Infernal Familiar Q's:

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Roger Carhult

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Jan 13, 2002, 10:42:20 PM1/13/02
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Infernal Familiar [Sabbat]
Cardtype: Retainer

Cost: 2 blood

Discipline: Thaumaturgy

[Demon] with 2 life.
The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline he
or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that Discipline;
if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the Infernal Familiar.
If the number of investment counters on the Familiar is greater than his
controller's capacity, burn the controlling vampire.


1) If I use the IF (Inferanl Familiar) in combat for a strike card and it
makes my vampire burn, does the combat end immediately and no damage is
dealt on opposing vmapire? What if I use the IF to prevent with a
preventioncard before my opponent prevents any damage and I burn, will
opponent have to prevent or take damage, or is combat ended before that?

2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card through
his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?

3) If a minion has 2 IF's and it plays a card through their ability, does
both IF's receive counters or just one of them (if so, which?)

4) A vamp with IF and one counter away from burning and no NEC uses Amaranth
in Combat and wants to play Soul Stealing, can he wait to play it until
after he receives a skillcard form the Amaranth (and thus increases in
capacity) or does he have to play the SS before and thus burn due to IF?

5) If Talaq the Immortal recruits IF, does it get counters each time he uses
THA afterwards? :-)

6) What happens if an IF with counters is moved to an ally? I assume nothing
changes, the counters are still in place but has no effect?

I notice the IF is a typed as Demon now...cool :)


GreySeer

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Jan 13, 2002, 11:15:34 PM1/13/02
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"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:a1tk58$sn2a3$3...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...

> Infernal Familiar [Sabbat]
> Cardtype: Retainer
>
> Cost: 2 blood
>
> Discipline: Thaumaturgy
>
> [Demon] with 2 life.
> The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline
he
> or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that
Discipline;
> if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the Infernal
Familiar.
> If the number of investment counters on the Familiar is greater than his
> controller's capacity, burn the controlling vampire.
>
>
> 1) If I use the IF (Inferanl Familiar) in combat for a strike card and it
> makes my vampire burn, does the combat end immediately and no damage is
> dealt on opposing vmapire? What if I use the IF to prevent with a
> preventioncard before my opponent prevents any damage and I burn, will
> opponent have to prevent or take damage, or is combat ended before that?

If combat ends before strike resolution the opposing minion will take no
damage. As soon as one of the minions involved in combat ceases to be ready
( like by being burned by an IF ) combat ends immediately, so the answer to
your first question is yes. Second question is a bit more tricky, I would
think that combat will end but the opposing minion will be able to prevent.

> 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card through
> his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?

Strictly speaking yes, but I think there needs to be a ruling that says that
you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the counter.

> 3) If a minion has 2 IF's and it plays a card through their ability, does
> both IF's receive counters or just one of them (if so, which?)

Not sure why you'd have 2 but still, as far as the existing card text goes
you'd get one on each, again, the same ruling above, if made would allow you
to choose which one to use and hence which one would get the counter.

> 4) A vamp with IF and one counter away from burning and no NEC uses
Amaranth
> in Combat and wants to play Soul Stealing, can he wait to play it until
> after he receives a skillcard form the Amaranth (and thus increases in
> capacity) or does he have to play the SS before and thus burn due to IF?

All the effects of Amaranth ( including the benefits of diablerie ) occur
before you play Soul Stealing so you can get your skill card before you play
SS.

> 5) If Talaq the Immortal recruits IF, does it get counters each time he
uses
> THA afterwards? :-)

Talaq cannot use IF "The vampire with this retainer..." Talaq is not a
vampire.

> 6) What happens if an IF with counters is moved to an ally? I assume
nothing
> changes, the counters are still in place but has no effect?

The counters remain but they have no effect, an ally has life and does not
have capacity.

Roger Carhult

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Jan 14, 2002, 6:45:06 AM1/14/02
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Will be able to prevent? Do you mean that he takes damage if he doesn't
prevent, or that he doesn't take any damage but he can prevent to cycle
cards if he wants to? (wouldn't that be an illegal play of prevention
cards?)

> > 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card
through
> > his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?
>
> Strictly speaking yes, but I think there needs to be a ruling that says
that
> you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the counter.

I think so too. However you should then be able to say that you play Obeah
through the IF and not Ian's ability if you wanted to.

> > 3) If a minion has 2 IF's and it plays a card through their ability,
does
> > both IF's receive counters or just one of them (if so, which?)
>
> Not sure why you'd have 2 but still, as far as the existing card text goes
> you'd get one on each, again, the same ruling above, if made would allow
you
> to choose which one to use and hence which one would get the counter.

There's a couple of reasons cases where you'd end up with 2 IF's on a
vampire, usually if you have a Castle Heidelberg in play. Say you have
Muaziz out, she can to the recruits with +2 stealth and then you transfer
them via Heidelberg to another vamp. But then before you do that you need to
use the Heidelberg for other purposes, leaving her with 2 IF's for a while.
Or you could WANT to have 2 or more IF's on a vamp to get manyt counters on
it, until you Mind Rape some vamps and transfer it to them to burn them.


GreySeer

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Jan 14, 2002, 10:37:25 AM1/14/02
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"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:a1ugeg$svo41$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...

Now that I think about it, if you are burned by IF whilst playing prevention
your opponent still resolves his damage prevention and resolution. If you
are burned by an opposing minion in combat ( by, say agg damage ) he still
has to take or prevent your damage, being burned by IF would be any
different. Damage prevention and resolution is simoultaneous for the two
minions involved in combat ( unless one has First Strike of course ).

> > > 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card
through
> > > his specialty, does the IF receive a counter? Strictly speaking yes,
but I think there needs to be a ruling that says that
> > > you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the
counter.
>
> I think so too. However you should then be able to say that you play Obeah
> through the IF and not Ian's ability if you wanted to.

Of course. Basically, if I were a Judge I think it would be common sense to
rule that you can choose through what means you are playing the card and
suffer whatever the consequences of doing so are.

> > > 3) If a minion has 2 IF's and it plays a card through their ability,
does
> > > both IF's receive counters or just one of them (if so, which?)
> >
> > Not sure why you'd have 2 but still, as far as the existing card text
goes
> > you'd get one on each, again, the same ruling above, if made would allow
you
> > to choose which one to use and hence which one would get the counter.
>
> There's a couple of reasons cases where you'd end up with 2 IF's on a
> vampire, usually if you have a Castle Heidelberg in play. Say you have
> Muaziz out, she can to the recruits with +2 stealth and then you transfer
> them via Heidelberg to another vamp. But then before you do that you need
to
> use the Heidelberg for other purposes, leaving her with 2 IF's for a
while.
> Or you could WANT to have 2 or more IF's on a vamp to get manyt counters
on
> it, until you Mind Rape some vamps and transfer it to them to burn them.

Heh, you have an evil mind like mine :) I love playing Settites and
borrowing and stealing peoples stuff. I even use the ones with DOM so I can
play Mind Rape and Kine Dominance. Nope, no PRE/OBF bleed over here, no sir,
it's SER/OBF for me thanks.


LSJ

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Jan 14, 2002, 5:48:56 PM1/14/02
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GreySeer wrote:
> "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
> > Infernal Familiar [Sabbat]

> > 1) If I use the IF (Inferanl Familiar) in combat for a strike card and it
> > makes my vampire burn, does the combat end immediately and no damage is
> > dealt on opposing vmapire? What if I use the IF to prevent with a
> > preventioncard before my opponent prevents any damage and I burn, will
> > opponent have to prevent or take damage, or is combat ended before that?
>
> If combat ends before strike resolution the opposing minion will take no
> damage. As soon as one of the minions involved in combat ceases to be ready
> ( like by being burned by an IF ) combat ends immediately, so the answer to
> your first question is yes. Second question is a bit more tricky, I would
> think that combat will end but the opposing minion will be able to prevent.

Correct. The damage is already inflicted on both minions by the time either
one gets around to preventing.

> > 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card through
> > his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?
>
> Strictly speaking yes, but I think there needs to be a ruling that says that
> you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the counter.

Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian ever employ an Infernal Familiar?



> > 3) If a minion has 2 IF's and it plays a card through their ability, does
> > both IF's receive counters or just one of them (if so, which?)
>
> Not sure why you'd have 2 but still, as far as the existing card text goes
> you'd get one on each, again, the same ruling above, if made would allow you
> to choose which one to use and hence which one would get the counter.

Right again.



> > 4) A vamp with IF and one counter away from burning and no NEC uses
> Amaranth
> > in Combat and wants to play Soul Stealing, can he wait to play it until
> > after he receives a skillcard form the Amaranth (and thus increases in
> > capacity) or does he have to play the SS before and thus burn due to IF?
>
> All the effects of Amaranth ( including the benefits of diablerie ) occur
> before you play Soul Stealing so you can get your skill card before you play
> SS.

Correct.



> > 5) If Talaq the Immortal recruits IF, does it get counters each time he
> uses
> > THA afterwards? :-)
>
> Talaq cannot use IF "The vampire with this retainer..." Talaq is not a
> vampire.

Correct.



> > 6) What happens if an IF with counters is moved to an ally? I assume
> nothing
> > changes, the counters are still in place but has no effect?
>
> The counters remain but they have no effect, an ally has life and does not
> have capacity.

Very difficult to move an retainer to an ally, but the answer is correct.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

X_Zealot

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Jan 14, 2002, 6:06:22 PM1/14/02
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> Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian ever
employ an Infernal Familiar?
>

Lazerus, who has an infernal familiar with 7 counters on it, mind rapes at
superior Ian Forestal and Hiedleburg's the infernal familiar onto Ian
Forestal.

How's about that?

Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

LSJ

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Jan 14, 2002, 6:18:50 PM1/14/02
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X_Zealot wrote:
>
> > Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian ever
> employ an Infernal Familiar?
> >
>
> Lazerus, who has an infernal familiar with 7 counters on it, mind rapes at
> superior Ian Forestal and Hiedleburg's the infernal familiar onto Ian
> Forestal.
>
> How's about that?

Not quite "pressing" :-)

Roger Carhult

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Jan 14, 2002, 8:23:24 PM1/14/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C43675A...@white-wolf.com...

> X_Zealot wrote:
> >
> > > Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian
ever
> > employ an Infernal Familiar?
> > >
> >
> > Lazerus, who has an infernal familiar with 7 counters on it, mind rapes
at
> > superior Ian Forestal and Hiedleburg's the infernal familiar onto Ian
> > Forestal.
> >
> > How's about that?
>
> Not quite "pressing" :-)

Well add a few more examples and I think it is :P

1) You have only smaller vamps with inferior dominate and Ian. You also have
a Heidelberg. You want Ian to do the action so he can use Seduction at
superior to stop that prince from trying to block with 2nd Trad. Before you
get to transfer IF to another vamp he uses some disciplines through his
ability. It would really not be good if there was counters put on the IF,
since the IF is to be transferred to smaller vamps later and if it's
transferred to a 4 cap vamp with 2 counters on it already there's not much
of a point...

2) You have some vamps plus Ian and a Heidelberg. Ian is currently the only
one that has enough of blood to do it without being real low on blood
afterwards (smething you might want to avoid).

3) Same as above but you're jammed on out of clan discipline cards and if
Ian blocked he can at least cycle some of those, while the others can't.

4) At the time you did the recruit IF action, Ian was the only vamp you had
ready, and you did it to cycle the card.

5) Your deck is built around a strategy where you WANT to get counters on
the IF and then give it to a Mind Raped vamp. When doing so you want to
transfer all blood from the Midn Raped vamp to Ian, because he's the vamp of
your minions that currently needs to be filled up. So if if you have the IF
on Kij Dansky you can't tap Heidelberg to tranfer the IF from her to the
Mind Raped vamp AND tranfser that vamp's blood unto Ian. Thus when Ian does
his Mind Rape the turn before, you tap Heidelberg to transfer the IF to Ian
so that you can Transfer it again to the Mind Raped vampire the following
turn AND refill Ian all in one. The IF has alrady a lot of counters on it,
and Ian now has to have the IF for a whole turn before the Mind Rape kicks
in. It can be very important to be able to play with disciplines through
Ian's special ability meanwhile, and not risking to get him burnst in the
process...

I've given 5 perfectly viable examples where Ian ends up with an IF
(happened me several times when I played my !Tremere/Salubri-IF deck in
Christmas) plus the one given by X_Zealot, are more xamples really needed?
If so, I can give you some examples of when erratas has been made where it's
been a lot less needed than it is in this case.

Also, I wonder, if you have 2 IF's on one minion, are you allowed to put a
counter on both when playing _one_ card through an IF? Can you choose to put
counters on just one, but also on both?

Roger


Halcyan 2

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Jan 14, 2002, 10:41:33 PM1/14/02
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>> > 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card through
>> > his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?
>>
>> Strictly speaking yes, but I think there needs to be a ruling that says
>that
>> you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the counter.
>
>Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian ever
>employ an Infernal Familiar?

Well, besides Ian, how about the case where a vampire with Infernal Pact gets
an Infernal Familiar. If Heinrick gets an Infernal Pact for say, Temporis, and
plays a Temporis card at inferior, this would trigger the Familiar, right?

Halcyan 2

Roger Carhult

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Jan 14, 2002, 10:48:39 PM1/14/02
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"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020114224133...@mb-ba.aol.com...


Ummm no I don't think so. IIRC Infernal Pact GRANTS the superior chosen,
just like a skillcard does.

Roger


GreySeer

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Jan 15, 2002, 1:35:47 AM1/15/02
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> Also, I wonder, if you have 2 IF's on one minion, are you allowed to put a
> counter on both when playing _one_ card through an IF? Can you choose to
put
> counters on just one, but also on both?

I gather from LSJs post that when you play a card that you don't have a
discipline for you choose through which mechanism you do it. This means that
only one IF gets the counter and if it's, say Ian, you can choose his
ability and get none.


Halcyan 2

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Jan 15, 2002, 1:45:06 AM1/15/02
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>> Well, besides Ian, how about the case where a vampire with Infernal Pact
>gets
>> an Infernal Familiar. If Heinrick gets an Infernal Pact for say, Temporis,
>and
>> plays a Temporis card at inferior, this would trigger the Familiar, right?
>
>
>Ummm no I don't think so. IIRC Infernal Pact GRANTS the superior chosen,
>just like a skillcard does.

Ummmm...no *I* don't think so.

Infernal Pact [Sabbat]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Tremere antitribu
Cost: 1 pool
Unique master.
Put this card on a Tremere antitribu you control. Choose a Discipline. The
vampire with this card can play cards that require that Discipline as though he
or she has the superior version of that Discipline.


Note the "The vampire with this card can play cards that require that
Discipline AS THOUGH he or she has the superior version of that Discipline."
Doesn't actually grant the discipline. Just lets the vampire play cards as if
he or she had it. So if you gave Heinrick an Infernal PAct and chose Fortitude,
he doesn't actually have Fortitude and would still get nailed if he got Kissed
by Ra.

Halcyan 2

Chris Berger

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Jan 15, 2002, 2:02:26 AM1/15/02
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"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:u47jgnd...@news.supernews.com...
Not sure how you gathered that... here's what he said:

> > > 2) What happens if Ian Forestal has an IF and plays an Obeah card
through
> > > his specialty, does the IF receive a counter?
> >
> > Strictly speaking yes, but I think there needs to be a ruling that says
that
> > you have to be using the infernal familiar's ability to get the counter.
>

> Yes. I don't see any pressing need for errata here - why would Ian ever
employ an Infernal Familiar?
>

So, apparently, LSJ is saying that if Ian plays an Obeah card through his
own special, he still gets a counter on IF, although I can't for the life of
me figure out why.

-Chris


Flux

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Jan 15, 2002, 4:58:02 AM1/15/02
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"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in
news:6uQ08.19874$Tq.209138@rwcrnsc54:

Cardtext:

The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline
he or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that
Discipline; >>>>if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the
Infernal Familiar.<<<< If the number of investment counters on the
Familiar is greater than his controller's capacity, burn the controlling
vampire.


The 'if he or she does so' part means 'if he or she plays a card that
requires a Discipline he or she does not have', not just 'if he or she
uses the ability granted by this card'.


Flux

Roger Carhult

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Jan 15, 2002, 8:25:09 AM1/15/02
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> Ummmm...no *I* don't think so.
>
> Infernal Pact [Sabbat]
> Cardtype: Master
> Clan: Tremere antitribu
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique master.
> Put this card on a Tremere antitribu you control. Choose a Discipline. The
> vampire with this card can play cards that require that Discipline as
though he
> or she has the superior version of that Discipline.
>
>
> Note the "The vampire with this card can play cards that require that
> Discipline AS THOUGH he or she has the superior version of that
Discipline."
> Doesn't actually grant the discipline. Just lets the vampire play cards as
if
> he or she had it. So if you gave Heinrick an Infernal PAct and chose
Fortitude,
> he doesn't actually have Fortitude and would still get nailed if he got
Kissed
> by Ra.

Oh hmm I rememeber the card text wrong apparently :-)

Roger


Roger Carhult

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Jan 15, 2002, 8:26:17 AM1/15/02
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> Cardtext:
>
> The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline
> he or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that
> Discipline; >>>>if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the
> Infernal Familiar.<<<< If the number of investment counters on the
> Familiar is greater than his controller's capacity, burn the controlling
> vampire.
>
>
> The 'if he or she does so' part means 'if he or she plays a card that
> requires a Discipline he or she does not have', not just 'if he or she
> uses the ability granted by this card'.


LSJ could you please clarify what you meant?

Roger


LSJ

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Jan 15, 2002, 8:59:34 AM1/15/02
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Not any more than Flux (quoted above) did, no.

Chris Berger

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Jan 15, 2002, 12:05:50 PM1/15/02
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"Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message
news:Xns9197657165...@130.133.1.4...

> "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in
> news:6uQ08.19874$Tq.209138@rwcrnsc54:
>
> Cardtext:
>
> The vampire with this retainer can play a card that requires a Discipline
> he or she does not have as if he or she had the basic level of that
> Discipline; >>>>if he or she does so, place an investment counter on the
> Infernal Familiar.<<<< If the number of investment counters on the
> Familiar is greater than his controller's capacity, burn the controlling
> vampire.
>
>
> The 'if he or she does so' part means 'if he or she plays a card that
> requires a Discipline he or she does not have', not just 'if he or she
> uses the ability granted by this card'.
>
I understand where you're coming from, but that has never been the way
things worked before. Frex...

Escaped Mental Patient: Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed. As a (D)
action, Escaped Mental Patient can enter combat with any minion controlled
by another Methuselah. The Patient can strike for strength+1 aggravated
damage. Burn him at the end of combat if he does so.

So, if the Escaped Mental Patient is in combat after blocking a Dawn Op'd
bleed, and he strikes with a Lucky Blow, then he is burned at the end of
combat???

If A vampire plays Internal Recursion at <pre>, and then plays Catatonic
Fear, will he untap (assuming he meets the requirements to untap provided by
Internal Recursion?

If Cailean has a Sniper Rifle and uses his special ability to set range,
does he have to strike with the Sniper Rifle? (This one is not so
ridiculous, and by itself wouldn't really illustrate my point, but the EMP
example is the same thing, and it's pretty silly, no?)

"If he does so" has always been taken to mean, "if he makes use of this
capability", at least around here.

LSJ

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Jan 15, 2002, 12:48:25 PM1/15/02
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Chris Berger wrote:
> I understand where you're coming from, but that has never been the way
> things worked before. Frex...
>
> Escaped Mental Patient: Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed. As a (D)
> action, Escaped Mental Patient can enter combat with any minion controlled
> by another Methuselah. The Patient can strike for strength+1 aggravated
> damage. Burn him at the end of combat if he does so.
>
> So, if the Escaped Mental Patient is in combat after blocking a Dawn Op'd
> bleed, and he strikes with a Lucky Blow, then he is burned at the end of
> combat???

Probably before then (since the opponent who has taken the time to play
Dawn Op probably has some sort of damage-dealing strike to make), but yes.



> If A vampire plays Internal Recursion at <pre>, and then plays Catatonic
> Fear, will he untap (assuming he meets the requirements to untap provided by
> Internal Recursion?

Yes.



> If Cailean has a Sniper Rifle and uses his special ability to set range,
> does he have to strike with the Sniper Rifle? (This one is not so
> ridiculous, and by itself wouldn't really illustrate my point, but the EMP
> example is the same thing, and it's pretty silly, no?)

If he blocked and sets range to long on the first round of the resulting combat,
yes.

Chris Berger

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Jan 15, 2002, 2:07:45 PM1/15/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C446B69...@white-wolf.com...
Wow, no offense, but that's crazy. Luckily it doesn't have much practical
effect on the game, or we might be in the midst of one of those
million-post-long pointless arguments.


LSJ

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Jan 15, 2002, 5:18:40 PM1/15/02
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Chris Berger wrote:
> Wow, no offense, but that's crazy. Luckily it doesn't have much practical
> effect on the game, or we might be in the midst of one of those
> million-post-long pointless arguments.

One man's crazy is another man's card text. :-)

Reyda

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Jan 16, 2002, 10:56:46 AM1/16/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C446B69...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:

> > If A vampire plays Internal Recursion at <pre>, and then plays Catatonic
> > Fear, will he untap (assuming he meets the requirements to untap
provided by
> > Internal Recursion?
>
> Yes.

Sorry, i cannot understand this one...
Iternal recursion has a card text that says

"[pre] This blocking vampire can end combat as a strike during the resulting
combat. If he or she does so and the acting minion is an ally or a younger
vampire, this blocking vampire untaps."

The "untap part" seems linked to ^ending combat with the S:ce provided by
Internal recursion^

So what's up ? are we supposed to become rule lawyers and argue that, since
we played another strike "combat ends" during that combat, our vamp can
untap anyway due to the text from another card ? It sounds a little silly...

Idea : Miller Delmardigan blocks a younger vamp. Plays Internal Recursion.
At close range hit for 2, Blur, hit for 2 and 2. Press. hit for 2, blur, hit
for 2, Riposte. And he untap after that !! because of card text on
infernal recursion.

quite strange ... =/

reyda

Reyda

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Jan 16, 2002, 12:15:16 PM1/16/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C44AAC0...@white-wolf.com...

> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Wow, no offense, but that's crazy. Luckily it doesn't have much
practical
> > effect on the game, or we might be in the midst of one of those
> > million-post-long pointless arguments.
>
> One man's crazy is another man's card text. :-)

mmm... Not so long ago, you answered to my post like this :

-----

(me) > I tap Jacko to play "Monomancy" on Gratiano. The combat begins.
Gratiano
> says "oh, well, i don't want to die after all". And chooses to end combat,
> referring to the text on monomancy, thus losing permanently 1 bleed. Jacko

(rulemonger) "... thus having the Monomancy card placed on him, resulting in
his
having -1 bleed."
-----

Now if Jacko plays Monomancy on Anka Priestess of Thorns, and she plays
Illusion of the kindred to lure Jacko, she is ending combat before range is
chosen *thus getting -1 Bleed* ???

please clarify this =p

reyda

Chris Berger

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Jan 16, 2002, 12:40:18 PM1/16/02
to

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a247u8$ihu$1...@neon.noos.net...

>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3C446B69...@white-wolf.com...
>
> > > If A vampire plays Internal Recursion at <pre>, and then plays
Catatonic
> > > Fear, will he untap (assuming he meets the requirements to untap
> provided by
> > > Internal Recursion?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Sorry, i cannot understand this one...
> Iternal recursion has a card text that says
>
> "[pre] This blocking vampire can end combat as a strike during the
resulting
> combat. If he or she does so and the acting minion is an ally or a younger
> vampire, this blocking vampire untaps."
>
> The "untap part" seems linked to ^ending combat with the S:ce provided by
> Internal recursion^
>
That's the way I've taken cards like this to mean. And I'm sure that if you
do it any other way at a tournament, you will have to get a judge to come
over, because no one will believe you. I haven't been to many Jyhad
tournaments *recently*, so no offense to current judges, but judges don't
always have a perfect grasp of the rules (I've had judges who flat-out
refused to look at the rulings and errata print-out that I had and simply
said, "I know how it works - like this"), and since this is not entered on
the rulings and errata page and probably won't be, you probably have a 50/50
chance of the judge deciding either way. If you intend to exploit this, I
suggest you print out this topic and carry it with you. Otherwise, you're
probably safe assuming that, in tournaments, it will work the way you state
above..

> quite strange ... =/
>
Indeed. Any chance of a reversal on this one, LSJ, or is this set in stone?


LSJ

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Jan 16, 2002, 2:57:30 PM1/16/02
to
Reyda wrote:
> Now if Jacko plays Monomancy on Anka Priestess of Thorns, and she plays
> Illusion of the kindred to lure Jacko, she is ending combat before range is
> chosen *thus getting -1 Bleed* ???

Yes (thus getting Monomancy, which supplies -1 bleed).

LSJ

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Jan 16, 2002, 2:59:07 PM1/16/02
to
Chris Berger wrote:
> Indeed. Any chance of a reversal on this one, LSJ, or is this set in stone?

It takes errata to "reverse" card text.
I'll put it on the RT list.
It doesn't seem to warrant errata, though, no matter how counterintuitive it
is - it just doesn't come up that often.

Chris Berger

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Jan 16, 2002, 3:16:10 PM1/16/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C45DB8B...@white-wolf.com...

> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Indeed. Any chance of a reversal on this one, LSJ, or is this set in
stone?
>
> It takes errata to "reverse" card text.
> I'll put it on the RT list.
> It doesn't seem to warrant errata, though, no matter how counterintuitive
it
> is - it just doesn't come up that often.
>
I really shouldn't, but I can't resist...

One man's "card text" is another man's "blatantly incorrect reading of card
text."

Must... not... get into... another... hundred post... long.... argument...


Roger Carhult

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Jan 17, 2002, 5:52:24 PM1/17/02
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C45DB2A...@white-wolf.com...

> Reyda wrote:
> > Now if Jacko plays Monomancy on Anka Priestess of Thorns, and she plays
> > Illusion of the kindred to lure Jacko, she is ending combat before range
is
> > chosen *thus getting -1 Bleed* ???
>
> Yes (thus getting Monomancy, which supplies -1 bleed).


And with Purchase Pact I assume...? ouch :/

Roger


Roger Carhult

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Jan 17, 2002, 5:53:25 PM1/17/02
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"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:a27kmd$utqic$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...

Hmm ignore that, since it isn't the minion doing the combat ends...


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