EC - some "official" thoughts
Carl Pilhatsch
concerns, I would like to give some "official" comments.
First of all, the EC is a sanctioned VEKN event, and therefore all the
VEKN tournament rules have to be applied. I'm sure that the Prince of
Paris is well aware of that, and his team will be able to deal with
anything within the boundaries of the VEKN rules.
An EC is a very important tournament, and naturally, players from
multiple countries with different languages will attend. At an EC
English has to be the official language at tables. It's important that
all players can participate in everything that is discussed at the
table.
In the case that there are players who are not very adapt at English,
it is a wise move to have several translators, perhaps even acting as
playing judges who can be consulted if language problems arise. I'm
also sure that this is already being taken care of by the fine Paris
EC team. ;)
I encourage all players to go to Paris if they can and take part in
this great event. I myself will attend the event and I'm looking
forward to meet all the fine players of Europe.
Carl Pilhatsch
(VEKN membership director)
Andrew S. Davidson
>First of all, the EC is a sanctioned VEKN event, and therefore all the
>VEKN tournament rules have to be applied. I'm sure that the Prince of
>Paris is well aware of that, and his team will be able to deal with
>anything within the boundaries of the VEKN rules.
Remember the fuss about the admissability of SW cards at the last EC
in Vienna. That was against the written VEKN rules of the time but
you guys were right to go beyond them (and I said so). This Viennese
carping about the French is hypocritical. It's also wrong.
In this case, collusion calls are a judgement call for the Head Judge
who must necessarily act in a subjective and high-handed manner.
Personally, I would regard agreeing to roll over to another player on
turn 1 to be prima-facie evidence of both collusion and
unsportsmanlike behaviour. Actually acting in this way would be
enough to earn penalties. This is fully in accordance with written
VEKN rules. The interpretation of the rules by such other judges as
Robert Goudie and LSJ is irrelevant unless they are going to be
judging this event. If they are not, they would do well to keep quiet
and let the poor chap get on with it.
Andrew
James Coupe
s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
>The interpretation of the rules by such other judges as
>Robert Goudie and LSJ is irrelevant unless they are going to be
>judging this event.
The statements of the Official Net Rep and Rules Authority are hardly
"irrelevant".
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1F
HEY, MOM! I FOUND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET B457CA213D7E6
YOU WERE TELLING ME TO NOT TALK TO! 68C3695D623D5D
SF
> In the case that there are players who are not very adapt at English,
> it is a wise move to have several translators, perhaps even acting as
> playing judges who can be consulted if language problems arise. I'm
> also sure that this is already being taken care of by the fine Paris
> EC team. ;)
>
>
> (VEKN membership director)
i am very surprised to hear that the membership director proposes playing
judges at an event that has most likely more than 20 players, which would
brake vekn rules.
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3B6843EF...@white-wolf.com...
>
> The only way to have playing judges is by using the multi-judge system,
which
> cannot be used if more than 20 players are playing. I hope that the EC has
> more than 20 players.
stefan
Carl Pilhatsch
Nothing prohibits you from doing more then the required minimum. I.e.
if there are more than 20 players, you need a non-playing judge. That
doesn't mean there can be *additional* playing or non-playing judges.
Big tournaments *need* to have large staff for all eventualities...
Carl
hamdamcwa
> if there are more than 20 players, you need a non-playing judge. That
> doesn't mean there can be *additional* playing or non-playing judges.
> Big tournaments *need* to have large staff for all eventualities...
What do you qualify as a "Big" tourney? Is 20 people "Big", or is that
standard? Do you need a judge for a set number of people (i.e. 20
people = 1 judge, 30 = 2 judges, 40 = 3 judges, etc) or can 1 judge
suffice?
I only ask coz I am thinking for our UK Gencon.
I know there are a lot of variables (depends on the quality of the
Judges... and of the players, depends on the table layout - if all the
players are quite closely grouped, then the judge can cover the area
easily. If they are spread out it is harder, etc), but what is the
best recommendation?
DH
Stefan Ferenci
LSJ seems to see this different. i proposed in addition to the head
judge to have playing judges from different countries, and he told me
that this is not possible who is right ?!?
Carl Pilhatsch
> > if there are more than 20 players, you need a non-playing judge. That
> > doesn't mean there can be *additional* playing or non-playing judges.
Should read: That doesn't mean there *can't* be *additional* playing
or non-playing judges.
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
> > Big tournaments *need* to have large staff for all eventualities...
> >
> > Carl
>
>
> LSJ seems to see this different. i proposed in addition to the head
> judge to have playing judges from different countries, and he told me
> that this is not possible who is right ?!?
No, he doesn't. If you want to use playing-judges *only* you can only
do this in tournaments with 20 players or less.
There is no rule against the *maximum* number of judges in a
tournament anywhere in the VEKN rules.
To make things clear: the EC 2000 used a head judge with 2 additional
non-playing judges, along with 3 playing judges from different
countries. I.e. all requirements were met, so please refrain from
stating that the EC 2000 was not played according to VEKN tournament
rules.
Also, I have to point out at this point that Stefan has *not* been in
the organisational team for any EC so far, and does *not* officially
represent the Austrian players.
I apologise for any ill feelings that Stefan may have stirred in our
French brethren.
Carl
Carl Pilhatsch
> standard? Do you need a judge for a set number of people (i.e. 20
> people = 1 judge, 30 = 2 judges, 40 = 3 judges, etc) or can 1 judge
> suffice?
I qualify any event with more than 40 players as "Big". Experienced
judges can handle events with up to 40 players quite easily, as I have
seen. They are well advised to have additional judges at hand, because
they cannot be everywhere at the same time. Final authority, as
always, is the head judge.
>
> I only ask coz I am thinking for our UK Gencon.
>
> I know there are a lot of variables (depends on the quality of the
> Judges... and of the players, depends on the table layout - if all the
> players are quite closely grouped, then the judge can cover the area
> easily. If they are spread out it is harder, etc), but what is the
> best recommendation?
>
> DH
Events with a large number of participants need a team of judges.
Otherwise players could argue that they get extra playing time because
they had to wait too long for the judge.
A good method would be to have a set number of non-playing judges
(e.g. 3) and additional playing-judges that can assist in times of
need (also 3 perhaps).
If you know for sure that there will be a large portion of players
that is not well versed in English, it might be a good idea to assign
a player who speaks there language well (best: one of that players)
prior to the event as playing-judge/translator. This has been done at
both ECs so far (for players from Eastern Europe), and it worked out
great. This gives foreign players the feeling that they are not an
inherent disadvantage, and on an international level this is really
important.
Hope this helps a bit.
Carl
LSJ
news:e7883b0c.01080...@posting.google.com...
> A good method would be to have a set number of non-playing judges
> (e.g. 3) and additional playing-judges that can assist in times of
> need (also 3 perhaps).
Judges cannot play in V:EKN-sanctioned tournaments by explicit
V:EKN rules unless the multi-judge system is used.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
SF
From: Carl Pilhatsch <carl.pi...@chello.at>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: EC - some "official" thoughts
> >
> >
> > LSJ seems to see this different. i proposed in addition to the head
> > judge to have playing judges from different countries, and he told me
> > that this is not possible who is right ?!?
>
> No, he doesn't. If you want to use playing-judges *only* you can only
> do this in tournaments with 20 players or less.
Judges cannot play in V:EKN-sanctioned tournaments by explicit
V:EKN rules unless the multi-judge system is used.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
The only way to have playing judges is by using the multi-judge system,
which
cannot be used if more than 20 players are playing. I hope that the EC has
more than 20 players.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> There is no rule against the *maximum* number of judges in a
> tournament anywhere in the VEKN rules.
> To make things clear: the EC 2000 used a head judge with 2 additional
> non-playing judges, along with 3 playing judges from different
> countries. I.e. all requirements were met, so please refrain from
> stating that the EC 2000 was not played according to VEKN tournament
> rules.
>
According to LSJ the ec2000 wasn´t and he asked me if i want to make an
official complaint. i find it rather embarrasing that a member of the vekn
board seems to have no knowledge of the vekn rules. if LSJ is right about
what he wrote than i am right that the EC in vienna was not held according
to vekn rules.
> Also, I have to point out at this point that Stefan has *not* been in
> the organisational team for any EC so far, and does *not* officially
> represent the Austrian players.
>
i never claimed to have been on the organisational team for the ec nor to
have represented the austrian players at any time. i am just a player
voicing concerns.
> I apologise for any ill feelings that Stefan may have stirred in our
> French brethren.
>
why would you have the right to apologize for me. you are in no way related
to me nor do you represent me (nor does anyone except me and you are not
even the prince of vienna; remember you were kicked out due to your
incompetence when you were chairman of the vienniese vtes players league).
by the way in private during our weekly games in vienna you were the one
who expressed his fears about the EC in Paris, and it was you who
braveheartly said he would go to paris to oversee that the ec would be held
according to vekn rules (which you are not even familiar with as it turns
out), that english would be the table language and that if anything would be
wrong, you would personally care for that never ever an ec would be held in
paris. but beeing the person you are, as usually, you are not man enough to
speak up about your views but instead, as usually, you are only man enough
to insult and talk about other people (in this case beeing the french ec
organisational team; i am not going to repeat the words you used talking
about them) behind their backs. i know you are going to call me a liar ( i
couldn´t care less about that) and a lot of people won´t believe me, but i
hope when people get to know you, they will remember my words, see trough
your disguise and detect the real Carl Pilhatsch.
Stefan
> Carl
Halcyan 2
>> French brethren.
>>
>why would you have the right to apologize for me. you are in no way related
>to me nor do you represent me (nor does anyone except me and you are not
>even the prince of vienna; remember you were kicked out due to your
>incompetence when you were chairman of the vienniese vtes players league).
>by the way in private during our weekly games in vienna you were the one
>who expressed his fears about the EC in Paris, and it was you who
>braveheartly said he would go to paris to oversee that the ec would be held
>according to vekn rules (which you are not even familiar with as it turns
>out), that english would be the table language and that if anything would be
>wrong, you would personally care for that never ever an ec would be held in
>paris. but beeing the person you are, as usually, you are not man enough to
>speak up about your views but instead, as usually, you are only man enough
>to insult and talk about other people (in this case beeing the french ec
>organisational team; i am not going to repeat the words you used talking
>about them) behind their backs. i know you are going to call me a liar ( i
>couldn´t care less about that) and a lot of people won´t believe me, but i
>hope when people get to know you, they will remember my words, see trough
>your disguise and detect the real Carl Pilhatsch.
>
>Stefan
Um...maybe it's time for a change in topic? =)
Halcyan 2
SF
>
> If you know for sure that there will be a large portion of players
> that is not well versed in English, it might be a good idea to assign
> a player who speaks there language well (best: one of that players)
> prior to the event as playing-judge/translator. This has been done at
> both ECs so far (for players from Eastern Europe), and it worked out
> great. This gives foreign players the feeling that they are not an
> inherent disadvantage, and on an international level this is really
> important.
>
that violate vekn rules carls?
Stefan
dr.jest
i can only back up stefan here. i remember quite well how carl
pilhatsch talked about the incompetence of the french to organize the
ec and that he would do anything to prevent that and when the ec was
awarded to paris he told all of us that he would personally oversee
the the french won´t brake the rules because he expects them to do so
and also prevent the collusion between the french players that is so
common. wan... and other insults were reguarlly used when speaking
about the french players. an absolutly inapropriate behavior by the
membership director.maybe it is time for an justicar retribution?
dr jest
Roger Carhult
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl Pilhatsch <carl.pi...@chello.at>
> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:06 AM
> Subject: Re: EC - some "official" thoughts
<snip>
> > > I apologise for any ill feelings that Stefan may have stirred in our
> > > French brethren.
> > >
> > why would you have the right to apologize for me. you are in no way related
> > to me nor do you represent me (nor does anyone except me and you are not
> > even the prince of vienna; remember you were kicked out due to your
> > incompetence when you were chairman of the vienniese vtes players league).
> > by the way in private during our weekly games in vienna you were the one
> > who expressed his fears about the EC in Paris, and it was you who
> > braveheartly said he would go to paris to oversee that the ec would be held
> > according to vekn rules (which you are not even familiar with as it turns
> > out), that english would be the table language and that if anything would be
> > wrong, you would personally care for that never ever an ec would be held in
> > paris. but beeing the person you are, as usually, you are not man enough to
> > speak up about your views but instead, as usually, you are only man enough
> > to insult and talk about other people (in this case beeing the french ec
> > organisational team; i am not going to repeat the words you used talking
> > about them) behind their backs. i know you are going to call me a liar ( i
> > couldn´t care less about that) and a lot of people won´t believe me, but i
> > hope when people get to know you, they will remember my words, see trough
> > your disguise and detect the real Carl Pilhatsch.
>
> Stefan
>
> hi,
> i can only back up stefan here. i remember quite well how carl
> pilhatsch talked about the incompetence of the french to organize the
> ec and that he would do anything to prevent that and when the ec was
> awarded to paris he told all of us that he would personally oversee
> the the french won´t brake the rules because he expects them to do so
> and also prevent the collusion between the french players that is so
> common. wan... and other insults were reguarlly used when speaking
> about the french players. an absolutly inapropriate behavior by the
> membership director.maybe it is time for an justicar retribution?
>
> dr jest
Not going into the actual flamewar going on here, but I note that dr
jest's style of writing looks exactly like Stefan's/SF's....hmmm!
Please keep personal vendettas out of this forum.
Roger