Rulings Review

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L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/6/97
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From the Rules Team:

Modifying/Reacting from Torpor:
Vampires in torpor cannot play reaction cards. They can play action
modifiers if and only if they are taking an action in torpor, e.g.,
rescuing themselves, or Rapid Healing.

Goth Band:
Counters moved by the Goth Band assume the function of the
counters normally used by the new card. For example, counters
moved from Vicissitude Poisoning to a Short-Term Contract could
be converted into pool.

Reversals from my guesses:

> >>Blood Brother Ambush - Action Modifier/Ally
> >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> Yes. No. (*)

Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)

> >>Code of Milan Suspended
> >>If this vote is successful, the Methuselah with the Edge burns 1 pool.
> >Is the target chosen at the start of the referendum, of at the end (a la
> >Domain Challenge)? That is, if the Meth with the Edge burns the Edge for
> >a vote during the referendum, will she lose one pool is the referendum is
> >successful?
> At the start. Allowing the victim to opportunity to burn the Edge to
> avoid the entire effects of this vote is not sensical.

It is sensical, it's just not very good. "Methuselah with the Edge" is
not determined until the vote is successful.

> >>Detection
> Also, attach the usual errata about control to make that (D) action
> part make sense (akin to Shackles, Temptation, etc.)

Detection is a master card, so doesn't require controller-errata.
The (D) action is directed against the Meth who played Detection.

> >>Legacy of Caine
> >>Put this card on a vampire with a capacity above 6 controlled by another
> >>Methuselah. When the vampire with this card hunts, he or she steals 1
> >>blood
> >>from another vampire as a (D) action instead of performing the usual
> >>hunting action.
> >Can he steal 1 blood from a vampire in Torpor?

No. Legacy of Caine can't steal blood from a vampire in torpor any more
than Cryptic Mission can burn blood from a vampire in torpor.

> >>Propaganda
> >>(D) Bleed with +1 bleed. Vampires with titles cannot block this action.
> >>* As above, and the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of his or her
> >>ready minions.
> >Can the target choose to tap one of her tapped minions (to no effect)?
> No. (errata)

As with Code of Milan, the superior ability simply isn't as exciting as
it might be. The Methuselah is free to choose a tapped minion.

----
Some of my other rulings are still being discussed, and may be
overturned
in the future.

--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Ryan Anderson

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Mar 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/9/97
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On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> From the Rules Team:


> > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> > Yes. No. (*)
>
> Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)

Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?


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Richard D. Zopf

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Mar 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/10/97
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Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:

>On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

>> From the Rules Team:
>> > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
>> > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
>> > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
>> > Yes. No. (*)
>>
>> Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)

>Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?

Moot question...as combat doesn't occur when a vampire attempting to
leave torpor is blocked...


Regards,
R. David Zopf
guenh...@mindspring.com
"Chemist?!? Bah...there's more art to it than that...I weave
atoms, churl!!!"


Ryan Anderson

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Mar 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/10/97
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Richard D. Zopf wrote:

> Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:
> >> From the Rules Team:
> >> > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> >> > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> >> > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> >> > Yes. No. (*)
> >>
> >> Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)
> >Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?
>
> Moot question...as combat doesn't occur when a vampire attempting to
> leave torpor is blocked...
>

Not when Blood Brother Ambush is considered. (Creates a minion to do
combat with the blocker.) By the above rulings, it can be used by a vamp
in torpor attempting to leave, and the vampire may still be diablerized.
Just when this occurs is a big question.. If it's before combat, the
resulting blood hunt may make the combat pointless, and if it's after,
well, that's simpler, but it's still important to ask..

Richard D. Zopf

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
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Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Richard D. Zopf wrote:

>> Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:
>> >> From the Rules Team:
>> >> > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
>> >> > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
>> >> > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
>> >> > Yes. No. (*)
>> >>
>> >> Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)
>> >Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?
>>
>> Moot question...as combat doesn't occur when a vampire attempting to
>> leave torpor is blocked...
>>

>Not when Blood Brother Ambush is considered. (Creates a minion to do
>combat with the blocker.) By the above rulings, it can be used by a vamp
>in torpor attempting to leave, and the vampire may still be diablerized.
>Just when this occurs is a big question.. If it's before combat, the
>resulting blood hunt may make the combat pointless, and if it's after,
>well, that's simpler, but it's still important to ask..

Ahh...your question is clear to me, now...while I'm hardly one to
establish rulings, and this'll likely require LSJ's word, the trend in
rulings on timing in the past have centered around avoiding Magic: the
Cash Cow type timing issues, and have tried to get rid of "sub-phase"
type incidents where a combat would need to be resolved before the
result of blocking is established. In this light, I'd say that
diablerie should be before combat with the Brothers. This would
necessitate that the acting Brujah play the Brothers after the block
is declared, but before the decision whether to commit diablerie or
not is announced.

J. Andrew Lipscomb

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Mar 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/11/97
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In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970309151946.7080C-100000@ece>, Ryan Anderson
<rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> > From the Rules Team:
> > > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> > > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> > > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> > > Yes. No. (*)
> >
> > Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)
>
> Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?

Neither--it occurs instead of combat.

J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
PGP keys by request

L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
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In article <5g4r8h$v...@camel2.mindspring.com>,

guenh...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:
> >On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Richard D. Zopf wrote:
> >> Ryan Anderson <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:
> >> >> From the Rules Team:
> >> >> > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> >> >> > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> >> >> > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> >> >> > Yes. No. (*)
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)
> >> >Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?
> >>
> >> Moot question...as combat doesn't occur when a vampire attempting to
> >> leave torpor is blocked...
>
> >Not when Blood Brother Ambush is considered. (Creates a minion to do
> >combat with the blocker.) By the above rulings, it can be used by a vamp
> >in torpor attempting to leave, and the vampire may still be diablerized.
> >Just when this occurs is a big question.. If it's before combat, the
> >resulting blood hunt may make the combat pointless, and if it's after,
> >well, that's simpler, but it's still important to ask..
>
> Ahh...your question is clear to me, now...while I'm hardly one to
> establish rulings, and this'll likely require LSJ's word, the trend in
> rulings on timing in the past have centered around avoiding Magic: the
> Cash Cow type timing issues, and have tried to get rid of "sub-phase"
> type incidents where a combat would need to be resolved before the
> result of blocking is established. In this light, I'd say that
> diablerie should be before combat with the Brothers. This would
> necessitate that the acting Brujah play the Brothers after the block
> is declared, but before the decision whether to commit diablerie or
> not is announced.

This is by no means clear, which was why my initial guess at the
answer leaned toward the parallel with Change of Target. But, given
the current ruling, let's try to straighten this thing out, with
as much description of the whys and therefores as possible, so that
no one gets tripped up on this thing in the future:

This is my understanding: that combat occurs immediately when the
card (BBA) is played (*).

My reasoning: All VtES cards resolve when played - they don't queue
up and wait for the right time. So, as soon as the action is
blocked, the acting Brujah in Torpor can play BBA to havethe blocker
"not enter combat with him" (which he wouldn't do anyhowby the
special rules on blocking a vampire in torpor) and enter combat with
this new ally, the BBA.

When that combat is finished (and therefore, the effects of the BBA
card are completely resolved), then things continue as normal - that
is, the blocker gets the option to diablerize the acting Brujah
(since the action is not canceled in this instance). So the action
completes (with the blocker getting the opportunity to commit
diablerie per the rules).

Caveat: only ready vampires can commit diablerie, so if the blocker
winds up in Torpor from the combat with the BBA, the diablerie option
is forfeit. (*)

Ryan Anderson

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
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On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, J. Andrew Lipscomb wrote:

> In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970309151946.7080C-100000@ece>, Ryan Anderson
> <rand...@ece.eng.wayne.edu> wrote:


>
> > On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > From the Rules Team:
> > > > >Can a Brujah Antitribu use this card if blocked while attempting to leave
> > > > >torpor? If so, will the blocker still have the option of diablerizing
> > > > >the acting vampire? (A 'no' to either will require official errata)
> > > > Yes. No. (*)
> > >
> > > Yes, and yes. (BBA doesn't cancel the action)
> >
> > Diablerie occurs before or after the combat?
>

> Neither--it occurs instead of combat.
>

Blood Brother Ambush is created *FOR* a combat.

L. Scott Johnson

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Apr 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/10/97
to

>Reversals from my guesses:
> [...]

>> >>Legacy of Caine
>> >>Put this card on a vampire with a capacity above 6 controlled by another
>> >>Methuselah. When the vampire with this card hunts, he or she steals 1
>> >>blood
>> >>from another vampire as a (D) action instead of performing the usual
>> >>hunting action.
>> >Can he steal 1 blood from a vampire in Torpor?

>No. Legacy of Caine can't steal blood from a vampire in torpor any more
>than Cryptic Mission can burn blood from a vampire in torpor.

From the Rules Team:

Reversal:

Since neither Legacy of Cain's hunt action nor Cryptic Mission restrict
themselves to "ready" vampires, both can be used against vampires in
torpor (as usual for effects that target vampires).

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