[LSJ] Owain Evans and Succubus Club

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Erol

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Jan 25, 2004, 9:47:12 AM1/25/04
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Hi,

on Saturday we had a tournament and a ruling problem arised, Player A wanted
to deal his "Owain Evans, The Wanderer" with a Succubus Club to Player B.
The question was, does Owain grant both Methuselahs(what a word!!!) his
Special Ability, in Player's A Untap Phase =>

Owain Evans, The Wanderer [BH:U2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ventrue antitribu
Group: 3
Capacity: 8
Discipline: cel pre AUS DOM FOR
Sabbat: During any Methuselah's untap phase, if Owain is ready, you may move
a blood from the blood bank to a vampire that Methuselah controls.

Thanx in advance

Erol


Ulugh Beg II

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Jan 25, 2004, 11:20:02 AM1/25/04
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You always refers to the controller of the card, so only the Methusalah
controlling Owain may use his special ability.
In your case, after he was traded to Meth B with the Succubus club, Meth
B could use it during any untap phase.


LSJ

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Jan 25, 2004, 1:53:44 PM1/25/04
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Erol wrote:
> Hi,
>
> on Saturday we had a tournament and a ruling problem arised, Player A wanted
> to deal his "Owain Evans, The Wanderer" with a Succubus Club to Player B.
> The question was, does Owain grant both Methuselahs(what a word!!!) his
> Special Ability, in Player's A Untap Phase =>

Yes. Player A can move a blood to a vampire A controls before the trade.
And Player B can move a blood to a vampire A controls after the trade.

> Owain Evans, The Wanderer [BH:U2]
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Ventrue antitribu
> Group: 3
> Capacity: 8
> Discipline: cel pre AUS DOM FOR
> Sabbat: During any Methuselah's untap phase, if Owain is ready, you may move
> a blood from the blood bank to a vampire that Methuselah controls.
>
> Thanx in advance
>
> Erol
>
>

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Joshua Duffin

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Jan 26, 2004, 4:21:25 PM1/26/04
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:401410B8...@white-wolf.com...

> Erol wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > on Saturday we had a tournament and a ruling problem arised, Player
A wanted
> > to deal his "Owain Evans, The Wanderer" with a Succubus Club to
Player B.
> > The question was, does Owain grant both Methuselahs(what a word!!!)
his
> > Special Ability, in Player's A Untap Phase =>
>
> Yes. Player A can move a blood to a vampire A controls before the
trade.
> And Player B can move a blood to a vampire A controls after the trade.

Really? Why? Owain uses the "during X do Y means once" template. Is
the "once" reset because the "you" in Owain Evans' text is now referring
to a different Methuselah? I'm not sure that's intuitive. It seems at
least as sensible, to me, for "once" to mean "once per copy of the
card," rather than once per "you" in "you may".


Josh

U control
U control
(Y control?)


LSJ

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Jan 26, 2004, 8:27:38 PM1/26/04
to

Correct on all counts.
Those factors, taken together, result in the ruling that, yes, he can be
activated once by each Methuselah who controls him in a given untap phase.

Joshua Duffin

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Jan 27, 2004, 8:29:18 AM1/27/04
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:4015BE8...@white-wolf.com...

> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > news:401410B8...@white-wolf.com...

[re use of Owain Evans' ability by two Methuselahs in a single untap
phase]

> > > Yes. Player A can move a blood to a vampire A controls before the
> > > trade.
> > >
> > > And Player B can move a blood to a vampire A controls after the
trade.
> >
> > Really? Why? Owain uses the "during X do Y means once" template.
Is
> > the "once" reset because the "you" in Owain Evans' text is now
referring
> > to a different Methuselah? I'm not sure that's intuitive. It seems
at
> > least as sensible, to me, for "once" to mean "once per copy of the
> > card," rather than once per "you" in "you may".
>
> Correct on all counts.
> Those factors, taken together, result in the ruling that, yes, he can
be
> activated once by each Methuselah who controls him in a given untap
phase.

With this interpretation of "during X do Y", it seems like you should be
able to untap a single Fida'i as many times (during your untap phase) as
you have eligible Assamites to burn blood to untap it?

"[During your untap phase,] any ready Assamite you control with capacity
above 6 can burn 1 blood to untap this Fida'i."

This seems to contradict the ruling of 20-Jun-2001 that a particular
Fida'i can *not* be untapped multiple times during the untap phase.
Though it's possible that the intent of that ruling was that a
particular Fida'i couldn't be untapped more than once by a single 7-cap
Assamite, not that it couldn't be untapped more than once with multiple
7-cap Assamites.


Josh

unpresidented


LSJ

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Jan 27, 2004, 11:12:46 AM1/27/04
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Joshua Duffin wrote:
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:4015BE8...@white-wolf.com...
>>Joshua Duffin wrote:
>>>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
>>>news:401410B8...@white-wolf.com...
>>
> [re use of Owain Evans' ability by two Methuselahs in a single untap
> phase]
>
>>>>Yes. Player A can move a blood to a vampire A controls before the
>>>>trade.
>>>>And Player B can move a blood to a vampire A controls after the trade.
>
>>>Really? Why? Owain uses the "during X do Y means once" template. Is
>>>the "once" reset because the "you" in Owain Evans' text is now referring
>>>to a different Methuselah? I'm not sure that's intuitive. It seems at
>>>least as sensible, to me, for "once" to mean "once per copy of the
>>>card," rather than once per "you" in "you may".
>>
>>Correct on all counts.
>
> With this interpretation of "during X do Y", it seems like you should be
> able to untap a single Fida'i as many times (during your untap phase) as
> you have eligible Assamites to burn blood to untap it?
>
> "[During your untap phase,] any ready Assamite you control with capacity
> above 6 can burn 1 blood to untap this Fida'i."

Indeed it would. Thanks for digging that up.

> This seems to contradict the ruling of 20-Jun-2001 that a particular
> Fida'i can *not* be untapped multiple times during the untap phase.

It would. So it seems one of them has to go.
REVERSAL: Owain's ability can only be used once each untap, even if control
of Owain changes during that untap phase.

atomweaver

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Jan 28, 2004, 9:05:54 AM1/28/04
to
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<40168DFE...@white-wolf.com>...

Josh Duffin; aka MacGruff the Crime Dog of the VTES rules set.

Way to sniff it out, Josh!

;-)

DZ
Atom Weaver

spinney99

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Jan 28, 2004, 12:31:14 PM1/28/04
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<40168DFE...@white-wolf.com>...
==
this now seems less intuitive to me. the change of "you" seems like
it should allow the new "you" to take advantage of "in-play card
ability A" whether or not the old "you" had used it. more similar to
moving aaron's feeding razor between minions with heidelberg and
hunting again, than the fida'i example, (even though the "you" doesn't
change in this example either.) a better example _might_ be:
Ingrid Russo uses her local 1111 to take a +1 stealth action to put 2
blood from the bank onto Billy. Billy calls a successful disputed
territory, giving control of the local 1111 to the methuselah with an
"into the fire"'d (sabbat) Anatole, and the local is {associated
with/put onto} her. since Anatole's controller also has a Madness
Network in play, Anatole then wants to use "her" local 1111 to put
blood onto Korah, although it's been used once this minion phase...
??
aspiring fly looking for ointment,
spinney sporemage
"SAUDI ARABIAN PILOTS ATTACK U.S. BUSH BLAMES OTHERS. Two and a half
years of film at 11."

Joshua Duffin

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Jan 28, 2004, 5:19:30 PM1/28/04
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"spinney99" <spore...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:27f52a52.04012...@posting.google.com...

> this now seems less intuitive to me. the change of "you" seems like
> it should allow the new "you" to take advantage of "in-play card
> ability A" whether or not the old "you" had used it. more similar to
> moving aaron's feeding razor between minions with heidelberg and
> hunting again, than the fida'i example, (even though the "you" doesn't
> change in this example either.) a better example _might_ be:
> Ingrid Russo uses her local 1111 to take a +1 stealth action to put 2
> blood from the bank onto Billy. Billy calls a successful disputed
> territory, giving control of the local 1111 to the methuselah with an
> "into the fire"'d (sabbat) Anatole, and the local is {associated
> with/put onto} her. since Anatole's controller also has a Madness
> Network in play, Anatole then wants to use "her" local 1111 to put
> blood onto Korah, although it's been used once this minion phase...
> ??

I see what you're saying, but the reasoning behind Owain only working
once per untap (even if his controller changes) is that the "during X do
Y" template limits the ability of Y to be done to just once during the
time period X. That is, the limit is on the card's ability only being
used once, not on the person/thing that can activate the card. If it
were the other way around, cards that have abilities activated by things
other than themselves (that are written with the "during X do Y"
template) could be activated multiple times if there are multiple
activators available. This was ruled not to be possible for Fida'i, so
it's also not possible for Owain Evans.

The difference between this and getting multiple uses out of an Aaron's
Feeding Razor is that the Razor doesn't have a "during X do Y" ability.
It has an "always on" type ability. Likewise, Local 1111 doesn't have a
"during X do Y" ability; it has an action-granting ability.

There are actually not very many cards that have the kind of "during X
do Y" abilities that allow this exact situation to arise - many of them
(Hunting Grounds for example, or Alamut) are only usable at a specific
time when it would already not be possible for anyone else to activate
them (if you traded a Hunting Ground with Succubus Club, one of the
Meths involved wouldn't be in their untap phase anyway).


Josh

living like a pig: priceless


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