the Lasombra himself, means that you
are using 25% of the available decks as your measuring stick to say
how much prevent you tend to see in decks. I tend to see shitloads of
prevent, but maybe thats because I play in a more combat heavy meta
than you. And in combat heavy meta's, prevent is very very common.
Outside of that arena though, S:CE becomes far more important to deal
with, and thats where I have a problem with this.
(really should drink at least one coffee before posting, this makes so
little sense :)
bluedevil
> Scary wasn't my choice of term.
OK then we essentially agree on that point, as I don't think they are
in a special class of bad-assitude, either. I think, given all the
other defects they are saddled with, it would be OK if they were, but
that's another line of speculation than what we're dealing with here.
But the scary thing was just aside. I take it you don't have any
strong objections to the case I made for unpreventable being a
significant facet? I also wanted to add Leather Jackets to the list
of "things that indicate people care about prevention".
--
David Cherryholmes
Kozkak
> the Quietus strikes aren't significantly more pokey or scary than those.
> In many cases, the Quietus strikes are just trash. Some are decent, but
> not especially more so than many other disciplines. At which point, if
> Quietus has some of the scariest strikes in the game but they aren't
> significantly more brutal/efficient/powerful/scary than other
> disciplines, the statement about "scariest strikes" is either not true
> or meaningless (because a half-dozen different archetypes have equally
> scary strikes).
I think 6 unpreventable damage for 1 blood is still good. I think the
problem is when we try to define "scary". You're giving a lot of
examples about combat. Let's take a look to a POT deck with maneuvers.
Maybe that deck is really scary if you have a Majesty deck. But then
someone else says "Nah, POT is not really scary, we see a lot of PRO
decks that just do Flesh of Marble and agg damage and the POT deck
goes down real fast, The really scary thing is the other PRO deck";
some one else says "Not really a problem because with lots of Majesty
they cannot do a thing without potence" "The really scary thing are
Cel guns", "But they have to waste actions to get the guns and even if
they got it via Concealed/Disguised the POT deck just grapples them
and they can't do a thing, so the really scary deck is a POT deck with
maneuvers". Maybe the best thing to say is that depends what you're
dealing with you're more or less scary.
> Also, if you want to do Cel/Tha to steal 6 blood - Theft, Blur, Theft,
> Theft - you need superior Celerity (two additional strikes) and superior
> Thaumaturgy. Two vampires - Al-Ashrad, a 9 cap, and Ur-Shulgi, an 11
> cap. Everyone else has tha, not THA. :-(
>
> You can, of course, go for something like the Veneficorum, or
> Thaumaturgy discipline cards, or something like that. But it's not the
> greatest.
So, you're saying that THA/CEL is not a good strategy? a posible one?
that since only two vampires have both disciplines at superior such a
deck can't work?. Wouldn't that deck be better with a pre-emptive anti-
S:CE?
> It's true, the strikes would land with an anti-S:CE card. And that
> would help to mitigate the blood cost, though it wouldn't help with the
> card usage - Pot/Cel is more efficient if it's using Torn Signpost,
> Celerity guns can be more efficient by using permanent strikes, and so
> on.
Assuming every other strike is so much better than Quietus. The
question still remains: to be able to land strikes, even if they're
really, really, really crappy ones is not going to make those strikes
and the discipline better?
> However, in my experience, if a card like a Path is significantly
> helping a deck, players will try to remove it. And the Assamites don't
> have that great a line in intercept. There are Auspex Assamites,
> certainly, and other possibilities. But... if you need four-six cards
> per combat to start with, getting a steady flow of intercept when you
> want it isn't the easy thing in the world.
Of course, they'd try to burn it, but the point I was trying to make
here is the same: you want to play Assamites, and you have those
strikes, and you have the necessity of the PoB, and other players are
always burning it, isn't it better to make that path be worth the 1-2
turns it will be in play and not just play the path, rush + maneuver +
sucky strike then Majesty, then your prey removes your path ;-(
> Well, that's really the point of the discussion. They can't S:CE
> against other decks (or they can, but it's irrelevant because the deck
> Psyche!s or Telepathically Tracks), and those decks can typically dunk
> vampires in combat - even with the relatively meagre amounts of prevent
> around. The Assamites, with an anti-S:CE card, could do both. But it
> wouldn't be significantly more scary. Vampires already go to torpor
> against preventable damage. Vampires would go to torpor against
> preventable damage.
Is not really irrelevant, because 14 S:CE clog the hand better if you
don't actually get to play them and you don't waste unnecesary
resources unless you want. Here you can say, "no, because you can have
guns and you don't waste anything" or "POT are going to bring them
down" even if it takes them 3 turns in case they happen to get their
few prevention cards but when they do prevent or even prevent a lot, -
I know, I know prevention is only included in 20% of the vampire based
decks in the TWDA last year- but when they do prevent, that Blood
Sweat is not really bad, and not getting S:CEed is also a good thing.
> It's just not that much more scary than other strategies - which has
> been the whole point of the discussion here.
Not scarier than anything else (which I didn't say) but still good to
get a significant boost with a pre-emptive anti-S:CE, because you're
not only saying that Quietus strikes are not scarier than most, you're
also saying that Quietus strikes couldn't get significantly better
with an anti-S:CE tool.
Ok, so we can move forward, Quietus strikes are not scarier than any
other, right? granted
A discipline that lands its blows compared to another that doesn't,
assuming they are equally good or equally bad, is not better?
Rafa
James Coupe
Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Aug 28, 11:09 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Whether anti-S:CE should be given to them or not is a different
>> discussion. For my money, I'd prefer they didn't get it, but were
>> equally powerful and viable in combat via a somewhat different route.
>> However, that's not easy. As others have mentioned, in the past a
>> "Firstest Strike" type card was (apparently) PT-ed for
>> Assamites/Quietus, with an additional strike phase before the normal
>> strike phase, which was apparently quite abusive.
>
>This is one thing I do not understand. How can this be so totally
>broken?
Apparently it was found to be so, during playtesting. You'd need to ask
LSJ and/or the playtesters to divulge the problems they found. For
example, there may also have been a particular quirk of the card that
wasn't easily fixable. Not having the card text available, I couldn't
say. However:
>So combat gets a boost. This is good. So a discipline gets a
>boost that otherwise is very underpowered. This is good. If it is very
>strong, say on the level of IG, so what?
"Boost" and "strong" are not the same as "abusive", and I've been told
by players that it was found to be abusive.
Problems/features that I can identify from the general principle of
"firstest strike", without any further restrictions/quirks:
- it beats S:CE and Dodge, which is probably a feature
- this minion is protected from the opponent's strike, making it very,
very trumpy
- I don't get hit by a Potence strike
- I don't get threatened by Wolf Claws
- Carrion Crows come nowhere near me
- I laugh at Ivory Bow
- my Shade won't hurt you
- I don't take any hand damage.
For many practical purposes, you just can't hit me at all. You can't
defend against me, and you can't get me through hitback in that combat.
Note that, though a very different card, this is also one of the
problems that Thoughts Betrayed had, prior to errata/reprinting. It
could empower Dominate combat (say, Dom/Tha or Dom/Pot) by removing the
defence used by players, but it could also make you nigh invulnerable.
Trump combat that takes out many possibilities of defence but *also*
takes out most of the hitback possibilities may well cause considerable
problems.
You go into combat with someone using IG, they can still get into
problems facing Carrion Crows and Claws. (Indeed, this can be
particularly problematic for them, when using weenie combat.) What
would you do against Firstest Strike?
It maybe that no significant balancing factor could be found to level
such a thing. Make it only Contracted minions? Clandestine is easy
enough. Once per turn? Okay, I can still take out a minion with
absolute impunity each turn.
Again, without the card text, it is hard to see precisely what was wrong
with it. But it certainly doesn't seem the easiest effect in the world
to balance.
>I hear that you feel that their strikes are not inherently more
>powerful than anything else, but it also seems to me that you are
>solely using the TWDA as a reference guide for what decks are built
>out of.
No, I'm not. You brought up the example of taking out Arika. I went
looking for good Arika decks.
I've also been describing typical pot/cel decks, gun decks, sideways
references to Breath of the Dragon being used (or Conflagration etc.),
and so on.
However, it is also notable that if some of these decks are making
finals (which they are), the Assamite decks will still need to beat them
when they both make the finals.
>I tend to see shitloads of prevent, but maybe thats because I play in a
>more combat heavy meta than you.
Combat heavy metas will end up playing more combat and combat defence,
yes. This is not the typical experience at large, blind tournaments,
however, because combat doesn't win (easily), so people play something
else - weenie Auspex walls, stealth and bleed, Arika, whatever.
James Coupe
<ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes:
>Problems/features that I can identify from the general principle of
>"firstest strike", without any further restrictions/quirks:
>
>- it beats S:CE and Dodge, which is probably a feature
>- this minion is protected from the opponent's strike, making it very,
> very trumpy
> - I don't get hit by a Potence strike
> - I don't get threatened by Wolf Claws
> - Carrion Crows come nowhere near me
> - I laugh at Ivory Bow
> - my Shade won't hurt you
> - I don't take any hand damage.
>
>For many practical purposes, you just can't hit me at all. You can't
>defend against me, and you can't get me through hitback in that combat.
Caveat: assuming you can send me to torpor on the first strike, which
with Taste of Death or whatever isn't that unlikely.
James Coupe
bluedevil <david.che...@gmail.com> writes:
>But the scary thing was just aside. I take it you don't have any
>strong objections to the case I made for unpreventable being a
>significant facet? I also wanted to add Leather Jackets to the list
>of "things that indicate people care about prevention".
It's a potentially significant facet to some decks. I quite like damage
prevention, and have been trying to design a few decks to take advantage
of it so I can hitback at the same time. Generally, I'd say thatit
works better alongside hitback, or as a defence sideline alongside
offensive combat (e.g. throwing in a few Sideslips or Glancing Blow
alongside your pot/cel deck, to avoid being pwned in the face by the
Gangrel) than as a pure defensive option. (Also, Leather Jacket seems
to get more attention for the "take all the equipment, and untap at the
end of turn" trick.)
However, in the more general sense, damage prevention is WAY down on my
list of "Things that trouble combat decks". S:CE comes high up. The
ability to oust does too. Pool gain and pool defence are problematic.
The fact that they can't utilize the master phase so easily or reliably,
because their increased card flow means they may jam on master cards if
they try, is sometimes annoying - particularly given that some master
cards would let them patch over their weaknesses. (Given that the
Assamites sometimes try out various Contracts etc., this isn't an
entirely insignificant point for them.) Trump combat and maneuvers can
be significant too, and a number of playgroups seem to have tried out
incidential maneuvers as a defence to combat, because it's pot/cel
combat they see more often. (Or pot/obf, or something.) That it's
often Celerity additional strike combat[0] that people are often used to
seeing in its various incarnations (IG pot/cel, guns etc.), minor damage
prevention isn't all *that* great, until you can prevent all damage from
strikes for the round, so I don't care so much outside FOR.
I don't doubt that damage prevention can be a significant facet of some
games. Similarly, I don't doubt that bleed reduction can be a
significant facet of some games - but bleed decks do just fine anyway,
and don't particularly care about it when building the deck, picking the
tools that will help them most generally (say, something for responsible
stealth-bleed is about a billion times more important than Telepathic
Counter). And analagously, I wouldn't rag on a bleed card that was
somehow impervious to Telepathic Counter or Protected Resources - but I
wouldn't overvalue it, either.
[0] The Blood Brothers can get additional strikes too.
AcheronNi...@gmail.com
> In message <xsuzBL0ljn1GF...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe
you are wrong - first - proposed firstest strike doesn't beat dodge
second - to play firstest strike which beats dodge and taste of death
you must have CEL OBF QUI/qui which means high cap with all combat
disciplines.
thrid - you need to PAY 3 blood and use 3 cards - did you understand
it?
atomweaver
news:xsuzBL0l...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk:
My own $0.02, at the time of FN playtest was (sketchy recollection alert!
This was 6+ years ago) that Firstest Strike resulted in the natural meta-
game response as being either 1) play Firstest Strike yourself, or 2) play
damage prevention. Considering the historically effective decks of the
time, I saw it as pushing the game further in favor of Ventrue (who were
sitting pretty with Law Firm and Ven-obf options), and to the detriment of
clans without prevention (anyone without For). Making fortitude that
important didn't seem sensible, at all... But yeah, the fact that James
points out here (firstest strike with agg is basically also a dodge of the
opposing minion's strike) is an even stronger argument.
DaveZ
bluedevil
> Apparently it was found to be so, during playtesting. You'd need to ask
> LSJ and/or the playtesters to divulge the problems they found.
I would just note that this was playtested and measured during the
earliest, most conservative era of LSJ's card design. Maybe it's been
tested again more recently and still found to be problematic, though.
I haven't been a playtester in a while.
> - it beats S:CE and Dodge, which is probably a feature
> - this minion is protected from the opponent's strike, making it very,
> very trumpy
Yep, it would be trumpy combat for midcap (or higher) combat decks
with no ousting discipline and no defensive discipline. While the
combat may indeed be trumpy, I doubt such decks as a whole would be
due to all the other things an actual game-winning deck has to manage.
--
David Cherryholmes
Anthony Coleman
> Yep, it would be trumpy combat for midcap (or higher) combat decks
> with no ousting discipline and no defensive discipline. While the
> combat may indeed be trumpy, I doubt such decks as a whole would be
> due to all the other things an actual game-winning deck has to manage.
This seems to me to be a problem when looking at improvements for the
Assamites - if you try to make them compensate for lack of defense and
ousting strength with very trumpy combat, any game with Assamites on
the table is going to be a very skewed, unbalanced affair.
James Coupe
AcheronNi...@gmail.com writes:
>On 30 Sie, 10:40, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> In message <xsuzBL0ljn1GF...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe
>> >defend against me, and you can't get me through hitback in that combat.
>>
>> Caveat: assuming you can send me to torpor on the first strike, which
>> with Taste of Death or whatever isn't that unlikely.
>you are wrong
You aren't reading the thread properly.
>- first - proposed firstest strike doesn't beat dodge
The card that was playtested, which was under discussion, *did* do that.
From my earlier post:
>> Whether anti-S:CE should be given to them or not is a different
>> discussion. For my money, I'd prefer they didn't get it, but were
>> equally powerful and viable in combat via a somewhat different route.
>> However, that's not easy. As others have mentioned, in the past a
>> "Firstest Strike" type card was (apparently) PT-ed for
>> Assamites/Quietus, with an additional strike phase before the normal
>> strike phase, which was apparently quite abusive.
See also atomweaver's post confirming the existence of this card in PT
in days gone by
.
>thrid - you need to PAY 3 blood and use 3 cards - did you understand
>it?
I understood you're talking about something that wasn't under
discussion, yes.
James Coupe
Depending on precisely how costly it is, and whether it's restricted to
certain strikes, or certain conditions, I could see people potentially
trying to acquire Quietus via (say) Infernal Familiar/Infernal Pact, or
just discipline cards. This could, in itself, make it difficult to
balance. What happens when it starts turning up in multi-rush decks?
And, of course, the Assamites have some interesting multi-rush
capability. Assuming superior Quietus, Fatima and Tariq can both play
it - and both have reasonably solid multi-rush options. I'm not sure
that splashing in a few Anti-S:CE cards into those decks wouldn't be
workable - though again, that might do more to help non-Quietus Assamite
strikes (guns, Rowan Rings, whatever) than Quietus itself.
It would very much depend on precisely how the card worked, however.
Kozkak
> Depending on precisely how costly it is, and whether it's restricted to
> certain strikes, or certain conditions, I could see people potentially
> trying to acquire Quietus via (say) Infernal Familiar/Infernal Pact, or
> just discipline cards. This could, in itself, make it difficult to
> balance. What happens when it starts turning up in multi-rush decks?
> And, of course, the Assamites have some interesting multi-rush
> capability. Assuming superior Quietus, Fatima and Tariq can both play
> it - and both have reasonably solid multi-rush options. I'm not sure
> that splashing in a few Anti-S:CE cards into those decks wouldn't be
> workable - though again, that might do more to help non-Quietus Assamite
> strikes (guns, Rowan Rings, whatever) than Quietus itself.
But as you said, acquiring a discipline through just discipline cards
and even via other things (in this case Infernal Familiar, in your
previous example, Veneficorum) is very unreliably.
But you could be right about multi-rush, it would be difficult to
balance it. Assamites multi-rush, tend to be effective and can
torporise/burn a lot of vampires, but they still have difficulties
with ousting and especially defense, though. And I don't think even
such a card could help them in those departments as Dave says. Even
with firstest strike, there aren't so many great strikes in Quietus,
but could help a lot to guns. But this could also encourage people to
use more prevention effects rather to rely every time on just S:CE.
> It would very much depend on precisely how the card worked, however.
Yes, Indeed. The problem is that we don't know exactly how it worked
and how it was abusive. But it's interesting to realise that that
playtesting was on FN era. Maybe they have figured something out
Rafa
James Coupe
Kozkak <tecp...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Depending on precisely how costly it is, and whether it's restricted to
>> certain strikes, or certain conditions, I could see people potentially
>> trying to acquire Quietus via (say) Infernal Familiar/Infernal Pact, or
>> just discipline cards. This could, in itself, make it difficult to
>> balance. What happens when it starts turning up in multi-rush decks?
>> And, of course, the Assamites have some interesting multi-rush
>> capability. Assuming superior Quietus, Fatima and Tariq can both play
>> it - and both have reasonably solid multi-rush options. I'm not sure
>> that splashing in a few Anti-S:CE cards into those decks wouldn't be
>> workable - though again, that might do more to help non-Quietus Assamite
>> strikes (guns, Rowan Rings, whatever) than Quietus itself.
>
>But as you said, acquiring a discipline through just discipline cards
>and even via other things (in this case Infernal Familiar, in your
>previous example, Veneficorum) is very unreliably.
I tend to think it's unreliable for winning games with. There are a
variety of reasons for this:
1) I'm one of the people who tends to think - if I have a Sudden
Reversal (or whatever) to hand - about reversing discipline
masters, if they're weird ones. Putting Pro on a Malkavian or
Fortitude on a Brujah worries me more than, say, Obfuscate on a
Setite.
2) If you're using up master slots, you're possibly doing less towards
the useful goal of winning and surviving - things like Blood
Doll, Minion Tap, or whatever.
3) You have the difficulty of getting them in good time. If you get
them all at the start, you're annoyed. If you don't get them,
you're annoyed. Getting them scattered through the right parts
of the game does happen, but that's not a given.
So, there are reasons why doing so isn't the best or most sensible thing
in the world to do in many circles. Obviously, there can be specific
reasons for it all. Some people like The Sargon Fragment for the
recycler, and the NEC is just an incidental benefit, say. Or you might
be playing some sort of interesting breed deck and, therefore, have a
bunch of discipline masters on hand which are usually being cycled by
actions, but on a given turn, playing the copy of Abombwe on a vampire
is the lesser evil, hand-jam wise. Or you might be trying to play
disciplines on other vampires, to spank them when stealing them, or
something. Again, taking the lesser evil might suggest...
However, what I don't doubt is that people can and do play these sorts
of combos, for whatever reason. Is it the most effective strategy for
winning? No. Is it a good strategy for winning? Maybe, maybe not.
Will they, by and large, get the abilities they wanted at some point and
do some spanking before dying? Assuming the deck isn't a total dog's
breakfast, quite possibly.
That it's trump combat means that it might well do some serious
nastiness before dying. I mean, there are many combat decks out there
that don't win but can make someone else lose by rushing them. There is
the possibility of making combat decks that *still* don't win, but
which can be even more effective at making someone else lose, which
probably isn't the best of things to be doing. In general, people don't
win just by smashing vampires *but* players get a sense of satisfaction
out of doing so, because they've played their combat deck the way they
wanted to.
Again, without specific card text, it's hard to say how easy it would be
to "borrow" in other decks. Of course, there's always the eternal
bogey-man, Ian Forestal.
>> It would very much depend on precisely how the card worked, however.
>
>Yes, Indeed. The problem is that we don't know exactly how it worked
>and how it was abusive. But it's interesting to realise that that
>playtesting was on FN era. Maybe they have figured something out
If something had been figured out with that specific card, I'd have
probably expected to see it in KMW. I would tend to imagine that if it
couldn't be sorted out by then, it wasn't really worth it. Unless it
was transmuted into using something other mechanic that exists now but
didn't then, although there doesn't seem to have been that much relevant
since.